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selenakA tip: Watch Life Serial and Dead Things in direct succession. It's a thrilling and creepy experience. I did it, mostly because of my rewakened Troika thirst (for which I blame both ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
andrastewhite and Warren). Now, normally I pair up Dead Things with Seeing Red in my head, and not just because they were both written by Steven DeKnight. But LS and DT mirror each other as well.
In both the Buffy A-plot and the Trio B-plot are barely connected on a physical level; there's only the briefest of physical contacts. And yet they're deeply intertwinned.
Life Serial is a comedy, basically the only pure comedy episode of season 6 (not that there aren't others with very funny elements, but I wouldn't call any of them comedy eps). Still, there is ample foreshadowing. The opening scene, in which Buffy returns home from her meeting with Angel she doesn't want to talk about, bringing home fried chicken to a company of friends and family which has eaten already, and with whom she's painfully out of tune, has its equivalent in the Dead Things scene where Buffy returns home from work and presumably a meeting with Spike, finding Dawn, Xander, Willow and Anya having fun. In the first instance, Dawn is only slightly miffed Buffy doesn't want to talk about what happened with Angel; by the time DT rolls along, the sisters are so estranged that Dawn reacts to Buffy's announcement that she wants to spend time with her at home by telling her she made other plans - "it's not like you're ever here". The Scoobies are supportive in both cases, but she doesn't really connect with them, either.
"It's like she's completely out of focus," Warren observes in LS about Buffy. Not unlike the Trio, who determinedly evade adulthood by trying the next cool thing, whichever that may be. Unlike the Trio, though, Buffy tries to deal with her life in ways that don't appear particularily appealing to her. She used to enjoy college (one of the scenes which always cause a lump in my throat is the teaser from Tough Love, where Buffy tells her English professor whose classes she liked that she'll have to quit), but now it seems to be, like so many aspects of her old life, a world beyond her reach. The method Warren chooses to test her, speeding up time so she's eternally left behind, is a good (and cruel) metaphor for this.
Jonathan's test also involves time, but not time passing too quickly; rather, he involves her in a time loop, time passing not at all and endlessly repeating itself. Which works at another metaphor for Buffy's season 6 emotional state. And not just hers.
It occurs to me, due to still having those fanfiction tendrils in my brain, that both tests comment on Warren and Jonathan respectively as well. Warren is the only one of the Trio whom to we know to have been at college, but he must have quit after I Was Made To Love You, roughly the same time Buffy quit for quite different reasons. He gave up whatever future he had planned for himself in favour of unemployed boredom and then the supervillain gig in Sunnydale. Left behind. And probably blames Buffy for it.
Jonathan, otoh, at this point has never left high school emotionally. (He will in the end, but not yet.) He's stuck in time, going through the same things again and again; trying to be accepted by the other kids (Cordelia, then the Scoobies, then he tries building his own circle with the Trio and ends up as the odd man out yet again). Trying for a short cut, the big dramatic gesture, or a spell, but never quite making it. At the time season 6 was broadcast, some people were surprised Jonathan went for the supervillain gig or even declared it out of character. I saw it as anything but. Having failed with his attempt to be a superhero in Superstar, Jonathan goes for the other extreme instead, but it's still the same time loop as he hasn't grasped what Buffy told him - that people aren't just "socks", or relationships something you can rewrite at your leisure.
This makes for some interesting ambivalance in Jonathan's feelings towards Buffy, btw. As Andraste put it, by the time of Life Serial, she's a fictional character for Andrew, no more real than a video game protagonist; for Warren, she's that but also a symbol of female power he has to destroy, and the person he increasingly blames for what's wrong with his life; but for Jonathan, she's Buffy Summers, the girl he had a crush on, and whom he gave the class protector award to. She's his heroine who repeatedly saved his life but also never let him be a part of hers, and doesn't notice him unless he's in extremis. So he first inserts himself in her life, and partly absorbs some of her identity, in Superstar; by Life Serial, he's proceeded to managing her life from without. He even worries at first he didn't make his test difficult enough for her, and then is proud his task was the toughest. Not coincidentally, it's Jonathan who has the last contact with Buffy in LS, the mock battle in which he used a glamour to create a demon for her to hit.
Now take Dead Things. Where time goes David Lynch at one point, to quote Buffy, and again it's courtesy of the Trio. (Andrew, probably, since the time distorting effect is caused by demons.) As opposed to time going too fast, or time repeating itself, now time splinters in all directions, into dozens of different fragments without ever becoming a true whole, and so does Buffy, who hits emotional rock bottom in this episode. Again, she's observed by the nerds, but we're no longer in Neverland, and they no longer can pretend she's acting out their personal video game. They don't set her up to score each other; they set her up for murder. Jonathan doesn't play a funny D&D-type demon anymore, he plays a girl who is dead already, and whose blood is on their collective hands. Faking death, running away and hiding after Buffy punched him doesn't leave a drunken Buffy and Spike being bemused, but Buffy tormented and Spike desperate. Buffy's outburst in LS about being dumb Buffy, freaky Buffy, who can't bear to be in anyone's company but in the one of a vampire she has to hate is funny, and we're amused; Buffy going to pieces and beating Spike up in an orgy of self-loathing is incredibly painful to watch. And yet there's a direct line from one to the other.
The ultimate consequence of the human-beings-as-game-characters attitude of the Trio is the cerebral dampener, and their plan to "make any woman we desire into our sex slave". Something that was on their schedule from their first season 6 episode (Flooded) onwards, but back then I doubt few people ever bothered to think the implication through. It was such a typical, amusing fanboy thing to wish. They wouldn't really. Would they? You betcha. Including Jonathan, who ought to know better post-Superstar but doesn't. And you have to wonder: if Warren had brought a random stranger to the lair, and the spell hadn't been broken, would Jonathan have objected at all afterwards? I don't think so.
(I do think he would have balked, at the last minute, if it had been Buffy, or Willow, or anyone he actually knew.)
But Warren brings home a real girl, dressed up as a Sleeping Beauty under a spell, who, in a ghastly parody of the fairy tale motif, wakes up after a kiss, not to life, but, as it turns out, to death. The infinitely fascinating and infinitely creepy thing about the Warren/Katrina scenes in DT is that Warren can go from an absolutely sincere and desperate "I missed you so... you never should have left me" to "get down on your knees" within seconds and mean both phrases. If Katrina had actually deigned to talk with him in the bar, would he have abandoned his cerebral dampener scheme and thrown it away as he threw the microphone in the glass to that the others couldn't listen in anymore? Who knows. But she doesn't listen, and so he basically transforms her into a toy. He rewrites her into someone who never WOULD have left him.
Warren's relationship with Katrina echoes several other relationships in this show, just as Warren himself can be seen as an echo, alter ego or complete contrast to several characters, not just one. There is the season 5 Buffy/Spike relationship up to Crush, and Katrina's angry words to Warren certainly echo Buffy's then. There is the season 6 Buffy/Spike relationship, but this time the positions are reversed, as they are in Buffy's dream. This dream, the first one since Restless, like all of Buffy's dreams, is trying to tell her something; in this case, she equates Spike with the victim, with Katrina whom she thinks she killed, and herself with Warren (something she will do consciously when awake near the end of the show). Buffy might have been the one tied up in reality, as her rubbing her wrists indicates, but she knows very well that emotionally, Spike is the one in chains, and so she sees him like this in her dream. Buffy's conflicted feelings about Spike, trying to see him as not real, as someone she can use, while simultanously "letting him in" (and I don't think she meant sexually here; the opening scene of DT is a rather obvious indication that Buffy feels connected to Spike but really doesn't want to), won't be resolved until the seventh season.
The strongest and most perverse and ingenious parallel, for me, to Warren/Katrina is Willow/Tara. Trying to rewrite your relationship to your liking, trying to control your lover's mind, not once, but twice when the first time doesn't work out, even the argument "I just wanted us to be back together" - it's frightening. Hence two sections of my Five Things Which Never Happened To Warren fic, so I won't delve into this at length again.
In Life Serial, the Troika b plot ends with Jonathan returning from his Buffy distraction and all three geeks being very satisfied and pleased with themselves to have pulled one over the Slayer. It's a scene played for laughs. On Buffy's end of things, it ends with Buffy sobering up, with a headache, after her drunken night with Spike, being counselled by Giles. It's a tender scene, and yet sad, because much as these two love each other, they don't really connect; Giles sees Buffy's acceptance of his help as yet another sign he will have to leave her, and she doesn't really tell him what is troubling her.
In Dead Things, the b plot, too, ends with Jonathan returning and the three stating they pulled one over the Slayer. They got away with it. And it couldn't be less amusing or more compelling to watch: Warren actually is pleased, and if he was borderline before, he definitely crossed the line now; Andrew thinks it's cool, his earlier shock having vanished, because Andrew is ever so good at rewriting things in his head to an acceptable story; Jonathan is horrified by all of them, including himself. He has lost his illusions and self-delusions for good. But all the horror and self-disgust is enough to actually do something about it (yet).
Meanwhile, Buffy's storyline ends with her being counselled again. Only it's not Giles, but Tara, and what happened in the night is way more serious than getting drunk. Or than the real life debt problem. The news Tara brings, that Buffy's resurrection did not alter her in any significant way, robs her of her last emotional delusion, that the entire relationship with Spike can be blamed on being "wrong". And she knows very well it's not as much a question of loving him, or not loving him, as of "using him - what's okay about that?" Buffy breaks down, and she does connect with Tara, as she didn't with Giles. Her "don't forgive me, please don't forgive me" is Buffy's self-loathing and horror summed up. But it's not quite enough to actually do something about it (yet).
andrastewhite and Warren). Now, normally I pair up Dead Things with Seeing Red in my head, and not just because they were both written by Steven DeKnight. But LS and DT mirror each other as well.In both the Buffy A-plot and the Trio B-plot are barely connected on a physical level; there's only the briefest of physical contacts. And yet they're deeply intertwinned.
Life Serial is a comedy, basically the only pure comedy episode of season 6 (not that there aren't others with very funny elements, but I wouldn't call any of them comedy eps). Still, there is ample foreshadowing. The opening scene, in which Buffy returns home from her meeting with Angel she doesn't want to talk about, bringing home fried chicken to a company of friends and family which has eaten already, and with whom she's painfully out of tune, has its equivalent in the Dead Things scene where Buffy returns home from work and presumably a meeting with Spike, finding Dawn, Xander, Willow and Anya having fun. In the first instance, Dawn is only slightly miffed Buffy doesn't want to talk about what happened with Angel; by the time DT rolls along, the sisters are so estranged that Dawn reacts to Buffy's announcement that she wants to spend time with her at home by telling her she made other plans - "it's not like you're ever here". The Scoobies are supportive in both cases, but she doesn't really connect with them, either.
"It's like she's completely out of focus," Warren observes in LS about Buffy. Not unlike the Trio, who determinedly evade adulthood by trying the next cool thing, whichever that may be. Unlike the Trio, though, Buffy tries to deal with her life in ways that don't appear particularily appealing to her. She used to enjoy college (one of the scenes which always cause a lump in my throat is the teaser from Tough Love, where Buffy tells her English professor whose classes she liked that she'll have to quit), but now it seems to be, like so many aspects of her old life, a world beyond her reach. The method Warren chooses to test her, speeding up time so she's eternally left behind, is a good (and cruel) metaphor for this.
Jonathan's test also involves time, but not time passing too quickly; rather, he involves her in a time loop, time passing not at all and endlessly repeating itself. Which works at another metaphor for Buffy's season 6 emotional state. And not just hers.
It occurs to me, due to still having those fanfiction tendrils in my brain, that both tests comment on Warren and Jonathan respectively as well. Warren is the only one of the Trio whom to we know to have been at college, but he must have quit after I Was Made To Love You, roughly the same time Buffy quit for quite different reasons. He gave up whatever future he had planned for himself in favour of unemployed boredom and then the supervillain gig in Sunnydale. Left behind. And probably blames Buffy for it.
Jonathan, otoh, at this point has never left high school emotionally. (He will in the end, but not yet.) He's stuck in time, going through the same things again and again; trying to be accepted by the other kids (Cordelia, then the Scoobies, then he tries building his own circle with the Trio and ends up as the odd man out yet again). Trying for a short cut, the big dramatic gesture, or a spell, but never quite making it. At the time season 6 was broadcast, some people were surprised Jonathan went for the supervillain gig or even declared it out of character. I saw it as anything but. Having failed with his attempt to be a superhero in Superstar, Jonathan goes for the other extreme instead, but it's still the same time loop as he hasn't grasped what Buffy told him - that people aren't just "socks", or relationships something you can rewrite at your leisure.
This makes for some interesting ambivalance in Jonathan's feelings towards Buffy, btw. As Andraste put it, by the time of Life Serial, she's a fictional character for Andrew, no more real than a video game protagonist; for Warren, she's that but also a symbol of female power he has to destroy, and the person he increasingly blames for what's wrong with his life; but for Jonathan, she's Buffy Summers, the girl he had a crush on, and whom he gave the class protector award to. She's his heroine who repeatedly saved his life but also never let him be a part of hers, and doesn't notice him unless he's in extremis. So he first inserts himself in her life, and partly absorbs some of her identity, in Superstar; by Life Serial, he's proceeded to managing her life from without. He even worries at first he didn't make his test difficult enough for her, and then is proud his task was the toughest. Not coincidentally, it's Jonathan who has the last contact with Buffy in LS, the mock battle in which he used a glamour to create a demon for her to hit.
Now take Dead Things. Where time goes David Lynch at one point, to quote Buffy, and again it's courtesy of the Trio. (Andrew, probably, since the time distorting effect is caused by demons.) As opposed to time going too fast, or time repeating itself, now time splinters in all directions, into dozens of different fragments without ever becoming a true whole, and so does Buffy, who hits emotional rock bottom in this episode. Again, she's observed by the nerds, but we're no longer in Neverland, and they no longer can pretend she's acting out their personal video game. They don't set her up to score each other; they set her up for murder. Jonathan doesn't play a funny D&D-type demon anymore, he plays a girl who is dead already, and whose blood is on their collective hands. Faking death, running away and hiding after Buffy punched him doesn't leave a drunken Buffy and Spike being bemused, but Buffy tormented and Spike desperate. Buffy's outburst in LS about being dumb Buffy, freaky Buffy, who can't bear to be in anyone's company but in the one of a vampire she has to hate is funny, and we're amused; Buffy going to pieces and beating Spike up in an orgy of self-loathing is incredibly painful to watch. And yet there's a direct line from one to the other.
The ultimate consequence of the human-beings-as-game-characters attitude of the Trio is the cerebral dampener, and their plan to "make any woman we desire into our sex slave". Something that was on their schedule from their first season 6 episode (Flooded) onwards, but back then I doubt few people ever bothered to think the implication through. It was such a typical, amusing fanboy thing to wish. They wouldn't really. Would they? You betcha. Including Jonathan, who ought to know better post-Superstar but doesn't. And you have to wonder: if Warren had brought a random stranger to the lair, and the spell hadn't been broken, would Jonathan have objected at all afterwards? I don't think so.
(I do think he would have balked, at the last minute, if it had been Buffy, or Willow, or anyone he actually knew.)
But Warren brings home a real girl, dressed up as a Sleeping Beauty under a spell, who, in a ghastly parody of the fairy tale motif, wakes up after a kiss, not to life, but, as it turns out, to death. The infinitely fascinating and infinitely creepy thing about the Warren/Katrina scenes in DT is that Warren can go from an absolutely sincere and desperate "I missed you so... you never should have left me" to "get down on your knees" within seconds and mean both phrases. If Katrina had actually deigned to talk with him in the bar, would he have abandoned his cerebral dampener scheme and thrown it away as he threw the microphone in the glass to that the others couldn't listen in anymore? Who knows. But she doesn't listen, and so he basically transforms her into a toy. He rewrites her into someone who never WOULD have left him.
Warren's relationship with Katrina echoes several other relationships in this show, just as Warren himself can be seen as an echo, alter ego or complete contrast to several characters, not just one. There is the season 5 Buffy/Spike relationship up to Crush, and Katrina's angry words to Warren certainly echo Buffy's then. There is the season 6 Buffy/Spike relationship, but this time the positions are reversed, as they are in Buffy's dream. This dream, the first one since Restless, like all of Buffy's dreams, is trying to tell her something; in this case, she equates Spike with the victim, with Katrina whom she thinks she killed, and herself with Warren (something she will do consciously when awake near the end of the show). Buffy might have been the one tied up in reality, as her rubbing her wrists indicates, but she knows very well that emotionally, Spike is the one in chains, and so she sees him like this in her dream. Buffy's conflicted feelings about Spike, trying to see him as not real, as someone she can use, while simultanously "letting him in" (and I don't think she meant sexually here; the opening scene of DT is a rather obvious indication that Buffy feels connected to Spike but really doesn't want to), won't be resolved until the seventh season.
The strongest and most perverse and ingenious parallel, for me, to Warren/Katrina is Willow/Tara. Trying to rewrite your relationship to your liking, trying to control your lover's mind, not once, but twice when the first time doesn't work out, even the argument "I just wanted us to be back together" - it's frightening. Hence two sections of my Five Things Which Never Happened To Warren fic, so I won't delve into this at length again.
In Life Serial, the Troika b plot ends with Jonathan returning from his Buffy distraction and all three geeks being very satisfied and pleased with themselves to have pulled one over the Slayer. It's a scene played for laughs. On Buffy's end of things, it ends with Buffy sobering up, with a headache, after her drunken night with Spike, being counselled by Giles. It's a tender scene, and yet sad, because much as these two love each other, they don't really connect; Giles sees Buffy's acceptance of his help as yet another sign he will have to leave her, and she doesn't really tell him what is troubling her.
In Dead Things, the b plot, too, ends with Jonathan returning and the three stating they pulled one over the Slayer. They got away with it. And it couldn't be less amusing or more compelling to watch: Warren actually is pleased, and if he was borderline before, he definitely crossed the line now; Andrew thinks it's cool, his earlier shock having vanished, because Andrew is ever so good at rewriting things in his head to an acceptable story; Jonathan is horrified by all of them, including himself. He has lost his illusions and self-delusions for good. But all the horror and self-disgust is enough to actually do something about it (yet).
Meanwhile, Buffy's storyline ends with her being counselled again. Only it's not Giles, but Tara, and what happened in the night is way more serious than getting drunk. Or than the real life debt problem. The news Tara brings, that Buffy's resurrection did not alter her in any significant way, robs her of her last emotional delusion, that the entire relationship with Spike can be blamed on being "wrong". And she knows very well it's not as much a question of loving him, or not loving him, as of "using him - what's okay about that?" Buffy breaks down, and she does connect with Tara, as she didn't with Giles. Her "don't forgive me, please don't forgive me" is Buffy's self-loathing and horror summed up. But it's not quite enough to actually do something about it (yet).
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 01:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 01:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 02:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 02:33 pm (UTC)"Life Serial" was one of the funniest eps of the season, and I remember that at that point, a lot of fan discussion involved being delighted (as well as disapproving) at the Trio's hijinks. I enjoyed the Trio arc immensely, but they always, always gave me the wiggiest of wiggins. They took over Buffy's life. They neutralized her autonomy, and frankly, I think it was only enhanced Slayer abilities and instincts that got her through it.
Sometimes it gets so awesomely simple. You know how sometimes you'll stare at a word and it turns into a picture of Jesus? Oh, I am kidding. (Those are the black and white drawing things that are optical illusions.) But really, you look at a word - especially one that's typically hard for you to spell - for me, it would be "occasion"...and all of a sudden it doesn't make sense, it looks like hieroglyphics, and you wonder how the whole written language thing evolved in the first place.
Well, sometimes I have that same feeling when I hear about a kidnapping, or a sexual assault, or a hostage situation. The primitive part of me thinks, "How can this be? People can't be stolen like property or used like appliances! Who ever thought this up?" What if overnight, the world were transformed into a place where the very idea of rape, for example, while not inconceivable, was as horrific and alien and repellent as anything Jeffrey Dahmer did?
So I look at Buffy in the retail time-loop hell, and part of me is enjoying the broad humor of it, appreciating Buffy's ingenuity, and relating to my own long miserable history in retail. But another part of me is saying, how could it occur to anyone that they could claim the right to hijack the life of someone else?
So the Trio was already freaking me out.
There's so much that your analysis brings up. Like Tara being Buffy's only confessor, probably her only hope to understand and maybe resolve Buffy's present personal hell.
And in "Older and Far Away", we caught a glimpse of just how wonderful Tara's influence could be. "A cramp? In your pants?" There was now a third participant in the Big Horrible Secret, and clearly Tara saw something more than the horrible part.
This makes me think of all the other near-connections Buffy has made, from way back in "Teacher's Pet", when the science teacher takes Buffy aside and tells her she has a fine mind, and invites her to prove Principal Flutie and all of her academic critics wrong. Oops, he's dead.
In "Freshman", she makes a new friend, Eddie, whose "blankie" is "Of Human Bondage", which Buffy hasn't read. ("I'm trying to cut way back on the porn.") Oops, he's dead.
In "Doublemeat Palace", her co-worker hands her a drink cup and says "Fill this", and Buffy (God, she's trying so hard) quips that she didn't know there was going to be drug testing. The boy laughs, says she's funny, and tips her off that she had better stop with the funny. By the next day...yup. Dead.
And lovely Tara, gone.
I appreciate your comparison of Warren/Katrina and Willow/Tara. IMO, we never saw Willow really come to grips with what she'd done to Tara. I think Tara's months with Willow were the happiest of her short life, and also some of the most painful. In spite of Willow's Season 7 meltdown, aided by Amy (who will always be Amy the Rat to me), I'm still not convinced that Willow understood that her treatment of Tara was wrong simply because she had no right to do it, not because she hadn't done it skillfully enough.
I think that's why I was uncomfortable with Kennedy. I'll have to review the Willow/Warren ep, see if I've been missing something.
Thanks for a great post.
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Date: 2003-08-11 03:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 03:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-11 05:33 pm (UTC)Not at all, go ahead.
Date: 2003-08-11 07:52 pm (UTC)You're welcome, and...
Date: 2003-08-11 07:56 pm (UTC)Yes!
Date: 2003-08-11 08:16 pm (UTC)Yes. That is precisely it.
And in "Older and Far Away", we caught a glimpse of just how wonderful Tara's influence could be. "A cramp? In your pants?" There was now a third participant in the Big Horrible Secret, and clearly Tara saw something more than the horrible part.
True, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Tara's presence is what starts to break out Buffy of her (Trio-induced) madness in Normal Again, or that Tara's arrival is mirrored by Joyce talking to Buffy in her mental world. ITA on Buffy's other near-connections. There is something very sad about the fact that after Tara, the next person Buffy confides to, whom she tells about those actions and feelings she is ashamed of, the next person who reacts not with the abhorrence she fears but with understanding, is someone who is already dead, and even worse, someone whom she knows she will have to kill - the vampire Holden.
IMO, we never saw Willow really come to grips with what she'd done to Tara
I think that is partly what her breakdown in The Killer in Me is about, and why her subconcious chooses to channel Warren. But then I admit being partial to The Killer in Me, due to recent writings (of that particular scene especially).
making people think...
Date: 2003-08-11 08:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-12 12:06 am (UTC)(BTW, I found your post from
no subject
Date: 2003-08-12 01:13 am (UTC)One of these days I will write a long essay on the theme of violation in S6, because it does not end there.
Once I have had the money to buy the DVDs and rewatched the whole season I'll do it.
*sigh*
Brilliant season.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-12 04:30 am (UTC)... and now I really feel complicit with the Troika *g*. We're like supervillains.
It occurs to me, due to still having those fanfiction tendrils in my brain, that both tests comment on Warren and Jonathan respectively as well.
Oh, that's so clever - I hadn't seen either connection, but you're absolutely right.
It's also possible to speculate on what Andrew's interferance with time in Dead Things might say about him. (I don't think the demon summoning in Life Serial counts as commentary on his personality, but then, he barely had one back then beyond 'summons demons, incurably geeky, inexplicably fond of Timothy Dalton'.) Interesting that the demons he calls up fragment time, disrupting narrative continuity, although Andrew usually places such value on the intergrity of the story. Maybe Dead Things is one of those moments where his worldview almost crashes, and he has to carefully reconstruct it ... and possibly I'm overthinking the parallels here.
Cordelia, then the Scoobies, then he tries building his own circle with the Trio and ends up as the odd man out yet again.
I've always thought that it was terribly sad that Jonathan couldn't even maintain Andrew's friendship and loyalty (which are hardly difficult to acquire) when he certainly has both at the start of Season Six. Warrne handles the shifting power dynamics within the group so much better.
It was such a typical, amusing fanboy thing to wish. They wouldn't really. Would they? You betcha.
One of the single most brilliant choices Mutant Enemy ever made, IMHO. Let's take one of those comicbook supervillain ideas and follow it through to the gritty, apalling end.
I do think he would have balked, at the last minute, if it had been Buffy, or Willow, or anyone he actually knew.
Whereas Warren activly seeks out a girl he loved, and loves still - one of the the best things about Season Six is that it shows the horrific depths people can sink to for that emotion. And Andrew ... well, Warren and Jonathan should thank their lucky stars Andrew never got hold of it and used it on them. He thought the whole thing was a harmless game, a story.
But she doesn't listen, and so he basically transforms her into a toy.
So much of Season Six is about what happens to people when they feel that they're not heard. A lot of what's driving the Trio is the desparate need to be taken seriously, just as Buffy is driven by her inability to talk about her problems.
It's a scene played for laughs.
And yet quite creepy with the benefit of hindsight - Warren's enthusiasm over becoming a threat to the Slayer, Jonathan's idle remark about internal injuries that will eventually kill him, Andrew's first 'Warren's right' ... mind you, it's hard for things to get too ominous with the free cable porn.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-12 07:15 am (UTC)I do love Dead Things for all of the parallels and reversals that you mention. I also appreciate the different reactions of Buffy and Warren to a world without any sort of moral authority - Warren with delight that he can get away with whatever he wants, Buffy with despair that she will not be judged and punished. That there is ultimately no morality beyond the one we create for ourselves. I think it significant that Tara refuses to offer any sort of judgement - Buffy's longing is for someone or something to step in and take responsibility for her actions.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-12 10:11 am (UTC)Hey! Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it! (Especially considering we probably have S.C. for some of the things the film industry did to the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.)
Maybe Dead Things is one of those moments where his worldview almost crashes, and he has to carefully reconstruct it
You can certainly interpret it this way. After all, Andrew is the one who discovers Katrina is actually dead, and who gets her blood on his hands. (The blood Warren wipes away from his face is his own.) And that certainly shatters him enough to immediately suggest they should go to the police and turn themselves in. (I had thought Jonathan suggested it first, but it was Andrew. Jonathan then takes it up.) For a moment, the grand fantasy is shattered. But then Warren takes charge and offers a replacement fantasy - the body isn't Katrina anymore, it is "it", and they will be the smart criminals dumping "it" on Buffy - and Andrew buys this wholesale.
I've always thought that it was terribly sad that Jonathan couldn't even maintain Andrew's friendship and loyalty (which are hardly difficult to acquire) when he certainly has both at the start of Season Six. Warren handles the shifting power dynamics within the group so much better.
Yes. Poor Jonathan. I think one reason for Andrew's switch of loyalities is that he has the need to serve and admire (hence his later easy adjustement to living with the Scoobies, and on a more sinister note, his compliance with the First-as-Warren despite sensing it wasn't really Warren), and Jonathan, sans spell, does not even try for leadership. Warren doesn't try, either; he just assumes it.
One of the single most brilliant choices Mutant Enemy ever made, IMHO. Let's take one of those comicbook supervillain ideas and follow it through to the gritty, apalling end.
Which is probably why a lot of fanboys and the critics at SFX at first hated the Trio, back when season 6 was originally broadcast.*g* Nobody likes to get presented with an unflattering picture of what their fantasies would look like if carried out.
one of the the best things about Season Six is that it shows the horrific depths people can sink to for that emotion.
Absolutely. Tara first thinks her love for Willow, and Willow's love for her, made her a better person, and she's not completely wrong (a more confident person, I'd phrase it), but then she has to discover that what Willow did to her in the name of love. It was also love which made Willow and Xander refuse to accept Buffy's death and resurrect her, thereby doing something worse to her than all her enemies did. And there's the entire Spike storyline.
A lot of what's driving the Trio is the desparate need to be taken seriously
And when they finally are taken seriously, it's by Dark!Willow who has transformed into the kind of supervillain Warren had wanted to be...
A part of growing up:
Date: 2003-08-12 10:17 am (UTC)Mind you, judging yourself doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get it right. See Warren. Or, to be less extreme, humanity at large who as Anya observes is pretty screwed up. But keeps trying.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 01:32 am (UTC)Don't make me come over there and put you in a headlock ...
Especially considering we probably have S.C. for some of the things the film industry did to the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Good point. The movie hasn't actually been released down here yet, but what I've heard does not feel me with anticipation. The sad part is that he would have been a good Quatermain if he'd only been willing to subvert his usual film persona. Alan is meant to be a washed-up hero who couldn't lead his way out of a brown paper bag now because he's hanging out for his next fix. Having someone known for playing a cultural icon in the part could have enhanced the effect.
I had thought Jonathan suggested it first, but it was Andrew. Jonathan then takes it up.
That is indeed interesting, along with the blood. That makes Andrew the only one of the Trio to literally get blood on his hands - maybe twice over, given the stabbing of Jonathan - since Warren kills Tara from a distance.
The temptation to just go out and buy Season Six on DVD gets stronger by the day.
But then Warren takes charge and offers a replacement fantasy.
I don't think any scene in BtVS has horrified me more than the immediate aftermath of Katrina's death, as Warren manages to pull himself together into a new and terrifying shape. I mean, he was pretty creepy before then, but after ...
Yes. Poor Jonathan. I think one reason for Andrew's switch of loyalities is that he has the need to serve and admire.
Andrew is one of life's dogs, and dogs need masters. He seems to have a pretty equal relationship with Jonathan, but that's not really what he wants.
If someone gives him nice clear instructions and sounds as if they what they're doing, Andrew's instinct is to wag his tail follow them. If they don't behave like an alpha animal, though, he becomes fractious or even dangerous. He resists the Scoobies in Two to Go because nobody has a satisfactory plan, and ends up holding a sword to Xander's throat. I suspect Jonathan made the same mistake in Mexico - starting with the fact that going there was Andrew's idea. Then the First turns up, looking like Warren, and tells him that *it* has a plan.
Buffy tells him that she's making it all up in Storyteller, of course, but then reveals that she did have a plan to close the seal, cementing his loyalty to her. (Plus, she has shiny hair in her favour.)
And when they finally are taken seriously, it's by Dark!Willow who has transformed into the kind of supervillain Warren had wanted to be...
Yeah. A girl finally did pay attention to Warren, and it wasn't quite what he was hoping for, to say the least.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 05:13 am (UTC)He. What do you want to bet Andrew persuaded Xander and the girls to hold a Bond marathon at one point and inserted at least one Connery Bond in Warren's memory?
The sad part is that he would have been a good Quatermain if he'd only been willing to subvert his usual film persona. Alan is meant to be a washed-up hero who couldn't lead his way out of a brown paper bag now because he's hanging out for his next fix. Having someone known for playing a cultural icon in the part could have enhanced the effect.
Quite true. And you know, there are precedents on how this works cinematically - Unforgiven, for example. Or, perhaps the classic example, Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard Which of course would have been a classic in any case with Billy Wilder writing and directing, but there is so much added emotional depth and poignancy by real-life silent movie star Swanson being willing to play Norma Desmond. To subject herself to unflattering camera angles, to subvert her iconic screen persona this way - and create a new icon. Yes, Connery could have been a great Alan-Quatermain-as-written-by-Moore. BTW, even more than changing Alan's persona, the changes for Mina are what annoys me from a distance (not having seen the film yet, either). To reduce her from no-nonsense leader of the team to love interest in a triangle is unforgivable.
That makes Andrew the only one of the Trio to literally get blood on his hands - maybe twice over, given the stabbing of Jonathan - since Warren kills Tara from a distance.
True, though it hadn't occured to me before you said it.
The temptation to just go out and buy Season Six on DVD gets stronger by the day.
Give in! I did, only recently. You'll feel better. And it's so worth it (see newest lj entry).
Andrew is one of life's dogs, and dogs need masters. He seems to have a pretty equal relationship with Jonathan, but that's not really what he wants.
No. Which reminds me of something I had wanted to add earlier but forgot: if Andrew had used the cerebral dampener on Warren (which makes for yet another creepily interesting AU - get away from me, plot bunny!), he absolutely couldn't have dealt with the result. Equality isn't that satisfying to him already, but someone calling him "Master"? Let alone someone he has a crush on?
I suspect Jonathan made the same mistake in Mexico - starting with the fact that going there was Andrew's idea.
Also, if the Mexico flashback in Storyteller isn't another example of Andrew rewriting history, Jonathan made the mistake of turning to Andrew for comfort. Which Andrew happily provided, of course, but it didn't help with the respect part. Poor Jonathan.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 11:04 pm (UTC)And probably Moonraker in honour of Jonathan, too, even if Warren hated it.
I have plot bunnies involving Andrew going to see some of the the genre films that have come out recently with Xander for company, and missing his former comrades in moviegoing. I suspect the Matrix films in particular are tainted somewhat by Jonathan's absence, since he seems to have been a fan.
BTW, even more than changing Alan's persona, the changes for Mina are what annoys me from a distance.
Exactly - Moore subverts the Victorian texts he's drawing on in part by putting her in charge, and I love the Mina of the comics as a result. I hate the thought of her being reduced to decoration.
Give in!
You're an evil temptress. I'm meant to be saving money for furniture! But DVDs are so shiny ... I love the BtVS writer commentaries, especially.
Equality isn't that satisfying to him already, but someone calling him "Master"? Let alone someone he has a crush on?Also, if the Mexico flashback in Storyteller isn't another example of Andrew rewriting history, Jonathan made the mistake of turning to Andrew for comfort.
I think it's probably accurate - Andrew tends to exagerate wildly when he's rewriting things - but there's also an element of selection going on.
Andrew must have several memories involving the knife that he could replay to show how important it is (such as when Warren-slash-the-First asked him to get it) but he chooses this one. Perhaps because it does show him comforting Jonathan, and also expressing disquiet about stabbing his friend. Not to mention the First promising that they'll all become gods. He's trying to minimise his responsibility.
The thing I find spooky about both this scene (and all of Coversations With Dead People) is that there's no implication that Andrew kills Jonathan because he hates him. Their relationship has been damaged almost beyond repair during Season Six, and yet they seem to have rebuilt at least some of their bridges while they were in Mexico. There's a seemingly genuine bond between them when they wake up after the nightmare ... and this is after Andrew has already agreed to kill Jonathan.
Which Andrew happily provided, of course, but it didn't help with the respect part. Poor Jonathan.
Poor, poor Jonathan. When you look at everything that happened to him (even if some of it was his own fault) it's understandable that he wanted to be anything other than himself. He finally makes a friend, and Andrew ends up sacrificing him.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-14 05:36 am (UTC)I always thought that Andrew talked Xander and possibly Dawn and Anya into taking him to watch The Two Towers back in winter. When Xander objected at first because there was a BB around and Andrew was only recently untied etc, Andrew countered that the Trio found the time to watch FotR the year before despite being always on the look-out for Buffy. They even were at the midnight matinee opening.
X: Let me get this straight. You thought you were supervillains, and you went to watch FotR?
A (proudly): In costume. And don't tell me you didn't, because I saw you there.
I suspect the Matrix films in particular are tainted somewhat by Jonathan's absence, since he seems to have been a fan.
Considering he replaced Keanu Reeves with himself in Superstar, by all means. (BTW another wonderful narrative irony. Though nobody told Buffy to choose between the red pill and the blue pill in Superstar
You're an evil temptress. I'm meant to be saving money for furniture! But DVDs are so shiny ...
Are you a geek, or are you not? Who needs furniture anyway? You can always persuade your friends to dump some of their old stuff on you. Also, fair is fair. You set plot bunnies loose on me.
I'm beginning to think that it would be possible to write 'Five Things That Never Happened With the Cerebral Dampner.'
Quite.*g*
The thing I find spooky about both this scene (and all of Coversations With Dead People) is that there's no implication that Andrew kills Jonathan because he hates him. Their relationship has been damaged almost beyond repair during Season Six, and yet they seem to have rebuilt at least some of their bridges while they were in Mexico. There's a seemingly genuine bond between them when they wake up after the nightmare ... and this is after Andrew has already agreed to kill Jonathan.
Yes. It's complete dissassociation between the act and their relationship. Which is of course where Andrew's gradual progression from Killer in Me to Storyteller comes in - it's a process of growing emotional awareness, I think, of connecting the dots, as it were, that it's not possible to divide between the self who killed Jonathan and the Andrew who was Jonathan's friend.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-15 11:21 pm (UTC)A (proudly): In costume. And don't tell me you didn't, because I saw you there.
Oh, I can see it now. I wonder if the others managed to convince Jonathan that he really wasn't tall enough to be a Dark Rider and needed to accept his destiny as one of nature's hobbits?
Considering he replaced Keanu Reeves with himself in Superstar, by all means. (BTW another wonderful narrative irony. Though nobody told Buffy to choose between the red pill and the blue pill in Superstar.
You know, I'd missed that, but you're right *g*. Generally when I'm listening to those lines, my only thought is 'you know, I think I might have liked The Matrix even better if Danny Strong had played Neo.'
Are you a geek, or are you not?
I can't believe that someone is actually questioning my geek cred! ... I could cite the cotents of my bookshelf/hardrive/desk, but somehow I think this conversation provides ample evidence of my geekery *g*.
Who needs furniture anyway?
In 'furniture' I'm including a TV and VCR, neither of which I technically posess at this point. Clearly I need those ... and, y'know, a fridge.
You can always persuade your friends to dump some of their old stuff on you.
That would assume that my friends have, at some point, spent money on furniture instead of DVDs/furniture/travelling overseas to visit other fans ...
Also, fair is fair. You set plot bunnies loose on me.
Yes, but you inflicted Buffy, Andrew and an inadvertant unicorn on me. Also, Warren has yet to heed my orders to go away and come back when I'm finished with the stories in the current queue ...
It's complete dissassociation between the act and their relationship.
Exactly - Andrew is in the habit of keeping himself in several different boxes, but he's slowly learning to dissolve the boundaries.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-17 11:43 am (UTC)Since Jonathan probably was still secretly harboring the desire to be a hero somewhere, it's likely. It also would explain why Warren calls him Frodo at one point. Jonathan's favourite quote from FotR, the movie, was Galadriel's "Even the smallest person..." Andrew's favourite quote, otoh, was obviously: "I would have followed you, my brother...my captain... my king."
I think I might have liked The Matrix even better if Danny Strong had played Neo.'
Brilliant idea. Me, too.
In 'furniture' I'm including a TV and VCR, neither of which I technically posess at this point. Clearly I need those ... and, y'know, a fridge.
Okay then. Yes, those would be three essential items.
Also, Warren has yet to heed my orders to go away and come back when I'm finished with the stories in the current queue ...
Warren is a persistant guy. *g* Also, clearly you aren't Spike. (Can't think of another person whose orders Warren actually listened to.)
no subject
Date: 2003-08-17 11:40 pm (UTC)Most certainly, although poor Jonathan seldom had a lasting effect on anything. The ultimate insult to his existance wasthat his death didn't even open the seal.
(And I guess it really was because he was short and anemic, because Buffy and the other Slayers - and how cool is it that I can now say 'other Slayers?' - had no trouble.)
Andrew's favourite quote, otoh, was obviously: "I would have followed you, my brother...my captain... my king."
Spot on, again *g*.
Any guesses on Warren's, or was he too busy marvelling at the production design and the work that had gone into the armor to pay that much attention to the dialogue? (The villains in the LotR film not being a terribly chatty bunch, for the most part.)
Brilliant idea. Me, too.
He'd have made a far more convincing computer geek (well, obviously) and everyone I've shared this suggestion with has agreed that he'd have given a more inspiring delivery of 'woah.'
Warren is a persistant guy. *g* Also, clearly you aren't Spike.
*checks*
Not blonde (well, not since I was four), English, or a vampire. Also female. Darn.
Although, if I could find a Boba Fetta action figure to hold hostage ...
Warren's favourite FotR quote
Date: 2003-08-18 10:31 pm (UTC)Though I like your guess as well. Did he live long enough to get the Extended Version on DVD, with all the extras regarding the production design?
Re: Warren's favourite FotR quote
Date: 2003-08-19 05:12 am (UTC)And he probably has it memorised in the Black Speech too.
With a secret fondness for Bilbo's farewell speech ("...and I like less than half of you half as much as you deserve..."), complete with flashy dissappearance.
Hee. You're probably right, although it would take more torture than Willow inflicted on him to get him to admit it aloud.
Though I like your guess as well. Did he live long enough to get the Extended Version on DVD, with all the extras regarding the production design?
I'm afraid not. Traditionally BtVS seasons end around the end of the school year, so he would have died in the late spring of 2002, six months before all those wonderful documentaries became available. One more thing for Andrew to watch thinking 'Warren would have really loved this.'
A musical flashback in Storyteller would have been terrific. And I agree, Andrew as the Sweet summoner and a brainwashed Xander makes much more sense than canon!
Suddenly I'm tempted to write the fanfic, although it would leave poor Andrew with more blood on his hands ... which makes a hell of a lot more sense than Xander summoning a demon that likes to immolate people. I adore the episode, but what were they thinking when they put the plot twist in? Apart from anything else, it breaks all the rules about telling the truth in song that they set up.
But why on earth both Xander and Andrew can have a thing for Captain Archer instead of Captain Picard is completely beyond me...
Clearly, Xander has poor taste in fictional men. Andrew may, of course, have a thing for Picard (and Kirk, and Sisko) as well as Archer - he's not exactly fussy. Sadly, we'll never know, because the Trio never got to have the 'Kirk or Picard?' debate on screen.
(Although, if they had, maybe Andrew would have voted for Archer and Warren would have had to hit him again.)
Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-19 09:38 am (UTC)(Although, if they had, maybe Andrew would have voted for Archer and Warren would have had to hit him again.)
Sounds quite plausible to me.*g* Hey, wouldn't that be an ideal subject for missing musical scene - the Trio having the quintessential "Kirk or Picard" debate?
(BTW, am a Picard girl all the way and had those debates so often I could sleepwalk through them...)
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-20 03:43 am (UTC)Abosolutely. Now we just need to recruit someone who can filk and make the write it.
(BTW, am a Picard girl all the way and had those debates so often I could sleepwalk through them...)
I had one of my occasional Picard marathons (including a first viewing of Chain of Command) today, and I just don't see how anyone could think someone else was better. I mean, I admit that I know Kirk mainly by reputation ... but how can you even compare them? It's Patrick Stewart! I'm glad I've never actually had the argument, because I'd be reduced to pointing and saying 'but! Patrick!' a lot.
It does, too. I'm positively drooling, which is an ungainly sight. Yet another thing to blame you for.
I am clearly very evil. If it helps, your post about hero-bashing is making me think interesting thoughts that are going to turn themselves into a post soon.
The story does exist now, in what I hestitate to call a rough draft - it's 4,000 words of crap at the moment, although it certainly has potential. I'm not sure how soon I'll start the necessary rewriting process - I have a Season Seven Giles story I really need to polish up, and Cally wants to talk to me about that story I'm meant to be writing for
(I got around to watching Moloch, and it was worth it for two reasons: Moloch himself had me in hysterics for some time, it gave me a hook to hang the story on. Therefore, it's a distinct improvement on Harvest of Kairos.)
Exactly. Heck, when Tyrell smugly made his "sorry, old chap, but you're toast anyway, so look at the things you've accomplished as our slave and cheer up!" statement, I was rooting for his demise!
Yeah - the moral of the story is: don't build highly intelligent killers and then piss them off. Evil scientists never learn.
(Incidentally, have you heard about the extra scene that was in one of the many earlier scripts, where after killing him Roy says 'now take me to the real Tyrel' ...?)
Given that the replicants only had four years and were programmed as killers and sex slaves respectively, the fact they could come up with their own emotions and - Roy at least, in the end when he saves Deckard - ethics is amazing.
Tyrel was right about one thing - Roy was extraordinary. And all that brilliance and surprising capacity for empathy, wasted.
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-20 09:41 pm (UTC)Look at my lj and see how you continue to be inspiring.
I had one of my occasional Picard marathons (including a first viewing of Chain of Command) today,
You were unfamiliar with Chain of Command? But...torture! Nudity! 1984! Not to mention that the script lets Picard acknowledge that he did see five lights in the end.
and I just don't see how anyone could think someone else was better. I mean, I admit that I know Kirk mainly by reputation ... but how can you even compare them? It's Patrick Stewart! I'm glad I've never actually had the argument, because I'd be reduced to pointing and saying 'but! Patrick!' a lot.
He. I can come up with other arguments, but...yeah.
your post about hero-bashing is making me think interesting thoughts that are going to turn themselves into a post soon.
I'm very much looking forward to reading it, along with everything else announced.*g*
Moloch himself had me in hysterics for some time
According to the Together Again tapes, he had Paul Darrow and Jan Chappel in hysterics as well. They needed to hold hands very hard to make it through the take without breaking down again.
Incidentally, have you heard about the extra scene that was in one of the many earlier scripts, where after killing him Roy says 'now take me to the real Tyrel' ...?
No, that is news to me. Hm. I think I like the scene as it is better, with Tyrel as human.
Tyrel was right about one thing - Roy was extraordinary. And all that brilliance and surprising capacity for empathy, wasted.
One of the reasons why Jeter's so called sequel infuriated me was that he totally missed that, and indeed the point of the final scene, by rewriting it into your standard Hollywood action finale in which Deckard gets another chance to square off against Roy (or a version of him anyway) and wins.
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-21 04:46 am (UTC)Bwahahaha! That's perfect! I loved they way Andrew kept speaking up for the Other Guys (and the Other Girl.)
And yes, I will do the dialogue. Unfortunately, I seem to have inspired myself as well. See my journal for the result.
You were unfamiliar with Chain of Command?
My close acquaintance with Trek is actually very recent. I'd been avoiding it for years, until Alara proved how evil she was by saying 'but you'd love Picard/Q! You must watch this!' and corrupted me. I don't have the money for the DVD sets (nor the time and patience to watch every episode) so I've been reliant on the local video rental place. Chain of Command is on two different tapes, and out rather more often than not.
...torture! Nudity! 1984!
Exactly. (I have to admit I sighed when they gave him clothes. It would have been more ... er, dehumanising ... if they'd left him naked all episode.)
Not to mention that the script lets Picard acknowledge that he did see five lights in the end.
Brilliant moment. Did he ever run into the Cardassian again ...?
According to the Together Again tapes, he had Paul Darrow and Jan Chappel in hysterics as well. They needed to hold hands very hard to make it through the take without breaking down again.
I'm impressed with their restraint - actually, I suspect that it was often a challenge for the actors when confronted with the 'special' effects.
It makes it even more bewildering that they invited Steed back again, actually. Not only did he write bad, sexist scripts, he wrote scripts that were dependant on 'scary' monsters. Surely everyone knew by then that this wasn't one of the show's great strengths?
Hm. I think I like the scene as it is better, with Tyrel as human.
In the original version, Roy casually breaks Tyrel's neck, then demands that Sebastian take him to the real thing. Terrified, the tech leads him down to the basement, where he shows Roy his maker - or, rather, the frozen corpose of Tyrel, who died some time ago.
Furious that he's been denied even the satisfaction of killing the man that built him and then doomed him to early death, Roy turns on his guide and kills him instead.
I'm not sure which version I like better, but one positive aspect of this one is that it gives Roy a stronger justification for killing the harmless Sebastian.
One of the reasons why Jeter's so called sequel infuriated me was that he totally missed that, and indeed the point of the final scene, by rewriting it into your standard Hollywood action finale in which Deckard gets another chance to square off against Roy (or a version of him anyway) and wins.
Urk. Glad I haven't read that. The whole point is that it's the one movie where the android wins - and wins a moral victory, not just a physical one.
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-21 10:37 am (UTC)Thanks. Andrew is endearingly predictable that way.*g* A heart for minorities, that one has.
Unfortunately, I seem to have inspired myself as well. See my journal for the result.
Which is terrific, as I told you over there. Have since reconsidered we don't need a song for Andrew since he won't sing BEFORE Sweet arrives, just a cool-sounding summoning. Also, Andrew would have to be the one who puts the talisman in the magic shop for Dawn to find (at this point, he's the only one of the Troika Buffy & Co. have never met, so that's not dangerous for him).
Otoh, we do need something for the "blame it on Xander" decision.
My close acquaintance with Trek is actually very recent.
Ah. I am a bona fide Trekker. Watched TOS as a child, saw the movies in the cinema, saw TNG on screen, saw DS9 on screen and even saw Voyager except for the last season on screen. No Enterprise, though. DS9 is my favourite among the shows if you go for the overall writing quality and originality, but Picard is my favourite Captain.
I'd been avoiding it for years, until Alara proved how evil she was by saying 'but you'd love Picard/Q! You must watch this!' and corrupted me.
He. But well, yes. Leaving aside the fun of Picard/Q, there are also episodes like Sarek which you just couldn't imagine for any of the other folks in the Captain's chair because a) no common element of emotional reserve and corresponding emotional breakthrough, and b) no Patrick Stewart they, for the big scene where Sarek's unleashed emotionals are running rampant in Picard, together with his own.
I have to admit I sighed when they gave him clothes. It would have been more ... er, dehumanising ... if they'd left him naked all episode.
Quite. All in the spirit of authenticity.*g* A decade or so ago I was at a convention where Jonathan Frakes said when they shot that episode, the director had intended to use a body double until Patrick Stewart quite offendly stated he didn't need one. (He was right, of course.*g*)
The other great thing about Chain of Command is that it breaks with a Trek cliché - Captain gets replaced by imcompetent officer/ dire situation arises/ Captain is reinstated by showing incompetent officer how it's done. Picard's temporary replacement might not be a nice guy, but is by no means incompetent and gets the job done.
Did he ever run into the Cardassian again ...?
Alas no, probably because a) that was the sixth season and they were nearing the end of the show, and b) David Warner is expensive. But the writers clearly got inspired and developed the Cardassians into fascinating creatures on DS9.
It makes it even more bewildering that they invited Steed back again, actually
The eternal mystery of B7: why three Ben Steed scripts? But please, spare yourself Power!
BTW, in one fanzine, there is a great AU story in which Vila meets up with Servalan but in this case she has been raped, and the juxtaposition of these two characters, and that particular situation, works very well. And without sentimentalising Servalan, while doing justice to how traumatizing a gang rape would be; at one point Vila (the entire thing is written in Vila's pov) thinks she won't forgive him any more for having seen her this way than Avon would.
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-21 10:01 pm (UTC)Thanks :-).
Have since reconsidered we don't need a song for Andrew since he won't sing BEFORE Sweet arrives, just a cool-sounding summoning.
I should have that scene - and the linking dialogue for the other songs - done by the end of the day. As it happens, Andrew has a solo moment right after the summoning, although the ritual itself may or may not be in English (depends on whether I feel inspired to write bad verse this afternoon, or give up and say 'insert demon language here.')
I'll e-mail it over when that part is done, and we can work out where to go from there.
Also, Andrew would have to be the one who puts the talisman in the magic shop for Dawn to find (at this point, he's the only one of the Troika Buffy & Co. have never met, so that's not dangerous for him).
Makes sense - could be time for a special guest appearance from Anya and/or Giles.
Otoh, we do need something for the "blame it on Xander" decision.
I've got dialogue for that, but it would be fantastic to have a song. If you come up with something, that is *g*.
As far as I can see, what we need most is:
a) Something for the scene where they brainwash Xander. I have no ideas, I'm afraid.
b) A big finale after they've avoided disaster. Possibly concerning what they'll do after they take over Sunnydale. Again, I'm out of suggestions.
He. But well, yes. Leaving aside the fun of Picard/Q, there are also episodes like Sarek which you just couldn't imagine for any of the other folks in the Captain's chair because a) no common element of emotional reserve and corresponding emotional breakthrough, and b) no Patrick Stewart they, for the big scene where Sarek's unleashed emotionals are running rampant in Picard, together with his own.
Exactly - you get a similar effect in Chain of Command and even Family, I think. Picard's reserve is so complete most of the time that it's iherently shocking when the shell cracks open.
Quite. All in the spirit of authenticity.*g*
I also consider it a research opportunity - naked Patrick Stewart being a feature of several fanfics of mine, one way and another.
(He was right, of course.*g*)
Very much so - how dare a director suggest depriving the fans!
Picard's temporary replacement might not be a nice guy, but is by no means incompetent and gets the job done.
I appreciated that, too, especially since I thought they were going to go the cliched route and have his approach be the wrong one, so Riker could save the day. It was nice to see that balance - he was abrasive and his approach put psychological pressure on the crew, but he did get results.
Alas no, probably because a) that was the sixth season and they were nearing the end of the show, and b) David Warner is expensive. But the writers clearly got inspired and developed the Cardassians into fascinating creatures on DS9.
I must watch more DS9. When I'm finished with B7, I think.
The eternal mystery of B7: why three Ben Steed scripts?
Unbreakable contract? Alien mind control? Voodoo curse?
But please, spare yourself Power!
I'll try to resist the morbid curiosity ...
BTW, in one fanzine, there is a great AU story in which Vila meets up with Servalan but in this case she has been raped, and the juxtaposition of these two characters, and that particular situation, works very well.
I imagine it would - bad enough for Servalan to be offered to Vila for his use. I find it odd that although the episode keeps flirting with rape in a way that's hardly family-orriented, it can't quite follow through and have something bad happen to Servalan or Dayna. But then, I'm used to shows like Farscape and B7 probably coulndn't have gotten away with making the hints more blatant.
Re: Missing debate
Date: 2003-08-22 02:15 am (UTC)Email: do you have mine? It's angria@t-online.de
DS9: Definitely worth watching. Dark, edge, and increasingly arc-driven.
Explicit rape on a British show sent before 9 pm at that time - impossible. But Steed is a coward for bringing it up without dealing with the implications.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-06 07:51 am (UTC)Another sort of parallel I noted: In both episodes, Buffy does something she afterwards regrets (drinking with Spike, beating Spike), but in the aftermath there's no resolution with him. If I remember correctly, it's Spike who brings up the topic and Buffy who avoids it. She may be ashamed for what she does, but like you said she isn't willing to do something about it at this point.
The strongest and most perverse and ingenious parallel, for me, to Warren/Katrina is Willow/Tara.
Re. Warren: And in season 5, we got a parallel to Spike when both tried to get a girl in the form of a robot. Which means Warren is a rather static character, his goals don't change. Ultimately, he wants to be worshipped by some girl forever on. Spike, on the other hand, is a more versatile character who moves between prepetrator and victim.
Something I noticed: The theme of "you never should have left me" is variated in the follow up episode to Dead Things when Dawn makes the wish for noone to be able to ever leave her again.
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Date: 2006-02-06 08:25 am (UTC)No resolution in both cases: yes, though that's fast approaching.
Warren and Spike:
"The most obvious influence on Warren is cultural – as a fantasy and movie fan he appears to derive his style of villainy directly from pulp SF. His death rays and robots are typical markers of the fantasy arch-villain. He searches for money and invulnerability, but with little long term idea of what he’s going to do with them. However, there’s a further influence which is more easily missed. For a Sunnydale citizen, Warren is unusually aware of the supernatural (possibly because he moved to Sunnydale as an adolescent and didn’t grow up under the Sunnydale Denial Field). In IWMTLY Warren instantly recognises Buffy and knows her broad role in the world. Even more interestingly, he is powerfully intimidated by Spike at their first meeting in a manner that is disproportionate to Spike’s actions, even given Warren’s physical unassertiveness. It seems likely that Warren knew what, or even exactly who, Spike was as soon as they met – the bleached vampire who’d terrorised the town on-and-off for the last couple of years. In the big debates over Spike’s personal activities, his effect on others has been largely ignored, despite his potential role in Dawn’s shoplifting, for example. Warren’s just lost his girlfriend, been humiliated by the Slayer, and had his personal sexual hang-ups revealed to anyone who Katrina might be friends with. Now he meets a real figure of power, and he becomes overcome by a quest to gain the same kind of power.
Spike’s meetings with Warren in IMWTLY and Intervention are the first signs of a pattern that will develop through the first half of Season 6. Warren’s encounters with real figures of supernatural evil invariably end in humiliations that drive him to more violent attempts to reclaim his self-image. In Flooded he does not seem particularly worried by Buffy, but the demon Andrew summons is obsessed with killing her. Warren reveals his amorality by giving the M’Fashnik Buffy’s contact details without his followers’ knowledge, but by the next episode he’s imitating the demons and directly challenging her. Admittedly, there’s a strong element of misogyny in Warren’s attacks on the strongest woman visible, but he’s also imitating his role models. In Smashed Spike farcically manages to intimidate all three of the trio by mere force of personality (and the fragility of plastic). Within days of this debacle Warren has made his first serious attempt to kill Buffy himself, trying to reduce her to Angel Delight in the amusement arcade. This barrier crossed, he no longer needs demonic stimuli to provoke his violence." (continued)
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Date: 2006-02-06 08:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-10-28 12:40 pm (UTC)And I am blown away! So many conncetions, so many parallels and I never saw them before. Wow. Thank you so much - I'll never watch either episode the same way again!
no subject
Date: 2006-10-28 04:08 pm (UTC)Also, you're more than welcome!