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Foundation (TV) Season 1 and 2
I got a new ipad for my birthday, and with that new ipad came three free months of Apple + tv. I wouldn't have subscribed on my own - I really have enough streaming services to justify to my budget - , but three free months, why not, and thus I had the chance to marathon Foundation, a tv series loosely based on Isaac Asimov's novels. It was go created by Josh Friedman by Sarah Connor Chronicles fame, Jane Espenson (from Buffy and BSG) is among the producers and scriptwriters, and Bear McCreary (from BSG and Black Sails) wrote the drop dead gorgeous music. All of which got my attention.
Now I have read the novels, but that was decades ago, literally when I was a teenager, I never reread them (as opposed to many of Asimov's robot stories, which I thus remember much better), and I only remember bits and pieces, not nearly enough to get emotionally invested in which I still could tell had to be massive changes. (For a start, lots more female characters in main roles having agenda and doing the talking than is common in good old Isaac's stories, the glorious Susan Calvin excepted.) This probably made me the ideal audience. All in all, I was impressed and increasingly hooked by the show. It has its bumpy early installment try out hits and misses in the first season, but by the second season you can tell the writers have figured out what works and what still needed improvement and keep on delivering great stuff. (BTW, I would NOT reccommend you start with the second season, though, and not just because I'm a completist by nature. The second season builds on what has happened in the first.) Also, the actors are great. Both the ones I already knew like Lee Pace (who gets to play several variations of a character due to the concept of cloning and has fight scenes in the nude at least once per season) and the ones that were new to me, like Laura Brin who plays Demerzel (aka what happens when the creator of Cameron and Catherine and John Henry from Sarah Connor Chronicles has a go at an Asimov material), or the actress playing Constant in the second season, are just outstanding. Incidentally, two of the main characters in both seasons are black women, and s2 adds two more poc women to the mix; I'm pretty sure Gaal and Salvor, if they existed - I think Gaal did, but I could be misrenembering? - were white men in the books. Go show, say I. Though Gaal's storyline in s1 was after a strong start left meandering and one of those elements in need of improvement, which definitely came in s2, more about this later. Season 2 also offers Ben Daniels, last seen by me as one of the two leads in the tv Exorcist, and he's both badass and gay in his Foundation role as well.
What I did remember from those decades ago was the basic premise both books and tv show share: the concept of "Psychohistory", mathemaqtician Hari Seldon using said craft to predict the Galactic Empire he lives in is about to fall and will be suceeded by 30 000 years or more by bloody chaos unless active measures are taken (including but not limited to the Foundation of the title) that will limit the decline and fall time to a thousand years. There's an obvious Edward Gibbon interpretation of the titular Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire influence here along with with some Byzantium in the way said Empire is depicted, along with questions as to whether or not the future can be changed or is set in stone, the weight of individual choices vs the big picture, the concept of freedom and so forth.
Foundation, the tv series, took the late Roman/Byzantines in Space idea and ran with it, but far more inventively than other space Romans I've watched. Instead of your regular imperial dynasty (which it is in the novels, I think), the "genetic dynasty" in the show always consists of a trio of clones based on its founder, Cleon I., in various stages of his life - Brother Dawn (child and young man up to his early 20), Brother Day (the ruling Emperor in his 30s and 40s, and that's where multiple Lee Pace performances come in, naked or otherwise) and Brother Dusk (50s, 60s, 70s, then he "ascends" i.e. dies and a new baby brother Dawn is "birthed" while the previous Dawn and Day are promoted to Day and Dusk, respectively. This is supposed to ensure there's never a succession conflict and is also a great symbol for the stagnation Seldon diagnoses, because while the various clones of Cleon do have some differences in their personalities (and these are a gift for actors), they raise each other and thus the same type of decisions keep being made. Also raising them, supporting them and being the all important political advisor to boot: Demerzel, the last (to everyone's knowledge, including her own) surviving human-looking robot, who was already millennia of years old when the Genetic dynasty started. (We get some dialogue in both seasons about the millennia ago "Robotic Wars", but no details. Demerzel's personal backstory is revealed in fragments, with the biggest reveal happening in the last but one season episode which recontextualizes a lot of previous events, but there's still a lot more, given her age. (She might be the oldest sentient person in the galaxy at this point, and she's definitely a person.) (If you know your Asiimov Robotic Laws, you'll mutter "but what about..." at certain plot points in s1; s2 does bring them up and addresses what altered for Demerzel re: that.) Demerzel's relationships with the Cleons and theirs with her is intense and screwed up on several levels, and as I said, and the question of free will and programming for both machine and human is very much central to it. As for the imperial clones, of whom we meet various incarnations due to s1 having two time jumps and s2 another one right at the start, they work better as variations of the same basic potential and genetic make-up changed through circumstances into separate personalities than anything I've seen since Orphan Black. (BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to make them a triad at different ages wasn't on a Doylist level also made to ensure no one actor had to do all those scenes because while Tatiana Maslany succeeded gloriously, this is a A LOT of work.) Some are sympathetic, some are despicable, some in between, but you always get where they're coming from - and the sheer deformity which comes by inahabiting the all powerful position of Empire is never ignored.
And those are "just" the show's antagonists.
(The Imperial splendor on Trantor is both where part of the show's budget clearly went and Byzantine-influenced more than by Romans, with the colourful murals being also plot points in both seasons.)
On the heroic side of things, we have Gaal, mathematical prodigy from a deeply science loathing planet, Salvor, of the first generation born Terminus, the planet where Seldon's followers were settling on, who in the first seaosn is the show's stoic action heroine, Salvor's parents who are part of the original exiles, Salvor's boyfriend... and the late, or is he, Hari Seldon, whose theory kicks off the plot. Hari Seldon in the novels as far as I recall dies very early on and thereafter occasionally shows up as a holographic recording. This isn't quite what happens on the show, to put it as unspoilery as possible. He's also a lot more morally ambiguous than the nice old man figure I dimly recalled. Which is guessable from the fact they hired Jared Harris to play him. This casting really pays off in the second season, when the fact there are two versions of Hari around gives Jared Harris more to do than make enigmatic, cryptic remarks and show some hidden desperation in between. (For easier future reading, Hari-in-the-Vault is the smug digital one, and Hari-with-a-new-body the one ending up travelling with Gaal and Salvor in s2. A combination of characters which was great, solving the aimlessness of Gaal's later s1 storyline. I was a bit side eyeing the fact at the end of s1 that Salvor takes off to find the genetic mother she's never known, but the show had made it clear Salvor loved and got along well with the parents who raised her, she was simply curious as to whose memories she kept experiencing through the season. In s2, Gaal finding herself more than a century from her original present with a daughter she didn't know she had and who was a bit older than her made for a fascinating dynamic. S1 had established Gaal going from hero worshipping Hari to questioning him to resenting him for what he did to Reysh and deliberately acting against him because of that, and s2 built on that by giving Hari also a reason to resent and blame Gaal - being trapped conscious as opposed to her in that device for a century has reduced him to a messed up wreck instead of a know-it-all when we meet him again -, while Salvor has already been dissappointed by the Hari-in-the-Vault version and has no reason to trust him at all. Three people with justified issues re: each other being forced to work together and catching feelings for each other while they're at it makes a a great arc through the season.
S2 added Constant and Poly (Poly we've seen as a small boy in s1 and he's an old man in s2), and Constant, a cheerful cleric with an earthy fondness for life and a great sense of humor, is probably my favourite new s2 character, despite fierce competition by Space!Belisarius, err, General Bel Rios, the Ben Daniels character who comes with a husband he loves, Glawen, Queen Sarbeth and her trusty advisor the former courtesan Rue. (Rue has backstory with the current Dusk, Sarbeth has plans for the current Day.) And Hober, a trickster type from the fine tradition of characters claiming to look out only for themselves but finding themselves in the business of hero saving before they know it. The various storylines intersect and influence each other at different points, and where in s1 I thought the Clones-plus-Demerezel plotline worked better than the Foundation characters plot line(s) did, s2 changed that so I never was impatient to get back to palace scheming and power struggling but was rivetted by what everyone else whas doing as well, see above.
Perfect, the show is not. But it has definitely captured me, and I do hope it will get its third season to continue its tale. Both seasons wrap up the stories of their seasons-only characters, and there will of course be another time jump (as indicated by its teaser scene at the very end), but in addition to those characters surviving from season to season due to plot and circumstance (three or four so far, depending on how you count one of them), this is a show where cloning, digital copies and as of s2 body switching are all part of the worldbuilding, so they could potentially bring back other characters as well. Even if not, there hasn't been one the show didn't manage to make interesting for me so far, and I trust that will continue. And it is fantastic to look at, in general, not just Trantor. The "spacers", i.e. genetically manipulated humans needed by the current faster-then-light travelling ships, being a case in point, but also invidual worlds, like the desert world Brother Day and Demerzel visit in s1, or Gaal's watery home planet. (That her people chose to ignore science and let the ruination of the environment continue until the ocean overtook everything is a none too subtle dig at the present, but that water planet still looks great.)
...and did I mention you get Lee Pace doing everything from subtle reactions to scenery chewing with abandonment as various Space!Roman/Byzantine Emperors with no concept of personal space?
Now I have read the novels, but that was decades ago, literally when I was a teenager, I never reread them (as opposed to many of Asimov's robot stories, which I thus remember much better), and I only remember bits and pieces, not nearly enough to get emotionally invested in which I still could tell had to be massive changes. (For a start, lots more female characters in main roles having agenda and doing the talking than is common in good old Isaac's stories, the glorious Susan Calvin excepted.) This probably made me the ideal audience. All in all, I was impressed and increasingly hooked by the show. It has its bumpy early installment try out hits and misses in the first season, but by the second season you can tell the writers have figured out what works and what still needed improvement and keep on delivering great stuff. (BTW, I would NOT reccommend you start with the second season, though, and not just because I'm a completist by nature. The second season builds on what has happened in the first.) Also, the actors are great. Both the ones I already knew like Lee Pace (who gets to play several variations of a character due to the concept of cloning and has fight scenes in the nude at least once per season) and the ones that were new to me, like Laura Brin who plays Demerzel (aka what happens when the creator of Cameron and Catherine and John Henry from Sarah Connor Chronicles has a go at an Asimov material), or the actress playing Constant in the second season, are just outstanding. Incidentally, two of the main characters in both seasons are black women, and s2 adds two more poc women to the mix; I'm pretty sure Gaal and Salvor, if they existed - I think Gaal did, but I could be misrenembering? - were white men in the books. Go show, say I. Though Gaal's storyline in s1 was after a strong start left meandering and one of those elements in need of improvement, which definitely came in s2, more about this later. Season 2 also offers Ben Daniels, last seen by me as one of the two leads in the tv Exorcist, and he's both badass and gay in his Foundation role as well.
What I did remember from those decades ago was the basic premise both books and tv show share: the concept of "Psychohistory", mathemaqtician Hari Seldon using said craft to predict the Galactic Empire he lives in is about to fall and will be suceeded by 30 000 years or more by bloody chaos unless active measures are taken (including but not limited to the Foundation of the title) that will limit the decline and fall time to a thousand years. There's an obvious Edward Gibbon interpretation of the titular Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire influence here along with with some Byzantium in the way said Empire is depicted, along with questions as to whether or not the future can be changed or is set in stone, the weight of individual choices vs the big picture, the concept of freedom and so forth.
Foundation, the tv series, took the late Roman/Byzantines in Space idea and ran with it, but far more inventively than other space Romans I've watched. Instead of your regular imperial dynasty (which it is in the novels, I think), the "genetic dynasty" in the show always consists of a trio of clones based on its founder, Cleon I., in various stages of his life - Brother Dawn (child and young man up to his early 20), Brother Day (the ruling Emperor in his 30s and 40s, and that's where multiple Lee Pace performances come in, naked or otherwise) and Brother Dusk (50s, 60s, 70s, then he "ascends" i.e. dies and a new baby brother Dawn is "birthed" while the previous Dawn and Day are promoted to Day and Dusk, respectively. This is supposed to ensure there's never a succession conflict and is also a great symbol for the stagnation Seldon diagnoses, because while the various clones of Cleon do have some differences in their personalities (and these are a gift for actors), they raise each other and thus the same type of decisions keep being made. Also raising them, supporting them and being the all important political advisor to boot: Demerzel, the last (to everyone's knowledge, including her own) surviving human-looking robot, who was already millennia of years old when the Genetic dynasty started. (We get some dialogue in both seasons about the millennia ago "Robotic Wars", but no details. Demerzel's personal backstory is revealed in fragments, with the biggest reveal happening in the last but one season episode which recontextualizes a lot of previous events, but there's still a lot more, given her age. (She might be the oldest sentient person in the galaxy at this point, and she's definitely a person.) (If you know your Asiimov Robotic Laws, you'll mutter "but what about..." at certain plot points in s1; s2 does bring them up and addresses what altered for Demerzel re: that.) Demerzel's relationships with the Cleons and theirs with her is intense and screwed up on several levels, and as I said, and the question of free will and programming for both machine and human is very much central to it. As for the imperial clones, of whom we meet various incarnations due to s1 having two time jumps and s2 another one right at the start, they work better as variations of the same basic potential and genetic make-up changed through circumstances into separate personalities than anything I've seen since Orphan Black. (BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to make them a triad at different ages wasn't on a Doylist level also made to ensure no one actor had to do all those scenes because while Tatiana Maslany succeeded gloriously, this is a A LOT of work.) Some are sympathetic, some are despicable, some in between, but you always get where they're coming from - and the sheer deformity which comes by inahabiting the all powerful position of Empire is never ignored.
And those are "just" the show's antagonists.
(The Imperial splendor on Trantor is both where part of the show's budget clearly went and Byzantine-influenced more than by Romans, with the colourful murals being also plot points in both seasons.)
On the heroic side of things, we have Gaal, mathematical prodigy from a deeply science loathing planet, Salvor, of the first generation born Terminus, the planet where Seldon's followers were settling on, who in the first seaosn is the show's stoic action heroine, Salvor's parents who are part of the original exiles, Salvor's boyfriend... and the late, or is he, Hari Seldon, whose theory kicks off the plot. Hari Seldon in the novels as far as I recall dies very early on and thereafter occasionally shows up as a holographic recording. This isn't quite what happens on the show, to put it as unspoilery as possible. He's also a lot more morally ambiguous than the nice old man figure I dimly recalled. Which is guessable from the fact they hired Jared Harris to play him. This casting really pays off in the second season, when the fact there are two versions of Hari around gives Jared Harris more to do than make enigmatic, cryptic remarks and show some hidden desperation in between. (For easier future reading, Hari-in-the-Vault is the smug digital one, and Hari-with-a-new-body the one ending up travelling with Gaal and Salvor in s2. A combination of characters which was great, solving the aimlessness of Gaal's later s1 storyline. I was a bit side eyeing the fact at the end of s1 that Salvor takes off to find the genetic mother she's never known, but the show had made it clear Salvor loved and got along well with the parents who raised her, she was simply curious as to whose memories she kept experiencing through the season. In s2, Gaal finding herself more than a century from her original present with a daughter she didn't know she had and who was a bit older than her made for a fascinating dynamic. S1 had established Gaal going from hero worshipping Hari to questioning him to resenting him for what he did to Reysh and deliberately acting against him because of that, and s2 built on that by giving Hari also a reason to resent and blame Gaal - being trapped conscious as opposed to her in that device for a century has reduced him to a messed up wreck instead of a know-it-all when we meet him again -, while Salvor has already been dissappointed by the Hari-in-the-Vault version and has no reason to trust him at all. Three people with justified issues re: each other being forced to work together and catching feelings for each other while they're at it makes a a great arc through the season.
S2 added Constant and Poly (Poly we've seen as a small boy in s1 and he's an old man in s2), and Constant, a cheerful cleric with an earthy fondness for life and a great sense of humor, is probably my favourite new s2 character, despite fierce competition by Space!Belisarius, err, General Bel Rios, the Ben Daniels character who comes with a husband he loves, Glawen, Queen Sarbeth and her trusty advisor the former courtesan Rue. (Rue has backstory with the current Dusk, Sarbeth has plans for the current Day.) And Hober, a trickster type from the fine tradition of characters claiming to look out only for themselves but finding themselves in the business of hero saving before they know it. The various storylines intersect and influence each other at different points, and where in s1 I thought the Clones-plus-Demerezel plotline worked better than the Foundation characters plot line(s) did, s2 changed that so I never was impatient to get back to palace scheming and power struggling but was rivetted by what everyone else whas doing as well, see above.
Perfect, the show is not. But it has definitely captured me, and I do hope it will get its third season to continue its tale. Both seasons wrap up the stories of their seasons-only characters, and there will of course be another time jump (as indicated by its teaser scene at the very end), but in addition to those characters surviving from season to season due to plot and circumstance (three or four so far, depending on how you count one of them), this is a show where cloning, digital copies and as of s2 body switching are all part of the worldbuilding, so they could potentially bring back other characters as well. Even if not, there hasn't been one the show didn't manage to make interesting for me so far, and I trust that will continue. And it is fantastic to look at, in general, not just Trantor. The "spacers", i.e. genetically manipulated humans needed by the current faster-then-light travelling ships, being a case in point, but also invidual worlds, like the desert world Brother Day and Demerzel visit in s1, or Gaal's watery home planet. (That her people chose to ignore science and let the ruination of the environment continue until the ocean overtook everything is a none too subtle dig at the present, but that water planet still looks great.)
...and did I mention you get Lee Pace doing everything from subtle reactions to scenery chewing with abandonment as various Space!Roman/Byzantine Emperors with no concept of personal space?
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And yes, I started watching it for Lee Pace as well. I fell in love with Lee Pace in Halt Catch Fire. And he is very good in this role (not to mention pretty), as is Terrence Man as Dusk (albeit not as pretty). I also adore Ben Daniels (added as Bel Riose) and the new character of Constance. And I love Salvor Hardin. The actress playing Demerzel is really good. Gaal gets on my nerves - but that's partly due to her poor development - she's more of a cypher character, or one who observes but doesn't do much at the moment - that may change. Hari Seldon also gets on my nerves - but for different reasons, and is possibly supposed to?
This is an interesting series - I'm not quite sure who to root for half of the time. I love the complexity. Did not realize Josh Friedman was Sarah Connor Chronicles fame - that explains a lot (I loved SCC). Also has Liz Phang (Yellowjackets, Haunting of Hill House, and The Strain.)
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:) I was very impressed in s1 of how to played the second Dusk - who used to be Day in the opening three episodes - as quite different from the first Dusk we meet, and as believably the same person (Cleon XII) Lee Pace played in the opening episodes, while still maintaining the general Cleon demeanour. And his s2 Dusk and his original Cleon (I) are recognizably different from each other again.
This is an interesting series - I'm not quite sure who to root for half of the time. I love the complexity.
Same here!
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I'm on the fence about the actor playing Dawn though...
Admittedly, I've always been a Lee Pace/Terence Mann fan. (Yes, I love lesser known actors, who I have to hunt for.)
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(Btw, I was going to write that the various Dawns aren’t yet displaying Cleon’s capacity for cruelty which would imply this something coming out only once he has power, but that’s not strictly true - the rebel clone Dawn behaves cruellly towards colorblind Dawn, mocking him in a situation where they both think colorblind Dawn is about to die, and it’s Dawn-age Cleon I who tells the imprisoned Demerzel when she asks him to free her that since he’s about to become Emperor and thus won’t be free again for the rest of his life, it doesn’t feel right for that she should be free, and that she won’t see him again (which he sticks to until he’s Lee Pace shaped and returns to her). So the Dawns do have it in them to be cruel as well, it’s just that the ones we see the most of so far - colorblind Dawn in s1 and Falls-for-Sarbeth Dawn in s2 - don’t act this way but display more Cleon’s capacity for vulnerability and attachment.
no subject
Also, it does appear that power or the lust for it - brings out the cruelty in him? Because in Long Ago Far Away - when he decides to not free her - is mainly because of the prison of power, which he wants to reject. And note in the episode where Clone!Rebel!Dawn confronts Real!Rebel!Dawn - Clone!Rebel is cruel partly because he has power or wants to take it away from Real!Rebel!Dawn.
I honestly think the weight of Empire is what makes them cruel.
What I like about this series - is the writers deftly show that they are capable of gracious and even kind acts in the midst of the cruelty. Showing how people are more than one thing - and not just one-dimensional or stock villains. I mean, all three of the Clones are capable of cruelty and kindness.
As is Hari Seldon. And Lady Demerezel. I think they tend to fall toward cruelty when power is at issue, or the temptation to abuse it.
Also, I'd say, you are correct - the Dawn's do show more vulnerability and attachment as we move forward in the series. I did find how each version handled Demerzel interesting - Dawn leaves her trapped, because he is trapped, Day puts her back together and clothes her, but doesn't free her.
Dusk frees her from one cage only to put her in another one, making me think that he waited to free her until he could figure out how to make her his personal cell mate. I'd say prisoner, but I honestly think he felt he was in a prison and desired a companion who would co-exist in it with him for eternity (of sorts).
no subject
Absolutely. The Day whom we first meet as a child in the pilot during his "pilgrimage" on the spiral mid s1 doesn't abandon the stranger whom he befriended when the man breaks, and there's just the two of them, he has nothing to gain but still tries to save the man and once he fails to do that gives him a dignified burial before continuing. The same day, once he's completed the pilgrimage and thus bested the ambitious priestess Halima, still orders Demerezel to kill her, presumably because he was still angry at Demerezel for having bowed to the woman. It's not an either/or, it's a both, he's capable of both.
re: Hari Seldon, it's fascinating to see how the two digital copies of him who behaved extremely similar in s1 diverge more and more in s2 in their behaviour, and that can be pretty clearly traced to the very different experiences they make and positions they're in, of which one of them getting a new body is but one. The Hari in the vault doesn't feel the time passing, he doesn't experience pain, he's treated as a superior being by the people on Terminus whenever he contacs the, and he's capable of killing a man just to make a point (the Warden at the start of s2), which as Poly points out in a tag scene to s2 other reviews told me wasn't filmed for budget reasons (because the background would have been the surviving Foundationists arriving at and settling on their new planet of residence) is a very Empire kind of thing to do. Meanwhile, the Hary with Gaal and Salvor has experienced time passing, behaves much more emotional even before getting reembodied as a result, the people he's with don't treat him as superior or listen to him if he doesn't have actual good arguments, they distrust him, and the renewed closeness at the end of s2 has to be earned through the season. He's of course also capable of killing (and does), but in anger and defense, not to make a point. He is as fixated on his plan as the other version of him in the Vault, but note that Gaal talks him out of his original idea (let her make it to the Mule era in cryo sleep and let him live out his second life establishing the Second Foundation and eventually die) and into a different plan (both of them go into cryo and check out once a year on how the Second Foundation is doing until the Mule era) by an emotional appeal - that she does not want to be alone in the future. I don't think Hari-in-the-Vault would have had the compassion to listen to Gaal, and being in the elevated, untouchable and powerful position he is in the Vault, he has no need to.
=> yes, power brings out cruelty.
Dusk frees her from one cage only to put her in another one, making me think that he waited to free her until he could figure out how to make her his personal cell mate. I'd say prisoner, but I honestly think he felt he was in a prison and desired a companion who would co-exist in it with him for eternity (of sorts).
Yes, I think that was his motivation and how he saw it. As for Demerezel, I think when she first saw that child of course she wanted to motivate it to free her, and much of their interaction through the decades until he eventually did was designed for that purpose. At the same time, unless there's something we don't know yet, he was the first person she talked to in 5000 years, so of course she came to genuinely care for him, and that's why in that brief time between stepping out of her cage and him reprogramming her, she did not kill him, or even just push him away in order to run. As he realises later, he'll never know whether she loves him because he doesn't ask until he has made it compulsory for her. And Demerezel and the Cleon clones through the centuries are another story again. We've seen her manipulative with some (the s2 Day who has sex with her, obviously), tender to others when there was nothing to gain (the first Dusk we meet in s1 during his final days, preparing for his death, or her singing to the unborn clones) and killing the colorblind Dawn near the end of s1 to end the argument between Day and Dusk over him upsets her so much that she claws her human skin off her skull and screams in the privacy of her quarters where no one but the audience sees her. And she very evidently does not want to kill Dusk and Rue in 2.09 while still doing so, so here it's clear that her emotions don't come from her protect-the-dynasty program but are rather in conflict with it.
no subject
Odd. That wasn't a tag scene - I saw it on Apple TV - when I watched the episode. Is it one overseas and not in the States? Very odd.
Because I remember laughing at it.
thus bested the ambitious priestess Halima, still orders Demerezel to kill her, presumably because he was still angry at Demerezel for having bowed to the woman
That was an interesting and haunting episode. In it we learn that Day lies about his vision at the center of the spiral. In truth - he saw nothing at all. Demerzal confronts him on it - I think, not certain, before he orders her to kill Halima? She tells him that the flower he describes - is the same one in her personal quarters, that he saw while he was with her. And clearly - she traveled the spiral at some point and got a vision, but she seems to know that he did not. And she states, "that's an emptiness that I would not wish on anyone." He gets angry at her, and in flashback - we see him remember not seeing anything, and feeling empty and alone, curling in on himself in the lake at the center. After that - I think he orders her to kill Halima? Or was it before? It's almost as if they are playing a chess match or power game, who has power over whom. He gets back at her for bowing to Halima, by ordering her to kill Halima for him - knowing she can't disobey. And she gets back at him by telling him she knows he's empty inside?
It's a recurring power-play. She does it in Episode 9 (?) when she apologizes to him for not raising him right - and as a result he's a complete failure as a ruler and man - to such a degree, that he's clearly devastated by what she's said. And she does it before taking off, and right before he destroys Terminus against her advice. She knows he's going to - which is most likely why she says it.
Their dynamic is fascinating. It's like watching two caged tigers circle each other, stuck in a cage, knowing they can't destroy each other, that they both love and hate each other, and are kind of trapped in this weird co-dependent hell for eternity? I can see Friedman's hand in that. Along with Espenson's. Both handle AI/human interactions very well.
***
Hari Seldon is equally interesting - because we have the rational, mathematical AI Hari - who is a data stream. Who's all logic. And the human Hari. [At least I think he's human - still haven't figured out how he survived the drowning - but I haven't seen the finale episode yet. (No worries you didn't spoil me - I knew what happened to Hari and Gaal already, just nothing else - or not really.) That will be remedied either tonight or tomorrow.] I agree human Hari is interesting in how he changes, and is almost kinder and more genuine than AI Hari. AI Hari could become problematic later, particularly after Empire destroyed Terminus.
I am curious to see if the series goes in the same direction as the books regarding the Mule. (I've not read the books as such - but I read the Wiki synopsis of them - and it appears in Second Foundation the Mule pops up as kind of a new leader, who is a powerful telepath, but not entirely evil. ) What fascinates me about this series - is no one is entirely good or evil, and all the characters are equally capable of both. (Very Babylon 5, the Wire,and BSG in that respect). Television series, novels or films that pull off that difficult feat - I fall in love with. Because in reality that's how we are - capable of wonderful and horrible things often at the same time. It's far more interesting to watch complicated protagonists and antagonists than straight up heroes and villains.
no subject
Odd. That wasn't a tag scene - I saw it on Apple TV - when I watched the episode. Is it one overseas and not in the States? Very odd.
It wasn't in the version I saw, but various reviews mention it was scripted and published after the finale was broadcast with the note it wasn't filmed for budget reasons.
After that - I think he orders her to kill Halima? Or was it before?
No, he orders her to kill Halima first, then Demerzel has her conversation with Halima - chronologically, this is the first time in the series where we the audience see her that emotionally torn about something - during which she does it -, then she reports to Day it's done, and on this occasion she points out the thing with the flower he saw in her quarters and makes he devastating "emptiness" statement.
He gets back at her for bowing to Halima, by ordering her to kill Halima for him - knowing she can't disobey. And she gets back at him by telling him she knows he's empty inside?
Yes. It's also the first time we see see a Clone and Demerzel at odds with another, which is all the more remarkable because this particular one has been the one Cleon until this point shown most in her company and having a close relationship with her - as a child Dawn, he clings to her hand in 1.02. when the then current Day has the Anacreons and Thespians executed by hanging, and he keeps showing up in her quarters when she's restoring her appearance both as a child and as an adult. Finding out that she follows the Luminarian religion already disturbed him (there's the "aren't we enough for you?" conversation when she ends up saying "yes, but you all die"), and going by the look he gives her, that she bows to this particular Priestess who openly challenged him in particular comes across as a betrayal to him. (She later tells him that if she hadn't bowed, she would have lost credibility as a follower of the religion then and there, which might be true or might be an excuse, it's neatly ambigous. Though going by her scene with Halima where none but the two are present and Demerzel knows Halima will die, her wish for a purpose and answers aside form the dynasty is genuine.
It's a recurring power-play. She does it in Episode 9 (?) when she apologizes to him for not raising him right - and as a result he's a complete failure as a ruler and man - to such a degree, that he's clearly devastated by what she's said. And she does it before taking off, and right before he destroys Terminus against her advice. She knows he's going to - which is most likely why she says it.
Agreed, though that's a different Day, a hundred thirty years after the one who went to the spiral. (Day who went through the Spiral = Cleon XIII, s1. Day who destroys Terminus = Cleon XVII, s2.)
I can see Friedman's hand in that. Along with Espenson's. Both handle AI/human interactions very well.
Very true. I was also thinking this when Hari-in-the-vault talks directly to Demerzel repeatedly despite Day trying to have an eclusive conversation with him. It reminded me a bit of John Henry (the AI who isn't Skynet) meeting Cameron in the SCC finale. Once you've watched the Foundation s2 finale, you'll see the Hari-Demerzel encounter had a direct and fateful consequence.
Re: the Mule: I don't remember much because it was so long ago, but I don't think he's completely evil in the books, no. Also, note that we've already seen a difference between how Gaal sees him in her visions - as someone terrifying and aggressive who instantly attacks her, with goggles covering most of his face, dehumanizing him - and how we the audience see him in the season's tag scene (face uncovered, very human, shivering, afraid, seeing Gaal as the coming menace).
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(Although you see the variations between the Days and Dusks and Dawns better than I have. It may be how we're watching them? I've been watching this series with a lot of time in between various episodes. Also, I kept falling asleep during the first three episodes of S1- not sure why. So anything that happened in them is kind of foggy. They repeat a lot of it - so it's not an issue plot wise. And I'm not binging it. I tend to watch them every few days, sometimes two episodes in a row, time permitting. I also think how we've been watching them - may explain why I didn't notice that the tag line was deleted from the original broadcast. I didn't see the original broadcast. I saw it long after the fact, and they've apparently updated it on my streaming service or I selected the updated version automatically. This is also about point of view - in that we are seeing different television shows because of how we are each watching them. That has always fascinated me - how everyone perceives the world so differently from each other - it's almost a miracle when we agree?)
Anyhow, the point of view is interesting - in Day's point of view, Hari is evil, and in Hari's Day is. And Demerzel - it's not clear who she sees as a threat - the Cleons, she has an odd relationship with - they are in a way her warden's, but she is also theirs. And they are her caretakers as she is their caretaker. A marriage - would I think threaten her while at the same time, potentially free her?
Oh, so they are keeping the Mule ambiguous, or complicated? And it just depends on whose point of view you're in? That's good news.