![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
DVDS with deleted scenes, how I love them: the Heroes edition
Very tired, but not too tired to watch the deleted scenes on the Heroes Season 2 dvds which were finally awaiting me when I came back this evening. I think everyone in Heroes fandom on my flist probably has seen and discussed them already, but hear me blather about them nonetheless:
I. The Monica scene where the robber surprises her, she tries to use her copied Bruce Lee moves and is frozen when he pulls a gun on her I wish they kept. Not just because it foreshadows her problem in the finale but also because it spells it out even more clearly and maybe fans then wouldn't have complained about Monica being a wimp. She's not. But neither is she a trained fighter. Here, she gets into Bruce Lee position, copying the scene as she watched it, since this is her gift, but the robber isn't following the script, he's real life (err, so to speak), and because she's just copying, not using the fight moves in a way someone trained to do them would, she can't respond to that as she should. What Monica needs is training so she can use the moves she has creatively.
Also? The scene ending with Mohinder tasering her after he tasers the robber shows Mohinder using a Company-dictated move efficiently and without hesitation and thus emphasizes the shades of grey and degree of integration. I always thought the moral dilemma later that ep wasn't one, because seriously, who believed even for a moment Mohinder would use the virus on Monica? On the other hand, tasering people is something he can justify to himself.
Lastly on that subject, it leads to Bob cracking me up with his line to Monica: "We don't know how any given individual will respond when approached, so our policy is to be both safe and sorry." Oh, Bob. You are so my favourite new character of season 2, and if you're not in volume 3, my heart will be broken.
II. The additional minute or so in the Kaito and Ando scene from "Four Months Later" which reveals Kaito's power really should have stayed. Cut out some West instead, production team. There can never be enough Elders, and it was cool.
III. The two big Petrelli scenes: the first one DEFINITELY should have stayed, the second one I'm going to and thro about. The first one, oh, the first one, between bearded Nathan and Angela in the bar after she received her death threat is so deliciously fucked up in the way only the Petrellis can be. (Also, the intro tells us what became of Nathan's congress seat and who has it now.) It also adds to the later Angela and Nathan scenes when she's in the hospital, and manages to cover several relationships and aspects at once: the one with Peter, of course (and the tree house and getting drunk fics probably have been written by now, I just hope there is a non-sappy one, because I don't want sappy right now), then there is that screwed up pairing, Nathan/Flying - no fanfic, but no fanfic (correct me if I'm wrong?) that dealt with the immediate aftermath to the accident had him trying out this ability to fly during that night. It totally works for me, the same way as denial did, because it's either complete blocking out what happened or accepting he is crazy, and at this point Nathan would not accept being crazy. So yes, trying it out again to check whether this really happened? Figures. And then he flies to the spot of family summer vacations and sibling bonding, you know, like the one currently going on re: going after dear old dad, and the next thing you know, Arthur commits suicide and Peter gets told "I can't be with you anymore". Oh, Petrellis. But the absolute best thing about the scene, hands down, is the interaction with Angela. First that she asks him for help to begin with, and then tries a - for Angela - less than subtle approach of the emotional button pushing with the "if you're looking for redemption, redeem yourself by saving me" (btw, as I said this sentence casts another light to her later scene in the hospital where she tells him "there is no redemption here, you can't redeem yourself through me"). What exactly does she expect him to do? I mean, at this point Angela doesn't know for sure who is after her, but I bet she has a better idea than Kaito did, and it's not like Nathan could either kill Adam for her or would be any use against Maury. IMO she just wants him back. And then we get to the climax, with Nathan responding pure Petrelli style, with intense touching (patented shoulder grip-pull, plus forehead touching which is more Angela's thing than his, but there you go, and it's probably precisely because it's her gesture he uses it here), stays there long enough for her to let herself sink into the motion and respond, and deals the verbal blow with "we're Petrellis, Ma. None of us deserves to be saved". Mixture of physical tenderness and verbal slash-n-strike which really no non-Petrelli gets in its finest form. (Again, gives yet more texture to the hospital scene and Angela pulling him closer and stroking while telling him he might have shaved but he's still a complete mess, etc.) See, this is why even among strong competition, the Angela/Nathan relationship gets my prize for most screwed up relationship between two members of the Petrelli family.
The other big scene: on the one hand, I can see why it was cut, because Nathan's burnt make-up looks really fake in the bright light. Also, if he's able to try physical therapy and at least manages to use his arms that much he's not exactly at death's door, which lessens the drama of the big blood transfer rescue moment with Adam and Peter later. On the other hand, this scene is really important for Heidi's characterisation, because it takes place after Angela's little number on her and shows that at this point Heidi is still with Nathan and hasn't left him; his lashing out at her and the kids, complete with yelling he doesn't want or need them, gives her a better reason to leave him and put restrictions on his access to the children. (Oh, and we get yet more hints Simon and Monty are Nathan and Peter redux, with their reactions.) It also makes Nathan more responsible for the state he's in in Four Months Later and means Angela wasn't just transferring blame when she mentioned him driving Heidi away.
IV. And then we have the two Matt scenes. The one with Nathan and Molly covers a question which I don't think many asked, but which was indeed a plot hole, to wit: why didn't they use Molly to track down Adam and/or Peter after her recovery? (Since at this point Bob has revealed to Nathan that Peter is alive and has given him Adam's name as the person behind Maury.) And it gives us more about the relationship between Matt and Nathan, always a plus. So I think it should have been kept. It makes sense both that Nathan would think of Molly finding his brother and Adam (and wouldn't see "has just gotten out of a coma" as an obstacle by his own), AND that Matt's way of saying no would work for him, because Matt argues the "she's my daughter, and I failed her before" argument, which would resonate with Nathan for obvious reasons. It's also underlines that while Matt in s2 more often follows Nathan's lead, this is something of a partnership in that Nathan completely respects his choice here.
The other Matt scene with Molly from some episodes later: this one could either be indispensable or justly cut, depending to where they go with Matt in volume 3, because it shows he used his newfound mental command ability on Molly again. Now when he does this in the broadcast scenes, the first time it's an accident and the second time to make sure that what he thinks happened actually happened, so it's in a different category from the way he uses it later on his boss or on Angela. In the deleted scene, however, he clearly has used it on Molly intentionally and with forethought (basically, he told her not to use her ability at school and only do what normal children do, which is highly ironic considering their argument from the season opener where she told him he cheated by using his telepathy to pass his exam), which definitely falls into the same dark category as the use on Angela and his boss does. (Actually, darker, because with Angela he has the excuse that he has to track down a murderer who is about to kill again, plus she's an adult; Molly is a child in his charge.) Matt's expression when Molly says "I'm glad you talked me into this" remains troubled, but when she asks him "and what about you? did you get what you want today?" he replies "yes". So if they go with Matt going dark side in v3, I'd say they should have kept this scene; if not, then the deleting was the right choice, because it keeps Matt on the grey side.
V. The West, Niki and Maya scenes didn't add anything and thus were well deleted.
VI. On the subject of the Yaeko-Hiro-Kensei scenes, I'm torn again. On the one hand, the Japanese storyline should have been kept shorter in general. On the other, these two scenes really clarify and add, especially in regards to Yaeko and Kensei. Firstly, you have Kensei actually asking Hiro to play Cyrano de Bergerac for him with Yaeko and watching Hiro play his role behind a mask, at which point one really has to be either wilfully blind or cruel or both not to realize Hiro is in love with the girl, too, though at this point doing his utmost to resist. Secondly, it's a really good scene for Yaeko as she sees through the deception and calls Hiro out on it. And then he cheats by using his ability to substite Kensei for himself when she tries to pull off his mask. This underscores Yaeko is no fool (and really, without knowing about the ability in question, if you pull off a mask of someone and someone else is beneath it, you have to accept your earlier conclusion was wrong and the guy you fell for was indeed the blond one) and makes Kensei/Adam more manipulative at this early stage (since he is in agreement with this whole substitution scenario), hinting at what's to come.
All in all, these scenes reminded me how much I like these characters and their world. And look forward to the new season. In which there better is more Bob Bishop and more Petrellis in the same room at the same time. And more Matt (of either the grey or the going dark persuasion, I accept both flavours) and Molly. And more ambiguous Mohinder. In short: more Heroes (which sadly will also mean more Sylar, I suppose, but you can't have everything.)
I. The Monica scene where the robber surprises her, she tries to use her copied Bruce Lee moves and is frozen when he pulls a gun on her I wish they kept. Not just because it foreshadows her problem in the finale but also because it spells it out even more clearly and maybe fans then wouldn't have complained about Monica being a wimp. She's not. But neither is she a trained fighter. Here, she gets into Bruce Lee position, copying the scene as she watched it, since this is her gift, but the robber isn't following the script, he's real life (err, so to speak), and because she's just copying, not using the fight moves in a way someone trained to do them would, she can't respond to that as she should. What Monica needs is training so she can use the moves she has creatively.
Also? The scene ending with Mohinder tasering her after he tasers the robber shows Mohinder using a Company-dictated move efficiently and without hesitation and thus emphasizes the shades of grey and degree of integration. I always thought the moral dilemma later that ep wasn't one, because seriously, who believed even for a moment Mohinder would use the virus on Monica? On the other hand, tasering people is something he can justify to himself.
Lastly on that subject, it leads to Bob cracking me up with his line to Monica: "We don't know how any given individual will respond when approached, so our policy is to be both safe and sorry." Oh, Bob. You are so my favourite new character of season 2, and if you're not in volume 3, my heart will be broken.
II. The additional minute or so in the Kaito and Ando scene from "Four Months Later" which reveals Kaito's power really should have stayed. Cut out some West instead, production team. There can never be enough Elders, and it was cool.
III. The two big Petrelli scenes: the first one DEFINITELY should have stayed, the second one I'm going to and thro about. The first one, oh, the first one, between bearded Nathan and Angela in the bar after she received her death threat is so deliciously fucked up in the way only the Petrellis can be. (Also, the intro tells us what became of Nathan's congress seat and who has it now.) It also adds to the later Angela and Nathan scenes when she's in the hospital, and manages to cover several relationships and aspects at once: the one with Peter, of course (and the tree house and getting drunk fics probably have been written by now, I just hope there is a non-sappy one, because I don't want sappy right now), then there is that screwed up pairing, Nathan/Flying - no fanfic, but no fanfic (correct me if I'm wrong?) that dealt with the immediate aftermath to the accident had him trying out this ability to fly during that night. It totally works for me, the same way as denial did, because it's either complete blocking out what happened or accepting he is crazy, and at this point Nathan would not accept being crazy. So yes, trying it out again to check whether this really happened? Figures. And then he flies to the spot of family summer vacations and sibling bonding, you know, like the one currently going on re: going after dear old dad, and the next thing you know, Arthur commits suicide and Peter gets told "I can't be with you anymore". Oh, Petrellis. But the absolute best thing about the scene, hands down, is the interaction with Angela. First that she asks him for help to begin with, and then tries a - for Angela - less than subtle approach of the emotional button pushing with the "if you're looking for redemption, redeem yourself by saving me" (btw, as I said this sentence casts another light to her later scene in the hospital where she tells him "there is no redemption here, you can't redeem yourself through me"). What exactly does she expect him to do? I mean, at this point Angela doesn't know for sure who is after her, but I bet she has a better idea than Kaito did, and it's not like Nathan could either kill Adam for her or would be any use against Maury. IMO she just wants him back. And then we get to the climax, with Nathan responding pure Petrelli style, with intense touching (patented shoulder grip-pull, plus forehead touching which is more Angela's thing than his, but there you go, and it's probably precisely because it's her gesture he uses it here), stays there long enough for her to let herself sink into the motion and respond, and deals the verbal blow with "we're Petrellis, Ma. None of us deserves to be saved". Mixture of physical tenderness and verbal slash-n-strike which really no non-Petrelli gets in its finest form. (Again, gives yet more texture to the hospital scene and Angela pulling him closer and stroking while telling him he might have shaved but he's still a complete mess, etc.) See, this is why even among strong competition, the Angela/Nathan relationship gets my prize for most screwed up relationship between two members of the Petrelli family.
The other big scene: on the one hand, I can see why it was cut, because Nathan's burnt make-up looks really fake in the bright light. Also, if he's able to try physical therapy and at least manages to use his arms that much he's not exactly at death's door, which lessens the drama of the big blood transfer rescue moment with Adam and Peter later. On the other hand, this scene is really important for Heidi's characterisation, because it takes place after Angela's little number on her and shows that at this point Heidi is still with Nathan and hasn't left him; his lashing out at her and the kids, complete with yelling he doesn't want or need them, gives her a better reason to leave him and put restrictions on his access to the children. (Oh, and we get yet more hints Simon and Monty are Nathan and Peter redux, with their reactions.) It also makes Nathan more responsible for the state he's in in Four Months Later and means Angela wasn't just transferring blame when she mentioned him driving Heidi away.
IV. And then we have the two Matt scenes. The one with Nathan and Molly covers a question which I don't think many asked, but which was indeed a plot hole, to wit: why didn't they use Molly to track down Adam and/or Peter after her recovery? (Since at this point Bob has revealed to Nathan that Peter is alive and has given him Adam's name as the person behind Maury.) And it gives us more about the relationship between Matt and Nathan, always a plus. So I think it should have been kept. It makes sense both that Nathan would think of Molly finding his brother and Adam (and wouldn't see "has just gotten out of a coma" as an obstacle by his own), AND that Matt's way of saying no would work for him, because Matt argues the "she's my daughter, and I failed her before" argument, which would resonate with Nathan for obvious reasons. It's also underlines that while Matt in s2 more often follows Nathan's lead, this is something of a partnership in that Nathan completely respects his choice here.
The other Matt scene with Molly from some episodes later: this one could either be indispensable or justly cut, depending to where they go with Matt in volume 3, because it shows he used his newfound mental command ability on Molly again. Now when he does this in the broadcast scenes, the first time it's an accident and the second time to make sure that what he thinks happened actually happened, so it's in a different category from the way he uses it later on his boss or on Angela. In the deleted scene, however, he clearly has used it on Molly intentionally and with forethought (basically, he told her not to use her ability at school and only do what normal children do, which is highly ironic considering their argument from the season opener where she told him he cheated by using his telepathy to pass his exam), which definitely falls into the same dark category as the use on Angela and his boss does. (Actually, darker, because with Angela he has the excuse that he has to track down a murderer who is about to kill again, plus she's an adult; Molly is a child in his charge.) Matt's expression when Molly says "I'm glad you talked me into this" remains troubled, but when she asks him "and what about you? did you get what you want today?" he replies "yes". So if they go with Matt going dark side in v3, I'd say they should have kept this scene; if not, then the deleting was the right choice, because it keeps Matt on the grey side.
V. The West, Niki and Maya scenes didn't add anything and thus were well deleted.
VI. On the subject of the Yaeko-Hiro-Kensei scenes, I'm torn again. On the one hand, the Japanese storyline should have been kept shorter in general. On the other, these two scenes really clarify and add, especially in regards to Yaeko and Kensei. Firstly, you have Kensei actually asking Hiro to play Cyrano de Bergerac for him with Yaeko and watching Hiro play his role behind a mask, at which point one really has to be either wilfully blind or cruel or both not to realize Hiro is in love with the girl, too, though at this point doing his utmost to resist. Secondly, it's a really good scene for Yaeko as she sees through the deception and calls Hiro out on it. And then he cheats by using his ability to substite Kensei for himself when she tries to pull off his mask. This underscores Yaeko is no fool (and really, without knowing about the ability in question, if you pull off a mask of someone and someone else is beneath it, you have to accept your earlier conclusion was wrong and the guy you fell for was indeed the blond one) and makes Kensei/Adam more manipulative at this early stage (since he is in agreement with this whole substitution scenario), hinting at what's to come.
All in all, these scenes reminded me how much I like these characters and their world. And look forward to the new season. In which there better is more Bob Bishop and more Petrellis in the same room at the same time. And more Matt (of either the grey or the going dark persuasion, I accept both flavours) and Molly. And more ambiguous Mohinder. In short: more Heroes (which sadly will also mean more Sylar, I suppose, but you can't have everything.)
no subject
no subject
It's scenes like this that are the only reason I hate the new characters (twins!), because this scene was cut for time - its too amazing not to have been.
And I love Matt and Nathan can't wait for this.
On another note that scene with Angela is so important to her character arch I think, to see her almost begging for her life and for Nathan to help her - its everything she got coming to her - its like she's the mother who cried wolf. It also makes it work so much more that Nathan wants to help his mother so much. He pushed her aside and didn't believe her and now she really is in trouble and he is looking for redemption. Peter came to him and he didn't pushed him away and maybe if Nathan (in his mind) had acted NOT at the last moment things would have happened different. Ahh, I may watch this scene over and over again when it comes out on Tuesday. :) Thanks so much
no subject
Watch the Nathan and Angela scene. It's so very, very awesome.
no subject
Yes, exactly, that works only if you take this deleted scene into account, and definitely gives Nathan's urgency to help Angela later another layer. It's a big thing for her, too, asking for his help - I don't think we've ever seen Angela do this with anyone; usually she tells (as i commands) people to do something, as with Peter in Out of Time when she tells him he needs to go back, or she tries to insinuate and manipulate, but she doesn't point blank ask for help. And the emotions are so intense on both their sides - it should never have been cut out, curse it.
no subject
Oh, so huge. It shows how desperate Angela is and how fall she's fallen - its so important to her storyline - Angela Petrelli does not beg.
Since its referenced in the aired scenes I'm pretending its canon. lol. Like Angela and Peter in the hospital - Cristine has a lot of great work on the cutting room floor. :(
no subject
They need to make a rule ... never cut Angela's scenes!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
no subject
have you seen the outtakes/gagreel? is there petrelliness? maybe?
no subject
no subject
They really should. All of Angela's cut scenes so far were so much of the win. Plus, Angela and another Petrelli in the same room, whether it's Nathan, Peter or Claire? Is pretty much guaranteed to be a classic.
no subject
That's absolutely priceless.
I, too, am sorry that Mohinder's moral ambiguity got cut--though not so much about Monica's scene, since I continue to be baffled by people who thought she was a wimp for not kicking the asses of the gang members who were POINTING A GUN IN HER FACE. Um.
the one with Peter, of course (and the tree house and getting drunk fics probably have been written by now, I just hope there is a non-sappy one, because I don't want sappy right now)...
I'm pretty sure that there were 100,000 variations on this that got written before the actual show-writers thought of it. Then 100,000 more after the deleted scenes came out. XD
It makes sense both that Nathan would think of Molly finding his brother and Adam (and wouldn't see "has just gotten out of a coma" as an obstacle by his own), AND that Matt's way of saying no would work for him, because Matt argues the "she's my daughter, and I failed her before" argument, which would resonate with Nathan for obvious reasons. It's also underlines that while Matt in s2 more often follows Nathan's lead, this is something of a partnership in that Nathan completely respects his choice here.
This is really interesting, because I read the ending slightly differently--there were ominous overtones for me in the way Molly was looking back at Nathan, and Nathan was staring at her with this...*hunger* in his eyes, that suggested that he hadn't really accepted Matt's decision but thought it wouldn't be safe to push Matt at this point, you know? Like he was...grudgingly aquiescing, not agreeing.
no subject
Quite. I think it's the viewing habits conditioning; and reading habits, in the case of comic book readers. If you're a mutant/super hero/either or both, and one or several guns are pointed at you, and you're not little Bruce Wayne about to get your origin story, you kickbox them away without getting shot. Never mind how unlikely that is. Doing the sensible thing and being scared of guns that get you killed if you're not Claire and able to heal from this kind of thing is just not done. *rolls eyes*
(Hey - Claire and Monica would make a great crime fighting team. Claire could provide cover in these kind of situations while Monica has the time to work out a new angle.)
Peter, Nathan, treehouse, getting drunk: I saw
Re: Nathan's expression - hungry is a good way of putting it, it was in his eyes, I agree, but I also thought the acceptance of Matt's decision was unmistakable. If he hadn't accepted it, he'd have found a way around Matt. He's a Petrelli, after all. And as opposed to Matt, he doesn't have office hours at that point, what with the whole being unemployed thing. He could have simply shown up when Matt wasn't around and asked Molly for help. Instead, he apparantly followed Bob's info re: Ireland without making such an attempt.
(IMO, if Nathan hadn't started to bond with Matt, he'd have had no scruples about asking Molly, not when she could give him Peter's address on a silver plater, recent coma or not.)
no subject
no subject
While I agree that Hiro & the gambles was played as a fun anecdote in the tale of Hiro's and Ando's Marvellous Adventures, which makes for a very different emotional subtext, we also have:
Nathan's first use of his powers getting his wife crippled. (Okay, also the fault of Linderman's goons, but given Linderman is invested in getting Nathan into office, it's a safe bet to say they just had ordered to scare him, which means Heidi's accident would not have happened if Nathan's flight ability hadn't kicked in.)
Maya: 'nuff said. (I suppose you could say Alejandro's first use of his ability saves someone's life, but that's academic.) And nobody but nobody in the entire powered crowd is made to weep and beg more than poor Maya in s2.
Elle: depending on whether or not her recollections are dependable, she set her grandmother's house on fire before she got permanently stuck inside the Company. (And various experiments ensued, etc.)
no subject
no subject
And it just shows the stubbornness of the audience that most people still refuse to acknowledge that Mohinder wasn't a dupe.
What exactly does she expect him to do? I mean, at this point Angela doesn't know for sure who is after her, but I bet she has a better idea than Kaito did, and it's not like Nathan could either kill Adam for her or would be any use against Maury. IMO she just wants him back
I definitely agree, but I don't think she necessarily wants him back just as family (well, certainly not in the sense that normal people think of family). Petrellis are possessive about people, and possessions bring a sense of security ad power. I think, as much as Angela does want her son at her side, she just as much wants the feeling from before Peter's disappearance back, the feeling of being a ruling matriarch, completely in control of her empire.
On the one hand, the Japanese storyline should have been kept shorter in general.
See, IMO, the problem with the Japa plot is it simultaneously needed to be shorter and longer. Scenes like the cut one are exactly what it needed -- recaps from Ando's perspective were not, and those absolutely should have been removed.
no subject
...I think I made the right choice to stay away from most Heroes posts so I won't get spoiled so shortly before the season starts now that I've managed to be unspoiled for a year. (Well, it feels like a year!)
I think, as much as Angela does want her son at her side, she just as much wants the feeling from before Peter's disappearance back, the feeling of being a ruling matriarch, completely in control of her empire.
I think one feeds into the other. I really have no idea how to imagine her in the virus 'verse where Nathan died during the first outbreak and Peter disappeared untl Out of Times, other than figure she must have managed to talk Claire into an uneasy alliance/apprenticeship. Ruling over strangers just wouldn't do. Plus, you know, I think emotionally she needs someone - Arthur, Peter, Nathan, but definitely someone - though she resents that except with Peter.
And was that whole touch-plus-verbal-slap playing the family game or what?
See, IMO, the problem with the Japa plot is it simultaneously needed to be shorter and longer. Scenes like the cut one are exactly what it needed -- recaps from Ando's perspective were not, and those absolutely should have been removed.
Oh, goog point. I know people love Ando, but you're right, they could have cut his stuff in favour of this.
no subject
Some areas just aren't pretty -- which is to say I really, really need to stay away from the TV Tropes Wiki. I hate that place, and yet their failiness so often sucks me in. :(
other than figure she must have managed to talk Claire into an uneasy alliance/apprenticeship. Ruling over strangers just wouldn't do.
Oh, absolutely. Leaving aside that the Bennets would be dead in that universe, I don't think there's any possible way that either Claire or Angela could have coped with that kind of loss -- of power, of hope -- alone. But what a twisted relationship that would be! By accepting Angela's help specifically, I think Claire very much would have been going back on her S1 rejection of Petrelli values. I can see her as a cold mini-Angela, trying the only thing that might work. Peter's reaction, had he gotten home to see that version of Claire, no doubt would have been horrified (and yet, I think he probably would have been sucked down too).
And was that whole touch-plus-verbal-slap playing the family game or what?
Absolutely. Oh, Petrellis. Why so crazy?
no subject
I remember becoming quite aware of this (in a good way) during S1 of Heroes, when Hiro and Peter found it so hard to kill/attack/generally be Buffy or Angel-like. It gave me a fresh perspective on the way I watched TV.
Re: Nathan's expression - hungry is a good way of putting it, it was in his eyes, I agree, but I also thought the acceptance of Matt's decision was unmistakable.
Yes--I think I was just unclear in my wording. What I meant was that the acceptance was..."OK, I won't go against you by force because I respect you, but I don't have to like it" if you see what I mean.
Thanks for the fic rec--I will check it out!
no subject
no subject
no subject
I'm excited to watch it. :D Hurry up, DVDs...