More BSG observations, and Heroes fanfic recs

[selenak]

Two BSG related observations:

a) I think, going by the evidence of both s2 and 3 having strong opening episodes, a good middle episode or two, and great final three episodes, that the problem is Moore & Co. are plain better with the 13 episodes format than they are with the 20 episodes one. As season 4 is supposedly going back to the 13 episodes format, that should solve said problem and spare us future Black Markets and Quadrangles of Doom.

b) So, yesterday, after posting my own enthusiastic review of Crossroads, I - and seriously, I was bouncing and completely in love, still am - I checked on everyone else's reviews and the message board discussions, and it seems to be one of those cases where one gets the "did we watch the same episode?" feeling. Specifically in the arguing about Lee Adama's motivations. Now, I'm not a particular Lee fangirl, though these last episodes have made me recover all my season 1 and early s2 fondness for the character. Still, there are several BSG characters I like and love better. But Lords of Kobol, Great Maker, Cylon God and all the sci fi deities, how on earth or in space did people come to the conclusion that he asked Roslin about the chamalla because he felt petty about Daddy, or that he was "selling her out"? She was a hostile witness; he was doing his job as a member of the defense team. Because, and that has been established all the way back in season 1, Lee Adama actually cares about democracy, and due process. As opposed to rubber stamp foregone conclusions. I love Laura Roslin as a character, passionately so. More than I like Lee at the best of times. But Lee had every right to his questions, and I was cheering him on. (While at the same time admiring Laura for being her ruthless professional self and managing to turn it in an advantage to herself by making her "my cancer is back" declaration at the end. This is also called, to use a Laura Roslin expression, "playing the religious card".)

Meanwhile, Bill Adama should be banned from the courtroom, post haste. If a judge declares that "this traiterous piece of garbage, Gaius Baltar, doesn't deserve a trial", it would be enough to get him disqualified, and that's leaving out all his previous history with the case - including the offer to Roslin to just kill Baltar secretely for her. But Adama is trying to make a joke of what remains of the legal process by attempting to shut down any line of enquiries as soon as they touch his friends. (Thankfully, his fellow judges don't stand for it this time.) Which makes him a good friend to Saul and Laura, no question, but again, utterly unqualified to sit in that courtroom in a judging position. And definitely not in a position to judge anyone's integrity, either, because imo this shows he does not possess much himself.

I think what it comes down to, in the perception of the viewer, is whether you value personal loyalty or loyalty to a principle higher. Personal loyalty is important, and an attractive trait. But Adama's tendency to judge everything and everyone by their personal loyalty to himself and his to them, which is also a trait established in s1, has become stronger and stronger and now is threatening to overwhelm everything else. Which, since he's the man commanding the fleet, is damm dangerous, and one has to wonder what makes him different from Admiral Cain at this point. Now, the one time where Adama put the belief in a principle above personal loyalty - in the issue of Roslin trying to steal the elections from Baltar - it had disastrous results, so I can see where this development came from. But it's still catastrophic. Lee hands over the Astral Queen to Zarek and promises elections? Must be a choice against his father, couldn't be Lee believing in democracy. Laura sending Kara to Caprica to retrieve the arrow? Is reason for a military coup because she (temporarily, as it turned out) robbed him of Kara's loyalty. Lee chooses to take a stand against the coup? Is Lee deciding against Adama, of course, not making a choice for democracy. Saul Tigh manages to drive absolute Adama loyalists like Dee and Gaeta to helping the mutineers and manages to damm near provoke civil war within the fleet? Does not have any consequences for Tigh, because Tigh is his friend. Tyrol decides to move to New Caprica with his wife and new kid instead of staying on Galactica? Is a personal betrayal of the first order, to be followed up by boxing a year later. Tigh testifies in court drunk? Is Lee's fault, can't be Tighs. Lee actually follows up the declaration that anyone, even Gaius Baltar, deserves a fair trial, by working for the defense? Means he's a cowardly backstabber.

Seriously: what Adama needs is a reality check, and a quick one. Because he and Roslin and he and Tigh do not work as checks and balances anymore but as mutual support in autocracy. This is dangerous.


***

More Heroes fanfiction recs:

We Make The Road By Walking, a Nathan pov after episode 18, but dealing with much more than that. I especially like the way the author uses the (suicidal) backstory of the late Mr. Petrelli, Nathan's and Peter's father.

In the Blood: another pov ficlet set after episode 18, this one tackling Claire and Nathan's reaction to her.

Endangered Species: future fic, drawing a scarily believable scenario of what could happen in later seasons. Claire pov, and it's a pairing with Niki/Jessica, accomplished in a believable way, but what fascinates me most is the future painted there.

Comments

[g_shadowslayer]

Re: BSG, you and I were definitely watching the same episode. As much as I love Bill Adama, he is NOT an impartial judge and should not be allowed to serve on the tribunal in any shape or form.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about it better at 13 episodes. Personally I had it on the ramp cause I was so tired of the quadrangle of luv. I almost gave up on it. But these last episodes have redeemed the show. And Lee is once again becoming a real character.

The trial shows what they can do with the right situation. We want dark drama, not petty soap operas...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And 13 episodes don't leave room for more soap opera stuff, they have to concentrate on the drama!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It's true that it should be virtually impossible to find someone in the fleet who doesn't have issues with Baltar, but Adama really is less qualified than most regarding the impartiality.

He's at his best on the personal level - as when he's comforting Tigh in this episode. But mixing him in civilian proceedings brings out the worst in him.

[g_shadowslayer]

Oh yes indeed -- I agree with you completely! I think I'm glad I stay away from most BSG discussion and the like, because I just can't wrap my mind around how someone could NOT have got this from the episode. I'm boggled...

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

When you think about it, there was no soap opera stuff in the first season. Just 13 strong episodes. It was the second and third seasons that had all the chaff.

Honestly, I almost quit watching it cause of the geometric mess. This is the dark & forboding stuff I came for.

And I love the Gaius in Six's head stuff again. I want to know how they're connected...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

My mind is boggled by all the "Adama was exactly right about Lee (and about Baltar not deserving a trial"...

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I could NOT agree with you more; without the principle that Baltar deserves a FAIR trial, then they are only having a kind of Stalinist show trial to satisfy public opinion. They might as well go back to flushing people they dislike and suspect out of airlocks, why not?

I'm kind of in disbelief that this is even a point of debate; even leaving aside Lee's motivations, it's the baseline idea that Baltar's lawyers shouldn't do their jobs because he's "evil" and doesn't deserve a fair trial that troubles me.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Because he and Roslin and he and Tigh do not work as checks and balances anymore but as mutual support in autocracy.

Heck yeah. This is one reason I'm not fond of the A/R ship - too much power in bed together, and not enough reason to trust that they wouldn't use it the wrong way. (And no reason to think the show will hold them accountable if they do.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of in disbelief that this is even a point of debate; even leaving aside Lee's motivations, it's the baseline idea that Baltar's lawyers shouldn't do their jobs because he's "evil" and doesn't deserve a fair trial that troubles me.

Same here. I came across a comment comparing defending Baltar to Tyrol standing up for the strikers and Helo for the Sagittarans, saying that they deserve help, but evil people like Baltar deserve nothing but death, and was appalled. Lynch mob, anyone? What's a justice system worth if it is not there for all people?

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I came across a comment comparing defending Baltar to Tyrol standing up for the strikers and Helo for the Sagittarans, saying that they deserve help, but evil people like Baltar deserve nothing but death, and was appalled.

heh! Maybe we came across the same comment - I too was appalled by something like that - the idea that Baltar is "evil" and therefore doesn't deserve a fair trial.

A Rechtsstaat either is, or isn't, for EVERYONE. That's not really negotiable.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Sigh, I think that Lee is just one of those characters that people have decided to hate on no matter what. I think you're dead on about Bill.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with your assessment of Lee, he's on Baltar's defense team in spite of not because of his father. People are crazy.

I do see some mitigating factors with Bill's behaviour, which although they don’t excuse it do mean that it’s not completely representative. In Tigh’s case I don’t think he forgives his drunkenness because he’s his friend but because he just found out exactly how Ellen died and by whose hand. Bill’s no lawyer but you could make a case that Lamkin’s extraction of that information was gratuitous. It helped discredit Tigh as a witness but Tigh’s testimony was never going to be very relevant to establishing what Baltar, as opposed to the Cylons, did on New Caprica. Both sides were using him symbolically to influence the emotional responses of the judges the sort of tactic that I would guess Bill associates with his father. I think that’s a big component of his issues with the legal process, he is making a mockery of it and shouldn’t be one of the judges, he also shouldn’t have simply called off the tribunals in Litmus. I think he has a massive blind spot where the law is concerned (and Tyroll, which is a whole other can of worms) but may still have some scruples left in other areas. For example if Laura asked him to fix another election or declare military rule to avoid one she might lose I don’t think he would.

[abigail-n.livejournal.com]

season 4 is supposedly going back to the 13 episodes format

Actually, no. The network has ordered 13 episodes with an option to extend the season. So what we're going to get is either a truncated season (and a non-ending to the show, since refusing to extend the season is pretty much the same thing as not ordering a fifth season) or another 20-episode season.

But I really don't think it's possible to blame Galactica's problems on the extended format anymore. That excuse worked in season 2, but the writers have had too long to get their act back together and haven't. There's something rotten at the core and it can't be fixed with a format switch.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Seriously: what Adama needs is a reality check, and a quick one. Because he and Roslin and he and Tigh do not work as checks and balances anymore but as mutual support in autocracy. This is dangerous.

I've been saying that for a season and a half now. That and I think this ends with all three of them dying, because I think the end has to be some form of Cylons and Humans putting aside their differences to live together on Earth and I don't see how that can happen with the power-structure of Laura-Adama-Tigh remaining.

The fact that certain characters seem to be increasingly aware of this ("do you think this fleet will ever be commanded by someone not named Adama?") gives me great hope about where it's going.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

In Tigh’s case I don’t think he forgives his drunkenness because he’s his friend but because he just found out exactly how Ellen died and by whose hand.

You think he didn't know before? If the manner of Ellen's death wasn't at least in a confidential report, why would Bill believe Lee knew about it and was in a position to tell Lampkin?

Regardless as to whether or not Tigh ever explicitly told Bill - and I would agree that he probably did not - what about Sam Anders? He knew (had requested, in fact) and as Tigh's Number 2 would have been the one to deliver a report on resistance activities on New Caprica to Adama anyway, given the state Tigh was in after the evacuation.

However, I do think like you that hearing Tigh say what happened, out loud, and seeing him suffer had a huge impact on Bill's subsequent behaviour - but then he had already started to make a mockery of the law by agreeing to be a judge to begin with and by insisting on being present during Lampkin's interview with Six...

Both sides were using him symbolically to influence the emotional responses of the judges the sort of tactic that I would guess Bill associates with his father.

True. I think that's also the reason they called Laura in the stand, as opposed to Cally or any of the other people scheduled for execution during the infamous 200 raid; she's one of the most respected and admired people in the fleet, so the impact of her testimony was judged to be the greatest.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I hope so, too. And I do hope Lee remains a civilian and doesn't rejoin the military in the s4 premiere or something. Not just because that would cancel out the hereditary factor but because going back to being a pilot now would just mean going back to the same old dance with his father, whereas as a civilian he could bring in a civilian pov other than Laura's, which the show has been lacking (and Laura as president and ever since Home in harmony with Adama is not really a civilian pov anyway).

Definitely agreed that Cylons and Humans need to reconcile (and obviously not in an occupation-like manner). I've read speculation about the show ending in the humans achieving some "final defeat" (read: wipe-out) of the Cylons to save Earth and the rest of humanity etc., but that would go directly against the whole idea of genocide never being a solution or a "permissable" crime which has been constant through the show.

...and here I recall Three asking Baltar whether humanity wouldn't come after the Cylons if they left in the second or third episode of s3, and Baltar replying that the cycle of killing had to stop somewhere...

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Definitely agreed that Cylons and Humans need to reconcile (and obviously not in an occupation-like manner). I've read speculation about the show ending in the humans achieving some "final defeat" (read: wipe-out) of the Cylons to save Earth and the rest of humanity etc., but that would go directly against the whole idea of genocide never being a solution or a "permissable" crime which has been constant through the show.

Ugh. I hope not. Part of the show's thesis from the beginning has been that it's not enough for the humans to survive-- they have to be worthy of surviving. Otherwise they will be replaced. Genocide would NOT be worthy of survival, IMHO.

Although if you ask me, most of BSG's fandom is /extremely/ deluded about what the show is actually /showing/ us. Adama and Roslin may be main characters, but the narrative is extremely uncertain if we're supposed to find them moral and correct heroes. Or for that matter, on the evils of Gaius Baltar and Caprica Six. (Baby killer, but she did it out of mercy?)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Yes. I remember watching the miniseries and thinking "that's the first time I've seen a character kill a baby presented to show her ambiguity as opposed to evilness. I was very surprised when I later found out that wasn't how a lot of fandom perceived it, and gratified when Tricia Helfer said in an interview that she had played the scene with this in mind.

Speaking of interviews, I'm always wary of reading what headwriters of a show have to say, but did you see a couple of days ago that Ron Moore said on the Q & A on scifi.com that to him, Gaius was the most human character on the show? (Not best, obviously, human. As I wrote something like that mid-season 2, I feel just the tiniest bit smug.)

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Which is so funny, because even absent the later knowledge that Six wants to have children, badly (or at least, the Head!Six. I actually cannot recall if Caprica has outright said as much) it plays very much out of mercy as she looks back on the stroller before she leaves.

I had no doubt; he's said as much in podcasts before.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

That's just really strange, because Lee's motivations seemed so very obvious to me, and so much like the Lee of S1 and S2 that I almost cheered at the return of that character. I *remember* this Lee, who cares about principles and will do what's "right" even when it hurts the people he loves. I loved that Lee.

I think part of the problem is that the show set up the tribunal early in the season, and they airlocked Cylon sympathizers without anything like due process. Why does Baltar deserve better than them? Well, I'm not sure he does, but personal opinions shouldn't matter - the tribunal was *wrong* and now they're trying to do it the right way and we should be glad of that, even if it lets off somebody who probably should pay for his crimes against humanity. If you want to really save humanity, then you need to act in a humane manner.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Part of the show's thesis from the beginning has been that it's not enough for the humans to survive-- they have to be worthy of surviving. Otherwise they will be replaced. Genocide would NOT be worthy of survival, IMHO.

But I've always hated that it's the CYLONS mostly who bring that up; how did they get to be judge, jury and executioner in the matter of humanity's survival? And doesn't this mean that they are not worthy of survival?

I think the show suffers from having shifted its premise so significantly from the earlier episodes - I still can't reconcile myself to the idea that the tiny remnants of the human population, who have twice been subjected to unprovoked attacks by the Cylons (whatever we learned in "Hero" certainly doesn't justify the Cylons wiping out BILLIONS of people!) ever really being comfortable with "living with the Cylons" unless the CYLONS are radically changed, somehow. (Maybe just an apology would be a good start.)

[queenbookwench.livejournal.com]

I think I'm watching the show you're watching--I absolutely agree about Adama's tendency to put personal loyalty first, and how it's playing out here. I do think Lee's defense of principle (which is an important element of his character) is mixed with other motives, but that doesn't make me dislike him. It just makes him more interesting.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. Early on I didn't get the impression we were supposed to think the airlocking was the right way to go (just to understand why the characters might think so, but still not to cheer them on), and now, as you say, they're trying to do the more difficult but right thing. It also puts the characters who originally condemmed the tribunal - Roslin and Adama - to the test themselves; Baltar as the criminal is personal to them in a manner Jammer and the others were not.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

True, and I don't think principle is his only motive, either, but it is, in this particular case, the most important one.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Yes, indeed! Adama values loyalty far more than he values democracy. It comes, I think, from his military background..the most important thing to him is that his crew follows his orders, and by doing so reinforces his belief that what he is doing is the right thing. When Lee questions that belief, and follows his own principles, Adama can only see that Lee is disloyal, not that he is doing what he believes is right.
There doesn't seem to be anyone who will call Adama on this, other than Roslin, who isn't doing much about it.
I think Lee feels very strongly that even if Baltar is pond scum, he deserves a fair trial, and it's his duty to help that happen.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

And doesn't this mean that they are not worthy of survival?

Basically, yes? Except that I think we've seen glacially slow progress from both sides in treating one another as equals. They don't airlock Athena or Six, the Cylons let Baltar wander around the basestar eventually... sometimes they even talk to each other instead of shooting at each other first!

Also, I have the very strong feeling that the original purpose of making robot warriors was for one colony to wipe out another colony. Given that the colonies don't seem to always get along, and we /know/ they were warring against each other before their robots turned against each other.

P.S.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Apropos The fact that certain characters seem to be increasingly aware of this ("do you think this fleet will ever be commanded by someone not named Adama?") gives me great hope about where it's going.

Did you see this (http://nebakanezer.livejournal.com/31432.html)? The first bonus scene, I mean?