Heroes 2.07 Out of Time
Nov. 6th, 2007 02:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakIn which certain speculations turn out to be true, and others, not so much.
Firstly, I do hope this stops people asking what the point of Hiro's stint in the past is/was. I mean, I wasn't spoiled, and I still could guess Kensei wasn't going to stay there, or stay a good guy. (The "nobody can stop me because nobody can stop me" back when he had found out he could regenerate was a rather huge anvil.) Mind you, I do agree that they dragged it out so Hiro wouldn't come back before the present-day events came to a point where they could introduce the guy, but this is pretty much what happened with Hiro's sword-seeking quest in s1, wo what else is new? I do like this final chapter in old Japan; Yaeko saving the day by freeing them due to being overlooked was great, and her final goodbye from Hiro had something of a Japanese fairy tale, complete with noble resignation of parted lovers, which was very fitting. I'm not sure whether I buy Kensei was genuinenly in love with her; his disappointment seemed to be too Hiro-focused. Not necessarily in a slashy sense, though I could see that, but mostly because Hiro had presented him with an image of himself that he fell in love with, and it turned out to be a) not his and b) hollow.
As for Kensei/Adam (ha! I knew it - again, "Adam", the first man, was a giveaway of a name) in the present, the story Bob tells doesn't square with Angela and Thompson supporting plan Linderman, but then again Bob isn't the type to give Nathan the straight truth the first time around anyway. The part about them locking up Adam and "throwing away the key", though, sounds likely enough; a few years (decades?) buried alive are enough to drive anyone bloodhirsty, let alone someone of very dubious morality to begin with. As for the changes the centuries wrought before that, note Bob's description of Adam as "a visionary". Which he certainly wasn't as Kensei before meeting Hiro. Hiro is going to angst on a massive, massive scale once he clues in.
Meanwhile, they wisely didn't try to match Five Years Gone by giving us an extended look at a dystopia (and err, well, 93% of the population gone do not provide much visuals other than empty cities, which are harrowing but time consuming) in Peter's subplot but focused on the essential. Which was giving him a date for the virus spread and letting him meet his mother. I was thrilled to bits as I hadn't expected Angela as the person from the past Peter would meet (it had to be someone, obviously, but my bet was on Mohinder). It was a fantastic scene, and among other things another hint about the nature of Angela's power because did you notice she stops speaking out loud and starts to talk to Peter in his mind and then the memories come back? (Just of her, though. He still can't remember anything else, it seems, going by his reaction to Adam, but the process has started, and I bet in the next episode we'll get a full recovery.) And wow, this must be the first time (in the show) Angela spoke of Nathan as a positive example to Peter. (The contrast to their Nathan conversation in the pilot couldn't be greater.) And you've got to love Petrelli priorities. Save your brother, save the world. In that order. And just to hammer the point home as whatever happened to Nathan and Peter post-explosion would not have happened had Peter been able to control his abilities to begin with, his inability to do so again costs someone he cares about, as Caitlin ends up in the virus-ridden future.
(Sidenote: Right now, I can't see how that won't be the end of her, because if Peter & Co. prevent the virus from spreading, that timeline will cease to exist, and he can't retrieve her from it.)
Back in the present, we have Matt saving Molly and locking his father in a nightmare; they really give Greg Grunberg terrrific stuff to do this season, and he rocked in those scenes. This makes him father of the episode, and the tie between the insecurities the audience is so familiar with - "too slow, too stupid, too fat" - and his overcoming them because not only does he need to save Molly but caring for her has given him confidence that yes, he is a good cop, a good father, he's worth something - really worked for me. I also appreciate that Maury Parkman didn't twirl his moustache but tried the "vulnerable old me" number again, which might even be the truth as he sees it.
Contrasting with Maury, we have Niki - and apparantly her storyline is really meant straight, i.e. she's neither infiltrating the Company, nor is she Jessica, she did go there to get rid of her Multiple Personlity Disorder - who incapacitates herself rather than being used to kill again. I'm in two minds about this, because on the one hand this is consistent for Niki - when trying to stop herself from harming people, she either locked herself up or, in "Parasite", asked Nathan to knock herself out - but on the other, it means the integration she seemed to achieve at the end of s1 didn't result in her being confident enough to find another way in a crisis. And on the third hand, which we're at now, given her backstory, it's hard to see what quick other solution she could find, given that she realised someone was playing with her mind and knew this could have horrible results. I really liked that it was Nathan who got through to her, and the emotional continuity there; beyond their sexual attraction, they had bonded over being parents and their children in Collision, her unwillingness to kill him had enabled her to overcome her inner Jessica in "Parasite" and her visit in his office re: Micah in "Landslide" arguably resulted in the first of his actions that didn't happen in the 5YG timeline (telling her and DL where Linderman was). They have a connection, not a romantic one, but it's there.
Also? Nathan risking being stabbed with the virus vial by going towards her has to be a first (post-savingNew York the world in the s1 finale, I mean) where he does this kind of thing, risking his life, for a non-family member.
Mohinder really is in a Le Carré plot among the morally grey. For someone who's not a Mohinder fan, I really love his storyline. His doubts about Noah Bennet make so much sense if you consider that last week, he was told by Bennet to inject Monica with the virus in order to maintain his cover, that Bennet is utterly obsessed with the pictures - who don't show anything useful to bring the Company down but do show Bennet's death -, is willing to risk Mohinder's life for that (and not the larger goal), and then Mohinder gets the happy news of Ivan's demise at the hands of Noah B. He really has to wonder what the difference between Bennet and Bob is (in true Le Carré character fashion) at this point, plus while Mohinder probably is willing to die for the greater good, dying for the personal safety of Noah Bennet is another matter. And now he's asked to bring Claire in... for the greater good. I love it. Again, I think Bob is editorializing with the truth; note that he didn't mention either to Nathan or to Mohinder what Adam's abilities are. My guess is that the reason why he thinks of Claire's regenerative abilities as a potential cure - and the reason why HRG was able to describe to Claire in such detail what experiments would be made with her - is that they did that with Adam with some success, which might even be how Nathan got cured from the completely burned state he keeps seeing in mirrors. But also again, Bob isn't lying, either. At this point, I guess they do want Claire for the virus cure first and foremost. No one in their right mind would risk having such a virus around if they don't also have an antidote at hand. And the irony is, given that she wanted to use her abilities to help people, Claire might even volunteer. If she were asked. Which, unfortunately, I doubt she will be.
As there were doubts whether we were supposed to see West's and Claire's "prank" with Debbie as something good or bad: I think that's cleared up in this episode. Not only was it petty (and malicious in a JD and Veronica in Heathers fashion) but also foolishly risky. That happens if you tell a teenager to suppress, suppress, suppress, a mixture of loneliness, hormones and guilt comes into play, and your own promises are broken at the same time she breaks hers. I suspected Claire was aware that Noah was lying to them just as she was lying to him, and her last scene confirmed it. Ouch, ouch, triple ouch. Doesn't justify either her or her dad, but makes her actions additionally understandable.
Now for the trailer for next week's episode:
T
R
A
I
L
E
R
Flashback goodness reigns supreme as we'll find out what happened to the Petrellis after they took off to the sky (that image of both of them hurling over the ocean), quite how DL died, who Elle is and who her "Daddy" is, and how Peter ended up meeting the quondam Kensei, Adam, in Company custody. Given that short look at a completely burned Nathan I maintain my theory that Peter made a deal with the Company for Nathan's life, trading himself and his services in exchange. And Elle and Bob really seem to be a direct parallel to Claire and Noah. I want to time travel to next week, damn it.
Firstly, I do hope this stops people asking what the point of Hiro's stint in the past is/was. I mean, I wasn't spoiled, and I still could guess Kensei wasn't going to stay there, or stay a good guy. (The "nobody can stop me because nobody can stop me" back when he had found out he could regenerate was a rather huge anvil.) Mind you, I do agree that they dragged it out so Hiro wouldn't come back before the present-day events came to a point where they could introduce the guy, but this is pretty much what happened with Hiro's sword-seeking quest in s1, wo what else is new? I do like this final chapter in old Japan; Yaeko saving the day by freeing them due to being overlooked was great, and her final goodbye from Hiro had something of a Japanese fairy tale, complete with noble resignation of parted lovers, which was very fitting. I'm not sure whether I buy Kensei was genuinenly in love with her; his disappointment seemed to be too Hiro-focused. Not necessarily in a slashy sense, though I could see that, but mostly because Hiro had presented him with an image of himself that he fell in love with, and it turned out to be a) not his and b) hollow.
As for Kensei/Adam (ha! I knew it - again, "Adam", the first man, was a giveaway of a name) in the present, the story Bob tells doesn't square with Angela and Thompson supporting plan Linderman, but then again Bob isn't the type to give Nathan the straight truth the first time around anyway. The part about them locking up Adam and "throwing away the key", though, sounds likely enough; a few years (decades?) buried alive are enough to drive anyone bloodhirsty, let alone someone of very dubious morality to begin with. As for the changes the centuries wrought before that, note Bob's description of Adam as "a visionary". Which he certainly wasn't as Kensei before meeting Hiro. Hiro is going to angst on a massive, massive scale once he clues in.
Meanwhile, they wisely didn't try to match Five Years Gone by giving us an extended look at a dystopia (and err, well, 93% of the population gone do not provide much visuals other than empty cities, which are harrowing but time consuming) in Peter's subplot but focused on the essential. Which was giving him a date for the virus spread and letting him meet his mother. I was thrilled to bits as I hadn't expected Angela as the person from the past Peter would meet (it had to be someone, obviously, but my bet was on Mohinder). It was a fantastic scene, and among other things another hint about the nature of Angela's power because did you notice she stops speaking out loud and starts to talk to Peter in his mind and then the memories come back? (Just of her, though. He still can't remember anything else, it seems, going by his reaction to Adam, but the process has started, and I bet in the next episode we'll get a full recovery.) And wow, this must be the first time (in the show) Angela spoke of Nathan as a positive example to Peter. (The contrast to their Nathan conversation in the pilot couldn't be greater.) And you've got to love Petrelli priorities. Save your brother, save the world. In that order. And just to hammer the point home as whatever happened to Nathan and Peter post-explosion would not have happened had Peter been able to control his abilities to begin with, his inability to do so again costs someone he cares about, as Caitlin ends up in the virus-ridden future.
(Sidenote: Right now, I can't see how that won't be the end of her, because if Peter & Co. prevent the virus from spreading, that timeline will cease to exist, and he can't retrieve her from it.)
Back in the present, we have Matt saving Molly and locking his father in a nightmare; they really give Greg Grunberg terrrific stuff to do this season, and he rocked in those scenes. This makes him father of the episode, and the tie between the insecurities the audience is so familiar with - "too slow, too stupid, too fat" - and his overcoming them because not only does he need to save Molly but caring for her has given him confidence that yes, he is a good cop, a good father, he's worth something - really worked for me. I also appreciate that Maury Parkman didn't twirl his moustache but tried the "vulnerable old me" number again, which might even be the truth as he sees it.
Contrasting with Maury, we have Niki - and apparantly her storyline is really meant straight, i.e. she's neither infiltrating the Company, nor is she Jessica, she did go there to get rid of her Multiple Personlity Disorder - who incapacitates herself rather than being used to kill again. I'm in two minds about this, because on the one hand this is consistent for Niki - when trying to stop herself from harming people, she either locked herself up or, in "Parasite", asked Nathan to knock herself out - but on the other, it means the integration she seemed to achieve at the end of s1 didn't result in her being confident enough to find another way in a crisis. And on the third hand, which we're at now, given her backstory, it's hard to see what quick other solution she could find, given that she realised someone was playing with her mind and knew this could have horrible results. I really liked that it was Nathan who got through to her, and the emotional continuity there; beyond their sexual attraction, they had bonded over being parents and their children in Collision, her unwillingness to kill him had enabled her to overcome her inner Jessica in "Parasite" and her visit in his office re: Micah in "Landslide" arguably resulted in the first of his actions that didn't happen in the 5YG timeline (telling her and DL where Linderman was). They have a connection, not a romantic one, but it's there.
Also? Nathan risking being stabbed with the virus vial by going towards her has to be a first (post-saving
Mohinder really is in a Le Carré plot among the morally grey. For someone who's not a Mohinder fan, I really love his storyline. His doubts about Noah Bennet make so much sense if you consider that last week, he was told by Bennet to inject Monica with the virus in order to maintain his cover, that Bennet is utterly obsessed with the pictures - who don't show anything useful to bring the Company down but do show Bennet's death -, is willing to risk Mohinder's life for that (and not the larger goal), and then Mohinder gets the happy news of Ivan's demise at the hands of Noah B. He really has to wonder what the difference between Bennet and Bob is (in true Le Carré character fashion) at this point, plus while Mohinder probably is willing to die for the greater good, dying for the personal safety of Noah Bennet is another matter. And now he's asked to bring Claire in... for the greater good. I love it. Again, I think Bob is editorializing with the truth; note that he didn't mention either to Nathan or to Mohinder what Adam's abilities are. My guess is that the reason why he thinks of Claire's regenerative abilities as a potential cure - and the reason why HRG was able to describe to Claire in such detail what experiments would be made with her - is that they did that with Adam with some success, which might even be how Nathan got cured from the completely burned state he keeps seeing in mirrors. But also again, Bob isn't lying, either. At this point, I guess they do want Claire for the virus cure first and foremost. No one in their right mind would risk having such a virus around if they don't also have an antidote at hand. And the irony is, given that she wanted to use her abilities to help people, Claire might even volunteer. If she were asked. Which, unfortunately, I doubt she will be.
As there were doubts whether we were supposed to see West's and Claire's "prank" with Debbie as something good or bad: I think that's cleared up in this episode. Not only was it petty (and malicious in a JD and Veronica in Heathers fashion) but also foolishly risky. That happens if you tell a teenager to suppress, suppress, suppress, a mixture of loneliness, hormones and guilt comes into play, and your own promises are broken at the same time she breaks hers. I suspected Claire was aware that Noah was lying to them just as she was lying to him, and her last scene confirmed it. Ouch, ouch, triple ouch. Doesn't justify either her or her dad, but makes her actions additionally understandable.
Now for the trailer for next week's episode:
T
R
A
I
L
E
R
Flashback goodness reigns supreme as we'll find out what happened to the Petrellis after they took off to the sky (that image of both of them hurling over the ocean), quite how DL died, who Elle is and who her "Daddy" is, and how Peter ended up meeting the quondam Kensei, Adam, in Company custody. Given that short look at a completely burned Nathan I maintain my theory that Peter made a deal with the Company for Nathan's life, trading himself and his services in exchange. And Elle and Bob really seem to be a direct parallel to Claire and Noah. I want to time travel to next week, damn it.
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no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 01:44 pm (UTC)Even more than talking about Hiro's betrayal, Kensei talked about how Hiro showed him he could be a hero. I agree that's what he felt was stolen from him. And the idea of heroes as well. Kensei was doing heroic things and witnessing Hiro's own heroics -- but how can you believe in friendship or heroism when your best friend is kissing the woman you love? All of those things were tied together for Kensei, so it all crashed down at once.
As for Kensei/Adam (ha! I knew it - again, "Adam", the first man, was a giveaway of a name) in the present, the story Bob tells doesn't square with Angela and Thompson supporting plan Linderman
It certainly complicates things greatly. If we assume that the fracture in the Company occurred due to a split between Kensei's followers (Linderman, Angela, Arthur, possibly Maury and Charles) and the others, that doesn't explain how Kensei would have ended up locked up in the Company run by his disciples while they were out in the world trying to execute his plans. Unless there was either a compromise between the two sides, or his disciples turned on him and carried on his philosophy, but didn't care for him personally.
It was a fantastic scene, and among other things another hint about the nature of Angela's power because did you notice she stops speaking out loud and starts to talk to Peter in his mind and then the memories come back?
Ah, but Peter is a telepath and Angela knows how to manipulate telepaths. So I wouldn't bank on that being related to her power, actually, just another example of her unadulterated AWESOME.
(Just of her, though. He still can't remember anything else, it seems, going by his reaction to Adam, but the process has started, and I bet in the next episode we'll get a full recovery.)
Yeah, especially with this screencap (http://bp1.blogger.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Ry_rTj3mTnI/AAAAAAAAAcA/iEAu11GQ3e8/s320/Heroes-Commercial+208+A+001_0006.jpg) from the promo. I think Peter remembering will be the framing device for the next episode, since there's not going to be time travel.
(Sidenote: Right now, I can't see how that won't be the end of her, because if Peter & Co. prevent the virus from spreading, that timeline will cease to exist, and he can't retrieve her from it.)
Actually, I was just reading Greg Beeman's blog, and he referenced Back to the Future II as a model for their system of time travel and alternate time lines. And since Marty's girlfriend was left in an alternate present while they went to the past to fix it and it changed around her, there is the chance that we'll check in with Caitlin some time in 2008 and learn that she's totally fine. Not a big chance, because I don't think they care that much, but she's not necessarily dead or erased from existence.
izing with the truth; note that he didn't mention either to Nathan or to Mohinder what Adam's abilities are. My guess is that the reason why he thinks of Claire's regenerative abilities as a potential cure - and the reason why HRG was able to describe to Claire in such detail what experiments would be made with her - is that they did that with Adam with some success, which might even be how Nathan got cured from the completely burned state he keeps seeing in mirrors.
Right there with you. Of course, if Kensei's blood did heal Nathan, and Claire's blood is a cure for the virus, then a) Angela in the future is lying to Peter about Nathan being dead (entirely possible, since she was clearly manipulating him) and b) something terrible happens to Claire so that the plague ridden future comes to pass.
I want to time travel to next week, damn it.
I knooooow. Need more flashbacks!!
One
Date: 2007-11-06 01:49 pm (UTC)I'm glad it was apparently possible to puzzle that out, since I was halfway spoiled (basically, there were rumours at first that DA was cast as an immortal character, then they made him a regular and then Kensei got regeneration, so I was pretty convinced that he would turn up in the present, and I guessed he would be vain enough to chose the pseudonym "Adam.").
I'm not sure whether I buy Kensei was genuinenly in love with her; his disappointment seemed to be too Hiro-focused.
I don't even think that the show means to tell us that the disappointment is what "turned" him evil, he simply has personality flaws that got the better of him. I do think Hiro made it worse by showing him that he had powers, because knowing that he was invincible obviously inhibited any form of character growth Kensei may have experienced otherwise. In addition, Kensei never had a Peter nagging him for all of his life, so Hiro playing his conscience for a few weeks simply wasn't enough.
As for Kensei/Adam (ha! I knew it - again, "Adam", the first man, was a giveaway of a name) in the present, the story Bob tells doesn't square with Angela and Thompson supporting plan Linderman, but then again Bob isn't the type to give Nathan the straight truth the first time around anyway.
While I don't think that Bob was telling Nathan the whole truth by far, I think it's possible that we are talking different sections of the Company. Maybe Linderman simply didn't know about Adam being held captive - or Bob is tweaking the truth a bit, and Linderman adapted Adam's ideas, but did not worship Adam as a person.
One thing I don't buy is Angela being against Adam/Adam's ideas, since she was so enthusiastically on board with Plan Blow Up New York.
It was a fantastic scene, and among other things another hint about the nature of Angela's power because did you notice she stops speaking out loud and starts to talk to Peter in his mind and then the memories come back?
And wow, this must be the first time (in the show) Angela spoke of Nathan as a positive example to Peter. (The contrast to their Nathan conversation in the pilot couldn't be greater.)
Problem is, I think she was purely doing this to manipulate Peter. Especially considering that she never got too deeply into describing Nathan's character, just to "Your brother was heroic and then he died." There is quite a bit of editing going on here.
(Yes, I have finally gone over to the Darkside. I do now fully embrace the idea that Angela is evil. And very crazy. Still love her, though. )
Loved their scenes, too. I hadn't expected to see Peter and Angela together this volume, this was a very nice surprise. And of course even in a dystopian future, Angela's wardrobe and hairstyle are in top condition.
I... was wondering about Caitlin, actually. I hope what happens to her is similar to what usually happens to Ando, namely that she will notice the change from bad, bad future to good future. Not that she can do that if she is dead. Hmm. Do you think the writers noticed this?
Two
Date: 2007-11-06 01:49 pm (UTC)Back in the present, we have Matt saving Molly and locking his father in a nightmare; they really give Greg Grunberg terrrific stuff to do this season, and he rocked in those scenes. This makes him father of the episode, and the tie between the insecurities the audience is so familiar with - "too slow, too stupid, too fat" - and his overcoming them because not only does he need to save Molly but caring for her has given him confidence that yes, he is a good cop, a good father, he's worth something - really worked for me. I also appreciate that Maury Parkman didn't twirl his moustache but tried the "vulnerable old me" number again, which might even be the truth as he sees it.
The Parkman scenes delighted me in general, and you're right, Grunberg is getting some really good stuff so far.
I also felt doubly sorry for Molly to be kept in such a nightmarish flat. The wallpaper would have driven anyone to murder.
And I liked that Nathan was kind of eye-rolling at Matt behind Bob's back. He seemed pretty fed up with Elders in general this time around.
Contrasting with Maury, we have Niki - and apparantly her storyline is really meant straight, i.e. she's neither infiltrating the Company, nor is she Jessica, she did go there to get rid of her Multiple Personlity Disorder
May I congratulate you on being virtually the only one who correctly called that? Now I'm really curious what happened to D.L., though.
Also? Nathan risking being stabbed with the virus vial by going towards her has to be a first (post-saving New York the world in the s1 finale, I mean) where he does this kind of thing, risking his life, for a non-family member.
Nice, I didn't notice that. (I mostly took it as a fake out after what Angela said, since you just know they'll keep throwing random virus scares at Nathan over the next few episodes)
. For someone who's not a Mohinder fan, I really love his storyline.
Ditto. It's amazing, but I'm actually interested in what he does. Of course, I think he is making a huge mistake, but at least I am excited to see the consequences.
At this point, I guess they do want Claire for the virus cure first and foremost. No one in their right mind would risk having such a virus around if they don't also have an antidote at hand.
I wonder if this means that they would want Adam back instead of getting rid of him entirely.
And the irony is, given that she wanted to use her abilities to help people, Claire might even volunteer. If she were asked. Which, unfortunately, I doubt she will be.
One of the reasons why I can't see the Company as anything but Bad is that they don't really care all that much about people's own choices. I like the parallels here between Mohinder potentially sacrificing Noah's daughter, like Noah was willing to sacrifice Molly. And he can't honestly be so naive to think that they'll just take a bit of her blood, can he?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 02:00 pm (UTC)It makes it doubly ironic that - always provided Bob wasn't fibbing about that part - he inspired the Elders when they were Youngers to be heroes. Especially Kaito.
Unless there was either a compromise between the two sides, or his disciples turned on him and carried on his philosophy, but didn't care for him personally.
Could be that Linderman thought one big catastrophe to engineer world peace etc. was one thing, and he was behidn that, but that Adam wouldn't stop there and had become a liability. Or simply a power struggle; I doubt Adam suggested a Petrelli for the top spot of the future world (as opposed to himself), and this could be why Angela split, with Linderman doing the same because he thought he'd be the Grey Eminence (which he couldn't be with Adam) - while Angela of course knew she'd rule the world via the kids. And sans Adam.
Ah, but Peter is a telepath and Angela knows how to manipulate telepaths. So I wouldn't bank on that being related to her power, actually, just another example of her unadulterated AWESOME.
True.*g* Talk about editorializing. She only gave him Best Of Mom highlights, either way. But still, the difference from her taking in he didn't remember her - well, okay, next, - and not remembering Nathan - that's when she really went into action, it seemed to be such a gut punching moment for her.
I think Peter remembering will be the framing device for the next episode, since there's not going to be time travel.
Very likely. And talking of preview screencaps -
OMG! (http://leggyslove.livejournal.com/978825.html?#cutid1)
Of course, if Kensei's blood did heal Nathan, and Claire's blood is a cure for the virus, then a) Angela in the future is lying to Peter about Nathan being dead (entirely possible, since she was clearly manipulating him) and b) something terrible happens to Claire so that the plague ridden future comes to pass.
I think while both are possible, b) is more likely, because if Claire was still alive and her blood is a cure in 2008, more than 93% would have survived, no?
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 02:13 pm (UTC)He would be. This is the man who called himself "Sword Saint" in Japan...
I do think Hiro made it worse by showing him that he had powers, because knowing that he was invincible obviously inhibited any form of character growth Kensei may have experienced otherwise. In addition, Kensei never had a Peter nagging him for all of his life, so Hiro playing his conscience for a few weeks simply wasn't enough.
No. He turned against Hiro the first time Hiro disappointed him. I can see both Petrelli boys roll their eyes at that, if the situations weren't that serious. Really, Kensei, old buddy, if you think one kiss with your girlfriend is bad, you wouldn't have made it through one week of glorious Petrelli family life.
I think it's possible that we are talking different sections of the Company
Also possible. I mean, obviously Bob wasn't holding the position in the Company last year he has now, and wasn't even the second in command. Despite being an original elder. Could be this is because he's from a different faction.
Problem is, I think she was purely doing this to manipulate Peter. Especially considering that she never got too deeply into describing Nathan's character, just to "Your brother was heroic and then he died." There is quite a bit of editing going on here.
Indeed. She also carefully avoided tying Nathan's death to Peter in any way but telling him he could prevent it via time travel. In other words, Angela knows when to guilt trip a son and when not. (And btw, given all the "but what about the space/time continuum?" angsting Kiro did, I find it vaguely amusing Angela couldn't care less. She just wants Peter to go back and save Nathan and the world. Oh, Petrellis.)
And of course even in a dystopian future, Angela's wardrobe and hairstyle are in top condition
Naturally. (The only time she looked at less than her best was when she and Nathan had the argument in Peter's apartment and when she was attacked in the police station.)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 02:18 pm (UTC)That's one of the reasons the idea of Kensei as Arthur Petrelli amused me so much. To lose two girlfriends/wives to Nakamuras? Burn.
Could be that Linderman thought one big catastrophe to engineer world peace etc. was one thing, and he was behidn that, but that Adam wouldn't stop there and had become a liability. Or simply a power struggle; I doubt Adam suggested a Petrelli for the top spot of the future world (as opposed to himself), and this could be why Angela split, with Linderman doing the same because he thought he'd be the Grey Eminence (which he couldn't be with Adam) - while Angela of course knew she'd rule the world via the kids. And sans Adam.
That makes sense. Kensei wanted to rule half of Japan, and as the leader of the Elders, there's no way he'd settle for merely being the power behind the throne or second best. Which would set him up for having a particular grudge against the Petrellis in addition hating the Nakamuras.
Of course, at the moment, I'm leaning toward Angela actually being allied with Adam and having faked her own attack with Maury (perhaps even to draw Nathan into it to get Maury out of the way since I really do think he's a patsy; a powerful patsy, but a patsy). Angela actually doesn't seem to have a lot of control at the Company, and it could be that Adam was imprisoned against her wishes by Linderman, and once he broke out she made a deal with him.
She only gave him Best Of Mom highlights, either way. But still, the difference from her taking in he didn't remember her - well, okay, next, - and not remembering Nathan - that's when she really went into action, it seemed to be such a gut punching moment for her.
It really did, and that was startling for me. Yet, I find it interesting that she did nothing to restore Peter's memories of Nathan. If he actually remembered Nathan, he'd be too loyal to him (as Nathan is loyal to Peter, and Noah is to Claire) and that could compromise the mission Angela intends for him to carry out. I get the feeling that was sort of the 0.07% moment here, as when Angela told Nathan they'd hide Peter's death. Angela may mourn Nathan, but that's not going to get in the way of her PLAN (and note bother Adam and Angela saying they would change history).
Very likely. And talking of preview screencaps -
OMG!
Eeeee!
I think while both are possible, b) is more likely, because if Claire was still alive and her blood is a cure in 2008, more than 93% would have survived, no?
Depends on how much blood is needed. Claire may be the only reason 7% are even alive. D:
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 02:22 pm (UTC)And their endless double talk. I mean, I doubt he'll ever be able to turn his back on Angela, but the rest of them could probably die tomorrow and he wouldn't care, which is why Bob, being not stupid, plays the Peter card.
Nice, I didn't notice that. (I mostly took it as a fake out after what Angela said, since you just know they'll keep throwing random virus scares at Nathan over the next few episodes)
Absolutely, and I'm sure we were supposed to believe Niki would stab Nathan with the thing until the last second. But it's still a good character moment for Nathan. And as I said, I really liked that scene.
It's amazing, but I'm actually interested in what he does. Of course, I think he is making a huge mistake, but at least I am excited to see the consequences
Mohinder hasn't bored me once this season, which is such a contrast to the last one, and yes, I'm very interested. Also, his mistake isn't the "I randomly attract evil people" type, it makes sense in his situation. Just because fandom loves HRG and post-Company Man believes his way is the right way doesn't mean Mohinder has to.
I wonder if this means that they would want Adam back instead of getting rid of him entirely.
Well, there must be a reason why they didn't simply behead him. Which would do the trick of getting rid of him for good. So, my money is on "biological resource".
I like the parallels here between Mohinder potentially sacrificing Noah's daughter, like Noah was willing to sacrifice Molly. And he can't honestly be so naive to think that they'll just take a bit of her blood, can he?
Errr. It's Mohinder. Otoh, less naive this season. I'm not sure. The parallels are really there either way, though, and I like that they question whether "I'm willing to do everything for my daughter" is really such a good thing - for either man.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 02:32 pm (UTC)Bwhahhahahaaa. I never thought of that. But yes, that would make him as Arthur priceless. And then, you know, Linderman showed him this photo (http://pics.livejournal.com/elyssadc/pic/0003aks6) taken from the Corinthian surveillance cameras, and he decided he really had to start with the Nakamura killing now!
Angela actually doesn't seem to have a lot of control at the Company, and it could be that Adam was imprisoned against her wishes by Linderman, and once he broke out she made a deal with him.
Possible. BUT while I'd be totally willing to believe she could have faked the attack at the police station, there was no one around to witness her reaction when she found the photo of herself outside of Nathan's/Peter's apartment, and she was genuinenly shocked then. So?
Yet, I find it interesting that she did nothing to restore Peter's memories of Nathan. If he actually remembered Nathan, he'd be too loyal to him (as Nathan is loyal to Peter, and Noah is to Claire) and that could compromise the mission Angela intends for him to carry out. I get the feeling that was sort of the 0.07% moment here, as when Angela told Nathan they'd hide Peter's death. Angela may mourn Nathan, but that's not going to get in the way of her PLAN (and note bother Adam and Angela saying they would change history).
Good point. And Angela already had two demonstrations (if their previous lives weren't enough) that as long as they're both aware of each other, Peter and Nathan will always be loyal to each other first, before anything and anyone else, in the form of the Big Boom In the Sky for Nathan and, as it appears our speculation correctly said, Peter's deal with the Company to heal Nathan.
Good call on the parallel to Angela's mourning for Peter still allowing her to put the plan first in 0.07% and this as a parallel to her grief for Nathan here.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 02:44 pm (UTC)LOL. Oh, poor Kensei. He can never win.
BUT while I'd be totally willing to believe she could have faked the attack at the police station, there was no one around to witness her reaction when she found the photo of herself outside of Nathan's/Peter's apartment, and she was genuinenly shocked then. So?
Could be the point at which she got into contact with him to make a deal. Bob says that Adam was imprisoned until two weeks ago. That sounds about right for the time line of the season thus far, giving a little bit of lead time for Adam to escape and starting plotting evil. So finding the picture may have been the first indication that Adam was out and about, which was very shocking to her.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 03:04 pm (UTC)It's that fatal Nakamura charm, apparantly. Works especially well on morally ambiguous people.
Could be the point at which she got into contact with him to make a deal. Bob says that Adam was imprisoned until two weeks ago. That sounds about right for the time line of the season thus far, giving a little bit of lead time for Adam to escape and starting plotting evil. So finding the picture may have been the first indication that Adam was out and about, which was very shocking to her.
Hmm, yes, okay, I can see that. But what would either Adam or Angela gain from an alliance at this point? Angela could say "no killing of me and my offspring, in exchange for...?" but what? What can she offer him, especially if she has not much influence with the Company these days? And if she was co-responsible for keeping him locked up, she'd know any alliance would be used by him to backstab her anyway. From Kensei's pov - not only is the there question what useful thing he could get from her but what he could get that he couldn't get much better through Peter, whom he seems to have conned into a friendship/alliance before Peter's amnesia?
One thing in favour of your theory is that Angela, of all the people, is alive in the virus-ridden future. If Kensei/Adam's blood (or other body parts) were used for a vaccine (rather than a cure, considering the death rate), I can see her demanding it to be used on her, obviously.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 03:17 pm (UTC)Depends on how the time line of alliances and events works out. Maury may not have been an ally at the time of Kaito's death, and that could be what Angela had on offer. Adam killed Kaito himself, and while he does have a vendetta against the Nakamuras, that may be an indication that he didn't have Maury to make people into pawns yet. As well, when Kaito gets the photo, he says that he only has 24 hours to live. Yet that doesn't apply at all to Angela. Perhaps the photo wasn't a threat to her. Maybe she, like Linderman, was a disciple, and that afforded her a special status with Adam. Perhaps he was just trying to get into contact, and she was shocked at that, not at the idea of being threatened.
One thing in favour of your theory is that Angela, of all the people, is alive in the virus-ridden future. If Kensei/Adam's blood (or other body parts) were used for a vaccine (rather than a cure, considering the death rate), I can see her demanding it to be used on her, obviously.
Yep. Of course, she is Claire's grandmother, so we can't rule that possibility out. The big thing is I'm really, really wondering who is actually responsible for the virus outbreak. At the moment, it looks like Adam (whilst hating Hiro and killing Elders) is actually in the right. The Company is the group fiddling with the virus, and if Angela is allied with Adam, she specifically sent Peter on a mission to stop the virus. Which probably makes them the good guys.
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 03:31 pm (UTC)Humbleness doesn't seem to be his strong suit, no.
Really, Kensei, old buddy, if you think one kiss with your girlfriend is bad, you wouldn't have made it through one week of glorious Petrelli family life.
If he hadn't turned up as Adam, this at least would have been proof that he couldn't have been Arthur!
Indeed. She also carefully avoided tying Nathan's death to Peter in any way but telling him he could prevent it via time travel. In other words, Angela knows when to guilt trip a son and when not.
Practical as always.
She just wants Peter to go back and save Nathan and the world. Oh, Petrellis.
If that's what she does here, I'm with you. I just can't keep this nagging feeling away that she was lying quite a lot in those scenes.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 03:41 pm (UTC)That might be a possible explanation. Adam has formed an alliance with Peter during their imprisonment in the past months and obviously was expecting Peter to join him after both of them managed to escape. Adam going after Angela could risk losing Peter's loyalty and perhaps that's the reason why he spared her. We still don't know if she was really attacked or just faked it. Maury's attacks on Nathan, Matt and Niki were a lot more perilous than the few self-inflicted scratches Angela had.
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 03:42 pm (UTC)I'm loving this about the Elders in general. Not only are they Kinky, they are also all incredibly manipulative, and quite a few aren't all that dumb, either. I wish we could get some sort of mini series about them. Heroes: Beginnings.
But it's still a good character moment for Nathan. And as I said, I really liked that scene.
It was, and I did, too! (I just overlooked that it was a character moment at first. Bad fan.)
Also, his mistake isn't the "I randomly attract evil people" type, it makes sense in his situation. Just because fandom loves HRG and post-Company Man believes his way is the right way doesn't mean Mohinder has to.
Precisely, and it's not as if Bennet is behaving all that rationally at the moment, so I can understand why he decides to go with the seemingly more helpful group. Of course, he would probably react differently if he had any idea who Claire is, other than Bennet's daughter.
Well, there must be a reason why they didn't simply behead him. Which would do the trick of getting rid of him for good. So, my money is on "biological resource".
Sounds gruesome, but reasonable.
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 04:00 pm (UTC)I'd be so on board with that. And with Alias crossovers to the spin-off Spies - The First Generation, because I want a young Arvin, Jack and Irina meet the Elders story.
Precisely, and it's not as if Bennet is behaving all that rationally at the moment, so I can understand why he decides to go with the seemingly more helpful group.
Having now read several other reviews, I am amused to discover I'm actually in a Mohinder-defending frame of mind, because all the "how can he not see Bennet is right and Bob is The Evil" seems to be missing out that Mohinder isn't a fangirl, and Bennet's recent behaviour wasn't very trust inducing. Mohinder signed on to a "destroy the Company" gig, not a "save the life of Noah Bennet" gig, then hearing Bennet tell him the same thing Bob at first did - infecting Monica, albeit Bob said for experimental purposes and Bennet said to maintain cover, it comes to the same thing - then hearing Bennet basically tell him he's expendable and hear how other "friends" of Noah B. fared recently - I know my spy novels. This would be difficult for a pro to take without doubts, and Mohinder, as Matt pointed out, isn't a trained agent. Plus Bob just upped the ante with the "Claire could be our key to saving everyone in the future and Niki right now" thing, and so far, being smart, hasn't played the heavy by, say, threatening Molly or blackmailing Mohinder into going through with the Monica thing.
Of course, he would probably react differently if he had any idea who Claire is, other than Bennet's daughter
Here's a thought: Mohinder arrives with Claire in tow, Claire having decided to volunteer both for the cause and because of the argument with Daddy, and perhaps because she thinks that way, her family won't be in danger anymore. And the very first people she and Mohinder meet at Company headquarters are... Nathan and Bob, Nathan coming from another "but what happened to Peter?" session.
I don't think Nathan would be thrilled with either Mohinder or Bob, no.
Sounds gruesome, but reasonable.
Again I point to Noah's detailed scenario when talking to Claire, and the fact Adam/Kensei really has it in for them now.
Lastly, and unrelated: our observation that Matt like last seasons clicks better with his detection partner than with his domestic partner still stands.*g*
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 04:09 pm (UTC)Granted, he might have changed after a few centuries, but still: so with you. Now I'm imagining Heidi giving him a look of disdain, because really, what she put up with in comparison to that manly fit over Hiro's betrayal of male bonding via a kiss...
(BTW, am thrilled we'll see Heidi next week and thus find out what exactly she was told and presumably when Nathan had his big meltdown.)
If that's what she does here, I'm with you. I just can't keep this nagging feeling away that she was lying quite a lot in those scenes.
Not lying as in telling things that weren't true, just editing for her own benefit as Bob did for his. Thus the heroic picture of Nathan as someone who "flew in the face of danger" and only the listing of Peter's virtues, not weaknesses. It's not that Nathan wasn't brave, or that Peter wasn't kind, compassionate etc., but that she leaves out a lot, and the lot would be anything that could make her look bad or untrustworthy in Peter's eyes, or the past as something he might not want to return to.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 04:16 pm (UTC)Adam not harming Angela because of Peter would imply that a) he does not know about Peter's amnesia and b) he would honour an agreement with Peter. Hmmm.
BTW, did you see the preview screencap I linked to C. in my first reply above?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 04:47 pm (UTC)I concur. Yaeko was just part of the "Let's play hero for a while and enjoy the pretty girl as benefit" package. His relationship with Hiro was more personal and that showed in his reaction to the betrayal.
The part about them locking up Adam and "throwing away the key", though, sounds likely enough; a few years (decades?) buried alive are enough to drive anyone bloodhirsty, let alone someone of very dubious morality to begin with.
Yes, especially in context of how we saw him reacting so strongly to personal betrayal and he will perceive the action of the Kinky Elders as such. I'm admittedly a bit worried about Peter and Hiro right now.
Re: Angela and Peter
I agree with
His doubts about Noah Bennet make so much sense if you consider that last week, he was told by Bennet to inject Monica with the virus in order to maintain his cover, that Bennet is utterly obsessed with the pictures - who don't show anything useful to bring the Company down but do show Bennet's death -, is willing to risk Mohinder's life for that (and not the larger goal), and then Mohinder gets the happy news of Ivan's demise at the hands of Noah B. He really has to wonder what the difference between Bennet and Bob is (in true Le Carré character fashion) at this point, plus while Mohinder probably is willing to die for the greater good, dying for the personal safety of Noah Bennet is another matter.
I couldn't agree more. People are bashing Mohinder left and right for this but I felt for him in that scene. They have built up that split between Noah and Mohinder for a few episodes now and basing on the things you mention I can understand why he questions Bennet and chooses a different side. Noah's motivations to bring down the company were purely personal as were Mohinder's at first but now the impending virus threat appeals to Mohinder's scientific identity and widens the scope on what is at stake considerably. Bringing down the company now would risk more lives than cooperating and finding a cure. In addition Mohinder sees how Bennet is starting to unravel. I can understand his reasoning.
Next week: Eeeeeeeeee!
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 04:55 pm (UTC)I'll admit to being one of the people who thinks Mohinder made a HUGE, dumb mistake. However, my main take on it is not that he shouldn't be siding with the Company at the moment, but that he shouldn't have told them about the plot. I don't trust the Company. I have serious issues with them experimenting on the virus, especially given what we know from the future. I do NOT see how adding spontaneous regeneration into the picture can possibly be a good thing because I can't see how it wouldn't be the virus that mutates to regenerate, not the victims, therefore creating a supervirus that nothing can stop...
I just think as scared and amateurish as Mohinder is, he should have had enough sense to hold SOMETHING in reserve. If I'm wrong, then good! If I'm expecting too much actual science out of the show and they're going to say the spontaneous regeneration works against the virus, then even better! BUT, I have a very bad feeling about this...
no subject
Date: 2007-11-06 05:41 pm (UTC)I'm more worried for Hiro than for Peter, Peter being the one with the same de facto invulnerabiliy Kensei/Adam has, but otoh that doesn't stop "Adam" from messing with his head on a grand scale. Especially if he uses the kind of telepathy defense the Company seems to teach and Bennet displays (thinking in Japanese), so Peter can't find out he's lying that way.
Most of all, I'm worried for Ando and Kimiko. On a "I will make you suffer" note.
And while I also think she has been manipulative and her main priority was to kick Peter into gear, some of her reactions to Peter seemed genuine.
Same here. One doesn't preclude the other. I do love the Angela fleshing out we're getting this season. Oh, Petrellis, you are so screwed up and I love you so much, all of you.
People are bashing Mohinder left and right for this but I felt for him in that scene. They have built up that split between Noah and Mohinder for a few episodes now and basing on the things you mention I can understand why he questions Bennet and chooses a different side.
Exactly. It's not that I think he made the right choice, but that I think he made the understandable choice, based on what he knows and what's at stake.
...if you had told me last season I would get so invested in a Mohinder storyline and defending him, I wouldn't have believed it.
Next week: Eeeeeeeeee!
How shall I survive an entire week of anticipation!
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 05:48 pm (UTC)...and yes, it's very likely the virus mutating is entirely the Company's fault because they messed with it to begin with. (BTW, I'm assuming that in the 5YG future, there was no virus because the big explosion and wipe out of New York destroyed the vials with the mutating virus, which weren't outside of NY at that point in time.) Or that they should be trusted with it once there is a vaccine or a cure. Or that they shouldn't be brought down, full stop, but not right now. Again, based on what Mohinder knows, there is no other institution with the existing knowledge and monetary resources as qualified to fight/contain the virus. Does all of this mean he should have 'fessed up about Bennet? No. But he just heard Bennet left fingerprints all over a murder scene. (Which Bob accurately called sloppy.) And his last conversations definitely showed him Bennet is unravelling. Given all of that, how likely is it that Bob & Co. will soon find evidence Mohinder is working for Bennet on their own? And he doesn't believe Bennet would or could protect him any longer if that is the case. Whereas if he tells Bob on his own, they're more likely to believe he's on their side and not to kill him.
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 06:54 pm (UTC)Hee. "You think that's bad? My husband never told me about his illegitimate daughter, and then he crashed our car because his stupid power manifested at that point and he crippled me, but instead of working on his guilty feelings in therapy like any normal person would, he went on a boys own adventure with the FBI instead - while at the same time running for congress and taking money from that guy he planned to incarcerate. That somehow didn't keep him from cheating on me and lying about it later - and when he wasn't busy scheming, campaigning or chasing blondes, he either hung out with your little friend Nakamura or he was forever running after Peter. I'm also sure he covered up at least one murder and was involved in another, and then he had to go and get almost completely roasted in yet another attempt to save the world, which wouldn't have been so bad, if he hadn't gone completely depressed and started drinking afterwards. And do you know what the worst is? Most of this was told to me by my incredibly smug mother-in-law, whom he listens far too much to, anyway..."
(BTW, am thrilled we'll see Heidi next week and thus find out what exactly she was told and presumably when Nathan had his big meltdown.)
I can only imagine that whatever she was told was really bad (the Petrellis have a dark secret - one, Angela??!), and since Nathan seems to walk desperately through the rain among other things, that seems to be one massive meltdown indeed.
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 07:07 pm (UTC)ROTFLOL. Exactly. And that's not even mentioning the Peter Shrine or the beard or the stupid wedding photographer who seems to have made only pictures of the groom and his brother. Kensei had it so easy in comparison. Though he and Heidi could bond over this indignation (http://pics.livejournal.com/elyssadc/pic/0003aks6) from the Corinthian's surveillance tapes.
Re: One
Date: 2007-11-06 07:10 pm (UTC)But, back to our story, the picture would finally send Heidi over the edge, she would discover that Hiro Nakamura is the root of all evil, and she would join forces with Adam to destroy the world...
Re: Two
Date: 2007-11-06 07:27 pm (UTC)There is no possible way in the world that this wouldn't be awesome.
Having now read several other reviews, I am amused to discover I'm actually in a Mohinder-defending frame of mind, because all the "how can he not see Bennet is right and Bob is The Evil" seems to be missing out that Mohinder isn't a fangirl, and Bennet's recent behaviour wasn't very trust inducing. Mohinder signed on to a "destroy the Company" gig, not a "save the life of Noah Bennet" gig, then hearing Bennet tell him the same thing Bob at first did - infecting Monica, albeit Bob said for experimental purposes and Bennet said to maintain cover, it comes to the same thing - then hearing Bennet basically tell him he's expendable and hear how other "friends" of Noah B. fared recently - I know my spy novels. This would be difficult for a pro to take without doubts, and Mohinder, as Matt pointed out, isn't a trained agent.
Heh. As I said, I don't think it's a good idea, and it will come back to haunt him, but it makes sense in his situation. And I think Mohinder is unaccustomed enough to these sort of situations that he wouldn't think about the further consequences, or why Bob could be so generously helping them.
I don't think Nathan would be thrilled with either Mohinder or Bob, no.
While I would love a situation where Nathan has some choice words with both gentlemen, I doubt Bob would make the mistake of letting him know this after hearing his opinion on the company losing Peter.
Again I point to Noah's detailed scenario when talking to Claire, and the fact Adam/Kensei really has it in for them now.
And with good reason.
Lastly, and unrelated: our observation that Matt like last seasons clicks better with his detection partner than with his domestic partner still stands.*g*
Yes. Not one private word for Mo!