Star Trek: Discovery 1.05 and 1.06

[selenak]

1.05: In which the first TOS character other than Sarek shows up, the spotlight of the episode is shared by Saru and Lorca, and we finally get on screen canon m/m which is not limited to a few silent seconds.



Mind you, I was never a Harry Mudd fan, not least because the whole 60s "con man with robot girls" premise aged badly. Otoh, I thought Discovery did a neat job of updating the "versatile con man" part of said premise, and brought out the amorality via Mudd being willing to sell out his fellow prisoners rather than via Mudd offering Stepford Wives. (Incidentally, his whole rigmarole about his wife Stella was, if you've seen his two TOS episodes, either another lie or something deeply sad, if you assume he said the truth and once upon a time there was a Stella whom he loved when they were young before he turned her into a robot caricature Kirk later turned against him.) Not sure whether his whole "Starfleet doesn't care about the little guy" dig against Lorca re: the war was meant to be a case of "villain's got a point", because, well, a) the show has so far presented the Klingons as so aggressive and war-bent that peace making really isn't an option, and b) Mudd himself isn't shown to care about anyone . Otoh, the episode definitely uses Mudd to point out Lorca's own shadiness in other ways - first by bringing out Lorca's backstory (more on this later), and then by the fact Lorca leaves him behind on the Klingon vessel when they make their escape.

Sadly, this episode's Klingons go straight back to old stereotypes again. Look, the Durla sisters (TNG, and one DS9 episode) weren't any deeper, characterisation wise, but at least those actresses weren't burdened by prosthetics rendering them near immobile. BTW, other reviews I've read seem to assume that the female Klingon here was supposed to be the same one (L'rell) who last was seen with Volq on the wreck of Philippa Georgiu's ship? I didn't have that impression, though I admit it's hard to tell with that damm make-up. Anyway. TNG's "Chain of Command" spoiled me once and for all as far as episodes with a "the Captain gets tortured" content are concerned (to wit: everyone breaks under torture was its point, and Patrick Stewart was awesome as usual in the acting department), but then again, this episode didn't want to present Lorca as heroically unbreakable a la TOS, it just wanted to highlight some of the nature of his backstory and current day messed up ness, to wit, that he once killed his crew on the rationale that this was better than torture by Klingons. (Yet himself does definitely does not commit suicide when captured by Klingons.) I'm currently trying to decide whether Ash Tyler works better for me as being just what he seems to be, i.e. a human prisoner who survived months of torture and whom Lorca immediately adopts, because given Tyler's very existence demonstrates that even by his own rationale, Lorca made the wrong call re: his old crew, that's so interestingly messed up.... or it would be more interesting if Tyler turns out to be a double agent, and the whole escape engineered. Which would make more sense of why the Klingons kept him alive than "the Captain needed someone to rape", especially after the big deal this and the subsequent episode made about the Discovery as the Federation's secret weapon.

Meanwhile, on Discovery, Saru thinks his temporary command means he has to be ruthless to get everyone out alive, which would work better for me if the ethical dilemma they present him with (it's the old Omelas one yet again, i.e. do I torture another being for the sake of the community?) wouldn't come with, not ethical, but logical flaws (never mind morals, if the Tardigrade is already in terrible condition and as far as Saru knows there's no other way to use the Spore Drive, it does not make sense to risk killing the Tardigrade by subjecting it to another session if that strands the entire ship in Klingon space). Still, it overall works out ethically, proving Michael isn't the only one on board Discovery who sees this is wrong, and gives us the chance to get to know Stamets and the Doctor a bit better. It's a good episode for Stamets in particular, from his utter scientific glee to his sympathy for the Tardigrade to his unhesitating willingness to use himself in its place in order to save everyone's lives (as opposed to making or letting anyone else do it). And then we find out he and the Doctor he bantered with in the previous episode are indeed an item and in an established relationships. Much as I like well done getting-together-stories, in terms of finally giving Trek an on screen m/m relationship this is, I think, the better choice, because it immediately makes it clear there won't be a Very Special Episode, after which the couple is forgotten, that nobody sees anything extraordinary about two men being together in this society, and that they're a long term couple, not a Will They/Won't They tease.

(No opinion on the mirror bit yet. )

Back to Saru: he judges himself for what he's done in the final scene, and I continue to find his relationship with Michael Burnham compelling, complete with the searing honesty with which Saru confesses that it's the might-have-been of becoming Captain Georgiou's first officer hat he holds against Michael emotionally.

The Tardigrade recovering and making away in a burst of light once Michael has freed it was one of those predictable and yet just incredibly endearing ST moments.

1.06: In which it's time for another round of everyone's favourite dysfunctional Vulcan family saga. Luckily for me, since I eat this stuff up with a spoon.



You know, if the Michael Burnham/Sylvia Tilly friendship gave me the impression it started because Fuller wanted genderswapped Paris/Kim from Voyager, this episode's scenes between Michael and Sarek make me suspect they - and Michael's entire Vulcan related backstory - owe their existence to some of the other writers having written lots of Spock and Sarek tales in their youth after having watched Sarek's introduction episode in TOS, and wanting a genderswapped Spock version, too. I don't mind a bit, because the execution of all the tropes was, I thought, well done. In order to give Michael her own dysfunctional parent/child relationship with Sarek, they created something which manages to be both different and similar. (While still being ic for Sarek.) (Otoh, it did continue the post TNG (meaning: DS9 was the first show to do this, in the baseball episode) tradition of presenting Vulcans as racist via not just the extremist who tried to kill Sarek but via the academy guy who told him Sarek would have to choose between Spock and Michael in terms of who'd get admitted. Sigh.) (Otoh, great facial acting from James Frain when it sinks in with Sarek that he's been given the milder version of a Vulcan Sophie's Choice scenario.) So you have Michael who tried to be more Vulcan than Vulcan and succeeded with flying colours, only to be sabotaged by the a) racist academy guy who told Sarek only one of his "not quite Vulcan" kids would be accepted and made him choose, and b) Sarek not telling her the truth but letting her believe she didn't pass the tests.

(While we're at comparing to fictional precedents, the reveal that the reason why Sarek's mind kept returning to this particular memory wasn't that he thought Michael had failed him but his shame that he failed Michael that day reminded me of what JKR did with "Snape's Worst Memory", i.e. the readers and Harry at first assume the reason why this is Snape's most awful memory is that he got bullied by the Marauders in front of everyone in it, until the Deathly Hallows reveal that for Snape, the reason why this was the worst was that he called trying-to-help-him Lily "Mudblood" and thus lost her for good that day.)

The icing on the dysfunctional family cake was of course that once he's up and mending, Sarek refuses to talk about the whole event, which is pure Journey To Babel style again, and ensures continuing tension, with Michael taking the whole thing differently from Spock in that she neither lets Sarek off the hook for what he's done nor pretends it didn't happen nor cuts him off on her part but lays out her terms. Mind you, I could have done without Tyler telling her and us that her contradictory emotions are "human", because I always thought the way most (not all) ST shows presented being human and the human way of dealing with emotion at the non plus ultra annoyed me, but there we are. Otoh the flashbacks also had Amanda in them (who's the actress, btw? She seems vaguely familiar), encouraging Michael to explore her humanity because she can be human and Vulcan at the same time, and that, I'm on board with.

Meanwile, in the "Lorca is the shadiest Captain" arc: his friend the Admiral comes on board to check up on him in person on the sound reasoning that Lorca more than likely faked those psych evaluations, pushes his crew in ways that aren't good for them and probably should not be in command (btw: hooray for turning the "interfering admiral bothers our good Captain" ST cliché in use since TOS upside down!), he tries to distract her with sex, and when it doesn't work first suggests her for replacing Sarek as negotiator with the Klingons and then, when the Klingons capture her, doesn't rush to her rescue but leaves it up to ST Command. Note that if the episode had him refuse to rescue her or let him signal to the Klingons to capture her, it would have marked him as irredeemable evil, but apparently the show wants to keep its options open for Lorca-as-ambigous and thus lets him make the suggestion she should do the negotiating without knowing whether or not the Klingon offer to talk was straightforward, at this point apparantly simply hoping a week or two postponing might get her to change her mind, and then leave the "rescue or not" question up to Starfleet, again probably gambling they won't order the rescue but not knowing for sure. That he does this towards a woman who cares for him and whom he claims to care for in order to keep his command still makes it revolting, of course.

It also makes it neatly ironic that in the same episode where she sees Sarek has let her down and decides not to strive for his approval anymore, Michael essentially replaces him with, of all the people, Lorca, as the parent figure who, as Tilly helpfully spells out for us, "adopted" her. And yet the episode doesn't present her as stupid for doing so; she has no idea about all the shadiness, and as far as she knows, Lorca went out of his way to give her another chance in general and in this episode in particular allowed her to rescue her foster father against the odds while also making sure she herself would be cared for and saved.

As for Tyler: way to empathic and functional for someone who got tortured and raped for seven months, if you ask me. I'm still holding out for "double agent".

Lastly: this katra sharing between Sarek and Michael makes it look somewhat ridiculous that everyone is so surprised McCoy ended up with Spock's katra in ST III, instead of assuming that to be the case at once, but then Sarek at first there thought that Kirk, not McCoy, was the last person to touch Spock. Also, does that mean Picard and Michael (if she's still alive in TNG times) are mindlinked as well?

Comments

[kore]

I'm figuring they are setting Lorca up as the daddy figure for the fic inevitable rebellion that will come when Michael finds out his true colours and will probably either have to go against Ash or convince him of her cause, and maybe convince her old crew members too. At least I'm hoping that's where the series goes. Lorca is collecting a bunch of unconventional, possibly damaged, reckless people for his crew, and it was nutty to send them on an unauthorized risky rescue mission, as Admiral Cornwell points out. I really liked her and she BETTER NOT BE DEAD, as that would be three women in six eps! Not a good track record.

Sonequa Martin-Green continues to be the MVP, like in her little closing monologue about her conflicting feelings.

[vonniek]

I think they are making a lot of interesting character choices - Lorca is shady as fuck and the show does not shy away from that. There will be a reckoning down the road, with Michael on the other side of the fight, no doubt, in another act of major insubordination against her captain. The friendship between Michael and Tilly is ADORABLE and Tilly is a ray of sunshine among this rather dour lot of characters.

Re. Ash Tyler: On a purely story level, I think it would be really interesting to have him turn out to be a double agent. But on the metatextual as well as optics level, it would make me recoil to see the only actor with a Muslim background among the cast play a character who is radicalized/turned and made to infiltrate Discovery for a future act of sabotage. So my hope is that Ash will eventually show some cracks underneath that genial and smooth exterior and we'll get a thoughtful storyline dealing with his PTSD including recovery from months of sexual assaults (media rarely deals with this in depth when the victim is male.)

[selenak]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Cornwell isn't dead, not least because we saw both Georgiou and Landry die on screen. This show doesn't seem to be one holding back if it really wants to kill off people. Presumably Cornwell will either return at a dramatic moment to reveal the truth about Lorca to Michael, or conversely Lorca will get into a position where it will be his command versus her life, with no gamble involved, and no passive inaction, i.e. he'll either have to save her and give up his command, or keep is command and actively kill her, in which case I further speculate he'll redeem himself, save her and die immediately after (or in the course of the rescue mission). Either way, I doubt he'll be Captain in the second season (if we get one), because long term wise, I think that's Michael's arc - becoming Captain. Not the way she and Philippa thought it would happen in the pilot, but she'll get there. Mind you: I could also see Saru becoming Captain in the season finale (either by deposing Lorca or after his death), with Michael as first officer in s2, with, again, the long term arc being that she becomes Captain at the end of the show.

Lorca, whether they'll have him fall into complete villaindom or not, isn't a character you can maintain as Captain for longer than one season without either making your heroes look stupid/spineless/duped/shady themselves for going along with his methods long term wise, to see nothing of Starfleet as an organization. So: either he's deposed, or he dies a redemptive death. (Saving Cornwell, saving the crew - which would fit thematically given his backstory - take your pick.)

[selenak]

So true about Tilly! I can see your meta point about Ash Tyler. Hmmmmm.

[kore]

Presumably Cornwell will either return at a dramatic moment to reveal the truth about Lorca to Michael, or conversely Lorca will get into a position where it will be his command versus her life, with no gamble involved, and no passive inaction, i.e. he'll either have to save her and give up his command, or keep is command and actively kill her, in which case I further speculate he'll redeem himself, save her and die immediately after (or in the course of the rescue mission).

Aww, I like Jason Isaacs, he's so weirdly magnetic.I do like the idea of him dying to save his new crew, tho, after he sacrificed his old one. I know they have two "arcs," one ending with episode 9 and then the remaining six starting up again in I think February, so I wonder if he'd be out then and the second act would be her as Captain. Or if the S1 is the story of how we get Captain Burnham, I'm all for that too.

Either way, I doubt he'll be Captain in the second season (if we get one), because long term wise, I think that's Michael's arc - becoming Captain. Not the way she and Philippa thought it would happen in the pilot, but she'll get there. Mind you: I could also see Saru becoming Captain in the season finale (either by deposing Lorca or after his death), with Michael as first officer in s2, with, again, the long term arc being that she becomes Captain at the end of the show.

Oh, yes! That would be neat. I hope they don't have some clash over becoming Captain between her and Saru, though, altho I guess they've set that up already. I'm a little worried Saru will choose to go down with Lorca ("I will protect my captain better than you protected yours"). It just got renewed fora second season, too, so if S2 is her story as Captain, I'd love it.

[kore]

Jason Isaacs is great, Sonequa Martin-Green is carrying the show beautifully but Mary Wiseman is the breakout star so far. Tilly really reminds me of Vir on Babylon 5. The bit with them ordering the breakfast burritos was too adorable.

it would make me recoil to see the only actor with a Muslim background among the cast play a character who is radicalized/turned and made to infiltrate Discovery for a future act of sabotage.

I am really hoping the theory he's a double agent (and the truly whacky idea that he's Voq somehow) is not happening, especially if they have him and Michael falling for each other and she trusts him only to be betrayed &c &c.

So my hope is that Ash will eventually show some cracks underneath that genial and smooth exterior and we'll get a thoughtful storyline dealing with his PTSD including recovery from months of sexual assaults (media rarely deals with this in depth when the victim is male.)

The actor could certainly do it, he's really expressive. and SO pretty I loved how they underplayed him outscoring Lorca, that was subtle. It's a really strong cast, although I'm hoping we see a bit more of the other people on the bridge.

-- As someone living in Seattle, the "well really you're from ISSAQUAH" bit was fucking hilarious, because this is a town where people will not hesitate to tell you that actually Kurt Cobain was from Abderdeen. Altho by that point in the future I'd expect "Issy" to have become part of Middle Greater Seattle, hah.

[monanotlisa]

Great review!

"As for Tyler: way to empathic and functional for someone who got tortured and raped for seven months, if you ask me. I'm still holding out for "double agent"."

I agree about that he seems WAY too functional and friendly; I must have missed the double agent clues in canon, though -- what happened that made fandom think this way? It'd be clever; we do know as of 1x06 that the Klingons are well capable of deception, but HOW?

[davetheanalyzer]

I doubt he'll be Captain in the second season (if we get one)

Whatever's going to happen captain-wise, apparently there will be a second season: http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/star-trek-discovery-renewal-season-2-cbs-all-access-1202596182/

[par_avion]

Enjoyed the reviews!

Amanda is being played by the same actress who was Jenny Schecter on The L-Word (MIa Kurshner).

[saturnofthemoon]

There's been speculation in several places that Tyler is Voq disguised as a Human. However, if that is true, I think his memories were altered as well as his appearance.

[selenak]

That's good to know!

[selenak]

I must have missed the double agent clues in canon, though -- what happened that made fandom think this way?

Part of it is Trek backstory. In the original "The Trouble with Tribbles" TOS episode, there was an undercover Klingon cosmetically altered to look human (not that difficult with the orignal Klingon make up). (The character, btw, was brought back in the DS9 Trek anniversary Tribble episode in a clever way.) Then you've got Deanna Troi undercover as a Romulan for an episode on ST: TNG, Kira Nerys going through an existential crisis in an episode where she seemingly finds out she's actually a Cardassian implanted with fake memories of being Bajoran Resistance (spoiler: she's not, but the way the episode originally was written she would have been, only to decide it doesn't matter because she is Kira now; in the end, the producers didn't want to alter the character's backstory that radically), on Voyager, you had seemingly Bajoran crew member Seska revealed to be an actual Cardassian (this time no take backs). For all I know, there was someone on Enterprise, too, I didn't watch enough Ent to know. Anyway, "character revealed to be person from current enemy people" has become a well established Trek trope, and 22nd medicine is certainly up to it by all these precedences. However, the Klingons as presented here at this point in time don't seem to know nearly enough about humans to pass that completely,so if Ash Tyler is a double agent, my money is more that he's really human but either has been brainwashed or has another reason.

Another reason is that "regular character gets thrown into prison with two people, one an obvious traitor (Mudd), one a brave fellow victim" in every spy story ever would scream that the other, trustworthy person is indeed the true danger.

And lastly, Discover-specific, when last we saw Voq and L'Rell on the wreck of Philippa Georgiu's ship, L'Rell (whose speciality is subterfuge) declared they needed to do something to push back against Kol (Klingon currently on top, who took the ship away from Voq by giving food to the crew etc; we saw him again when Cornell was captured in this episode) and convince people of Voq's worth. And they were on board a human vessel full of information the lives of its crew (shown when Voq had a look at the crew manifesto earlier). Plus there is the way the last two episodes emphasized the strategic importance of Discovery. So it would certainly make strategic sense for the Klingons to try and smuggle someone into the human ranks to find out what's what with this new technology, and L'Rell and Voq have additional motivation to do it without other Klingons noticing (since Voq is supposed to be starving to death on wrecked Federation ship as far as Kol knows).

[selenak]

Thank you for the information!

[selenak]

No kidding, and there's certainly more than enough Trek precedence for such a ploy, but in that case I would want an explanation as to where Voq and L'Rell got the human memories from. (Mudd?) Because just by going through Phlippa's crew manifesto, they wouldn't have been able to create a human persona that well.

[saturnofthemoon]

It’s my theory that they took the memories of the original Ash Tyler. Normally, I would doubt they had that technology in the 23rd century, but Discovery seems to have thrown the book out on anything I knew about Trek technology.

[selenak]

"How Michael Burnham becomes Captain Burnham" is what I'd place a lot of money on as the overall show arc, however long it lasts. Though obviously with her mutineering, it won't happen overnight. (Then again, given Kirk got promoted basically from cadet to Captain overnight in the Rebootverse...)

I like Jacon Isaacs, too. The one way I could see them keeping Lorca alive as a character beyond a first season is if he ends up as the kind of recurring villain with emotional ties to the hero whom the hero can't kill for that reason and has mixed feelings about, who sometimes is a foe and sometimes an ally by necessity, and who certainly can mess with the hero's mind based on their backstory. Certainly Michael owing Lorca her own second chance in Starfleet and basically her life, she'd have motivation to try and help him first after discovering how far he's gone, and if that's impossible would still find it difficult to destroy him. Mind you, the problem with this is that I can't see what Lorca would do for a living in such a scenario. Space pirate? Isaacs certainly has experience of playing pirates. ;) But Lorca doesn't strike me as the type, at least not based on what we've seen so far, he seems to need to believe that in the end he's justified because of the war etc., and if he turned pirate, that self justification wouldn't work anymore. Ditto if he'd become a mercenary working for the oppposition. So - what would he actually do if he survives and isn't a Starfleet Captain anymore?

[monanotlisa]

That last part I was wondering about -- the narrative hole Voq has left is quite palpable, which is ultimately what makes me think this is true...and his "it sounds human" comment; the way he easily killed Klingons in the simulation; the way he is extra-friendly to everybody.

I do agree that the Klingons at this point in time do not seem to have a good enough grasp of Earth culture, let alone cultures, to convincingly portray a human the way Ash Tyler behaves.

Does Trek also have soul or consciousness grafts?

[selenak]

No, but memory transplants are do-able. (At least they are in DS9; what Kira was told had happened was that a Cardassian agent named Iliana had not just been physically transformed into a Bajoran but had been given the real Kira's memories, with her own supressed. Iliana would have sincerely believed to be Kira until her original memories would be awoken by a trigger word.) That certainly would allow for some dramatic possibilities - do memories make a person, etc., what/who does someone with two sets of memories choose to be?

[4thofeleven]

L'Rell's actress is credited as being in being in 1.05, so I assume that's her as the ship's captain. Which to me all but confirms the Ash-is-Voq theory, because his timeline doesn't make sense otherwise - we know L'Rell's been stranded for six months, not commanding a prison ship.

[selenak]

Well, if it's her in 1.05, then I agree, it would not make sense otherwise. In which case, though, I'm voting artificial memories with the real ones buried and to be triggered later, because there's no way the Voq we saw in the first few episodes could fake this kind of knowledge of humanity consciously.

[monanotlisa]

Aha!

So, in line with the "losing EVERYTHING" warning L'Rell gives to Voq, Voq would be both transformed AND receive Ash Tyler's memory transplant...which would, indeed, make him act exactly like the warm-hearted man with a fondness for authority figures or other outstanding characters that we see on-screen.

Until someone triggers Voq with The Word, of course. Interesting. That does indicate that there will have to be another Klingon encounter...maybe even with L'Ren. I can't imagine she, clearly smart and used to intrigue, is sharing her infiltration plans with random Klingon soldiers...

[monanotlisa]

Same. It's not even that Ash has given tons of detail about his homelife; it's mostly that he acts too much like a human boy.

[monanotlisa]

Yep.

[selenak]

Yes, something like that. I forgot to mention in my previous comment: one of the producers/writers is A. Kurtzman, the very same who together with R. Orci wrote a lot of Alias. Remember Sydney finding out about her interlude as Julia in early s3? Something like that, only in reverse, could be the case. And of course it would FINALLY offer a good reason for redesigning the look for the Klingons in the first place. The old design would have made Voq instantly recognizable as Ash, if they're meant to be physically the same person, just with surgical alterations.

It also would make sense of the Klingon purity doctrine preached in the pilot; i.e. if Voq and Ash are the same, and he volunteered to become human as the biggest sacrifice for the cause from that pov, then my guess would be once he's got both sets of memories available he won't be able to go back to this again and will end up as a thematic counterpoint to Michael being both human and Vulcan by being both human and Klingon. It would be a very Star Trek thing if in the end (i.e. several seasons from now) peace is achieved by characters acting as the bridge between feuding people who belong to both and neither and have started out as outcasts.

[conuly]

1. The woman who plays Amanda is Mia Kirshner. She looks vaguely familiar to me too, but it turns out I've never seen anything she's been in except maybe that Are You Afraid of the Dark? episode, so I don't know.

2. And yet the episode doesn't present her as stupid for doing so; she has no idea about all the shadiness, and as far as she knows, Lorca went out of his way to give her another chance in general and in this episode in particular allowed her to rescue her foster father against the odds while also making sure she herself would be cared for and saved.

She would have a better idea of his general shady, skeevy behavior if she knew how emotionally manipulative he is. Which she doesn't, because her upbringing gave her no preparation for this. Which he's got to know. Asshole.

3. As for Tyler: way too empathic and functional for someone who got tortured and raped for seven months, if you ask me. I'm still holding out for "double agent".

Oh, definitely.

[conuly]

(spoiler: she's not, but the way the episode originally was written she would have been, only to decide it doesn't matter because she is Kira now; in the end, the producers didn't want to alter the character's backstory that radically)

That would've been better for that episode, but I'm not sure it would've been better for the whole series, so I guess that's an okay choice? When somebody invents the ability to go to alternate universes, I'm gonna take a brief hop to the one where they did go that route and see if I like their DS9 better than ours.

on Voyager, you had seemingly Bajoran crew member Seska revealed to be an actual Cardassian (this time no take backs).

Tangent: I am still pissed at the way they threw away what could've been a great personal arc in order to have Seska backstab her way into oblivion.

[selenak]

re: Seska, I hear you. I was all set to love her, with my fondness for Cardassians and their literal shades of grey, and then they make her an evil mcevil villainess with no inner conflict or shades of grey whatsoever.

To say nothing of the fact she's the first of a long line of smart women mysteriously attracted to Chakotay.

re: Kira, she was such a terrific, iconic character, that it's hard to imagine her with that radically different background. But I would like to check out that other show, too.

[conuly]

re: Kira, she was such a terrific, iconic character, that it's hard to imagine her with that radically different background. But I would like to check out that other show, too.

It's actually top on my list of things to check out in the alternate timelines, under "the Voyager where they didn't fuck up the Maquis and Seska storylines" and "The third Parable book" and "The Harry Potter where Dean's story took up more space and JKR can do math". And I'm gonna do it all while eating my favorite chips, from the universe where they're mad popular and never took out of production.

[selenak]

*can*t resist*

*puts on TWIN PEAKS soundtrack*

"That chewing gum you like is going to come back in style."

re: Voyager, though, I seem to recall that was one of the reasons why Ron Moore came up with BSG - he wanted to do the Voyager premise for real?

[conuly]

Yes. And that's why BSG starts off as a better show, though it lost steam near the end and Voyager got better... probably because Voyager was becoming a little more arc-based and Ron Moore was discovering that he hadn't plotted enough story for every season.

[lynnenne]

Mia Kurshner was also a featured guest star on The Vampire Diaires, if you watched that show. She played Elena's biological mother (although the character's name escapes me).

[lynnenne]

To say nothing of the fact she's the first of a long line of smart women mysteriously attracted to Chakotay.

BWAH. Preach.

[labingi]

Thanks for this! I really want to try out this series... but not enough to get a subscription to CBS. Will have to wait.

[monanotlisa]

the very same who together with R. Orci wrote a lot of Alias. Remember Sydney finding out about her interlude as Julia in early s3?

I do! Alias icon!

Something like that, only in reverse, could be the case.

Very well possible. *nod*

And of course it would FINALLY offer a good reason for redesigning the look for the Klingons in the first place.

Jeez. That's a long way to go for that storyline...but it seems so odd a choice in the world of 2017's costuming (evidenced in the excellent and not overdone Saru) that I am buying it.

my guess would be once he's got both sets of memories available he won't be able to go back to this again and will end up as a thematic counterpoint to Michael being both human and Vulcan by being both human and Klingon

Yes -- one particular species just by appearance, each of their selves shaped by a different culture. Two souls alas! are dwelling in my breast. ;)

[selenak]

And thus you deliver proof that you're not so Americanized as to not have that most quintessential German trait, the ability to have a Faust quote ready for each occasion. :) Mit Euch, Frau Doktor, zu parlieren, ist ehrenvoll und bringt Gewinn.

[selenak]

re: Mia Kirshner, having looked her up, no, I haven't seen anything she was in, and yet that sense of familiarity - odd!

[selenak]

As with American Gods, which was on Amazon Prime everywhere in the world except the US, this Discovery = Netflix for all non-Americans thing seems to indicate it has its advantages for a genre fan to live elsewhere right now.:)

(Comparison: When TNG was broadcast, we were two or so seasons behind in Germany, but the Brits weren't, and so when I was in London I used to return loaded with videos. This being before the DVD, even.)

[conuly]

I think it's something about how she acted as Amanda that seems so amazingly familiar - I keep thinking I saw a particular facial expression or head tilt or something. So maybe there's another similar-looking actress who happens to make use of some similar mannerisms.

[zahrawithaz.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed the Sarek episode, even thought I'm generally more of a Romulan fan; the twist was easy to predict but worked very well for all characters concerned, and I loved Michael's closing monologue. And it was a good use of canon--the method as well as the material felt Star Trek, if you follow me. (Generally this episode felt much more balanced among the cast, too, which I also liked.)

Although I am now thinking that the whole Vulcan logic = masculinity thing feels uncomfortably obvious, and I'm wondering if the difference is in my more experienced brain or how they played it.

Mia Kirshner is justly know for The L Word, where she was brilliant at playing both a terrible character (in the Watsonian sense) in an often terrible show (in the Doylist one). But her presence here likely draws more from her work as madam of the town brothel on Defiance, the SyFy show that was seen as a Star Trek successor for having ST-style rubber-forehead aliens in the main cast. She's done a lot of things, but that seems like the one you most likely might have seen vidded.

[selenak]

Although I am now thinking that the whole Vulcan logic = masculinity thing feels uncomfortably obvious

Hm, I didn't read it like that. For starters, bias and racism (and both the "logic extremist" at the start who tries to blow up Sarek and the academy guy in the flashback are clearly displaying it are in fact (negative) emotions, and they're clearly meant to be shown acting irrationally, i.e. emotionally, not, in fact, logically. Ditto for Sarek himself, with shame and pride at various points motivating him. So it didn't come across as Sarek = mind, Amanda = heart with that saying something about the masculine and the feminine in general to me but fitting with the post TNG characterisation of Vulcans as somewhat racist and absolutely clueless to their own emotions.(Well, okay, the later part is TOS as well.) Which I regret, but which certainly isn't new to Discovery. In what few early Enterprise s1 episodes I saw, T'Pol (female) before I quit watching was like that as well. (I also watched the fourth season due to bimo praising it, and she's not like that anymore there, but all the other Vulcans, female and male alike, are. Sigh.

[vilakins]

We finally got round to watching the series after feeling a bit ho-hum about the pilot, and I'm not pretty much hooked.

Since ep 6 is the one we saw last night, I can start commenting - I'm so glad someone else is watching.

First up, I don't trust the new guy, Ash Tyler. He seems nice and sympathetic, but he also feels like a plant, the Klingons didn't seem to do much more than torture Lorca, their escape was too easy, and "he fights like a Klingon". Hmm. [narrows eyes at him]

Random thoughts:

How do tribbles multiply? Does it need more than one, and if not, why isn't the ship full of them?

If a mycellium drive isn't used in Kirk's time, then something bad is going to happen to render it useless. Maybe the mycellia will object, or become depleted like Ripper the tardigrade and they realise they're playing with the fabric of the universe.

The tardigrade forced out all its water to go into a coma-like state, yet when it's spaced (yay, Burnham, for doing that) it puffs up right there in vacuum. I don't think it grabbed water from other places as it only connected once it was its normal size. Poor tardigrade. Bad, bad science but I hope we get to see it again.

What the hell was with Stamets's reflection in the mirror? It's reflected light; it shouldn't have life of its own (science again). I like that he and the doctor are lovers though. Well done, Star Trek.

I so love bouncy Tilly. I think she's getting through to Burnham, whose Vulcan facade cracked a few times there.

I really didn't like Lorca to begin with. He seems warmer with Burnham and I'm liking him more for that complexity - that he cares about her, but is so driven he'll send his admiral into danger in the hopes he can retain command. Also, blowing up his entire crew and surviving despite that shouldn't be a recommendation to be given another ship, let alone one as powerful as Discovery.

OT but Burnham's name shouldn't be Michael, but Michal. Seriously, Americans, there's a difference. Michal (said the same in German as in Hebrew) was a daughter of Saul and wife of David. Misspelling her name as Michael (the -el bit meaning "God") is worse than all those Racheals. I could accept the pronunciation if the spelling was right.

Also OT: I've also been watching Orville which I approached with caution but found to my surprise I really like too. It has a real TOS feel, however much Macfarlane denies it. It's great having two SF series on at once.

[selenak]

Michael versus Michal: atually, Tilly in episode 3 says after learning the name of her roommate: "The only female Michael I've ever heard of is Michael Burnham, the mutineer, and you're not her, are you?" (Whereupon she realises that yes, it's THE Michael Burnham.) So the male spelling is deliberate. For whatever reason her biological parents called her Michael, not Michal, after the archangel, not David's first wife.

Why Lorca got the Discovery given he blew up the Buran: my own theory is that this was actually a plus in his favour for one particular reason: the spore drive, which is unique and under no circumstances should fall into the hands of the Klingons. Presumably some admirals thought that other Captains might hesitate to blow up their ship, but this guy, etc.

Whether or not Lorca would do it again: kernezelda thought the next episode (I think it was episode 7? Maybe it was 8) argued against it, you'll read why in the comments.

All your other comments I can, sadly, not reply to, for fear of spoiling you!

[vilakins]

I've heard of other female Michaels, all American: Michael Learned the actor, and a couple of minor characters I can't remember. It's bothered me in the past. I've always assumed it to be a misspelling of Michal, unless there's a move to appropriate the name, like Brook, Evelyn, and other formerly male-only names.

Ahhh, OK!

I've now seen 7 and 8, so I'll go and look. I have to wait to see more as Greg is away tonight. [is impatient]

[vilakins]

Oh and was the Buran a mycelium-drive ship? I totally missed that. I thought he did it to spare them torture.

I'd like to know how he escaped when they couldn't, and for that matter, how Mudd did. I assume with the contrivance of the Klingons again so he could track down Discovery and capture it? But then, how did he find it in the vastness of the galaxy considering its instantaneous jumps?

[selenak]

Oh and was the Buran a mycelium-drive ship?

No, not at all. You misunderstood me. You wondered why Lorca, having destroyed his last ship (with crew) in the past, got an assignment as important as the Discovery. I said that in this particular (war) situation, him having proven the capability of blowing up his ship and crew rather than let them fall into enemy hands might have been a plus in the eyes of the admirality, given that Discovery's spore drive is the sole technological advantage they currently have and must not fall into Klingon hands.

How Lorca made it off the Buran to begin with when the rest of the crew couldn't: we've not been told so far. I'm assuming via shuttle, escape pod, whatever, but there's another possibility that has to do with a fannish theory I can't yet tell you about.

How Mudd tracked down Discovery: good question. Though given that at the start of that episode, there's a party going on, in which many of the crew participate, I'm assuming that the ship is currently having a period of rest with no immediate mission scheduled, which might be how Mudd tracked it down.

BTW, the Mudd/time loop episode was where kernezelda pointed out that in that episode, Lorca does not choose the option of destroying the ship in any of the scenarios, but would rather save the crew, which might or might not indicate that if the fate of the Buran was one reason why he got the assignment in the first place, whoever gave it miscalculated.

[vilakins]

Yes, I remember when he offered the ship to Mudd, but that was part of their very successful con. That ep was very good, and felt quite like updated TOS. I think destroying the Buran might have been understandable in the light of Klingon cruelty had others escaped, but captains are meant to go down / up with their ships. However I do sort of like him now, though I was highly suspicious to start with, and that collection of his is rather creepy.

So far I like all of them, esp Burnham, but reserve judgement on both Lorca and Tyler while enjoying making surmises.

[kalypso]

On Sarek's choice, I originally thought he picked Spock because he was his (biological) son, and that he was ashamed of letting emotion influence his decision. But it has since occurred to me that he may have thought that, if the academy guy's racism was widespread, Spock had a better chance of seeing it off, since he does at least look Vulcan, and Michael might be better away from there. At any rate, he could probably convince himself that his decision was logical, though he might later recognise that his motives were mixed, and feel shame about that as well as his failure to be transparent with her.