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selenakThe above was a quote from Fred of AtS fame, but what really got me thinking on this was a Farscape debate. ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
astrogirl2 made some excellent points about TalynJohn's body count being actually higher than MoyaJohn's thanks to the Scarran Dreadnought here, which led searose & self to speculation about the nature of the Ancients (and TJohn's complete trust as opposed to MJohn's attitude later towards Einstein).
It occurred to me that the - justified - mistrust in seemingly benevolent, superior mentor figures is something relatively new (correct me if I'm wrong). As a friend of mine put it, would Arthur have distrusted Merlin? Frodo have distrusted Gandalf? Would Luke have distrusted Obi-Wan? (Answer: no, but he should have.*g*) On the other hand, within the last decade or so, we've got the Vorlons on Babylon 5, the forcers of order as opposed to the Shadows as forces of chaos, and Kosh I definitely has the Merlin position towards Sheridan's Arthur. Despite some early warning signals (such as the Vorlon's willingness to let Delenn be interrogated by Sebastian, aka Jack the Ripper, or their threatened retaliation in the pilot), the show's heroes and the audience are lulled into thinking of the Vorlons as trustworthy, even angelic, superior forces. This includes, interesting for Farscape fans, the way the parent card is played - Kosh appears to both G'kar and Sheridan as their respective fathers. When the first doubt as to the nature of the Vorlons is voiced ("if you see a Vorlon, you see exactly what you are meant to see"), it's by agents of the Shadows, so of course the audience discounts this.
Then, in season 4, the bill for trust in benevolent parent figures arrives: the Vorlons reveal themselves as ruthless bastards of the first order who don't care about the body count, as long as they're proven right in their eternal war with the Shadows. JMS, the show's creator, has been head to say that the showdown between the Alliance on the one hand, and the Shadows and Vorlons on the other, is all about killing your parents. So far, so Freudian, though he muddles waters by including yet another parent figure in the game, Lorien, who as the deus ex machina and the superior force to both Shadows and Vorlons offers the solution to get rid of them without actually killing them. But Lorien or no Lorien, the lesson remains - don't trust these superior mentor types.
In the Jossverse, which started out, after all, with a show based on adolescence and rite of passage as a premise, it's not surprising that the first superior authority institution, the Council of Watchers, is discredited as early as season 3. During the first three seasons, there were some, but only a few hints (in Becoming and Amends that I can think of), at some superior supernatural forces who also operate as guiding figures. This was detailed further in the spin-off, AtS, where The Powers that Be were talked about on a regular basis. Again, like the Watchers on BTVS at first (I'm talking movie and first two seasons here), they seemed benevolent - interested in guiding Angel towards his redemption, giving Cordelia the painful but ultimately beneficial gift of visions which in turn enabled her and her friends to help others. Much like the Vorlons on B5, they had their visible evil counterpart not just in the occasional villain of the week but in the established, organized villains, Wolfram & Hart and the ominous "Senior Partners".
There are actually some B5 references in both BTVS and AtS. I suppose it's not surprising that TPTB started to look more suspiciously over the seasons. Again, there were hints you can argue about at first. But come season 4, we got the Jasmine arc. (While simultaneously season 7 on BTVS revealed that the very existence of Slayers started with a massive violation - the image of the First Slayer chained to the ground is one which will always stay with me.) Now Skip might have been boasting a lot, and Jasmine could have been exaggerating or being economical with the truth somewhat when defining herself as one of the Powers. But according to David Fury and Tim Minear at the Succubus Club, Joss' basic idea for Jasmine - who look quit a lot like a Vorlon in her tentacly form -, or rather, Jasmine's aim, was for it to be an enforced garden of Eden status for humanity. Good without choice. And all the dead who Jasmine, or her helpers, killed on the way justified by achieving this much as the Vorlons justify their slaughter in season 4 by the idea that the complete defeat of the Shadows will be worth it.
Angel & Co. reject this fate for humanity (with the added irony that Angel later chooses it for Connor, in a way). Whether or not the rejection of Jasmine means that in the future, The Powers That Be (whose status remains ambiguous - their only undoubtedly benevolent act this season was the Darla and Connor meeting, and Connor, the only one who witnessed this, does no longer remember it) will be rejected as well, only future episodes will tell.
Firefly, in what episodes we have (insert obligatory rant at Fox here), operates without any apparently benevolent superior forces altogether, be they human, alien or supernatural. I don't think some would shown up later; in the Firefly universe, distrust at authority is already firmly established, and parental rejection has taken place. But then again Joss might have surprised us and opted for the need of reconciliation instead?
The distrust of Wise Old Men has infiltrated the Star Wars universe as well. If Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" attitude in the OT has made him look less than saintly and Gandalfian for only a few fans, the prequels have indicted the entire Jedi Order of the Old Republic as deeply flawed. There are no superior authorities in wisdom or morality in the prequels (which is one of the reasons why I love them), nor is there a black-and-white world view anymore. No matter whether it's Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda or the entire Council - they each make mistakes, and are shown to make them, and contribute to the tragedy developing. The only parental figure who does have all the answers and pushes things this way and that way is none other than Palpatine.
And lastly, we've got J.K. Rowling devoting an entire novel to the fallibility of father figures. Harry loses the saintly image of his real father which has been carefully build up during the earlier novels, sees his replacement father, Sirius, as equally flawed, and then loses him literally. And the Über-Father of the entire saga, Dumbledore, is robbed of his aura of flawless wisdom; he loses Harry's trust, and relations between them are only patchily repaired by the end. This in a novel where the primary villain isn't Voldemort but the ministry of magic, yet another institution which got introduced as seemingly benevolent and superior.
What's a dedicated genre fan to make of all of this? Probably draw the old Fox Mulder lesson and trust no one. Certainly not Wise Old Men (or Women). Which makes it so suprising that any incarnation of John Crichton, geek that he is, does, see above.
Some more links for Potterverse aficionados:blackfall rants very entertainingly about Fanon!Snape here, and Canon!Snape facts are listed here..
Hm. And:
Hm. Considering I lurked for quite a while beforeraincitygirl gave me an lj code, this could be true...
astrogirl2 made some excellent points about TalynJohn's body count being actually higher than MoyaJohn's thanks to the Scarran Dreadnought here, which led searose & self to speculation about the nature of the Ancients (and TJohn's complete trust as opposed to MJohn's attitude later towards Einstein). It occurred to me that the - justified - mistrust in seemingly benevolent, superior mentor figures is something relatively new (correct me if I'm wrong). As a friend of mine put it, would Arthur have distrusted Merlin? Frodo have distrusted Gandalf? Would Luke have distrusted Obi-Wan? (Answer: no, but he should have.*g*) On the other hand, within the last decade or so, we've got the Vorlons on Babylon 5, the forcers of order as opposed to the Shadows as forces of chaos, and Kosh I definitely has the Merlin position towards Sheridan's Arthur. Despite some early warning signals (such as the Vorlon's willingness to let Delenn be interrogated by Sebastian, aka Jack the Ripper, or their threatened retaliation in the pilot), the show's heroes and the audience are lulled into thinking of the Vorlons as trustworthy, even angelic, superior forces. This includes, interesting for Farscape fans, the way the parent card is played - Kosh appears to both G'kar and Sheridan as their respective fathers. When the first doubt as to the nature of the Vorlons is voiced ("if you see a Vorlon, you see exactly what you are meant to see"), it's by agents of the Shadows, so of course the audience discounts this.
Then, in season 4, the bill for trust in benevolent parent figures arrives: the Vorlons reveal themselves as ruthless bastards of the first order who don't care about the body count, as long as they're proven right in their eternal war with the Shadows. JMS, the show's creator, has been head to say that the showdown between the Alliance on the one hand, and the Shadows and Vorlons on the other, is all about killing your parents. So far, so Freudian, though he muddles waters by including yet another parent figure in the game, Lorien, who as the deus ex machina and the superior force to both Shadows and Vorlons offers the solution to get rid of them without actually killing them. But Lorien or no Lorien, the lesson remains - don't trust these superior mentor types.
In the Jossverse, which started out, after all, with a show based on adolescence and rite of passage as a premise, it's not surprising that the first superior authority institution, the Council of Watchers, is discredited as early as season 3. During the first three seasons, there were some, but only a few hints (in Becoming and Amends that I can think of), at some superior supernatural forces who also operate as guiding figures. This was detailed further in the spin-off, AtS, where The Powers that Be were talked about on a regular basis. Again, like the Watchers on BTVS at first (I'm talking movie and first two seasons here), they seemed benevolent - interested in guiding Angel towards his redemption, giving Cordelia the painful but ultimately beneficial gift of visions which in turn enabled her and her friends to help others. Much like the Vorlons on B5, they had their visible evil counterpart not just in the occasional villain of the week but in the established, organized villains, Wolfram & Hart and the ominous "Senior Partners".
There are actually some B5 references in both BTVS and AtS. I suppose it's not surprising that TPTB started to look more suspiciously over the seasons. Again, there were hints you can argue about at first. But come season 4, we got the Jasmine arc. (While simultaneously season 7 on BTVS revealed that the very existence of Slayers started with a massive violation - the image of the First Slayer chained to the ground is one which will always stay with me.) Now Skip might have been boasting a lot, and Jasmine could have been exaggerating or being economical with the truth somewhat when defining herself as one of the Powers. But according to David Fury and Tim Minear at the Succubus Club, Joss' basic idea for Jasmine - who look quit a lot like a Vorlon in her tentacly form -, or rather, Jasmine's aim, was for it to be an enforced garden of Eden status for humanity. Good without choice. And all the dead who Jasmine, or her helpers, killed on the way justified by achieving this much as the Vorlons justify their slaughter in season 4 by the idea that the complete defeat of the Shadows will be worth it.
Angel & Co. reject this fate for humanity (with the added irony that Angel later chooses it for Connor, in a way). Whether or not the rejection of Jasmine means that in the future, The Powers That Be (whose status remains ambiguous - their only undoubtedly benevolent act this season was the Darla and Connor meeting, and Connor, the only one who witnessed this, does no longer remember it) will be rejected as well, only future episodes will tell.
Firefly, in what episodes we have (insert obligatory rant at Fox here), operates without any apparently benevolent superior forces altogether, be they human, alien or supernatural. I don't think some would shown up later; in the Firefly universe, distrust at authority is already firmly established, and parental rejection has taken place. But then again Joss might have surprised us and opted for the need of reconciliation instead?
The distrust of Wise Old Men has infiltrated the Star Wars universe as well. If Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" attitude in the OT has made him look less than saintly and Gandalfian for only a few fans, the prequels have indicted the entire Jedi Order of the Old Republic as deeply flawed. There are no superior authorities in wisdom or morality in the prequels (which is one of the reasons why I love them), nor is there a black-and-white world view anymore. No matter whether it's Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda or the entire Council - they each make mistakes, and are shown to make them, and contribute to the tragedy developing. The only parental figure who does have all the answers and pushes things this way and that way is none other than Palpatine.
And lastly, we've got J.K. Rowling devoting an entire novel to the fallibility of father figures. Harry loses the saintly image of his real father which has been carefully build up during the earlier novels, sees his replacement father, Sirius, as equally flawed, and then loses him literally. And the Über-Father of the entire saga, Dumbledore, is robbed of his aura of flawless wisdom; he loses Harry's trust, and relations between them are only patchily repaired by the end. This in a novel where the primary villain isn't Voldemort but the ministry of magic, yet another institution which got introduced as seemingly benevolent and superior.
What's a dedicated genre fan to make of all of this? Probably draw the old Fox Mulder lesson and trust no one. Certainly not Wise Old Men (or Women). Which makes it so suprising that any incarnation of John Crichton, geek that he is, does, see above.
Some more links for Potterverse aficionados:
blackfall rants very entertainingly about Fanon!Snape here, and Canon!Snape facts are listed here.. Hm. And:
Hm. Considering I lurked for quite a while before
raincitygirl gave me an lj code, this could be true...
