Torchwood pre-finale thoughts
Apr. 4th, 2008 12:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakSome thoughts before tonight's season finale of Torchwood, unspoiled and speculative only. I'll probably write a post on the second season as a whole once I've watched the finale, but RL is being busy, so I'm not sure I'll find the time, which is why a bit of the season-overlooking will flow into this post.
Okay, regarding the "who lives, who dies, if any" question that comes with season finales. One of the pleasant surprises of this season was that I've come to care for the entire ensemble, instead of just finding one character (Owen) interesting and not caring one way or the other (either like or dislike) about the rest, which was the case for me in season 1. So if one or several should die, I know I'll grieve for whoever it is, but I'll keep watching, because by know, I actually like the show entire.
Odds: We can discount Jack (immortal, and main character) and Gwen (closest thing to leading lady; unless Eve Myles wants out, I don't think Chibnall, RTD & Co. will kill her off or let her decide to leave Torchwood, for that matter).
My money is on Rhys' survival as well, because they already played the "Rhys is dead, see Gwen lose it" card in the season 1 finale.
Owen - I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that after the finale, he'll either a) be permanently dead or b) have his zombie status changed in some fashion. What augurs for his survival is that Burn Gorman is the best actor in this ensemble, and given that the scriptwriters keep throwing meaty character arcs at him for two seasons in a row now, they know it. On the other hand, he's definitely not lacking work possibilities elsewhere, so - who knows?
Tosh: poor Tosh. The writing for her is much better this season than last (which, alas, isn't saying much, but I don't want to damm with faint praise - this season gave me a genuine sense of what Tosh is like as a person), and she finally got a story that didn't have to do anything with her love life, but I still reckon her chances of leaving the show either by tragic death or by deciding that since her indentured five years are up, she wants to enjoy freedom and figure out life beyond secret organisations for a while (with an option for Naoko Mori to return in later seasons) are pretty high, simply because I get the sense the writers still do not really know what to do with her beyond her relationship with Owen. So realistically speaking, I'd say that if someone gets killed off (or leaves in a non-lethal way), Tosh is a very likely candidate.
Ianto: hmmm. On the one hand, fannish darling, indeed favourite character for most of fandom, which is as good a survival guarantee as any. On the other, arguably the death that would hurt Jack the most, and I can't help but noticing that while everyone else got a backstory that isn't primarily about their relationship with Jack in Fragments, Ianto did not, which fits with the "you gave me new meaning" thing from Adam. And Ianto definitely won't leave via quitting, which is at least a possibility for Tosh. Ianto is the character other than Gwen who basically has what he wants from life right now - a happy steady relationship with Jack, work he finds fulfilling, his past loss of Lisa dealt with - and no unfulfilled hopes, agendas or desires we know about. That by the rules of TV never augurs well. Of course, if Ianto does get killed off, I'm going to hide from the internet (well, the Torchwood portion of same) because I can hear the outbreaks of "homophobia! it's all a conspiracy to get Jack together with Gwen!" already.
(For the record, even if Ianto gets killed in the season finale, I don't think Jack and Gwen will hook up in season 3. For starters, one of Jack's defining characteristics is the constant flirting and omnisexual thing, and if he were to have a relationship with Gwen similar to the one he has with Ianto now, complete with jokes, we'd get such gems like "Gwen looks good in a dress" or "pizza, Gwen, saving the world", which with a girlfriend would sound less Jack being Jack and more Jack being a male chauvinist pig. Secondly, this season had Gwen choosing Rhys over Torchwood generally and Jack specifically every time it counted, the writers give every sign of being fond of writing scenes for Eve Myles and Kai Williams together, and I very much doubt all of this will lead to a Gwen/Rhys split-up any time soon. See above for why I don't believe Rhys will die, either.)
Now, regarding the finale villain. Frankly, I rolled my eyes when Captain John came back for the final scene in Fragments, but something that might make his return into something for more interesting than a pale replay of the Doctor/Master relationship in DW has occured to me since then. Namely: much like Bilis was the frontman for Abaddon, John could be the frontman for the true villain, who is... none other than Jack's lost brother, Gray himself. Now THAT would truly be gutwrenching for Jack, and since the second season repeatedly touched on Owen being a replacement little brother figure for him, it could tie in Owen's mid-season arc as well. Also, it would mean I don't have to take John more seriously than I do.
(My John problem in a nutshell: they should never have gone for JM using the Spike accent and swagger, made his first scene with Jack a blatant rip-off from the Buffy/Spike scene in Smashed and then thrown in earth admiration/resentment directly out of the Doctor/Master book for good measure. It makes the character look incredibly derivative, a dull checklist of "stuff fans liked in..." instead of the colourful rogue they wanted to sell. Add to this that I found the chemistry between JM and JB practically non existant and hence their scenes incredibly forced, and, well. Yeah. Will pass. But if John's just a tool, then the character one dimensionality and derivativeness don't matter anymore.)
Gray as Jack's true arch nemesis could either play out as Gray as Connor - since this show likes their Jossverse parallels - which would probably end with Gray's defeat and either literal death or metaphorical death (good old retcon and a new life striking again) - or it could play out as Gray as an ongoing villain in the old Who tradition, who at the end takes off to plague Jack and the Cardiff gang another day.
Also possible: John is a frontman, but the true villain isn't Gray but another third party (maybe those invaders from Sleeper? Or the "monsters" of Jack's memories). Which would work but not be as angst inducing, and if Gray is just an innocent victim held hostage by either John or Third Party, he's as good as dead already. (The show doesn't need nice literal relations of Jack's; not much possibility for inner conflict.)
Lastly: given that they can't repeat the noise of the TARDIS as a dramatic cliffhanger conclusion and tie-in to DW, and given that Jack is announced as a guest star in season 4/30 but after all that emphasis on loving his team can't just ditch them without explanation as was possible at the end of s1, I'm going with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
honorh's guess: the season will end with a phonecall from Martha, asking Jack for his help.
Okay, regarding the "who lives, who dies, if any" question that comes with season finales. One of the pleasant surprises of this season was that I've come to care for the entire ensemble, instead of just finding one character (Owen) interesting and not caring one way or the other (either like or dislike) about the rest, which was the case for me in season 1. So if one or several should die, I know I'll grieve for whoever it is, but I'll keep watching, because by know, I actually like the show entire.
Odds: We can discount Jack (immortal, and main character) and Gwen (closest thing to leading lady; unless Eve Myles wants out, I don't think Chibnall, RTD & Co. will kill her off or let her decide to leave Torchwood, for that matter).
My money is on Rhys' survival as well, because they already played the "Rhys is dead, see Gwen lose it" card in the season 1 finale.
Owen - I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that after the finale, he'll either a) be permanently dead or b) have his zombie status changed in some fashion. What augurs for his survival is that Burn Gorman is the best actor in this ensemble, and given that the scriptwriters keep throwing meaty character arcs at him for two seasons in a row now, they know it. On the other hand, he's definitely not lacking work possibilities elsewhere, so - who knows?
Tosh: poor Tosh. The writing for her is much better this season than last (which, alas, isn't saying much, but I don't want to damm with faint praise - this season gave me a genuine sense of what Tosh is like as a person), and she finally got a story that didn't have to do anything with her love life, but I still reckon her chances of leaving the show either by tragic death or by deciding that since her indentured five years are up, she wants to enjoy freedom and figure out life beyond secret organisations for a while (with an option for Naoko Mori to return in later seasons) are pretty high, simply because I get the sense the writers still do not really know what to do with her beyond her relationship with Owen. So realistically speaking, I'd say that if someone gets killed off (or leaves in a non-lethal way), Tosh is a very likely candidate.
Ianto: hmmm. On the one hand, fannish darling, indeed favourite character for most of fandom, which is as good a survival guarantee as any. On the other, arguably the death that would hurt Jack the most, and I can't help but noticing that while everyone else got a backstory that isn't primarily about their relationship with Jack in Fragments, Ianto did not, which fits with the "you gave me new meaning" thing from Adam. And Ianto definitely won't leave via quitting, which is at least a possibility for Tosh. Ianto is the character other than Gwen who basically has what he wants from life right now - a happy steady relationship with Jack, work he finds fulfilling, his past loss of Lisa dealt with - and no unfulfilled hopes, agendas or desires we know about. That by the rules of TV never augurs well. Of course, if Ianto does get killed off, I'm going to hide from the internet (well, the Torchwood portion of same) because I can hear the outbreaks of "homophobia! it's all a conspiracy to get Jack together with Gwen!" already.
(For the record, even if Ianto gets killed in the season finale, I don't think Jack and Gwen will hook up in season 3. For starters, one of Jack's defining characteristics is the constant flirting and omnisexual thing, and if he were to have a relationship with Gwen similar to the one he has with Ianto now, complete with jokes, we'd get such gems like "Gwen looks good in a dress" or "pizza, Gwen, saving the world", which with a girlfriend would sound less Jack being Jack and more Jack being a male chauvinist pig. Secondly, this season had Gwen choosing Rhys over Torchwood generally and Jack specifically every time it counted, the writers give every sign of being fond of writing scenes for Eve Myles and Kai Williams together, and I very much doubt all of this will lead to a Gwen/Rhys split-up any time soon. See above for why I don't believe Rhys will die, either.)
Now, regarding the finale villain. Frankly, I rolled my eyes when Captain John came back for the final scene in Fragments, but something that might make his return into something for more interesting than a pale replay of the Doctor/Master relationship in DW has occured to me since then. Namely: much like Bilis was the frontman for Abaddon, John could be the frontman for the true villain, who is... none other than Jack's lost brother, Gray himself. Now THAT would truly be gutwrenching for Jack, and since the second season repeatedly touched on Owen being a replacement little brother figure for him, it could tie in Owen's mid-season arc as well. Also, it would mean I don't have to take John more seriously than I do.
(My John problem in a nutshell: they should never have gone for JM using the Spike accent and swagger, made his first scene with Jack a blatant rip-off from the Buffy/Spike scene in Smashed and then thrown in earth admiration/resentment directly out of the Doctor/Master book for good measure. It makes the character look incredibly derivative, a dull checklist of "stuff fans liked in..." instead of the colourful rogue they wanted to sell. Add to this that I found the chemistry between JM and JB practically non existant and hence their scenes incredibly forced, and, well. Yeah. Will pass. But if John's just a tool, then the character one dimensionality and derivativeness don't matter anymore.)
Gray as Jack's true arch nemesis could either play out as Gray as Connor - since this show likes their Jossverse parallels - which would probably end with Gray's defeat and either literal death or metaphorical death (good old retcon and a new life striking again) - or it could play out as Gray as an ongoing villain in the old Who tradition, who at the end takes off to plague Jack and the Cardiff gang another day.
Also possible: John is a frontman, but the true villain isn't Gray but another third party (maybe those invaders from Sleeper? Or the "monsters" of Jack's memories). Which would work but not be as angst inducing, and if Gray is just an innocent victim held hostage by either John or Third Party, he's as good as dead already. (The show doesn't need nice literal relations of Jack's; not much possibility for inner conflict.)
Lastly: given that they can't repeat the noise of the TARDIS as a dramatic cliffhanger conclusion and tie-in to DW, and given that Jack is announced as a guest star in season 4/30 but after all that emphasis on loving his team can't just ditch them without explanation as was possible at the end of s1, I'm going with
honorh's guess: the season will end with a phonecall from Martha, asking Jack for his help.
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no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 10:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 10:35 am (UTC)You analysis of who may die makes a lot of sense as well. Ianto or Tosh are good choice, because if RTD is following the Joss model, the person who will die won't be an unkillable cast member (Xander, Willow, Buffy, Jack, Gwen) but it will be someone the fans love. They're both likable, vulnerable characters like Tara and Fred.
As for Rhys and Gwen, they won't stay together, but it won't be because Rhys dies. I bet that at some point, he'll be horrifically traumatized by Torchwood, either physically or mentally, and to protect him, Gwen will Retcon him and leave him. This'll probably happen Series 3.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 10:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 10:52 am (UTC)...that I could see happening, provided the trauma is indeed horrific beyond repair by other means, because Gwen refusing to retcon Rhys was such an important turning point in s2.
His natural American accent is so painfully Californian that it hurts my ears.
As a German who spent some months in California I have to ask: what's wrong with a Californian accent?
(No, seriously, I'm neutral on American accents. I mean, I can hear the difference between California, the deep South or New York, but none of these sounds better or worse to me.)
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 11:41 am (UTC)Lot of stereotyping there, but stereotypes work in television.
I'm not a fan of his American accent because I'm used to his mid-Atlantic accents from Buffy, where certain words are English and certain ones... well, aren't. If I hear him talking in an American accent, then it's not far enough away from the Spike voice to be completely different, yet I keep thinking he's pronouncing things 'wrong' when he hits what should be an 'English' word with an American accent.
Yes, I'm aware the above paragraph is insane. I'm sorry.
PJW
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 02:08 pm (UTC)Poor Tosh. Better or worse this season, every other cast member got a specific role to play within the show. They each had something, except Tosh. Unless you count her Torchwood's Black Widow status. I sort gnash my teeth that if she were to die or leave the show, it'd be less about dramatic moments or feasible character arcs, but more about the writers needing to give themselves an out from having to write Tosh.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 03:30 pm (UTC)That said... James Marsters sounds REALLY fake next to the Torchwood cast. It's a tough call. I never saw Andromeda, so I'll go with your theory.
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Date: 2008-04-04 03:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 03:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 04:04 pm (UTC)Well, I don't think such outbreaks would be unjustified. I've been troubled all season by the way the same-sex relationships have been marginalized on the show, and by the way the Gwen/Jack/Ianto triangle has been handled (Jack may "do" Ianto, but he LOVES Gwen). It's a pattern that looks a lot like homophobia to me, and if Ianto is killed, thus eliminating this season's only same-sex relationship, I will be very, very annoyed.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 04:13 pm (UTC)I'm expecting they'll do something to reverse his condition, make him alive and human again - or at least able to heal himself again. Or they'll kill him off for good, but that would be sad. He's never been my favorite character, but he's grown on me this season. And at the risk of sounding horribly sexist, if he dies, then that leaves Jack with all girls on his team. Well, and Ianto. ;) (I love Ianto, I swear! I just couldn't resist the joke.) And if Martha replaced him as their doctor, there's another girl. Girls can kick ass of course, but I think the writers would want a better balance of genders in the team.
If I had to guess who they would kill, I think my pick would be Rhys, as much as I'd like him to stay. In terms of major characters, he's probably the least "necessary" to Torchwood itself. He's not a team member, he's just Gwen's husband, and you know it's only a matter of time before they would have to mess with that relationship one way or another.
Or they'll kill Ianto (in which case I fear the fandom fallout), because, of all the team, he's the only one who doesn't fill some specific niche. He's not the doctor or the genius techie, or the trained cop, or the immortal leader. He was, up until recently, the guy that made them all coffee and guarded the secret lair. Awful as it sounds, he's probably the most dispensable of them.
I don't now, I'm rambling now, I think. I don't even know if I'm making any sense at this point. :) I'm not as good at the speculating as you are! Plus, I'm almost always way off when it comes to the "who will they kill?" game, no matter what show it is.
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Date: 2008-04-04 04:39 pm (UTC)Other than that, I'm pretty okay with whatever happens, since I think you're also right in saying they won't mess with Gwen or Rhys.
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Date: 2008-04-04 05:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 06:17 pm (UTC)Tosh: which would make her the Harry Kim of Torchwood. Do Whovians still look down on Trekkers?
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Date: 2008-04-04 06:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 06:41 pm (UTC)Me too. I really don't think I'd have kept watching the entire first season if it hadn't been a DW spin-off and, at that point, I couldn't exclude something happening on TW might have had relevance on the third season of New Who. While I appreciated individual episodes, and thought Owen was interesting and the only one to have something of a character arc, I was left with very mixed feelings, but now? I really like the show in its own right, I like all the characters, and despite some nitpicks, I can say I really enjoyed the season. I'm really looking forward to the finale.
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Date: 2008-04-04 06:41 pm (UTC)Yeah, I was shocked by how fake Marsters sounded next to Burn Gorman, whi is an *actual* Cockney. I had always *liked" Marster's English accent. But you know who else has kind of a bad American accent?
John Barrowman.
Admittedly, it's a subtle badness. I think you have to be an American to hear how *flat* he sounds. His accent seems like a weirdly nasal, exaggerated form of my own North Midwest accent. Barrowman's voice is do stereotypically middle American, that he sounds fake.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 06:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 07:05 pm (UTC)Oh, and yes. John Barrowman's accent throws me off every time. I put it down to that thing where if you spend a month in London when you get back to the states everyone laughs at how you 'picked up the accent'. Except Barrowman has a permanent case.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 07:23 pm (UTC)In "To the Last Man" Jack essentially said that Ianto was one of the people he loved who made the 21st century home, just before the big kiss. Jack also said that Ianto was what he came back for in Kis Kiss, Bang Bang." In one ep, Tosh said that all of them were "single and lonely " Jack and Ianto gave each other significant glances as if to say "Speak for yourself."
Now, maybe you want a full-on declaration of love from your favorite couple, but saying that this season has been following a homophobic pattern or that killing Ianto would be homophobic, is not borne out by the evidence.
We've seen Jack loving men (The Doctor, Jack Harkness, Ianto) and women (Estelle, his unnamed wife, and Gwen). He's mentioned male sex partners repeatedly (man with no mouth, famous artists, twin acrobats), and he flirts with practically every man and woman he meets. He's canonically bisexual, and the writers are under no obligation to pair him with man to make some kind of political point.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 07:27 pm (UTC)Yeah, that would be the ugly cherry on top, given the show's history of marginalizing or derogating same-sex relationships/partners. I'm pretty uninvested in Ianto/Jack, but right through "Something Borrowed" Jack's had a big, pointedly-weighted star-crossed love for Gwen, and the show can only improve minus the mutual pining. And as far as I can tell, it has gotten better in that respect at least - I only hope there's no regression in the finale. That includes not killing Ianto. (Same goes for Tosh - although that's because it's both asinine and lazy to write off the only major character of color due to an inability to characterize an East Asian woman in an imaginative way.) Shows with a male lead and a female lead should stop doing that tired UST / romantic pairing thing. There are other ways for your leading characters to relate to each other!
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Date: 2008-04-04 07:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-04 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-05 12:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-05 12:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-05 12:49 am (UTC)PJW
no subject
Date: 2008-04-05 04:02 am (UTC)PJW
Long comment, part I
Date: 2008-04-05 02:35 pm (UTC)Thus far all the female same-sex encounters/relationships we've seen fit the Evil/Dead Lesbian cliché pretty well. In the two from previous episodes, the female body is possessed by a sexually aggressive killer alien (Carys, Mary), who Jack then kills. The predatory way in which that sexuality is exercised is directly tied to the alien's characterization as Evil. I don't think it matters that much that "Carys" ends up rejecting Gwen in favor of male victims; the female body inhabited by the alien goes on a man-killing rampage across the city. While I don't think the ruthless lesbian imperialists in "Fragments" are supposed to be out-and-out evil, they certainly fit the Lesbians Are Scary mold. Scary, sadistic, fascist, anonymous-on-screen Victorian bi-lesbians! I have to wonder what Torchwood's problem with female same-sex relationships is. My low standards are talking, but I wish we'd at least see Tosh with a non-homicidal, non-alien girlfriend who survives long enough to break up with her normally (because apparently all Tosh's relationships are doomed). Or as selenak suggests, an already established character like DCI Kathy Swanson could turn out to be lesbian and living in a good relationship with someone. Or guest stars like the nice lesbian couple in "Gridlock" on Doctor Who. But as of the penultimate S2 episode, we didn't get any of that.
In short, the problem isn't so much overall numbers - it's not hard to believe there are fewer same-sex relationships/encounters in the general population than there are heterosexual relationships/encounters, and it's fine if that's reflected in the show. As selenak notes, the issue is that of favorable presentation, and Torchwood is still at a zero there for f/f.
As for m/m, the ratio of favorable vs. unfavorable representations is somewhat better:
Ianto/Jack got more positive screentime in S2 and I've no doubt Jack cares about Ianto, even if the big (eye-rolling) angsty pining has been with Gwen in episodes through "Something Borrowed." Unspoiled for the finale - that's positive overall, although sometimes sidelined by dramatic Gwen & Jack UST.
Jack has tender, angsty love-at-first-sight with the real Captain Jack - albeit foregrounded in tragedy from the beginning (an especially common trope for homosexual relationships in the media until quite recently), since Jack knows the real Jack will die the following day, and Jack and Tosh's talk upon returning to the present seems to confirm that. Therefore: positive, yet doomed from the start.
Jack loves the Doctor devotedly (and possibly unhealthily - as selenak noted, in "Day One" Jack is responsible to some degree for the deaths "Carys" causes after escape from the Hub, because he won't let the Doctor's hand come to harm) for probably more than a century and a half. When Jack finally meets the Doctor again, Ten's either unable or unwilling to return his love. Ten also tells Jack that Jack's resurrection on Satellite Five made him "unnatural" and just "not right," then volunteers Jack for radiation death because that "unnatural" immortality is exactly what makes Jack qualified for the job. Of course, it's for the greater good and only temporary, but a pretty disingenuous move on Ten's part! Subsequently, Jack spends a year getting tortured and dying countless times, which hopefully makes him reevaluate his more-or-less unrequited love, although never his loyalty to the Doctor. At any rate, in the end Ten (pseudo?-)casually invites him back to the TARDIS, but Jack declines. Which is, I hope, the end of that unrequited same-sex pining. Verdict pre- S2 finale: unrequited, epic same-sex love; Jack closes the book on it in a mature way.
Then it's murderous, psychotic, Evil Stalker Ex-Boyfriend John Hart, who vows to "tear [Jack's] world apart" and destroy everyone Jack cares for, 'cause Jack won't "make time" for him. I haven't watched the finale yet, so I can't comment on whether John remains evil and psycho to the very end and/or dies. I look forward to seeing whether the show does anything interesting with the trope or whether it's one-dimensional Crazy Evil Stalker all the way.
Re: Long comment, part I
Date: 2008-04-05 02:36 pm (UTC)Considering the show's negative history of favorable f/f on-screen representation and its very mixed history of favorable, non-doomed m/m on-screen representation (pre- S2 finale, I think only Ianto/Jack qualifies for that category): I'm not even a Ianto/Jack fan, and I can only hope the season finale didn't kill Ianto. Overall television representation for same-sex encounters/relationships is obviously far less common than that for heterosexual encounters/relationships; whether or not one thinks that's appropriate, each time a show chooses to portray same-sex relationships is weighted far more heavily because of it. So too are the characteristics of those representations, and how often those types occur. The visibility of same-sex relationships is a good start for Torchwood; now the show needs more that aren't characterized by doom or psychosis.
And now I have been spoiled for "Exit Wounds"!
Date: 2008-04-05 03:02 pm (UTC)[redacted spoilers re: Tosh] - all I can say is [redacted obscenity] you, Torchwood!
complete detour from original subject, but...
Date: 2008-04-05 03:02 pm (UTC)Ten also tells Jack that Jack's resurrection on Satellite Five made him "unnatural" and just "not right," then volunteers Jack for radiation death because that "unnatural" immortality is exactly what makes Jack qualified for the job.
Err, no. This idea that Jack goes to the radiation chamber as a kind of sacrificial lamb because hypocritical Ten demands it is definitely not what I got from the episode. Yana says no one can survive in the radiation chamber and that means the people on the planet are doomed, Ten says "Well...", quick exchange of glances between him and Jack who looks as if he just had the same idea, and then cut to them racing towards the chamber, short conversation before Jack goes in etc. Looks to me as if Jack does this to save the people on the planet headed for Utopia (they think), not out of unrequited pining for the Doctor or because the Doctor asks. (With Out of the Rain in mind which implies that Jack killed himself a lot of times as a circus number, saving the rest of humanity seems like a far more sensible cause, so my heart really isn't breaking for Jack there.)
Which, btw, has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and I agree that Jack probably stopped pining post-Utopia. He had built the Doctor into the solution to all his problems in his head during the past century, and the Doctor just wasn't. Actually I think their relationship became deeper and more honest during Utopia because Jack now could see the Doctor as flawed, open to prejudice, and the Doctor admitted he had been wrong to abandon Jack, whereas before you had a hero-worship situation on Jack's part. My own theory is that even if Jack hadn't already decided to go back to his team during the year that wasnt - which I think he has - the Master's death scene would have clinched it, because, simply put, there was all the unconditional love on the Doctor's part - and it was directed at the man who had just been responsible for putting Earth in general and Jack in particular through hell for a year. (Oh, and the Doctor, too. Being kept like an animal in a dog's house or a cage, tortured by the whole aging up and down etc. qualifies as such.) Anyway, I don't think Jack could have gone with the Doctor immediately after that, nor should he. But I also think they parted as friends, and... but that would be spoilery.
No comment on John and the presentation of the Jack/John relationship because I've watched the finale and so am unfairly in an advantage.
Re: complete detour from original subject, but...
Date: 2008-04-05 03:27 pm (UTC)I don't think Jack was a sacrificial lamb or that Ten coerced him - sure, Jack's willing to go to the (temporary) death in order to save people, and also for a lot less than that, given the (stupid) canon we have in "From Out of the Rain." It's in character. I just found it hilarious that Ten had the idea too when he had been repulsed by Jack's immortality. However, I believe you on the exchange of glances.
Actually I think their relationship became deeper and more honest during Utopia because Jack now could see the Doctor as flawed, open to prejudice, and the Doctor admitted he had been wrong to abandon Jack, whereas before you had a hero-worship situation on Jack's part.
I need to rewatch the episode! I didn't remember the Doctor admitting he had been wrong to abandon Jack.
My own theory is that even if Jack hadn't already decided to go back to his team during the year that wasnt - which I think he has - the Master's death scene would have clinched it, because, simply put, there was all the unconditional love on the Doctor's part - and it was directed at the man who had just been responsible for putting Earth in general and Jack in particular through hell for a year. (Oh, and the Doctor, too. Being kept like an animal in a dog's house or a cage, tortured by the whole aging up and down etc. qualifies as such.)
I agree on Jack's reaction to the Doctor's unconditional love for a genocidal dictator who'd just put both Jack and the Doctor himself through hell for a year. As for their parting: Jack's over the unrequited pining, which as you say is a good thing, and the Doctor unbends enough to ask him back aboard. I think they're not so much friends there as they are at the tentative beginning of a new friendship - a lot of emotional tension has dispersed, and should Jack come back to the TARDIS in DW S4, they can potentially start a friendship that's different from what they had in DW S1.
Re: complete detour from original subject, but...
Date: 2008-04-05 04:03 pm (UTC)The Doctor admitting he was wrong: when Jack says "Shame on you", in reply to the Doctor's earlier explanation re: it being hard even to look at him (and that being the true cause for the running away), and saying it light hearted enough the Doctor can take it as a joke if he wants to, the Doctor replies, in a serious tone, and not smiling at all: "Yeah."
This is followed up by the "do you want to die?" question, and again, Jack turns it into a joke at first, and then the Doctor repeats it, making it clear he's serious. Which I thought was a very important point at their relationship, and it had to come after the admission the Doctor is aware that his running away reaction, no matter how instinctive, was something to be ashamed of, i.e. wrong. He genuinenly wants to know, and I think he's offering Jack a choice there, which Jack didn't have about his own state of being since Rose-plus-TARDIS resurrected him. Also, for people who watched TW (as opposed to only DW watchers), Jack's reply really could have been "yes" because he definitely is shown as envying people who can die repeatedly in the first season. (There is also the irony now that in the second season, Jack does to Owen what was done to him, but in a darker way, deliberately, and with darker results.)
I think they're not so much friends there as they are at the tentative beginning of a new friendship - a lot of emotional tension has dispersed, and should Jack come back to the TARDIS in DW S4, they can potentially start a friendship that's different from what they had in DW S1.
Agreed. Also, given Jack's reaction to (spoiler) in the finale, down to the literal quote, there are new parallels between them.
Re: complete detour from original subject, but...
Date: 2008-04-05 04:22 pm (UTC)Yeah, at that point I didn't have so much of a reaction of "serves you right!" as horror - which incidentally is one reason why I dislike Ten. As someone else says over here (http://harriet-spy.livejournal.com/543448.html?thread=2569944#t2569944), "To be willing to cuddle and forgive the Master, who tortured and killed millions and was ready to rip the universe apart to feed his megalomania, while condemning the Family of Blood to eternal torment because they made him feel kind of bad, is contemptible. If you want to be Jesus, you need to commit. Otherwise, you're just using mercy as another form of self-indulgence." Good point about how the franchise didn't invent the Time Lord taboo re: immortality.
This is followed up by the "do you want to die?" question, and again, Jack turns it into a joke at first, and then the Doctor repeats it, making it clear he's serious. Which I thought was a very important point at their relationship, and it had to come after the admission the Doctor is aware that his running away reaction, no matter how instinctive, was something to be ashamed of, i.e. wrong. He genuinenly wants to know, and I think he's offering Jack a choice there, which Jack didn't have about his own state of being since Rose-plus-TARDIS resurrected him.
Wait, what choice is the Doctor offering? Well, I suppose that given [finale spoiler], I guess any number of conditions could keep Jack dead indefinitely, as long as the situation is maintained. But that isn't really unique to the Doctor.
I. The Master
Date: 2008-04-05 05:06 pm (UTC)II. The Family, and Jack.
Date: 2008-04-05 05:06 pm (UTC)Wait, what choice is the Doctor offering?
If Jack had said "Yes, I want to die", I think the Doctor would have figured out a method, but I admit this is my personal interpretation, simply based on his tone of voice and of course on the fact we actually do see Jack die for good, as the Face of Boe in Gridlock, which means that we, though not the Doctor at the point of Utopia, now there is a way this can happen. At any rate, I saw it as a genuine question, not a rethorical one, and he usually doesn't ask if he's not able to come up with a solution. Or at least tries to.
Re: I. The Master
Date: 2008-04-05 05:31 pm (UTC)I don't think he ever claimed to be Jesus, but the show has gone to eye-rolling lengths/symbolism to frame Ten as such.
Of course the Master is guilty of far, far (add infinite number squared) worse things than the Family of Blood. But leaving aside the rather crucial fact that the FoB incident comes before, not after LotTL (and I don't think would have happened in reverse order) - the way he reacts to the Master can't be but coloured by their personal history. He never pretends it isn't. If the Master had been Random Evil Time Lord X, I think the Doctor still would have gone to great lengths to keep him alive because of the whole "last of species" thing, BUT he would neither have said "I forgive you" nor would have offered to keep X with him. He probably would either handed X over to UNIT for imprisonment or would have found some other ways to make sure X was both alive and completely incapacitated. But this is not X, this is the person he has known for most of his millennium of a life, since they were children, his former best friend turned enemy (even if one doesn't read the relationship as former lovers).
I agree with most of this, but I'm interested in why you think the FoB incident could not have happened after LotTL.
You can read it in so many ways, because it's not spelled out whether he means "I forgive you for what you did to me" or "I forgive you for what you did" (now that would have been presumptous indeed and a very different thing, but I don't think that's what he meant), or even "I forgive you for running in the Time War" (which is what the Master confessed to the Doctor when the Doctor confessed to how he ended said war, and arguably the one thing the Master seems to feel something like guilt for).
I interpreted it as possibly all of those options together, which made me queasy, to say the least (with option 2).
In any case, the "I forgive you" doesn't come with just leaving the Master to wreak havoc on the cosmos another day. He takes responsibility for the Master, and the "keeping him" definitely sounds like the Master would be a prisoner on the TARDIS. Not like the Doctor has been a prisoner on the Valiant, and in far more comfortable surroundings, but still a prisoner. (In the webisode Scream of the Shalka, which has Derek Jacobi as the Master and Richard E. Grant as a Doctor of unspecified regeneration, the Doctor has done actually gone through with that. The Master is unable to leave the TARDIS, but he's living with him. Said webisode, btw, was written by Paul Cornell several years before New Who started. This interpretation of the Doctor/Master relationship is by no means something unique to Ten or Simm!Master, or RTD.)
I agree that Ten was taking responsibility for keeping the Master prisoner, and I did know about "Scream of the Shalka" (which I found hilariously crack-y). I'm sure it's not unique to Ten, but Ten's reaction in light of the circumstances in which we find Ten and the Master (global genocide, slavery, torture, with every intention of expanding across the universe) make it incredibly off-putting for me.
Re: II. The Family, and Jack.
Date: 2008-04-05 05:46 pm (UTC)Subsequently condemning the FoB to eternal torment in order to avenge the deaths that Ten's choice effected in the first place does not actually constitute justice, and I'm not sure the narrative gets that.
If Jack had said "Yes, I want to die", I think the Doctor would have figured out a method, but I admit this is my personal interpretation, simply based on his tone of voice and of course on the fact we actually do see Jack die for good, as the Face of Boe in Gridlock, which means that we, though not the Doctor at the point of Utopia, now there is a way this can happen. At any rate, I saw it as a genuine question, not a rethorical one, and he usually doesn't ask if he's not able to come up with a solution. Or at least tries to.
Ah yes, the Face of Boe - heh. I'll admit I'm still confused as to how Jack can become the Face of Boe when they don't even look like the same species, but *handwave*. I do believe it was a genuine question in that the Doctor really wanted to know, although I don't necessarily buy that he had any idea as to how he'd make it happen for Jack.
Re: I. The Master
Date: 2008-04-05 06:01 pm (UTC)Ah, but I always thought that one has to differentiate between taking the Doylist approach and responding to authorial intention - in which case we can blame Rusty for competing with JMS (that's J. Michael Straczynski, if you're not a Babylon 5 fan) for the title of atheist scriptwriter most obsessed with using religious imagery (and with neither of them, it's just one character - with RTD the most blatant Jesus imagery was arguably with Jack in End of Days, complete with resurrection from the dead after three days and Gwen as Mary Magdelene, the first witness, etc.) - and the Watsonian approach of responding the characters as if they were real, in which case one can't blame the for anything but their own intentions and deeds, not for what they're meant to represent.
I agree with most of this, but I'm interested in why you think the FoB incident could not have happened after LotTL.
Because I think after LotTL he's completely drained of the capacity for vengefulness and of most other feelings beyond wanting to keep people alive. Not just because of the Master - also because of the entire year and everything that happened there, to humanity, to the people around him and to himself. Which isn't to say that he'll stay incapable of vengefulness, but I think it will take a while until he's able to get that angry again, and even then I am two thirds sure he'll be able to restrain himself - and one third sure that if he won't, Donna will. IMO it's significant that in Voyage of the Damned, we get the "of all the people to survive, he's not the one you'd have chosen, is he? But if you could choose who lives and who dies, that would make you a monster" comment from Mr. Copper, and the Doctor doesn't refute this. (Also, while he's frozen when Rixton - that's the appalling capitalist they're talking about - gleefully hugs him and earlier of course is angry about Max, whose death toll more than equals the Family of Blood's, he doesn't lash out at either of them but focuses on trying to save whom he can.)
I interpreted it as possibly all of those options together, which made me queasy, to say the least (with option 2).
I can understand that, but as I said, my own interpretation is that it's either 1 or 3, or both 1 and 3, but not 2.
(Sidenote: so what's your take on Jack using that same line to (spoiler)? Does Jack mean "what you did to me" or "what you did?" Again, big difference.)
Re: II. The Family, and Jack.
Date: 2008-04-05 06:16 pm (UTC)If we're talking authorial intention, I think you're selling Cornell short. I don't have a transcript for his commentary for Human Nature and The Family of Blood at hand but he mentions we're not supposed to think "well done" or "serves them right". I tried to find a corresponding quote in his lj and didn't quite succeed but this entry might be of interest to you:
http://paulcornell2.livejournal.com/10645.html
Re: I. The Master
Date: 2008-04-05 06:30 pm (UTC)Oh, I blame Rusty, all right. For that scene in "End of Days" too, which I dislike endlessly. I suppose I feel resentment that the narrative choices have caused this miasma of yuck to taint Ten for me, possibly irrevocably.
Which isn't to say that he'll stay incapable of vengefulness, but I think it will take a while until he's able to get that angry again, and even then I am two thirds sure he'll be able to restrain himself - and one third sure that if he won't, Donna will.
I hope so. Donna, if he needs a slap, don't hold back!
what's your take on Jack using that same line to (spoiler)? Does Jack mean "what you did to me" or "what you did?" Again, big difference.
I am split on whether Jack meant both options (in which case, ew, and I would so kick him in the head if he hadn't been dead-ish for two millennia), or just option one. Rewatch would probably help with that - when I've got enough disk space, I will!
Re: II. The Family, and Jack.
Date: 2008-04-05 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 03:54 am (UTC)