Heroes 2.22 Landslide

[selenak]

Rain in Berlin, which means hotel time, which means opportunity to post.



Firstly, I want to live in tv world, where one always learns sword fighting in minimal time and maximum efficiency.*g* But seriously, who cares, when it's possible to geek out about the George Takei trains Masi Osada sequence (and how long before someone uses icons with Sulu caps from The Naked Time, hm?)? It's just irresistable. On a more serious note, I think Hiro's interpretation of the story his father told him as a child gets the point wrong, though whether or not Kaito Nakamura also gets the point wrong or just allows Hiro to in order to let Hiro learn by himself isn't yet clear. Also, Hiro isn't the only one currently on the wrong interpretation track. The hero, wanting to unite a country, gets his power from the dragon. And his power is granted. And finally the dragon asks the hero to sacrifice the princess. Whereupon the hero plunges the sword in his own heart instead. Now call me somewhat single-minded, but I think I'm seeing certain parallels to certain speculations and predictions for another character here.

But back to Hiro. Who thinks it means to cut out his own heart - i.e. become future Hiro; meanwhile, Ando I think has the right idea, because what it means is NOT to sacrifice someone else, no matter who the princess is - a stranger or the person you love most - and it doesn't mean to take your own humanity away, either; it means to sacrifice your own life. Which Ando, "non-special Ando", is currently prepared to do in order to save the world from Sylar. I love him quite a lot, and still think he'll survive because we need "normal" people on this show in addition to the super-powered ones, and because Ando's survival or death is directly tied to Hiro remaining his true self.

Meanwhile, storylines converge everywhere. Molly telling Mohinder about her "other hero", Matt, currently on his way to kill her without being aware that this is what he signed on for, being nearby brought to my attention that the phrase "my hero" is used repeatedly on this show; Claire of course used it in regards to Peter in Fallout, Molly uses it here, and Nathan uses it in his conversation with Linderman in regards to the late Mr. Petrelli, when Linderman tells him that his father failed to save the world, was weak and despaired: "My father was my hero." (More about that in a moment.) Then we have Micah asking Candice why she doesn't use her ability to "be a hero". Candice gaining depth in her scenes with Micah looks pretty much like a death sentence - see also: Eden and Isaac - but it's still neat to see, and I feel somewhat smug about having observed several reviews earlier that we have no way of knowing whether her "Candice" appearance is her real one. As the invidiual specials have powers which you usually can connect and/or contrast to something in their personality, it makes Candice the illusionist, who delights in taunting people, would have a natural appearance that got her mocked and scorned before her abilities kicked in. Also, interestingly Candice appears genuinenly convinced of the Linderman plan, as opposed to being just a pragmatist working for the richest guy on the block.

Linderman's conviction of being able to read and predict people is what turns out to be his Achilles heel here. He thinks he knows how Jessica ticks, and he's not completely wrong, but the one issue he never factored in was the possibility that Jessica would voluntarily allow Niki control so that Niki might resist temptation. No matter whether you think of Jessica as an alternate personality created by Niki in the wake of the death of her sister Jessica, or genuinenly seperate entity, Jessica came into existence to protect Niki. That was far from her only goal later on, but it was the first and original one, and Jessica knows Niki does not want DL dead and could not, literary, live with herself if Jessica took Linderman's money, shot DL and ran. In the Five Years Gone future, we saw Niki grieving for Jessica; here, we see Jessica giving up her supremacy for Niki. That's what Linderman didn't factor in. He knew that Jessica cared for Micah, but he had ignored what Jessica feels for Niki.

Is DL dead or just mostly dead? When last seen, he still moves, and given his phasing ability he could use that to get rid of the bullet at least. If he dies, though, it means we're already on a different time line than the Five Years Gone one, as DL there survived long enough for Sylar to take his ability. Either way, despite what he told Nathan I hadn't seriously believed DL would be the one to kill Linderman, so kudos to the show for surprising me, and again, Linderman's confidence in his control of people becomes his downfall; he didn't count on DL being ever more than a tool.

Mr. Bennet and Matt continue to be great foils, and if they both survive, I hope these won't be the last scenes we get with them. I love that the show continues to keep Bennet ruthless, despite his joining the White Hats; he was aware "the Walker system" was a person, and deliberately didn't tell Matt or Ted, because he knew they'd balk at murder. He just didn't know it was a little girl, which stunned him. Mind you, even without the Mexican stand-off with Mohinder, I don't think the show would let kill Bennet Molly, because Bennet is a sympathetic character now, and sympathetic characters aren't allowed to kill children, so he'll probably stop at the last minute. With Mohinder, the show has given him an excuse for doing so.

Audrey is back! I was so hoping we hadn't seen the last of her. You know, as cadesama said the other day, it would be a lovely irony if none of the superpowered folk but Audrey were the one to eventually take out Sylar, he of the "I'm the most specialest ever" complex: a policewoman doing her job. Granted, in this episode he used her, but I think by giving her the name "Isaac Mendez" he might have made a crucial mistake. She has seen him now, and soon the police will discover Isaac is dead, and has been for a while, so Audrey will know whom she talked to, and how he looks like. And Sylar hasn't got Candice's illusions yet.

Claire wanting to be a patrolling superhero once the world is saved was wonderful, though I wonder whether more trauma is in store for her that is responsible for having chosen NOT to do that in the "Five Years Gone" future. If we're already on a seperate timeline, the point is moot, I guess; if the timeline hasn't separated yet, I have some guesses relating to the second promo, which I'll mention later.

This was the first episode in which we saw Peter use the telepathy he absorbed from Matt since Fallout; presumably meeting Matt again has reminded him he can do this. Very useful in the Sylar regard, and perhaps others.

Most heart-breaking scene of the episode: without question Hiro and Nathan. The friendship that had sprung up between them had been a very unexpected and always very delightful aspect of the show, and to see Hiro disappointed by his Flying Man was incredibly sad. Even more so because what Hiro hears and what Nathan says are two different things - what Nathan says is resignation - "this will happen" ; what Hiro hears is a taunt - "you can't stop it". And yet Hiro's cries of "villain" (echoing their conversation in Godsend) serve an emotional truth here, and I think it's important for the continuing story that Nathan hears them. (The counterpoint to the Linderman-and-Angela uttered justifications, and pronounced by the one person outside the family Nathan was shown as genuinenly liking and being nice to without getting an advantage of his own.) Paradoxically, this scene also confirmed to me they'll go for the non-evil route with Nathan, though whether they'll go for the last minute act of heroism and death or for survival I still don't know. Why? Because Hiro getting disillusioned if Nathan actually stays on the dark side path would serve no purpose in this episode, it would come in the last one, and presumably would lead directly to a showdown and/or death scene.

The Nathan and Linderman scene and Nathan's acceptance speech at the end frame the episode in a way, and in quite a layered way; they also need to be considered together. On one level, Nathan's speech is the usual political double talk, a standard victory speech of a voted politician, and hypocritical at that because to get to this point, he has made Faustian deals. (Also, his election is a fraud, though it's interesting Linderman never told Nathan that; he did say he'd make sure Nathan wins in .07%, but he never specified the method, and since Nathan starts their early conversation by bringing up the polls, it's obvious he still doesn't know.) (If Nathan survives the season, though, I bet the next one will have an investigation into the vote subplot.) On another, the speech is full of echoes. Linderman's "healing the world" phrase, yes, but more pointedly, all the references to family: children, brother, father. "Pa would have me committed for even considering this insanity," Nathan tells Linderman (incidentally, it's interesting that Nathan calls their parents "Ma" and "Pa" whereas Peter refers to them as "Mom" and "Dad"), and, as quoted above, there is the "my father was my hero" retort to Linderman's "your father was weak".

Speculation: Petrelli Senior was the one originally meant to go to the White House via major catastrophe first, but he couldn't go through with it and killed himself. That, or he was killed, which is also an option.

Linderman then heals Heidi, providing a miracle, which was probably meant as an example (as well as a way to put Nathan even more in his debt): the healing of an injury he himself caused. He puts his emphasis on both the inevitability of the explosion, and the "what we do next, that is what counts" lesson. What does come next, though? Especially given the question of parental examples? When Linderman just before DL and Jessica showed up later mentions on the phone with his flunky that the Petrelli family will be extracted and emphasises to make sure "they're all there", it solved one question for me - if Nathan has come to believe the impending explosion will be inevitable, why let his wife and children stay around? - and set up another speculation, which Nathan's final speech strengthened: he'll let Heidi and the boys - and presumably Angela Petrelli, too - be brought to safety via Linderman's flunky... but he himself will stay in New York. Now whether at this point this is because he knows he could fly to safety on his lonesome, or because he actually intends to die (father as example), especially given that Hiro told him the future and he himself will be bad (and I think Nathan believes in Hiro's abilities at least as much as in everyone else's predictions), or whether he still hasn't made up his mind and wants to find out where Peter is, I don't know. But I think this is why Nathan is present in both of Peter's visions of the explosion.


And now some Claire-related promo speculation, based on the Canadian promo:

Claire saying "the future is not written in stone" is making the most eloquent case for free will on this show yet. She could say it to Peter or Nathan. The clip which has her saying "how can you not do something to stop it?" with Angela standing behind her has to be adressed to Nathan. On the other hand, the clip where she says "I trusted you" can't be addressed to Nathan, as she doesn't (trust him, that is) - the two people Claire trusts right now are Mr. Bennet and Peter. Of the two, Mr. Bennet could be the adressee if he tries to get her out of town against her will despite Claire's declaration that she wants to say and help save world, or it could be Peter, but then I'm stumped for a reason. Maybe whatever the reason is could explain why Five-years-gone-Claire isn't in the heroes business and definitely not anywhere near Peter?

Comments

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

Love your meta. I wish I had something to contribute beyond: Aiee!!!

I think Claire is going to be instrumental in saving Peter, in some way. The promos show Peter collapsing in an alleyway, Claire diving out of a window, Claire running (holding the gun!)...and it looks like she's running towards Peter and Sylar.

OTOH, several characters are looking up at the sky, suggesting that *someone* is flying.

Claire saying, "I trusted you": I really can't make sense of this. I can't imagine Peter or HRG letting her down at this point.

Also, Hiro isn't the only one currently on the wrong interpretation track.

Agreed. And I like how the show never has a single message: Claire's defiance in next week's promo provides a great contrast to Nathan and Isaac, who believe that you *can't* stop the future.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I could see HRG pulling a Jack Bristow on Claire, i.e. trying to get her out of New York against her will, if he believes that is the only way to save her. But that's the only theory I have right now.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Great meta, as always. Probably more later, but first, this:

And finally the dragon asks the hero to sacrifice the princess. Whereupon the hero plunges the sword in his own heart instead. Now call me somewhat single-minded, but I think I'm seeing certain parallels to certain speculations and predictions for another character here.

The interesting thing about this was for me that the story doesn't end where Hiro ended it.

YamagatoFellowship.org, one of the tie-in sites for the show, which apparently follows Kaito Nakamura's attempts to find out more about super-powered people through the ages, has this story listed among several others, and after Kensei stabs himself, the dragon is so delighted by his will to sacrifice himself that he gives him a new heart and revives him. So, even if the predictions come to pass, this might be an interesting twist to ponder on.

(The site itself is interesting to look at, too, but has some horribly mangled versions of several myths and sagas, which often contain dragons, interestingly enough.)

Something else I remembered in connection to the story is War Buddies: Au Co, the name of the little girl is also the name of a goddess who is part of an origin myth of the Vietnamese. She is one ancestor, and the other, her husband, is a dragon named Lac Long Quan who saved her from a monster. In one of the online games connected to the comic, Lac Long Quan was a synonym for Dallas. Doesn't have to mean anything, but I just found it very interesting, since he was after all somewhat featured in this episode.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

after Kensei stabs himself, the dragon is so delighted by his will to sacrifice himself that he gives him a new heart and revives him. So, even if the predictions come to pass, this might be an interesting twist to ponder on.

Hmmmm. That is indeed very intriguing.

In one of the online games connected to the comic, Lac Long Quan was a synonym for Dallas. Doesn't have to mean anything, but I just found it very interesting, since he was after all somewhat featured in this episode.

Of course, if the comics are canon, then his fall started when he killed the girl (and wiped out her village), so perhaps it's that this was the turning point for him - it was for Linderman, who learned the "lives can be sacrificed" lesson from that...

Further comments

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Candice gaining depth in her scenes with Micah looks pretty much like a death sentence

Let me propose a different option (I feel like that's all I do these days in fannish matters; thinking up alternative destinies for endangered characters. Must be the season.): by killing Linderman, whom she obviously considered a mentor-type figure - remember her phone conversation with him last week where she was positively glowing when he apparently complimented her talents - the show has perfectly set her up as someone who could execute revenge on anyone and everyone who is involved in this, but at the very least on Jessica and D.L., which should prove an interesting conflict since she seemed to honestly like Micah. Besides, she has been on the show only for a very short time, it seems like quite a waste; and last not least, her death at the hands of Sylar in 5YG should make her a little safer in the current timeline.

I hadn't seriously believed DL would be the one to kill Linderman

Me neither; I was positively surprised, in fact (not necessarily by the manner of killing, certainly. Ugh.). It occured to me that him stepping in front of Niki before Linderman could shoot her nicely fit with Kensei's story; he was willing to sacrifice himself for another person without a second thought. Well played. (Of course, the roleplaying gamer in me shouted: Take her hand and phase the bullet through both of you, foolish man!, but that's a different story.)

Audrey is back! I was so hoping we hadn't seen the last of her.

Ditto. I loved her brief appearances, and I hope she doesn't die and will be able to return next season.

Also, his election is a fraud, though it's interesting Linderman never told Nathan that; he did say he'd make sure Nathan wins in .07%, but he never specified the method, and since Nathan starts their early conversation by bringing up the polls, it's obvious he still doesn't know.

I'm not completely sure, but after the conversation with D.L. and Jessica he could know. Didn't D.L. mention that Linderman took Micah because of the election? On the other hand, I'm not sure if he is already thinking pragmatically enough about the powers that he could deduce that Micah would have any. Nor am I sure if he clued in that Niki and Jessica are at least two different personalities (if not even two different people)

but he himself will stay in New York. Now whether at this point this is because he knows he could fly to safety on his lonesome, or because he actually intends to die

Intriguing. I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense, especially in light of the Hiro encounter and the conversation about his father. Although I am not sure how Nathan would manage to construct his father's suicide as something heroic, hero worship or not. It's not like Petrelli Sr. died obviously for a "good cause;" so far, it simply seems like he gave in. In light of that it's a nice characterization that Nathan calls him his hero after Linderman draws attention to his alleged "weakness" and thus implicitly to his depression - especially given how he was first shown to apparently feel about his father's illness.

Claire saying "the future is not written in stone" is making the most eloquent case for free will on this show yet.

I'm glad for it, too. I can deal easier with a definition of destiny that is also dependent on how people react to their environment, and not just something that will happen no matter what.

[This got awfully long, sorry. And I still have to answer to the Pa Petrelli - Lac Long Quan post...]

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

Also, interestingly Candice appears genuinenly convinced of the Linderman plan, as opposed to being just a pragmatist working for the richest guy on the block.

That's something that may save her life, actually. Eden and Isaac were sympathetic before their deaths (well, they were good guys, anyway), but Candice has be an evil bitch from the start, and now she's being fleshed out. And if you can't save Candice the true believer, how can you save Nathan the true believer? (And, yep, I think he pretty well converted because of Heidi. Not completely, because he's not a believer by nature, but enough.)

Is DL dead or just mostly dead? When last seen, he still moves, and given his phasing ability he could use that to get rid of the bullet at least.

I don't even think he's mostly dead. He was shot pretty much where HRG was, there's an infirmary in the building, he can phase, and the Niki/DL/Micah timeline has not yet intersected Hiro's. He still has to be on track for Five Years Gone, where he dies at Sylar's hands. And I think I may have caught a glimpse of him in the promo for next week.

Claire wanting to be a patrolling superhero once the world is saved was wonderful, though I wonder whether more trauma is in store for her that is responsible for having chosen NOT to do that in the "Five Years Gone" future. If we're already on a seperate timeline, the point is moot, I guess; if the timeline hasn't separated yet, I have some guesses relating to the second promo, which I'll mention later.

Oh, I loved that part! Claire was almost Buffy-like there, for a moment! And it's hilarious that Peter doesn't take the idea of patrolling seriously, while Claire does. That's such a reversal for them.

I think that Claire became disillusioned about superheroing based off of what happened with the explosion. They are in a different timeline, because Hiro went after Sylar early, but I don't think that's affected Peter and Claire much yet. Anyway, I think that in the Five Years Gone timeline, Peter exploding and Claire apparently witnessing it first hand destroyed her faith in him. And since her belief in herself as a hero is very much tied up in her belief in him ... yeah. You get disillusioned!waitress!Claire.

there is the "my father was my hero" retort to Linderman's "your father was weak".

That part upset me almost as much as Hiro calling Nathan a villain. His face. :(

Speculation: Petrelli Senior was the one originally meant to go to the White House via major catastrophe first, but he couldn't go through with it and killed himself. That, or he was killed, which is also an option.

Hmm, very possible. Although, Daddy Petrelli's mob connection was apparently well known enough that it sullied the family name (well, sullied more; I do think they've had a bad reputation for a few generations). I'm not sure he's very electable based on that. I wonder if perhaps he had a power that would have engineered the explosion itself.

On the other hand, the clip where she says "I trusted you" can't be addressed to Nathan, as she doesn't (trust him, that is) - the two people Claire trusts right now are Mr. Bennet and Peter.

I think it is Peter she's saying it to. It looks like he might be planning on nuking NYC to kill Sylar -- although that's crazy even for Peter.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(And, yep, I think he pretty well converted because of Heidi. Not completely, because he's not a believer by nature, but enough.)

I don't think that he is converted as much as resigned that the bomb will happen, that he can't do anything against it, and that he then has to step up and mop up what's left of the world, so to speak (rationalization like whoa, in other words). At least that's how I read his conversation with Hiro. Also, if he truly believed, shouldn't he have had hesitated a little more to turn on Linderman, given that he promised him help to gain the presidency?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That's something that may save her life, actually.

You know, I'd like that. If they flesh out Candice further and keep her, I'd be all for it. However, right now I wonder how Niki could be stopped from killing her once she gets upstairs (and I do think she doesn't need Jessica for that, in this particular situation)? Perhaps by Candice surrendering Micah voluntarily or Micah pleading (since he appears to like Candice)?

(I also wondered whether they had her mention she's "large" because once she dies we'll see her revert to her original form, but that's academic, I suppose.)

Of course, in the Five Years Gone timeline Candace lived long enough to meet her death by Sylar, not Niki (with or without DL), so that augurs for her making it out of the explosion day alive...

And I think I may have caught a glimpse of him in the promo for next week.

I did, too, but with Candice in the building, that's no guarantee.*g* Though I agree with you - he should survive because they haven't met Hiro yet.

Unless... Nathan didn't tell DL and Jessnika where Linderman was in the original timeline but did now because of what Hiro said. But I don't think so; they'd have staged the scene differently if that was the case.

I think that in the Five Years Gone timeline, Peter exploding and Claire apparently witnessing it first hand destroyed her faith in him. And since her belief in herself as a hero is very much tied up in her belief in him ... yeah. You get disillusioned!waitress!Claire.

*nods* Okay, that works for me.

That part upset me almost as much as Hiro calling Nathan a villain. His face. :(

Nathan has what I call the Londo Mollari effect on me. The Londo Mollari effect is best described as wanting to shake/punch a character and hug him in the same episode. How I made it through two years of B5 before Londo saw the light, I don't know....

I think it is Peter she's saying it to. It looks like he might be planning on nuking NYC to kill Sylar -- although that's crazy even for Peter.

Wow. I never thought of that, and it would be an absolutely awesome twist, with some serious dark side issues for Peter to deal with next year. Could this be what some guy is referring to when he tells Angela that Linderman is betting on the wrong brother in the global promo?

Re: Further comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

by killing Linderman, whom she obviously considered a mentor-type figure - remember her phone conversation with him last week where she was positively glowing when he apparently complimented her talents - the show has perfectly set her up as someone who could execute revenge on anyone and everyone who is involved in this, but at the very least on Jessica and D.L., which should prove an interesting conflict since she seemed to honestly like Micah. Besides, she has been on the show only for a very short time, it seems like quite a waste; and last not least, her death at the hands of Sylar in 5YG should make her a little safer in the current timeline.

All good points, and you've swayed me to the Candice survives side of the force.

(Of course, the roleplaying gamer in me shouted: Take her hand and phase the bullet through both of you, foolish man!, but that's a different story.)

LOL. Well, DL hasn't gone through as much training as Kitty Pryde did. No X-Mansion around yet!

I'm not completely sure, but after the conversation with D.L. and Jessica he could know. Didn't D.L. mention that Linderman took Micah because of the election? On the other hand, I'm not sure if he is already thinking pragmatically enough about the powers that he could deduce that Micah would have any.

I'll rewatch, but I think DL said "he took our son", not specifying way. I mean, it's obvious Linderman wouldn't just take a kid without a pragmatic reason, but as you say, Nathan blocks and surpresses thinking about the powers at the best of times, and I don't think he'd automatically deduce "hm, maybe this child has some power that allows Linderman to win the election for me". I mean, Niki mentioned in Vegas her son is a boy genius and supersmart, but that's nothing to use to rig elections, and nobody else told Nathan a gift like Micah's exists, either.

Nor am I sure if he clued in that Niki and Jessica are at least two different personalities (if not even two different people)

He could have - Niki said "so Jessica knows she's no longer in control" as an argument as to why he should knock her out, but then she could have spoken of a partner she was working with at the time; Jessica says "Niki thought you would kill Linderman", but again, there are other possible explanations, like given that she's with her husband now, maybe this means "Niki" was a pseudonym she used in Vegas and she doesn't want her husband to know. He does not treat her differently as either Niki or Jessica, so I think he doesn't understand it yet.

In light of that it's a nice characterization that Nathan calls him his hero after Linderman draws attention to his alleged "weakness" and thus implicitly to his depression - especially given how he was first shown to apparently feel about his father's illness.

Once we have the finale behind us, I'm going to write some meta on the Petrelli parents and how each of their sons saw them. The "hero" declaration taken together with the revelation in ep 2 that Nathan was aware that the "heart attacks" were suicide attempts is fascinating. It gives his answr to Peter's "why didn't you tell me" (which is a very different one from Angela's reply to the same question anyway), "because everyone is entitled to their secrets, Peter", another layer.

[wychwood]

Great thoughts! I don't really have anything to add, but you make some really good points here.

*looks forward to the finale*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Me too. I'll be either a hyper fangirl or in serious need of virtual handholding and shoulder lending for sobbing on Tuesday noon...

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Great meta from everyone here!
I have nothing of interest to add..just that I can't wait for the finale.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

I think it is Peter she's saying it to. It looks like he might be planning on nuking NYC to kill Sylar -- although that's crazy even for Peter.

Or maybe he comes up with a way to kill Sylar that depends on Peter dying too. Your theory makes a lot of sense, but I really hope she's not saying it to Peter because I just love the friendship between those two and I'd hate to see Claire's trust in another person destroyed.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I love him quite a lot, and still think he'll survive because we need "normal" people on this show in addition to the super-powered ones, and because Ando's survival or death is directly tied to Hiro remaining his true self.

Oh, I definitely agree. I sometimes think Ando did a good job of inspiring the more innocent part of Hiro, and without him... Hiro wouldn't be the same. Though I do think we even saw a hardened HIro in this; I just want some sort of compromise, I guess. At the very least, if Ando has to die, may he somehow before tell Hiro not to become that person.


Most heart-breaking scene of the episode: without question Hiro and Nathan. The friendship that had sprung up between them had been a very unexpected and always very delightful aspect of the show, and to see Hiro disappointed by his Flying Man was incredibly sad.

You know, you have an excellent point there. Nathan and Hiro had such an interesting dynamic - it's really quite a shame.

Maybe whatever the reason is could explain why Five-years-gone-Claire isn't in the heroes business and definitely not anywhere near Peter?

Yeah, I always wondered about that, why she wouldn't just hide with Peter. But then, HRG is her dad, not biological but still, so he may have had the final say.

What depresses me is that it looks like, from this epiisode, that everything is going to happen anyway. I just hope that HIro (and Ando?) knowing the future, as well as Nathan, does something. Or that as it's previously been suggested, going ito the future changes it alone.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

Well, trying to get Linderman killed doesn't mean that he doesn't believe Linderman is right about the future. It just means he hates him and is willing to hedge his bets. I think he's completely on board with the plan because of how often he talks about "miracles" (hmm, do you think that's supposed to play to a lapsed Catholic angle?) and his victory speech. He doesn't sound resigned to me, since it seems he really does think good can come from letting the explosion happen.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

However, right now I wonder how Niki could be stopped from killing her once she gets upstairs (and I do think she doesn't need Jessica for that, in this particular situation)? Perhaps by Candice surrendering Micah voluntarily or Micah pleading (since he appears to like Candice)?

Niki does have something else on her mind, at the moment, so so may not be quite as revenge driven. Candice might well surrender him voluntarily. He's done his job, and I think Candice assumes she's done babysitting, now. Although, I think Niki will still smack Candice around a little bit.

OTOH, I don't think Candice will take kindly to Linderman being dead.

(I also wondered whether they had her mention she's "large" because once she dies we'll see her revert to her original form, but that's academic, I suppose.)

Good point. I think there will be pay off on that line somehow.

Nathan has what I call the Londo Mollari effect on me. The Londo Mollari effect is best described as wanting to shake/punch a character and hug him in the same episode. How I made it through two years of B5 before Londo saw the light, I don't know....

Ahahaha. That's what I call the Anakin Skywalker effect, personally.

Wow. I never thought of that, and it would be an absolutely awesome twist, with some serious dark side issues for Peter to deal with next year. Could this be what some guy is referring to when he tells Angela that Linderman is betting on the wrong brother in the global promo?

Very possibly. I think that the scene with Claire talking to Nathan and Angela probably also has Peter in it (Peter and Claire haven't separated for two episodes now, and the angle is too tight to see how many people are really there in that clip) -- and that they are trying to convince Peter to blow up on purpose. Given Claire's "The future is not written in stone" I think they may actually convince him. Rejecting his family, believing the worst of Nathan ... those are not Peter's talents.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

I don't think Peter will completely betray her trust. Not irreparably. But it looks like he's going to need Claire to talk him down from doing something enormously stupid. And being tested like that seems good for their relationship, rather than bad.

/shipper

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

I never thought I'd be so drawn to an incest ship. *sigh* Damn Milo and Hayden and their unbelievable chemistry!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

OTOH, I don't think Candice will take kindly to Linderman being dead.

Nope. I'm curious how Angela will take it, other than pragmatically, too. Also, Angela better meet Keito Nakamura in the finale, because I want to see her with someone from the old days so we can figure out more backstory.

Incidentally, Keito gave his son virtually the same explanation Linderman gave Nathan as to why they all broke up. Seeing how the Nakamuras, Linderman and the Petrellis are ALL wealthy in the present, I wonder who started the "using power for money" thing, as the others obviously saw that as a permision to do the same, whether or not they agreed.

I think that the scene with Claire talking to Nathan and Angela probably also has Peter in it

But doesn't that promo make it look like Claire jumps out of the window next, with Angela and Nathan rushing after her? That she does definitely alone. If Peter were present during that scene, especially under those circumstances, it would make more sense for her to grab him first.

Incidentally, in the "who knows what?" category: Claire and Peter now know Sylar has Ted's power, but Nathan doesn't, and neither does Angela (unless she is clairvoyant somehow). He does, however, think there is an alternative candidate for the exploding man walking around, i.e. Ted, and when he asked Thompson about this Ted person in The Hard Part, Thompson said they "have it all under control". If Nathan really is convinced by now the explosion will happen one way or another, no matter what anyone does, it would make sense to assume what even Peter has suggested to him earlier - if Peter doesn't blow up, someone else will. To actually ask Peter to explode wouldn't just be an unforgivable step to villaindom, it wouldn't make sense under those circumstances.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

Nope. I'm curious how Angela will take it, other than pragmatically, too.

I hope she's at least a little emotionally affected. ::waves Angela/Linderman flag::

Incidentally, Keito gave his son virtually the same explanation Linderman gave Nathan as to why they all broke up. Seeing how the Nakamuras, Linderman and the Petrellis are ALL wealthy in the present, I wonder who started the "using power for money" thing, as the others obviously saw that as a permision to do the same, whether or not they agreed.

Hmm, I need to rewatch. Did he actually say they used it for money, or personal gain? Because I think they all kind went bad in different ways. The Petrellis probably didn't use their powers for money, since they were already rich, but it looks like Linderman may have even before they started.

That she does definitely alone. If Peter were present during that scene, especially under those circumstances, it would make more sense for her to grab him first.

Unless he's starting to believe Nathan and Angela. In which case Claire would just want to get the hell out of dodge. Or maybe he makes his escape one way (makes a distraction?), and she makes hers another. I just think it's odd to split them up now, when they been together for two episodes and have no reason to separate until the jumping out the window incident.

To actually ask Peter to explode wouldn't just be an unforgivable step to villaindom, it wouldn't make sense under those circumstances.

Ah, but if they're talking to Peter (maybe if he goes to them for help, which may be why Claire wants to leave, since she thinks the worst of Nathan right now), he could tell them about Sylar taking Ted's power. And then the explosion is in the hands of a wildcard, and may be off the prophecy map. So I could see them trying to convince Peter because they want more control of what's going on.

That said, I don't think Angela and Nathan are that evil. They don't seem to want to involve Peter in all this if they can avoid it, because a) they know he can't handle it and b) they want to heal the world for him.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I hope she's at least a little emotionally affected. ::waves Angela/Linderman flag::

I read the unspoilery interview excerpts sparky77 posted and where Christine Rose and Malcolm McDowell speculate about Angela and Linderman at Woodstock, and someone has to write that fanfic!

Did he actually say they used it for money, or personal gain?

Come to think of it, I seem to recall that both Linderman and K. Nakamura used the phrase "for personal gain", which as you say does not have to mean "money" in all circumstances.

They don't seem to want to involve Peter in all this if they can avoid it, because a) they know he can't handle it and b) they want to heal the world for him.

I think that's definitely why they both (in silent agreement, it seems, or perhaps it's so self evident neither has to ask) did not tell Peter about what Linderman said and suggested and avoided talking to him on a one-to-one basis (well, save for the one conversation between Nathan and Peter immediately after); presumably if he cornered either of them alone, they'd spill.

However: I think that the inevitability of the explosion to Angela's, and certainly to Nathan's self-justification now. (I don#t think he's lying to Hiro.) If the explosion happens no matter what, then they're not sacrificing Peter - not Peter's life, but Peter's future well-being, to put it mildly. If, however, Nathan believes again that the explosion can be avoided, then he no longer has that justification; so I don't think he'd make the step of making Peter a deliberate fellow culprit in asking him to make it happen.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

I think he's completely on board with the plan because of how often he talks about "miracles" (hmm, do you think that's supposed to play to a lapsed Catholic angle?) and his victory speech. He doesn't sound resigned to me, since it seems he really does think good can come from letting the explosion happen.

That's what convinced me that he still isn't emotionally on board with the plan, so to speak. He basically seems to talk himself into it. He has to repeat that someone has to make the hard choices, and that there could be miracles, because he himself doesn't have faith in them (the miracles, not the hard choices), as his mother so eloquently put it. I found his demeanour far different from Candice's, who actually is convinced that the plan is good and is going with it willingly.

As for a Catholic angle, it is possible, but what little I know about Catholicism, I got from TV shows, so I'm certainly not firm on this. I think it would fit with his intense feelings of guilt. The miracle angle would be more tricky, since he knows Heidi healing wasn't a miracle, it was Linderman's power, and Linderman didn't do that out of the good of his heart, he did it to manipulate Nathan, and I'm pretty sure Nathan knows that.

Bottomline is, he doesn't strike me as someone who actually has a lot of faith as such, seeing how desperately he clings to all that is normal and mapped out and rational, but I have no idea. I know Adrian Pasdar mentioned "He [presumably Nathan] thinks he's been send by God" in one of the group interviews, but that was before the end of the first hiatus, so I have no idea if they stuck with the idea. (And again, I see little evidence of that on the show as such)

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Could this be what some guy is referring to when he tells Angela that Linderman is betting on the wrong brother in the global promo?

Actually, that's not some guy, that's Richard Roundtree, who plays Simone's father, so this is either a flashback, or something really weird.

Oh

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

I just noticed something. I think we are operating from a simple misunderstanding: I think we both believe that Nathan thinks the explosion will happen, right? That it is inevitable?

To me, that doesn't equal "being on board with the plan." If he really were on board with the plan he would have to be actively pursuing it, which he doesn't seem to be. He is not doing anything against it either, he is simply not doing anything at all, which to me is not conviction; it's either resignation or cowardice, or a mixture of both.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

presumably if he cornered either of them alone, they'd spill.

Hmm, I wonder how practiced they are at keeping family secrets from him. I'd say very, but I think a lot of that relies on the fact that Peter often doesn't even know the right questions to ask because the secret issue occured before he was born. So what they've been doing so far fits with standard Petrelli family secret keeping. You don't lie, you simply never bring it up and control how much information the others have.

If, however, Nathan believes again that the explosion can be avoided, then he no longer has that justification; so I don't think he'd make the step of making Peter a deliberate fellow culprit in asking him to make it happen.

I'm torn on this. Because I don't think Nathan quite sees the explosion as his purview. It's the realm of these crazy miracle workers who come back from the dead and heal permanent spinal damage with a touch. Which is why I don't think he could bring himself to be an active culprit. It's not his world anymore, as far as he's concerned -- flying doesn't make him one of Them. But, at the same time, he does believe it the explosion's inevitability and, to a degree, destiny now. Might he try to convince Peter that it's his destiny to explode? Maybe. Even though it would destroy Peter emotionally -- who's to say Nathan even thinks he knows Peter, or what would hurt him anymore?