Lost thoughts and Who recs

[selenak]

12_12_12 has just finished watching the first season of Lost - check out her season 1 post and her Kate, Michael, Locke and Shannon meta, and please don't spoil her for later seasons - and her observation re: the forming of a community in s1 reminded me of something I want to explore if I ever get to write my big meta post on Lost: how the forming, falling apart and reforming of communities and smaller family/friendship units is an ongoing theme through all seasons so far, and how whether or not you're on board with the later seasons depends on whether or not you're prepared to accept the seasonal changes in characters and emphasis. In season 2, we get introduced to the Tailies as a contrasting community to the original cast - how they coped with the crash and the aftermath in circumstances that were even more dire is a harsh mirror. We also meet Desmond, and the various Dharma stations, which start to introduce the huge backstory of the island. You have season 1 relationships and certainties falling apart or being forcibly separated - Charlie and Claire (hell, Charlie and everyone at some point), Locke goes through his crisis of faith, Michael turns his back on the community and then turns traitor because he needs to rescue his son, Shannon dies, we find out that his lottery win isn't the only disturbing element of Hurley's backstory and that behind his cheerful facade there is fragile mental health, and so forth. There are also some new bonds formed and some reunions - Bernard and Rose among the later, obviously, Mr. Eko, Libby and Hurley, and at the end Desmond joining the Losties. Season 3's new community to get presented are the Others; not that we haven't met individual members before, most crucially Ben when he was undercover as Henry Gale and started to have his first intense scenes with Locke, but season 3 is when the Others really get explored, and Ben and Juliet get established as characters with as much importance and screentime as the old regulars. There are ongoing movements between the communities - early in the season Jack, Kate and Sawyer are with the Others by force, later in the season, as Juliet joins the beach community, Locke joins the Others voluntarily. Season 4 introduces the Freighter people, wo are important, but I'd say the most important new community to be explored actually is an old one - the Oceanic Six, that future/present which reintroduces us to five of our regulars in very different circumstances. And of course the big narrative of the season is how they got there. Where I'm getting at: I understand why some fans who were in love with the season 1 setting didn't stick with the show. But to me, most of the additions and the ongoing changes in areas and characters to be explored really worked and contributed to making the show, and while I was sad for most deaths, they keep my on my toes in viewing expectations when it comes to Lost.


Meanwhile, in DW fandom: the great thing is that we don't just get fannish hairpulling but also really interesting meta posts. I must say this one about River's fate and the ending has persuaded me from my original pov; also, I liked the point skywaterblue made about Miss Evangelista.

And then there was fanfiction:

Everybody knows that: short, beautiful and sensitive tag to the episode, with Donna and the Doctor dealing. (Or not.) I love these two together so very, very much.

Mistitled: The one way the Doctor could remember his name. It's calapine, so you know it's good: poetic and convincing.

Not inspired but the most recent episode but by the earlier two-parter dealing with the Sontarans and UNIT: The Doctor takes Donna for a trip to the 70s (or was it the 80s?) in order to show her why he used to work for UNIT. Home? gives us Donna and Ten interacting with the Brig, Jo, and finally an irascible Three and, of course, the Master (this is a law with the Pertwee era!), and since I am a fan of all parties named, this had me squeeing in delight.

Comments

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

Re: River's fate, the idea that she could live any adventure is nice, but unfortunately the only thing we see in the virtual world is domesticity, not adventure. That makes sense because the computer world is essentially the little girl's world and I suppose that's what she wanted. The ending seems to me to indicate that CAL got a real family, but I don't see any signs that River gets to do anything but be that real family. I kind of fall on the side that River's happy ending is not so much, given the nature of her real life. But then I also fall on the side that this is not so much River as River's data ghost, and those aren't the same things really, so perhaps River's data ghost would be happy playing mom forever since she's a part of that world.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

Donna and Ten interacting with the Brig, Jo, and finally an irascible Three and, of course, the Master

Oh, I love that thought.

So many possibilities, so impossible to film...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Though they could do it on audio if they recast the Third Doctor and the Master, as Nick Courtney has been doing a lot of audios in recent years and I'm sure Katy Manning would be game. Meanwhilel, we have fanfic like this one, which is great fun.

[wondygal.livejournal.com]

Strange, shaggydogstail's post is locked. But it was posted at professor_song, and I remember clicking on it before, hmm.

Good points about Lost. 12_12_12's posts have made me want to re-watch the whole show, when I have the time. And thanks for the recs! I like that point about Miss Evangelista too.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec! I also have another character meta post here (http://12-12-12.livejournal.com/40621.html), in case you missed that. And my Jin-Sun post is coming soon.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

how the forming, falling apart and reforming of communities and smaller family/friendship units is an ongoing theme through all seasons so far, and how whether or not you're on board with the later seasons depends on whether or not you're prepared to accept the seasonal changes in characters and emphasis.

I find this fascinating, since my focus is definitely on what will end up being the two middle seasons, and my reaction is almost an exact mirror to the one you describe in that while I can watch Season Two just fine, it also seems like a completely different show, and I think you can guess which two characters' scenes I enjoy the most. On the other hand, I really enjoy everything about Dharma and I'm really hoping they'll get back to that in Season 5, so there is still a connection there - I just don't seem to care that much about the original "survivors grow into a closely knitted group" premise.

Miss Evangelista: I read - and liked - skywaterblue's explanation before, but it didn't really put away my unease about the character. Moffat is pretty mercilessly mocking her when she's just an airhead, and her major helpful contribution to the story only comes after her intelligence has been artificially enhanced. The whole approach just sat wrong with me (and yes, I realize that, lamely, my complaint is basically that Moffat was being mean. It was not, however, that he was being unfeminist.).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Huh, that is indeed odd. It wasn't locked when I clicked on it earlier, either.

I don't have time for a complete rewatch, but I did rewatch some selected episodes, and noticed some additional things to the ones I remembered (such as Ben and Locke both being seventh-month children; I had remembered their mothers were both called Emily, but not that they were both early births).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Moffat is pretty mercilessly mocking her when she's just an airhead

I'm not sure; it looked to me like he was setting the audience up to react as Anita and Other Dave do and then promptly feel shamed during Donna's conversation with her, and feel even worse when she dies. (Same writer's trick, essentially, as Lance listing everything the audience has been complaining about re: Donna and then some in his mocking speech in Runaway Bride, which simultanously makes him look like a bastard on a personal as well as on a general level and makes the audience feel ashamed for sharing his prejudices.)

Re: season 2's Dharma stuff - well, they touched on it in s3 via Ben's flashback episode, and this season we got another reminder of the Purge, so I think there will definitely be episodes dealing with what exactly happened that led to the massacre, and also how Widmore is connected to Dharma, if he is, or who originally financed it, if he isn't.

I just don't seem to care that much about the original "survivors grow into a closely knitted group" premise.

I liked it for season 1, but I'm also glad they moved on to other subjects, as it is a limited kind of arc - once they've grown together, I mean. My s2 reviews are here, if you're interested:

2.01 - 2.12 (http://selenak.livejournal.com/257839.html)

2.13 - 2.23 (http://selenak.livejournal.com/258092.html)

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(Same writer's trick, essentially, as Lance listing everything the audience has been complaining about re: Donna and then some in his mocking speech in Runaway Bride, which simultanously makes him look like a bastard on a personal as well as on a general level and makes the audience feel ashamed for sharing his prejudices.)

Given that I also felt that Runaway Bride was making too much fun of Donna on it's own, it's probably that the device simply doesn't work that well for me. And the fact that Moffat had to make Miss Evangelista more intelligent before she could be useful seems rather telling (of course, without this, there never would have been the observation about how being "brilliant and unloved" makes you see everything clearly- as opposed to being stupid and unloved, which essentially just leads to confusion and death. [And in the end of course, she is brilliant and loved, so all is well.]).

Re: season 2's Dharma stuff - well, they touched on it in s3 via Ben's flashback episode, and this season we got another reminder of the Purge, so I think there will definitely be episodes dealing with what exactly happened that led to the massacre, and also how Widmore is connected to Dharma, if he is, or who originally financed it, if he isn't.

I am pretty sure Widmore is connected to Dharma somehow - for instance, when Keamy gets out the "Secondary Protocol" the folder has the Dharma logo on it, and it was given to him by Widmore at the very least.

There is also the fact that he believes the island belongs to him, and of course that he knew about the Black Rock - on the other hand, both of these could point to him actually having been that ominous previous leader of the Others Ben referred to. Since Widmore blames Ben for losing the island, there could have been some sort of uprising against him which forced him to leave (a lot of people have guessed via turning the wheel, which might explain why it took him so long to find it again, and why he couldn't find it on his own).

My favourite theory concerning Widmore, however, is that he was on the Black Rock, and lived on the island for a while. It would certainly explain his class issues if he were a 19th century man. And one could even connect the two theories. ;)

links: thanks! I'm pretty sure I read them before, but it's always nice to go back.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

for instance, when Keamy gets out the "Secondary Protocol" the folder has the Dharma logo on it

Oh, I hadn't noticed that! You are sharp-eyed. And yes, that settles a Dharma connection of some nature for Widmore.

Since there is no reason why Richard should be the only immortal running around, and there has yet to be pay-off for that old slave-trader in the middle of the jungle, I'm all for Widmore as a member of the Black Rock crew. Of course his need to aquire the log on the auction Desmond finds him at could simply be due to the need to find the island, but if he was on the Black Rock himself, well, double reason. AND of course it would explain that annoying plot device of why Ben can't simply kill him. If Ben already knows Widmore is immortal just as Richard, yes, he'd know it would be pointless.

(a lot of people have guessed via turning the wheel, which might explain why it took him so long to find it again, and why he couldn't find it on his own).

It would also explain why Ben needs the Oceanic Six to get back there himself...

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hadn't noticed that! You are sharp-eyed.

Well - the logo is pretty catchy. Besides, I was hoping one of our intrepid losties left on the boat would find and read the damn thing, but of course it had to be C4 instead. So much for the writers thinking like computer gamers.

As for Dharma and Widmore being connected, I just expected it had to be something like that, since I've been thinking that Widmore was capital E Evil pretty much since he turned up - he was simply trying a little too hard to be just a concerned father who didn't like his daughter's taste in men, especially because there were certain aspects in Desmond's backstory that made me wonder if the way he met Penny wasn't set up, too. (Which would be somewhat freaky if it had been Widmore himself, but would make sense if he knew that Desmond could find the island, for what reason ever.)

AND of course it would explain that annoying plot device of why Ben can't simply kill him. If Ben already knows Widmore is immortal just as Richard, yes, he'd know it would be pointless.

Yes, that's what I thought as well, although they will then of course have to find some other method to get rid of Widmore, because I don't think he will "win" in the long run.

It would also explain why Ben needs the Oceanic Six to get back there himself...

Yes - I could even suspect that he either killed Locke himself or had Sayid do it, to get the ball rolling. Of course, he could also use the O6 to get to Penny by telling them that they need Desmond to get back. Either way, he'll definitely have ulterior motives.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Which would be somewhat freaky if it had been Widmore himself, but would make sense if he knew that Desmond could find the island, for what reason ever.

Daniel Faraday told him?

Yes, that's what I thought as well, although they will then of course have to find some other method to get rid of Widmore, because I don't think he will "win" in the long run.

Well, there is that fate My Darling Arvin was condemmed to at the end of Alias...

Yes - I could even suspect that he either killed Locke himself or had Sayid do it, to get the ball rolling.

I do think Locke didn't commit suicide (just from the way Sayid said "apparantly", plus they showed us Locke almost ready to kill himself once (in the mass grave), and by tv rules that means he won't go there a second time) but was killed (if that "Jeremy Bentham" name wasn't a hint that it's not his corpse in the coffin but a wax replica) by someone else. But I don't think Ben would do it (now) unless he really has a guarantee that this will bring him back to the island and in control. The relationship has grown a little too complex for that. And here I can't resist a quote from a Ben community that cracked me up:

We've been trying to work out a way for Locke not to be dead permanently. I have faith in the island. I think the island ships Ben/Locke but it's just a fan of angst.

...aside from that, the ultimate strike against Widmore would have to come before the return to the island, no? But after killing Penny (not that I think he'll succeed in this, but speaking in terms of whatever Ben has planned), wouldn't he become persona non grata for the O6 again, not to mention a candidate for permanent death himself? (If not via Desmond, then via Sayid...) So I'm curious about the priorities of whatever he's up to.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Daniel Faraday told him?

Hmm. Headache-inducing, because in linear time Dan and Des obviously meet after Des and Penny met, but yes, plausible. Yay for time travel, I guess.
I think the ultimate problem with this is that it creates a loop - Desmond wouldn't have ended up on the island if it hadn't been for Penny, Widmore and the race, but if Widmore only put him in that situation because he knew from Dan Des would end up on the island, you don't really get an independent starting point. It's something they avoided with the coordinates for Dan's time machine, since he obviously would have come up with them eventually, even if his future self hadn't given them to past Des, and they said they wanted to avoid paradoxes.

Well, there is that fate My Darling Arvin was condemmed to at the end of Alias...

And now I am wondering if Widmore and Ben wouldn't be great candidates for Adam and Eve...

if that "Jeremy Bentham" name wasn't a hint that it's not his corpse in the coffin but a wax replica

Ohhh, auto icon! Very nice!

Bentham's death: of course, we also have the possibility that it was him Sun ratted out to Widmore, but I'd like to think that isn't the case. I could stand Sun betraying Penny and Desmond, or throwing stones in the way of Ben and the O6, but being responsible for Locke's death would be a bit much.

...aside from that, the ultimate strike against Widmore would have to come before the return to the island, no? But after killing Penny (not that I think he'll succeed in this, but speaking in terms of whatever Ben has planned), wouldn't he become persona non grata for the O6 again, not to mention a candidate for permanent death himself?

Yes, but the point is, they don't know what he's up to. The only one who really knows is Widmore, and I'd think narrative structure almost demands that he won't be able to warn Penny. That's what makes the whole situation so bad in the first place. (I am pretty sure, btw, that they won't have Ben kill her, just because at this moment it very much seems like they are heading that way, and it really isn't their MO to be that obvious. But given that they were lamenting about the actress not being available that often, they'd have to do something with the character to remove her in some way, and I'm wondering if they just let her disappear - not that this isn't something that happens all the time here - and just let us think Ben killed her for a while.)

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the hattip.