Bad maths or huge backstory hint?

[selenak]

Rewatching the s4 episode Cabin Fever, it struck me that Horace, in Locke's dream, says "I'm not making any sense, do I? That's because I've been dead for twelve years." Now, Locke didn't know Horace - though the audience does, having seen him in Ben's flashbacks before - so this particular dream is a genuine vision, whether from the island or other sources, and one assumes since the main purpose is to give Locke a hint where to find Jacob's cabin, there would be no false information about other stuff. So. Twelve years since the "purge". But! Alex is 16 years. And if I recall correctly, Rousseau says Alex was taken from her a week after her birth. Does this mean...

a) Alex was taken by the Hostiles before the Dharma Initiative was wiped out, and then handed over to Ben at age 4 once he became their leader?
b) Alex was taken by the Dharma Initiative for whatever reason? (Unlikely, since Ben wouldn't have left a toddler with gas mask instructions of how to protect herself while he went about solving his Daddy issues in a final way.)
c) Alex was taken by Ben personally and actually lived off-island (with Annie?) until after the Purge?
d) Dream!Horace was lying about the year of his death because he wanted to give Locke a hint about something else that happened twelve years ago? .

Of course, the most likely explanation is that Damon Lindelof is as bad as maths as Joss Whedon, but hey, that's boring.

Comments

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

I think it's bad math option a, with the caveat that I don't believe Ben turned leader directly after the purge. If we trust him to tell the truth for a second, the purge was ordered by the old leader, and Ben at that point didn't really seem to be in a position of giving orders. I'm guessing that changed relatively quickly, though.

There is of course also the possibility that Danielle wasn't telling the complete truth, either because it was important, or she got some things confused.

Somewhat related: do you think Ben moved the island only in space, or also in time, and if so, did he go forwards or backwards? If we go by the Orchid video, the island could technically have time travelled like the bunny, and that's why it disappeared.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I definitely think he moved it in time. The island was already slightly out of sync, time wise, as we learned during the fourth season - a day or a night? And now it's back years. (I'm thinking backwards because there has yet to be pay-off for the bones they found in season 1.) As I said in my Cabin Fever review, I've read Mists of Avalon, where the druids did just that - they didn't move their island geographically, they moved it time and thus removed it from the present. Which I guess MZB stole from Brigadoon, which might also be the current production team's inspiration.

I'm assuming Ben told the truth to Hurley in as much as he really wasn't the leader at that point, since it also fits with what he says to Locke after he shot him (i.e. at a point where he didn't have to lie to him, since presumably he thought Locke was in the process of dying) - he said "when it became clear which side was going to prevail, I made sure I didn't end up here with them" (i.e. the Dharma corpses in the grave). And if Charles Widmore was indeed on the island at a previous point and/or is immortal like Richard, chances are he was that leader, given his "you stole the island from me" remark. However, since Ben has a highly developed sense of self-preservation, I'm guessing he didn't wait long, because after the purge the Hostiles didn't need him anymore if he just stayed an also-ran. If, on the other hand, he proved leadership potential, Widmore (or whoever else was leader at that point) would try to get rid of the competition, so best get rid of Widmore first. Presumably Richard then behaved as he did with Locke later, i.e. helped behind the scenes.

Or Danielle, with everything that happened to her at the time and not being the most stable person, got the date wrong. I always thought "Alex" is more likely the nickname you'd address a child with, but not a baby...

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Mists of Avalon: I had forgotten about moving that island, but I'm rather relieved that TPTB's inspiration seems to be Brigadoon, and not Mists. It's one work of fiction I can rant about for hours. Ahem.

Going back in time: I had thought something similar, but not so much because of "Adam and Eve" but because the Dharma Initiative was mentioned quite often this season. There was also Ben's remark about the previous leader, we saw Horace Godspeed again and of course there were the fifteen year old crackers - if the latter was actually a meta textual hint it would put us back a few years before the purge.

We would have three years worth of island time as a parallel to the three years the mainlanders spend off the island and they could tell Rousseau's backstory without bothering Mira Furlan (she apparently wanted to be written out, that's why she was killed so unceremoniously). And the best thing - we would get both on- and off-island Ben. I'm not too sure Widmore would be the Other leader under those circumstances, although it would of course be highly ironic.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

My thirteen years old self was quite taken by Mists, but then I have been careful not to revisit as an adult, as opposed to other Arthurian versions like Parke Godwin's novels.

We would have three years worth of island time as a parallel to the three years the mainlanders spend off the island

I expect this is how they're going to handle it next season; with the mainlanders' timeline as the present day, and the island action as the flashbacks. That way, they also don't have to pretend the island people haven't aged a bit in those 90 something days the previous seasons took place in.

Mira Furlan: interesting. I don't suppose that soothes the ire of fandom? I wonder, if she hadn't, would Alex have died anyway? As Alex' death is essential to Ben's motivation for leaving the island in the first place. I'm not so sure he'd have given up the island (at least for the then forseeable future) if Alex had still been around, whether on or off the island.

Ben in both flashbacks and present day: would be excellent. I remember that on the audio commentary for "The Man Behind the Curtain", the writers said Horace Godspeed and his wife Olivia would turn out to be important, so there is definitely more Dharma story in the cards...

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

My thirteen years old self was quite taken by Mists, but then I have been careful not to revisit as an adult

I wasn't as wise, unfortunately. I already had problems at fourteen with her treatment of certain characters - which let me to sort of defiantly liking Guinevere - but the book really doesn't age well.

Mira Furlan: interesting. I don't suppose that soothes the ire of fandom? I wonder, if she hadn't, would Alex have died anyway?

As far as I've seen, it doesn't for most people. I'm sort of divided on it - on the one hand I think it's wasted character potential, but if actors want/have to leave, this show hardly has any way to write them out other than killing them - especially with a character like Rousseau who is intricately bound to the island. As for Alex, I am sure she would have died, anyway, since she was one of the few truly emotional connections for Ben - and if Annie has died, too, as seems to be mainstream fanon, it's kind of a pattern for the character to lose those connections. I do believe the Widmore involvement came to pass because the actress of Penny has other commitments than Lost and needed to be written out, but I could just as well be wrong about that (the "written out" part at least; she does have other jobs, among them a regular spot on an HBO show that sounds pretty horrifying).

Ben in both flashbacks and present day: would be excellent. I remember that on the audio commentary for "The Man Behind the Curtain", the writers said Horace Godspeed and his wife Olivia would turn out to be important, so there is definitely more Dharma story in the cards...

Awesome prospects. I am strangely attached to Dharma - they are amazingly creepy, yet they probably honestly want to change humanity for the better.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of divided on it - on the one hand I think it's wasted character potential, but if actors want/have to leave, this show hardly has any way to write them out other than killing them - especially with a character like Rousseau who is intricately bound to the island.

Yes. Penny is another matter, because she was never (so far) on the island and thus can be moved anywhere to cover absences. But Danielle explicitly said she wouldn't leave in the s3 finale, that the island was her home now. Short of using the coma option, I can't think of anything, either. Well, maybe whatever state Claire is in, if she isn't dead dead. Depends on whether they're actually going to do something with her.

Dharma: is so very 60s/early 70s, "namaste" and all. I bet they loved George Harrison and had all his solo stuff on CD. Which is probably why Ben went for Rachmaninov-Solos on the piano, in protest. Though I think he's way deeper imprinted by the DI than he wants to admit - that unfailing politeness of expression while he's manipulating, fighting and/or dooming people (other than Keamy). "May I have my weapon back, please?" and all.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Yes. Penny is another matter, because she was never (so far) on the island and thus can be moved anywhere to cover absences.

Yeah, they could do with her what Alias did with Amanda Foreman, who played Carrie - she technically was around all the time, but they only used her when she was available. I mean she was on the show around four times or so?

The thing about Penny is, I think they initially wanted to use her a lot more in both Season 4 and 5, at least judging from older interviews, but then Tell Me You Love Me got picked up and renewed, and that seems to have been problematic. (And the lamenting about her was nothing compared to the freak out they had over Alan Dale joining Spamalot during the writers's strike. It's the reason why his scenes with Michael Emerson and Yunjin Kim were actually filmed on location.)

Well, maybe whatever state Claire is in, if she isn't dead dead. Depends on whether they're actually going to do something with her.

Do you consider casting information to be too spoilerish?

Dharma: is so very 60s/early 70s, "namaste" and all. I bet they loved George Harrison and had all his solo stuff on CD.

Lol. I'm sure he was an obligatory soundtrack for every hatch.

Though I think he's way deeper imprinted by the DI than he wants to admit - that unfailing politeness of expression while he's manipulating, fighting and/or dooming people (other than Keamy). "May I have my weapon back, please?" and all.

Well, it's certainly more likely that he got it from Horace than either Roger or Richard, and he did seem to like him a lot. Not enough to not let him be killed, surely, but as far as Ben goes...
And he was pretty polite to Keamy until he started teasing him about Alex's death. At that point I guess even Bernard would have tried to stab him with a pen.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Carrie solution: excellent example, and yes. Marshall's phone calls and tales totally covered for her.

And the lamenting about her was nothing compared to the freak out they had over Alan Dale joining Spamalot during the writers's strike. It's the reason why his scenes with Michael Emerson and Yunjin Kim were actually filmed on location.

And here I thought it was because they wanted to get authentic English streets.*g* Was that also the reason why he was available for Torchwood?

Casting information: not about Emilie de Ravin. (I.e. I don't regard it too spoilerish to know whether she's off the show or still on.)

And he was pretty polite to Keamy until he started teasing him about Alex's death. At that point I guess even Bernard would have tried to stab him with a pen.

True enough. ("I'd like to present a counter proposal.") The only other example of Ben losing the politeness for a second is his emotional teenager "you're mine!" outburst, followed by the default "take your time" polite addendum.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

And here I thought it was because they wanted to get authentic English streets.*g* Was that also the reason why he was available for Torchwood?

That was my guess. It certainly was a clever way of doing work while Hollywood had nothing going on. (And the idea of him as King Arthur in Spamalot just cracks me up, because he usually plays these stuck up sinister rich guy types. It's really difficult to reconcile with that image.)


Casting information: not about Emilie de Ravin. (I.e. I don't regard it too spoilerish to know whether she's off the show or still on.)

Interestingly, it's seems to be both - rumour has it she won't be a regular next season, but definitely come back as one in season 6. So I'm guessing Claire's still important, but they didn't want to force EdR to spend another season standing around in the background.

The only other example of Ben losing the politeness for a second is his emotional teenager "you're mine!" outburst, followed by the default "take your time" polite addendum.

Well, it was a very trying and emotional moment for him. Not to mention that he apparently takes his romantic cues from the gothic tradition. (After all nothing says "I love You" like sending your beloved's sweetheart to their violent death...)

Ha!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Just found support for the theory that it wasn't bad maths (the purge = twelve years ago, Alex = sixteen years paradox) but that they indeed did it intentionally and it means Ben did not do the initial kidnapping. Unless he's lying to Locke in this deleted s 3 scene, which is always a possibility, of course:

Re: Ha!

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Ah, very interesting!

Now, it depends of course how much of what Danielle said was the truth, since given that Alex's birth was before the purge, I don't think it's likely that her research team was on the island without Dharma knowing about it. Maybe they were Dharma scientists sent out into unchartered territory and something went horribly wrong?

In addition, Ben's tale makes it look like the Others did a halfway reasonable thing by taking Alex away from Rousseau before she could harm her, but of course there is no guarantee that Ben isn't twisting reality at least a little. Especially since the Others/Hostiles obviously were never that opposed to taking Dharma/non-Other children, which of course adds to their otherworldly component.

Re: Ha!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Maybe they were Dharma scientists sent out into unchartered territory and something went horribly wrong?

Could be. Sayid didn't find anything with the Dharma logo at Rousseau's place but she could have thrown everything away for obvious reasons.

In addition, Ben's tale makes it look like the Others did a halfway reasonable thing by taking Alex away from Rousseau before she could harm her, but of course there is no guarantee that Ben isn't twisting reality at least a little. Especially since the Others/Hostiles obviously were never that opposed to taking Dharma/non-Other children, which of course adds to their otherworldly component.

Both Richard's encounters with child!Ben and child!John have that "man from the faerie world meets mortal child" component, true, though in both cases, he isn't taking the child just yet. As to whether or not Ben says the truth - on the one hand, while it's been long since I've watched the Sayid-gets-tortured-by-Rousseau episode I seem to recall one of the things that are revealed is that she did indeed kill her entire research team, though she says it's because they went sick/crazy and she had to isolate herself and her unborn baby. Previously, this always connected to me to what Clancy Brown's character tells Desmond about some sickness being on the island. Now, given that the hostiles got that lethal gas from SOMEWHERE I'd say it's possible they tried it out before, on the unfortunate French scientists, only they didn't die but went crazy, and Danielle did indeed kill the others etc. So Ben isn't lying but he's not adding the reason for the craziness.

Re: Ha!

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Sayid didn't find anything with the Dharma logo at Rousseau's place but she could have thrown everything away for obvious reasons.

*nods* Doylist explanation being likely that they hadn't developed the concept of Dharma just yet - or at least not the logo.

Previously, this always connected to me to what Clancy Brown's character tells Desmond about some sickness being on the island.

At that point I'm fairly sure Inman didn't believe in the sickness anymore, if he ever did. He told Desmond about it to keep him in the hatch, so that he (Inman) could work on the boat. If he had believed the sickness was real, he wouldn't have taken off his environmental suit.

Now, given that the hostiles got that lethal gas from SOMEWHERE I'd say it's possible they tried it out before, on the unfortunate French scientists, only they didn't die but went crazy, and Danielle did indeed kill the others etc. So Ben isn't lying but he's not adding the reason for the craziness.

I also remember people thinking that they were affected by the time barrier like the Kahana crew, which would of course support Danielle's version. Hmm.