Those ugly little details...

[selenak]

I finally got myself a Harry Potter icon. Behold the first picture of Miranda Richardson as Rita Skeeter, journalist extraordinaire, in the upcoming Goblet of Fire.*g*

***

Having read a lot of good reviews, both in newspapers and on lj, of The Aviator, I'm really looking forward to seeing it once it starts on January 20th here. However, one complaint by an otherwise glowing review made me think of something which isn't just a symptom of biopics but also of many entirely fictional films set in another period. The complaint in question was:

There is no reference to Hughes's anti-semitism or right-wing, near-fascist politics (…).

Now, my Howard Hughes knowledge is limited to having read Ava Gardner's memoirs and Katherine Hepburn's memoirs, and having seen F for Fake by Orson Welles, which deals at length with the guy who produced fake Hughes memoirs in the 70s. So I have absolutely no idea whether or not he was an antisemite. But it wouldn't surprise me if he had been; sadly, it would fit with the times of his youth. Moving on to other films, you can bet that one of the earliest and most successful films about Charles Lindbergh, The Spirit of St. Louis, leaves out both Lindbergh's anti-Semitism and (naturally, since this is about him flying over the Atlantic in the 20s) his pro-Hitler stance. Two years ago, one of our most prestigious tv productions in Germany was a three-part-movie dealing with the family Mann (Thomas, Heinrich, Klaus, Erika et al.). Starting after WWI, said production not only got around Thomas Mann's fervent nationalism and war enthusiasm in the first world war but also around the casual anti-Semitism both he and his brother displayed in their Wilhelminian youth. (Check out their letters and early works.)

This isn't all about whitewashing. You can make a reasonable argument that the fact Thomas Mann made anti-Semitic remarks as a young man isn't crucial to his personality; that at any rate he changed his attitude later on, and that there was so much else going on in his life which was more important, and deserved to be examined more in the limited time a tv series offers. For all I know, this is true of Howard Hughes and The Aviator as well - the reviews I've read don't sound as if he's presented as perfect, after all. However, I think this touches on the same reason why, say, in what was intended as a popular box office film, The Patriot, Mel Gibson's character does not own slaves, he pays his black workers, no matter how unlikely that is in 18th century South Carolina. Or why in an actual box office hit like Gladiator, one of the most glaring ahistorical elements is having Marcus Aurelius and the sympathetic part of the Roman characters wanting to reintroduce the republic. We've seen the horrible, horrible result of anti-Semitism. We know that slavery is utterly and completely wrong. And outside of fantasy movies, we're deeply uneasy with monarchies and dictatorships.

Ergo, characters the audience is supposed to sympathize with can be flawed in other regards, but they must not be racists, antisemites, or antidemocratic. Which is no problem if you make a contemporary movie, but demands some editing in most stories set at in an earlier age.

To give myself a counter-argument: but if a character the audience can like and sympathize with is shown as racist/anti-Semitic/anti-democratic, couldn't that lead to the audience regarding these kind of attitudes as acceptable as well?

I can't quite make up my mind on that one. A few months ago, there was a minor kerfuffle in Harry Potter fandom when jennyo wrote a blistering post quintessentially boiling down to the question: if Draco Malfoy would use the term "nigger" instead of "mudblood", would you still find him hot and/or likeable? Among the many arguments used by various people in reply was that the "pureblood" attitude re: Muggles and muggle-born witches and wizards was more a class than a racism issue, and that at any rate it was fantasy, and thus not applicable to RL. But I don't think anyone at the time actually replied to the question originally posed with "Yes". Now Draco isn't an ideal example, because obviously his creator never intended him to be "hot" or sympathetic and is somewhat bewildered, poor woman, that anyone would think he is. But we can find fantasy or sci-fi characters actually intended to be sympathetic who display racist attitudes, though usually this gets pointed out by other characters. (Case in point: my guy Londo who is a blatant imperialist which everything that entails.) In any case, in a fantasy or sci-fi context this probably is easier to take because we don't know people of the race/religion discriminated against in real life. So, Quark turning the tables on Sisko and accusing him of racism vis a vis the Ferengi is an intriguing and powerful moment early in DS9. But the Ferengi aren't "real". Kira can call them disgusting little trolls throughout the show without anyone in the audience flinching, or either losing sympathy for Kira or practicing discrimination on Ferengi in turn, whereas if they were a human race this would be impossible.
There are films which portray characters sympathetically who are racists without leaving themselves open to the charge of encouraging racism in the audience; In the Heat of the Night, for example. (Which couldn't be more clear about its racism = wrong message.) Rod Steiger's character qualifies as both a good guy and a racist. But he's not the hero of the movie, he's the foil of the hero, who is embodied by Sidney Poitier. Also, that was, at its time of making, a contemporary story, and a fictional one. Right now, I can't think of a biopic and/or historical film managing this particular tight rope act…

Comments

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

This is always a tricky situation, but in a case such as this, I believe that it would be very difficult to include his anti-Semitism and have people sympathize with him, and that is pretty crucial for a story whose protagonist is already at times unlikable. Even if it were portrayed as being part of his mental illness, a factor such as this would divert many people's attention away from the focus of the film. An issue such as anti-Semitism has a tendency to overshadow a story and blind people to its other aspects. I know that I myself might have reacted like that. So unless it's a film about a man definedby his anti-Semitism (such as Hitler), or a film whose story would be destroyed without including its innate anti-Semitism (The Merchant of Venice), I personally am not offended by its removal. Howard Hughes had much worse problems, which were depicted in detail, including his obsessive and possessive nature (memorably portrayed in a scene with Ava Gardner, who discovers that he has put bugs in her house and a tap on her phone, to keep constant track of her), so, as you said, this is not a case of whitewashing.

[searose.livejournal.com]

What about Jefferson in Paris, though I don't know if that's a good example because I've only seen a few scenes with Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Really, what Jefferson thought about slavery versus the historical facts is a bit of a conundrum.

Most free blacks in South Carolina lived in the area around Charleston, though at the time of the Revolutionary War, free blacks would be a very small percetage of the total black population. Since I think the farm/plantation in The Patriot was in the Lowcountry (filmed around Charleston as it was, iirc), then:

The first census, in 1790, found 8,089 white persons, 7,684 slaves, and 586 free blacks in Charleston.

from here (http://www.sciway.net/hist/chicora/freepersons.html).

So, possible yet barely plausible on that one.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

Have you seen Cobb about baseball legend Ty Cobb? The movie is about the relationship between Ty Cobb & his biographer Al Stump. Stump learns, and we see, Cobb's full character, drunk, rascist, mean, and a damn fine baseball player. Tommy Lee Jones does a great job with an unfliching portrayal of Cobb and Robert Wuhl is good as Al Stump.

Through out the movie, as Stump gets to know more about Cobb, he struggles with what kind of biography to write, Cobb the hero or Cobb the man.

The movie is an adaptation of the book that Stump wrote about trying to write about Cobb and it does a great job of exploring the questions of how to paint a man who is both a hero and a rascist. And, by laying it all out there, the movie manages to paint both pictures into the picture of one complex man. The movie also looks at how biographers and the audience needs the hero as much as the hero needs the audience.

Rob Shelton's other baseball movie Bull Durham is far better known, and Cobb isn't perfect. It raises far more questions than it can answer, or at least answer well, but it is memorable, to me, for trying.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

No, I haven't seen it, though I did see Bull Durham. (On an airplane; generally I try to avoid baseball movies.) It sounds really interesting, though, and I'll watch out for it.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

The Patriot was originally intended to be about the Swamp Fox, Francis Marion, a very important and controversial figure in SC history. The character was fictionalized so that he could be more sympathetic. It was not just the fact that Marion owned slaves that was changed but his history of violence against the Cherokee Indians. I last studied Marion about 15 years ago but I'm sure I could turn up some links more to the point than my memory that show what was whitewashed by fictionalizing that story.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Having watched Jefferson in Paris, I'd say that the problem here is that Jefferson is utterly enigmatic. You can read his relationship with Sally Hemmings as being inspired by being frustrated in the (platonic) one with the French lady he's in love with, or by mutual attraction, or even in some Freudian way by the relationship with his daughter, via transference. In any case, it doesn't tell us what he thinks of slavery.

The most pointed scene re: slavery is when Sally's brother, having figured out that in France he's a free man, leaves Jefferson's service, but again, we don't have Jefferson launching into a "but slavery is right!" speech on the occasion.

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

I think I can understand a whitewash of racism and/or anti-semitism when it's not a dominant thing in the person's life, and it's not hagiography. I was actually thinking, Henry Ford - there's someone whose prejudices shouldn't be taken out of the story of his life with the time and money he devoted to anti-semitism but then I can't think of any recent films about Henry Ford and that may be why. It's an interesting conundrum.

[searose.livejournal.com]

The most pointed scene re: slavery is when Sally's brother, having figured out that in France he's a free man, leaves Jefferson's service, but again, we don't have Jefferson launching into a "but slavery is right!" speech on the occasion.

Wait, is that the Heming who took training as a French chef? Iirc, in real life he was persuaded to come back to America and was again a slave. Did the movie show that? (If I'm remembering my history correctly, there's no known reason why Jefferson's slave chef returned rather than remain in France free. He just did.)

Sally, I think, was the unacknowledged half-sister of Jefferson's deceased wife. It really has been a long time since I've read anything about that, although I do remember Jefferson kept Sally far, far away from the public's view after she came back with him, had so many children, one son who was a redhead who had to be sent away because he looked so much like Jefferson.

[searose.livejournal.com]

I think you'd enjoy Cobb. Tommy Lee Jones had some amazing scenes as a man with little control over his temper or his hate. Victimization of self and everyone around him. A particularly dangerous man-child/animal, with moments of calm.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

I don't think, if you're writing a serious fic, that 'the victims aren't real' should be used as a reason for justifying something which is inherently bad. That said, it's never really bothered me that I might be lessening the very clearly there bigotry in some of the characters I like - it troubles me more that I might be creating some where there's none in canon, in the case of Delenn (who really did want all the humans dead in my fics) or Lennier (who I refuse to believe grew up during the war and lost family on the Black Star, and still doesn't have any problem at all with humans). I find it a lot more interesting to write characters I disagree with.

As for whether such characters can be sympathetic - yes, definitely. Which might be a result of fantasy and sci-fi being safe places to explore bigotry etc., since most of the characters I can think of who are presented as sympathetic despite being racist are in those genres. (There's only one I can think of who isn't, Andy Sipowicz in NYPD Blue, although I'm sure I'll think up some other examples the second I hit 'submit comment'). I suppose you could justify it by saying that the bigotry is only a small part of the character and by most criteria they're great people, but that approach bothers me a little - yeah, maybe they are, but that's not exactly addressing the issue. Plus, with characters like Draco, it's hardly just an incidental thing. (I don't find Draco even vaguely interesting, but I think that's got more to do with him being whiny and rather two-dimensional.)

I think that we like them because they're interesting, and they're interesting because the terrible things they do and say are bound up with the parts of them which we can like and approve of. With Neroon, say, there's clearly a connection between his xenophobia in S2 (and the rest of the series, really, but most strikingly there) and his loyalty to his own people. It's difficult to write sympathetically. Maybe we just like a challenge...

[searose.livejournal.com]

The Patriot was about *Francis Marion*? Forget whitewashing, what about everything else? He.. was the provisional governor of South Carolina when the Revolutionary War started, and he left his civilian post for a military commission. Marion wasn't cooling his heels on a farm.

Ooh, links, please! (If not a trial to you, mind this.) I should read about this.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was him. It's been eons since I saw the movie, and I saw it only once, but I think in the film he remained in Paris.

The movie did include the idea that Sally was the unacknowledged half sister of Jefferson's late wife, though. I remember that at the time when it was shown, an old American friend of mine insisted that the affair with Sally was just slander by Jefferson's opponents, but I think I read somewhere that DNA tests on Sally's descendants proved the case, no?

Also: what do you think Jefferson thought about slavery?

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

Marion never cooled his heels on a farm. (also, since you know of Francis Marion I have to ask, are you from SC?)

I'm a little short on time today, but here is some stuff I found quickly.
Info culled from google:
-Francis Marion's wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion) entry mentions it.
-Guardian (UK) (http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Exclusive/0,,332358,00.html) article (also on topic to this whole discussion)
-Screenplay review (http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2659)
-Mason Locke Weems' lauditory bio of Marion (http://www.bookrags.com/books/wfmar/PART1.htm) (historically fascinating)
-National Review article Gibson's Revolution (http://www.nationalreview.com/17july00/goldberg071700.html) and Guest commentary (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/commentprint062600b.html").

A very quick database serach pulled up the National Review articles and other citations of possible interest:
Olsen, M. The patriot. Film Comment v. 36 no. 4 (July/August 2000) p. 74-5
Cardyn, L. Sexualized Racism/Gendered Violence: Outraging the Body Politic in the Reconstruction South. Michigan Law Review v. 100 no. 4 (February 2002) p. 675-867
Bowman, J. The patriot. The American Spectator v. 33 no. 7 (September 2000) p. 64-5
Kellman, S.G. The patriot. Southern Quarterly v. 38 no. 4 (Summer 2000) p. 133-4 Peer Reviewed
Moore, L. Capturing America's fight for freedom [making of movie, The patriot; cover story]. Smithsonian v. 31 no. 4 (July 2000) p. 44-53

I still have that query up on my computer and can probably get full text for most of those citations if you are interest.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I find it a lot more interesting to write characters I disagree with.

Oh, same here. If I were writing the characters I agree with, I'd be solely writing Vir for B5 (instead of very occasionally), and probably Jake Sisko for DS9. Instead, I write about Londo and Quark and Kai Winn.*g*

Plus, with characters like Draco, it's hardly just an incidental thing. (I don't find Draco even vaguely interesting, but I think that's got more to do with him being whiny and rather two-dimensional.)

Me too. Snape is interesting, Draco is not. But yes, the "mudblood!" attitude is a quintessential character trait in canon.

I think that we like them because they're interesting, and they're interesting because the terrible things they do and say are bound up with the parts of them which we can like and approve of.

Still, do you think it makes a difference that these characters are fictional, whereas a biopic or historical film inherently claims to tell a "true" story? I.e. it's one thing to appreciate Neroon, but another to root for, hm, say, Rommel?

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

ran another query, this time via proquest:
1. The Patriot: Round Two of Mel Gibson's War with the British
McBride, Joseph. Irish America. New York: Nov 30, 2000. Vol. XVI, Iss. 5; p. 118
2. The Patriot John Jimenez. Video Store Magazine. Duluth: Sep 24-Sep 30, 2000. Vol. 22, Iss. 39; p. 24 (1 page)
3. The Patriot Boseman, Keith. Hyde Park Citizen. Chicago, Ill.: Jul 20, 2000. Vol. 11, Iss. 33; p. 17
4. THE PATRIOT: MEL GIBSON INTERVIEW Miller, Prairie. Star Interviews. Rye: Jul 17, 2000. p. 1
5. Readers Doing Battle Over 'The Patriot' and History; [Home Edition]
Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 15, 2000. p. 4
6. THE PATRIOT Cineman Syndicate. Rye: Jul 3, 2000. p. 1
7. 'The Patriot:' nothing more than Hollywood flimflam; [ALL Edition]
David Sterritt, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor. Boston, Mass.: Jun 30, 2000. p. 15
8. Presencia HISTORICA: Protagonizado por Mel Gibson, 'The Patriot' recrea detalladamente un pasaje de la revolucion de este pais
Rodriguez, Juan. La Opinion. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 30, 2000. Vol. 74, Iss. 289; p. 1C
9. Review / Film: `The Patriot' Prettifies Life, Liberty in Pursuit Of Box-Office Happiness --- Gibson Is Heroic as Colonial Warrior, But Can't Save This Syrupy Flick; `Perfect Storm,' Imperfect Ending
By Debra Jo Immergut. Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jun 30, 2000. p. W.1
10. THE PATRIOT; In this film, Mel routs the British once again
BEN STEELMAN, Staff Writer. Morning Star. Jun 29, 2000. p. 1.D.3.D
11. Movie Review; Give Him Liberty or Give Him Death--Lots of It; Mel Gibson lifts up 'The Patriot' but gets caught between the film's sentimental and hellishly violent sides.; [Home Edition]
KENNETH TURAN. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 28, 2000. p. 1
12. 'The Patriot': Red, White and Kablooey; [FINAL Edition]
Stephen Hunter. The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 2000. p. C.01
13. The Battle Plan Behind 'The Patriot'; Revolutionary War films have been notoriously poor performers at the box office. But the makers of the Mel Gibson movie set out to win this fight.; [Home Edition]
BILL DESOWITZ. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 27, 2000. p. 1
14. War Is Hell, Even If It's Revolutionary; Movies * 'The Patriot' is being criticized for its depiction of an 11-year-old killing a British soldier. It reflects those times, the filmmakers say.; [Home Edition]
BILL DESOWITZ. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 27, 2000. p. 5
15. 'The Patriot' a stirring tale of the Revolution: Film shows Blacks also joined struggle
Roberts, Kimberly C.. Philadelphia Tribune. Philadelphia, Pa.: Jun 27, 2000. Vol. 116, Iss. 65; p. 3B
16. Mel Gibson se rebela contra los ingleses en 'The Patriot'
La Voz de Houston. Houston, Tex.: May 17, 2000. Vol. XXI, Iss. 20; p. 6
17. Fast Forward: Web's Reach Forces Hollywood to Rethink America-First Policy --- As Movie Buzz Goes Global, Studios Speed Releases For Restive Fans Abroad --- England Awaits `The Patriot' By Bruce Orwall and Evan Ramstad. Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jun 12, 2000. p. A.1
18. SUMMER SNEAKS; They Did Their Homework; The men responsible for 'Independence Day' and 'Godzilla' hope history repeats itself with 'The Patriot.'; [Home Edition] GREGG KILDAY. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: May 7, 2000. p. 5

didn't include Marion in that query so that is a more general sample but it would be interesting to see how often Marion got mentioned in more blurb like articles.

I love internet databases.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Tommy Lee Jones being an excellent actor, I can believe it. Must check out this film.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It's similar with Richard Wagner. I can't imagine a biopic that doesn't include his antisemitism for obvious reasons, but actually there is one from the 50s in which this is completely ignored. Nothing recent, though.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

And of course Cobb left most of his estate to build a hospital and clinic in his impoverished small hometown in rural Georgia. We drove through there last week, and it's the only hospital for 40 miles.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Still, do you think it makes a difference that these characters are fictional, whereas a biopic or historical film inherently claims to tell a "true" story?

Yes. Probably not in the sense that it makes their characters any less complex (although maybe in the sense that we'd find that complexity as interesting), or that their attitudes are any more or less excusable, but it definitely makes it easier to think and write about their thoughts. IMHO, anyway - I'm sure there are writers that could (and do) do the same with real historical figures, but I don't think I'd be able to.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I suppose my historian's bent is showing here. I think you have to judge people by the standards of their time. Nothing irritates me more than having people act on ideals that are completely outside the debate in their time.

Medieval feminists
Roman communists
Ancient Egyptian abolitionists

I recently read an Alexander the Great who abhorred slavery and racism, and who preached international cooperation and female liberation. WHAT???? It just makes me want to throw sloppy scholarship out the window.

I have no problem with a character having negative attitudes or espousing views that "a modern" would consider wrong if they are in keeping with the mores of their time.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

It has been a while since I've seen Cobb but I think that is mentioned in the movie. I think it is one of the many things that Stump tries to make sense of when writing about Cobb.

[searose.livejournal.com]

Something from Monticello (http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html) about the DNA tests.

Also: what do you think Jefferson thought about slavery?

I think he was a landowner in an agrarian society where slavery was a source of labor that over time netted the most profit due to the technology available in large-scale farming. During a time when Africans weren't viewed as being on par with Europeans as far as worth as human beings.

In short, a vicious circle whose loop he chose not to break.

I've got issues with slavery, so I don't know how objective I can be. A line of my family did own slaves, on a small, small farm, and I was surprised to find out that *nobody* left that farm after the Civil War. Why?

Because one white family had owned a black family for more than two generations, and no one was going to turn out the old that they'd known since birth to starve in the Reconstruction. So everyone just stayed where they were and continued on for half a century together on that small farm. No white columns, but a hard-scrabble farm in the foothills of the Appalachians. And it was *wrong* from the premise, but my great-grandmother knew only her siblings/relatives and the black kids around her until she went to school. It became a situation that 'had always been', until deaths and last wills finally broke the farm into too small of pieces to be farms.

The whole thing begs to be a yes/no answer, but what ended up happening was complicated all over the South, before and after Abolition.

[searose.livejournal.com]

(also, since you know of Francis Marion I have to ask, are you from SC?)

Yes, conceived, born and raised in South Carolina. Currently and for the next thirty years paying property taxes in this state along with a home mortgage.

Thanks for the Swamp Fox links. I appreciate the time you took. You have supplied a plethora I'm going to explore.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

The whole thing begs to be a yes/no answer, but what ended up happening was complicated all over the South, before and after Abolition.

And that is what makes it so difficult.

One part of my family made its money providing a vacation get away for slave owners and exploiting poor whites and black sharecroppers and farmers (they were the people who ran the general store, priced the cotton, and kept the lein). And another went from being poor farmers to poor cotton mill workers. One day I did some research and found that the farmer side of my family was most probably beholden to the general store owning side at one point. No one in my family owned slaves, that I know of outside of slaves sent with the commission militia an ancestor commanded (although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some were slave holders), but at least one side of my family benefited from slave society and the consequences for a long time after slavery ended (til just before the Depression).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

LOL about your icon. And yes, the plague on:

Medieval feminists
Roman communists
Ancient Egyptian abolitionists

The last reminds me of my cousin's younger son who years ago watched Prince of Egypt with me and then, rather adorably, said that Ramses should have paid the Hebrews wages and offered better working hours, thereby removing their impetus to go, and then he and Moses could have remained together.*g* But what's cute in a kid is annoying in TV shows, movies and fanfic.

Where did you read the absymal PC Alexander? In fanfic or did that kind of tripe actually get published?

[searose.livejournal.com]

I can still remember working up the nerve to ask, "Umm, did we own slaves?" Knowing that my family had been Southern since before the Revolution in some lines. Well, I got my answer, and my ancestry is what it is in that aspect.

Huh, the stories of what some of my family members did to make money in the Depression can be wild, too. Like, umm, paying farm workers in homemade sugar cane liquor instead of cash. (What Temperance laws? Where?) Meals, liquor, roof and a bed. One relative told me straight-faced the liquor was for bartering for goods in town, but I'm not sure I buy all the workers doing just that alone.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

That's funny!

Alas, the dreadful Alexander is published. It's so awful I can hardly look at it. It's called A Murder in Macedon.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the conceived, born and raised bits but I now live in the other Carolina and I'm quite happy up here.

Swamp Fox research is much more interesting than the budget I'm fighting with today.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the Monticello info. Does an admirable job of presenting the pros and cons, although I wonder whether Jefferson's brother and nephews would have been considered as possible alternate fathers by historians if Sally had been white? (Were there still white bondslaves around at that point, or was that strictly 17th century, btw)?

Anyway: yes, a man of his time. Didn't Washington also own slaves?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I thought so.*g*

Great Zeus. Well, thanks for the warning. Mind you, that's a flaw in many a historical mystery. Yay for writers like Stephen Saylor who don't make their ancient Romans (or in Alexander's case, Macedons) spout 21st century attitudes!

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

I have never asked but I did check the historical records, diaries, and the family book for the only side of the family that might have owned slaves. There is so much interesting stuff in those old records. I remember the day I stopped accepting the family legends that I was told and actually read the book, and years later when I found the transcription of the diary of the first person from that family to come to America. (And if your family is from near about where it sounds like you are from you'd know that family name.)

[shezan.livejournal.com]

One of the lines I liked in Section Spéciale, a Costa-Gavras movie I'm not overly fond of otherwise, is delivered by Jacques Perrin as a young right-wing barrister in France in 1942: "Vivement la fin de la guerren qu'on puisse être de nouveau antisémite!". ("Let the war end quickly so that we can be antisemites again", meaning that right now, because the Nazis are, any patriotic Frenchman simply can't allow hirself to be anti-Semitic, but it will be nice when everything go back to the ordered world of before.) And naturally he is dragged into defending people in front of the new jurisdiction of the title, and soon his world has changed so much that he couldn't think of being anti-Semitic if he tried. In other words - people change; and as what were thoughtless mistakes are shown to be enabling harbingers of mass-murder, they don't so much recant as see their prejudices vaporise away. I think this happened to Thomas Mann, just as it happened to many artistocratic English people of the 20s and 30s. I don't necessarily want to excuse it, but I'd like to keep it in proportion.

That being said, the oversimplification of almost any audio-visual production, coupled with thedanger of misinterpretation, are such that I don't expect many films will take the complex, courageous artistic and historic choice in this.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Well Wagner's anti-Semitism was pretty central - didn't he break with Nietzsche over it?

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Yayyyy for Saylor indeed! Isn't he wonderful?

[searose.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if there was an offical end to indentured servitude in America. I seem to recall Irish immigrants having to work off passage, and that would have been during the Famine period and thereafter.

Didn't Washington also own slaves?

Yes, freed after his death in the terms of his will. When I visited his home of Mount Vernon, one of the guides there told me that Washington may have had some concerns that his slaves might rebel and hurt his family once he was gone as master, but I don't know if that was something told to an attendee for sensationalism.

Washington, who had mumps as a youth and possibly tuberculosis as an adult, was sterile. He fathered no children, adopting his wife's son and daughter (from her first marriage) as his own. Those children later died, and he had only two of his stepson's children as legacies to raise. (My personal theories over why he wasn't tempted at all with offers of monarchy and why his will freed those slaves from his holdings - I'm a bad, bad American sometimes.)

[searose.livejournal.com]

Greenville County. Family across the top of the state, via North Carolina (and before that, Virginia). One one side, then up from Georgia on the other.

My rule of thumb: if old folks admit something that paints us in a bad light, then it's probably some part of the truth. If we were all angels - lies, lies, and lies.

[smashsc.livejournal.com]

Cherokee County and Union County for one side of the family.
Union/Newberry County and Lexington County for the other.

Another good rule of thumb: if there is a statue of some great-grandfather in the center of a town, a town with a family name, a buliding at a University, or similiar, then your family isn't all angels.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Nope, the break-up with Nietzsche came over Parsifal and what Nietzsche perceived to be too much Christianity in it as I recall.

Anyway, we're in agreement that you can't do a life of Wagner without including the fact that he was obsessed in this regard. That 50s biopic is bizarre for other reasons as well, though at one point it amused me because the soundtrack had Cosima and Liszt reconciling to the tunes of "Lebwohl, du kühnes, göttliches Kind" from Die Walküre.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

He rules, rocks, and everything in between.*g* My favourite writer of historical mysteries.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think this happened to Thomas Mann, just as it happened to many artistocratic English people of the 20s and 30s. I don't necessarily want to excuse it, but I'd like to keep it in proportion.

Oh, absolutely. It was very typical for his class as well, and you can see it ebb away years before 1933, not least because he had married into a Jewish family. Same with Heinrich, though for other reasons and a bit earlier. It's just startling for a modern reader, if you're not familiar with the period, to discover these casual remarks and asides when you read the early works and letters, and not just the Manns, but also writers like Theodor Fontane, whom one thinks of as the voice of live and let live in his time otherwise.

Like you, I'm not sure whether the audiovisual medium could reproduce this without either oversimplification or misinterpretation, so I'm not surprised that if the attitude is not a central issue in a person's life (which it certainly wasn't for Thomas Mann, Theodor Fontane et al), they decide to ignore it altogether.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, it certainly helped.*g* Though Cromwell did have a son and still didn't go for the crown, but then he was dictator in all but in name nonetheless.

I once saw a play about Benedict Arnold, The General from America, performed by the Royal Shakespeare Company in London, which was great and featured Colin Redgrave as Washington. It was teh first time Washington came alive for me as opposed to being a saintly statue.