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selenak: (Ten and Donna by Trolliepop)
[personal profile] selenak
They became my favourite New Who Doctor/Companion combination, and in terms of all DW, Old School and New combined, still rank among the top 3. Here are some reasons why.



1) The Runaway Bride. I’ve written an essay about it, after season 3 and before season 4, which I’m not about to repeat, so, in brevity: it’s still my favourite of the Christmas specials. Donna back then, when we didn’t know she’d ever return, struck me as a breath of fresh air after the Doctor/Rose melodrama of Doomsday. I was amused by the first few frantic scenes (which upon rewatching illustrate something that was crucial for s4 later, the fact that Catherine Tate and David Tennant have superb comic timing when with each other), but the moment I knew I liked Donna, both for herself and and for what she brought out in the Doctor was the rooftop scene, fifteen minutes into the special. They’re both exhausted, and yet able to see the humour in the situation. They’re also cautiously exchanging confidences, Donna about her life as a temp and meeting with Lance, and the Doctor about last Christmas and the loss of both Rose and her family. (Sidenote: in terms of overall Doctor characterisation, the “..with my friend and her family, my friend, she had this family…” is signficant, because much as Nine acted like a jealous child vis a vis Mickey and Jackie and Ten while being warmer towards them at times ignored both, it underlines he really liked them, and missed them as well as Rose.) At the same time, the rooftop scene isn’t all mellowness; when Mr. Motormouth blathers on about how he still can’t figure out how Donna managed to transport herself onto the TARDIS, as she’s neither superintelligent nor superpowered nor otherwise special, she retorts with a “your friend, before she left, did she punch you in the face?” This underlines an important function Donna has both in the Christmas special and later in s4; bringing the Doctor down to earth if he’s oblivious/callous/too much in the big picture to see individuals. In RB, she slaps him (several times), once with “are you enjoying this?”, but she does it verbally, too, most famously in the big showdown scene with the Raccnoss. And for those viewers who think compassion is a trait Donna never displayed before season 4: after the Santas invaded her wedding reception, she urges the Doctor to take care of the wounded, and when he says he’s not that kind of doctor, she says “all the same, people are hurt”. And while he scares her in the big showdown, enough for her to turn down his initial invitation, she still feels sorry for the emotional mess he is and invites him home for dinner. And it’s a mutual thing; the Doctor might have latched on the mystery that is Donna’s sudden appearance in the TARDIS as a way to distract himself, as he always does, but he quickly develops sympathy for her as a person, showing this both in gestures (putting his coat around her on the rooftop because she’s cold in her wedding dress, which results in the first of many gibes about his skinnyness), words (when he figures out what Lance did to her before Lance says so) and deeds (showing her the beginning of earth not just because they need to figure out what the Empress of the Raccnoss wants but because Donna needs distraction from the Lance revelation, and the Doctor being the Doctor, a wonder of the universe will do).

Another thing that’s mutual: during the special, they discover a shared sense of - playfulness? Mischief? Fun? Difficult to give it a term, but it comes out when Donna, in order to cut everyone’s questions about her disappearance at the wedding reception short, bursts into tears and then winks at the Doctor; earlier, when she picks up his “with this ring I thee biodamp” joke and responds “for better or for worse”; later, when they’re racing the tunnel with the absurd container vehicles and share a laugh.
I could understand both why he asks her to join him at the end and why she at this point turns him down, though that made me sad; not knowing anything about the next companion, I wished we’d have seen more of Donna.

2) Partners in Crime. Which we did, in season 4. Now that most people have discovered their Donna love, it’s hard to remember how much protest and whining scepticism from both media and fandom was voiced when it was announced Catherine Tate would be back for a full season. I remember a pre-season 4 article in SFX calling her “the most controversial companion since Bonnie Langford” (New Who only watchers, this was not a compliment), and RTD basically being asked to justify his choice of her in every single interview. Say what you want about Rusty, but his response was the very thing that would be echoed by fandom in the season to come – that her performance would blow everyone away, and that the Donna-Doctor dynamic was a refreshing change for the writers to write for. (He also said that anyone claiming she “screeched her way through The Runaway Bride” clearly hadn’t seen the episode, as she didn’t, and that this was not a matter of opinion but fact.) Now there is of course still a difference about a one-shot character or a character who has an entire season to interact as co-lead. So the season 4 opening episode reintroduced Donna to the audience, and it was significant what was kept, what was added, and what was changed. The most important addition was Donna’s family. We had seen her mother before in The Runaway Bride and her grandfather in Voyage of the Damned, but here the dynamics between them were introduced, with Wilf’s longing for the stars and quiet support counterbalancing Sylvia’s nagging and pragmatism, both of which did their part to form Donna. The most significant change was that now Donna was not only noticing weird occurances in the world around her but actively seeking them out, preparing for her joining the Doctor at the end of the episode. The most important continuing trait(s)? Donna’s force-of-natureness, and the way she gets the Doctor to open up to her, in this case about Martha, and about wanting “a mate”, a friend, not a girlfriend. We also get a continued display of superb shared timing between the actors in the silent mimicing of the reunion scene and the “on to the TARDIS” scene, where we go from comedy (Donna saddling the Doctor with her luggage) to character drama (mutual display of vulnerability again; Donna’s when she thinks the Doctor doesn’t want her on board, the Doctor’s when he talks about having messed up things with Martha) and back to comedy again (“you’re not mating with me, sunshine!”). This was a promising start, but the episode that truly defined Donna and the Doctor in s4 was the second one.

3) The Fires of Pompeii. If Partners in Crime put the emphasis on the comedy, The Fires of Pompeii put it on the serious side of life with the Doctor (while maintaining the comic timing displays, as in “I am Spartacus”). It made the most of the differences between human and Time Lord perspective, showcased Donna as someone able to challenge the Doctor and as someone sharing and understanding while how horrible saving the world can be. Hugs (at the start), arguments (“Donna, human, no!”), comedy (“and the ropes?”) and intense emotional connection, showing these two people whose default mode is talking silent as Donna puts her hand on the lever and pushes with him, and later both just saying “yeah” and this containing so much in terms of both acknowledgement and regret (the Doctor says it in response to Donna thanking him for saving the Caecilii, Donna says it when the Doctor tells her she was right, and that he does need her) - Fires of Pompeii runs the whole spectrum of a Doctor/Companion relationship, and if I had to pick just one episode from the season to prove to people how good these two are together, this would be it. Which doesn’t mean they’re not wonderful in others as well.

4) Planet of the Ood. In terms of the DoctorDonna (a term coined here) relationship, this starts by highlighting Donna’s practical nature (changing into something appropriate for a winter planet right at the start) and the joy the Doctor takes in being able to show her the universe, plus we get more quickfire screwball comedy exchanges, but the most important scene, both for this episode and in terms of foreshadowing, comes when Donna asks the Doctor to let her hear the song of the Ood. It’s multi-layered; it’s important that she asks, but it’s as important that when she realises she can’t bear it, she asks him to take it away again. She doesn’t have to become a martyr, dying to prove something (either to him or fate in general). And then you have her realising that the Doctor can’t take it away from himself. He hears that song all the time. You have both their partnership and the fact they are different in some ways in this scene. (You also have the difference to earlier New Who Doctor/Companion relationships. Both Rose and Martha would have played this differently, and more damaging to themselves; they were younger, more in need to prove themselves and less aware of their mortality.) That there are things that the Doctor can cope with that Donna can’t, not because of a lacking equality but because of a different nature. (Later on, we’ll see things the Doctor can’t cope with that Donna can.) Oh, and while we’re talking of foreshadowing? Someone is changing species here, and Donna comments she can’t decide what is right or wrong in this situation. The Doctor’s reply often gets only half quoted, which is a shame because the entire context is important. He says that’s better, because if you’re too sure about what’s right all the time, you end up as the episode’s villain, who was entirely convinced of his own righteousness.

5) The Sontaran Strategem/ The Poisoned Sky: this two-parter highlighted one of the most attractive aspects of the Doctor-Donna relationship: its inclusiveness, as opposed to exclusiveness. Donna was both curious about Martha and delighted to meet her, and enjoyed spending time with her; her asking Martha to stay was in a line with her pushing the Doctor to take Jenny with them later, and her being glad for the Doctor when he saw Rose again. It also continued to give us both comedy and serious character drama in the way the Doctor and Donna related to each other. She’s shown enjoying teasing him both when ganging up with Martha and when putting on her pokerface when the Doctor launched in his big premature “don’t leave me but if you must, you are so great” speech, but at the same time it’s clear she loves not just the travelling but also his company; smacking his arm for his near-martyr act with the Sontarans is as much a declaration as his “you saved my life in so many ways” was earlier. As for the Doctor, said speech and his sheepish embarrassment once he realises what she really meant as well as his concern, yet confidence in her when he talks Donna through her actions on the Sontaran ship all showcase that he’s come to adore Donna and depend on her company. (When Wilf asks him whether he’s going to take care of Donna, the Doctor replies “she’s been taking care of me!”) As opposed to his actions back when he was Nine, though, that doesn’t mean he’s not also prepared to let her go if he must.

6) The Doctor’s Daughter: in The Sontaran Strategem, Donna called the Doctor “amazing” when talking to her grandfather in confidence (and added that she has no intention of letting him ever find out she said that). Just in case we think that lead to her hero-worshipping him, we get her enjoying the hell out of Jenny making him speechless in the next episode. Which is a great showcase for the balance between teasing and emotional support; much as the Doctor being flustered and outargued by Jenny is fun for her, Donna doesn’t lose sight of the seriousness of both Jenny’s and the Doctor’s situation vis a vis each other, hence the “two hearts” demonstration, and as soon as the Doctor tells her about his previous family, the “dad shock” teasing immediately stops. But not in order to allow him to shut down and end the talk, no, followed by serious conversation. The Doctor admits to Donna far more than the simple fact of previous fatherhood, he talks about how looking at Jenny makes him feel, and all of this comes out without a life-and-death situation and/or an emotional breakdown beforehand, which are usually necessary to evoke this type of emotional openness with him.

7) The Unicorn and the Wasp: I already talked about how Agatha Christie in this episode is in many ways a Donna avatar, mirroring her past, present and future in a separate post. In terms of the DoctorDonnaness of it all, it emphasizes the relaxed comraderie between them. Point in case: Donna changing into her 1920s flapper gear, and the Doctor lighting up at the sight, telling her “you look lovely” while taking her arm and strolling towards the party with her. It’s a moment that is uniquely them in New Who terms. With both Rose and Martha, the remark would have been either not made at all or ridden with awkwardness and subtext. Rose would have responded flirtatiously, Martha hopeful and then disappointed by the lack of a follow-up. Donna just takes it for what it is, and the Doctor has no problem making it in the first place. Similarly, the teasing (“you’re ever so plucky”) doesn’t have to be investigated as to whether it was meant friendly or patronizingly; it’s a part of their friendship, just as Donna rolling her eyes at his assuming the role of inspector.

8) Silence in the Library/ The Forest of the Dead: Donna takes something of a backseat in the first part, and it feels a bit out of tune with the rest of the season in terms of both the Doctor trying to send her to safety and her reaction to River Song (this happens when you don’t edit the scripts of your star writer; see also the discontinuity between Rose and Mickey at the end of School Reunion and the start of Girl in the Fireplace), but two scenes nonetheless stand out in terms of her relationship with the Doctor; his discovery of her counterfeit at the end of Silence in the Library and the way he touches her face in disbelieving horror, and their exchange at the end of Forest of the Dead, when they’re both fine in “the Time Lord sense of the word”, acknowledging and admitting how drained they are and taking each other’s hand. It’s important that Donna doesn’t just get the Doctor to admit he feels bad but tells him how she feels as well; mutuality rules.

9) Midnight: for an episode that has minimal Donna on screen, this one says quite a lot about their friendship. Its opening scene shows them holidaying together, something we do very rarely see on screen but which fans assume to be the case. (There are some precedents; the start of The Five Doctors, for example, when Five brings Tegan and Turlough to the Eye of Orion to relax a bit between adventures. This noble intent is of course shot to hell when the plot kicks in.) Donna has no problem doing her own thing for a while, she doesn’t need to be with the Doctor every minute; you get the sense of them picking this planet because it has the superspa for her and some great sights to geek out about for him. Meanwhile, he just can’t enjoy things properly if there aren’t people to enjoy them with (hence immediate chatting up of other passengers), but he’s as relaxed as they come at the start, not put out when Donna decides to stay but already suggesting the next thing to share (dinner in a zero gravity restaurant once he’s back); these are two people deeply comfortable with each other, quirks and all. The end of the episode, of course, is the complete opposite, mood-wise. The Doctor has just been through hell, not least because Donna was not with him, and all his usual assets failed or were turned against him. And Donna, who doesn’t just know when he needs a slap or a teasing but when he needs a hug, just embraces him. Of all the Doctor-Donna hugs, this is my favourite, as the audience needs it as direly as the Doctor at this point. And then we finish with him confiding in her. He doesn’t even go through the “I’m fine” euphemism routine anymore.

10) Turn Left/The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End: the finale three parter starts on a similar note as Midnight did, with Donna and the Doctor enjoying another world together (and daring each other to drink alien milkshakes); we then get a demonstration of how life would have turned out if the two had never met. This would have resulted in an increasingly dire dystopia for Earth in general and an increasingly depressing personal situation for Donna in particular – but her natural heroism would still have asserted itself. The Doctor without Donna, on the other hand? Would have been dead. With the strong suggestion of passive suicide. (And no, I don’t think it would have been as simple as “Rose is gone, might as well die” but the amalgation of circumstances; he did commit genocide for the first time since the Time War in Runaway Bride, and the last time he was in that situation, back when he was Nine, he couldn’t go through with it and would have died along with millions of Dalek-conquered humans if not for the dea ex machina intervention of Rose-plus-TARDIS. He was pretty suicidal then, too. Ten being more ruthless than Nine, he could go through with it, but that doesn’t mean he’s less self-loathing about being able to be so. See also Fires of Pompeii, where again the presence of Donna makes sure this doesn’t get suicidal.) In retrospect, it’s not surprising that after all this emphasis on how good they are with each other and for each other, we would get a separation in the most heart-breaking way possible, and this would not be via Donna’s death.

Back when they first met, when killer Santas, giant spiders and huon particles were all out to drive Donna into an early grave, the Doctor promised her that whatever it took, he would make sure she would not die. He sometimes makes that promise so save someone’s life, and though he always tries, he can’t always keep it. (Ask Astrid.) But, as River Song says in the voice-over for Forest of the Dead, he’ll never, ever accept this. There was no question he would accept death for Donna Noble, who “saved his life in so many ways”, who became his friend, who saved the universe (twice) and who was dying because something of him was in her. Because of him. There was no way he would let her die. Now you can hate the narrative/RTD for creating this situation in the first place and/or for not solving the problem of having Catherine Tate for only one season in another way, but I really can’t understand why one would hate the Doctor for choosing to save Donna’s life over letting her die a gruesome death with her memories of their adventures together intact. If he had let her die, he wouldn’t be the Doctor, and definitely wouldn’t have been her friend. Those last scenes in Journey’s End, an episode which among other things contains one last love declaration/big showcase to and for the actors and their dynamic in the scene where Donna and Blue!Doctor start to adopt each other’s mannerisms, are killing me, but I watch them with a deep love for both characters, and what they had together. The best of times. They really did.
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Date: 2008-08-07 02:45 pm (UTC)
ext_7287: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lakrids404.livejournal.com
Interesting comments, as always with you.

The end of seasons four and the faith Donna Nobel, made me want to commit fanfic. In where Donna Nobel, with her Time Lords genes, can intuitive sense how the end of universe will end. It’s not an ending she agrees with, so will wants to change the universe, and (more and less) unknowingly breaks a lot a Time lords rules. Now am I just waiting for the English writing skill pack to arrive from Amazon, so I can get started.

Date: 2008-08-07 03:06 pm (UTC)
kathyh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kathyh
The best of times. They really did.

Sniffle. Yes, they really did. Excellent essay as always and I boringly agree with every word :)

I had to pick just one episode from the season to prove to people how good these two are together, this would be it.

Yes, I think it's no coincidence that this is the episode I've rewatched most often because it's the first time we truly see the Doctor and Donna start to become partners and how good they really can be for each other. If I was of a fanfic writing persuasion, which fortunately for everybody else I'm not, I'd love to do something with Donna coming across the Caecilii household gods in a museum :)

If he had let her die, he wouldn’t be the Doctor, and definitely wouldn’t have been her friend.

Exactly!!!

Date: 2008-08-07 03:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] londonkds.livejournal.com
Will comment in more detail later, but Donna's dressed as a 1920s flapper. Calling a woman a slapper in British English means something extremely unpleasant.

Date: 2008-08-07 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seriousfic.livejournal.com
Now you can hate the narrative/RTD for creating this situation in the first place and/or for not solving the problem of having Catherine Tate for only one season in another way, but I really can’t understand why one would hate the Doctor for choosing to save Donna’s life over letting her die a gruesome death with her memories of their adventures together intact.

I think part of it is that he has all this time to write Rose/Doctor fanfic set Rose up with Blue!Doctor in an AU and say goodbye to Martha and Mickey and Jack, but then when the time comes to mind-wipe Donna it's "NO TIME FOR DISCUSSION! MIND-WIPE NOW!"

What, he couldn't have spared five minutes to let her come to terms with the situation, say goodbye to him, etc.?

Besides which, the idea that he's also pretty much going to leave her in life-threatening peril for the rest of her life (what happens if she sees the Doctor carrying the Olympic Torch or hears a Doctor fanboy talking about the TARDIS?) instead of trying to find a way to save her is... ugh. Maybe Return of the Cybermen will start off with the Doctor seeking out a cure in Victorian England, but the effect right now is that the Doctor heard Davros tell him "You keep running away from the disasters you create, you never take responsibility for your actions," and pretty much said "Yup, that's me alright, now for some more crazy hijinx!"

Date: 2008-08-07 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
what happens if she sees the Doctor carrying the Olympic Torch or hears a Doctor fanboy talking about the TARDIS?

The same thing that happened when she saw the Doctor standing right in front of her in her living room and then in the kitchen. Nothing. Presumably the memories he locked would need a hell more than a visual reference or talk to be triggered. As he said to Wilf, conversation about him or the alien invasions will only be a story to her.

but the effect right now is that the Doctor heard Davros tell him "You keep running away from the disasters you create, you never take responsibility for your actions," and pretty much said "Yup, that's me alright, now for some more crazy hijinx!"

Huh? I don't care about the beach scene one way or the other (not being a shipper), but that, among other things, was the Doctor manipulating both Rose and his alter ego into taking care of each other. Which I didn't see as romantic but as pure Seven-style manipulation, as mentioned, but among other things it made sure Rose wouldn't try to cross universes again and Alt!Ten was busy elsewhere as well. And then, when he saw that Donna was in imminent danger of a breakdown (I think because there was no precedent he hoped against hope she WOULD be able to cope, as long as she didn't show any signs of being negatively influenced, but as soon as she started to get into Flowers-for-Algernon mode he had to act), he faced the consequences of that in the most drastic manner possible. What was that, if not taking responsibility for what was happening to her? And he saw it worked; she was alive and alert, could face him without getting into word-repeating breakdown mode. He had no excuse for hanging around chez Noble afterwards.

Date: 2008-08-07 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I dimly remember there was a fanfic where Donna came across the Caecillii household gods, but I read that hours before my departure to Bali, so I can't recall what it had been!

Boring agreement is okay.*g* And somewhat reassuring. I mean, I know each viewer watches a different show/episode based on individual perception, but it still weirds me out that people could watch those final ten or so minutes and present it as the Doctor callously abandonning Donna. This is like summing up the relevant scenes from "The Fall of Centauri Prime" as "Londo has become snobbish and powermad and this is why he callously sends Vir away and says goodbye to G'Kar as well, the bastard" or the finale from "Becoming" as "Buffy stabs Angel and sends him to hell because she had PMS and nothing else to do that afternoon".

Date: 2008-08-07 04:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
*edited*

Date: 2008-08-07 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Go for it, I say. The skills come with the writing.

Date: 2008-08-07 04:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seriousfic.livejournal.com
The same thing that happened when she saw the Doctor standing right in front of her in her living room and then in the kitchen. Nothing. Presumably the memories he locked would need a hell more than a visual reference or talk to be triggered. As he said to Wilf, conversation about him or the alien invasions will only be a story to her.

(I think because there was no precedent he hoped against hope she WOULD be able to cope, as long as she didn't show any signs of being negatively influenced, but as soon as she started to get into Flowers-for-Algernon mode he had to act)


The problem there is that if you fan-wank the Doctor knowing there's no chance she'll accidentally have a breakdown (and furthermore that there's no way to cure her), then you have to ask how come it's all guesswork when it comes to the Flowers-for-Algernon? Which, okay, the entire sequence was basically contrived to be as tragic as possible by the production team's admission (because Donna resigning herself to her fate is less tragic then her screaming "No! No!", I guess), but the contrivances really show and you have to do an inorganic amount of fan-wanking to justify the story being told.

Date: 2008-08-07 04:28 pm (UTC)
kathyh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kathyh
I've been thinking for a while that the Doctor might need to get together with Buffy Summers and Duncan MacLeod to form an "OMG, we've been so mean to everybody that we don't deserve to be the heroes of our own series" support group *eg*.

Date: 2008-08-07 04:52 pm (UTC)
ext_23738: donna noble (Default)
From: [identity profile] wondygal.livejournal.com
Sigh. I love them so much. And I love you for highlighting the somewhat parallel situations in Planet of the Ood and Journey's End, that's an observation that hadn't occurred to me. Just. Yes. Lots of love for this team. May the Big Finish gods make audios with Tate and Tennant in the future. It could happen! You never know! Sigh.

Date: 2008-08-07 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
The Doctor has a somewhat unfair advantage there because while Buffy and Duncan get judged completely by the fans in question, with the Doctor it depends on the incarnation. I stopped counting the "I love Nine, Nine would never have done that, whereas Ten..." posts, and of course playing out various regenerations against each other is a grand old tradition (with some canon justification in that of course there are some things Doctor X would do but not Doctor Y - i.e. see Four being unable to wipe out the Daleks ahead of creation whereas Seven would have done it and to his knowledge did do it). So he gets only partially bashed.

Anyway. I wrote this post to celebrate the greatness of the Donna-Doctor team-up and so many favourite moments, not to complain. God knows there are things I rant about which make other fans happy, too. (Kara/Lee comes to mind...) So I don't expect to convince anyone who made up his/her mind. Just share the fannish joy.

Date: 2008-08-07 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Oh, you do know! No way Big Finish is going to miss out that one once they get the green light for using New Who characters, and with Tate and Tennant having enjoyed working with each other so much, they'll agree to do it. (DT is in lots of the audios already because he's such a fanboy, and for CT it wouldn't as time consuming as shooting a season would be.)

Back on Bali in the sun on the beach, I listened to the Chain Reaction interview again on my ipod, and they are just priceless together, even without a script. If I were a producer, I'd hire a scriptwriter to write them a feature film NOW. (Aaron Sorkin, but that's optional. )

Date: 2008-08-07 05:10 pm (UTC)
ext_23738: donna noble (Default)
From: [identity profile] wondygal.livejournal.com
Tennant would agree, but I think Tate might be too expensive? But they clearly enjoyed working with each other, so here's hoping!

Oh, I never get tired of that interview. It's my happy place. And I'm still waiting for someone to write a crossover with Ten and Donna on TWW. Someone must, eventually.

Date: 2008-08-07 05:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
"So," Donna said, "let me get this straight. You made Queen Victoria hate your guts. And you're responsible for Harriet Jones stepping down. Plus Martha told me you Queen Elizabeth wants your head. And your ex boyfriend killled the American President on the telly for all to see! Is this a Time Lord thing? Do you have it in for heads of goverment?"
"He wasn't..." the Doctor started, then sighed. "I'll have you know," he said, trying to sound rightously aggrieved, "that I got along perfectly fine with Winston Churchill."
Donna looked unimpressed. "In the Time Lord sense of the world?"
"I also had a nice exchange in Latin with Jed Bartlett!"
"Who?"
"Jed Bartlett", the Doctor said smugly. "He was President before Winters and what's his name. I met him when he was in Stockholm getting his Nobel prize, though, and it was all a bit hectic with the Vikings coming through a time rift, but I'm sure he'd remember me!"
"They all remember you, Space Man", Donna commented. "That's why they want to kill you. But fine. If you're pals with President Bartlett, prove it. Let's go there when he's still in power!"

Date: 2008-08-07 05:51 pm (UTC)
ext_23738: donna noble (Default)
From: [identity profile] wondygal.livejournal.com
WIN. Ha! It cracks me up that the first thing the Doctor contests is that the Master is his ex. "In the Time Lord sense of the word"! Donna has obviously heard stories of Gallifrey politics.

And now you have made way for TWO DW/TWW fics! Because now the one in Stockholm with the vikings must also exist. I see that happening with Five, strangely. Ooh, Six! Six and Jed in a battle of the egos! They would start showing off their genius within two minutes of their acquaintance.

Date: 2008-08-07 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
It cracks me up that the first thing the Doctor contests is that the Master is his ex.

Well, he would and then he would so have to give it up as a lost cause. *g*

And yes, the meeting in Stockholm took place when he was Six. It was a mighty clash of geniuses, oh yes! Peri was alternatingly embarassed and amused, but luckily hit it off with Abby, so they were busy having a nice chat while the boys were squaring off in Latin, and then the vikings appeared...

Date: 2008-08-07 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] honorh.livejournal.com
Beautiful summation of the series. I'll have more to say in email once I'm mildly less stressed about upcoming moves to freakin' Japan.

I can't decide if I love Ten/Donna or Nine/Rose/Jack more (not necessarily 'shipping sense, though Ten/Donna has produced some *fine* crackfic). I'll call it a draw.

Date: 2008-08-07 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neutralalienist.livejournal.com
Oh, this was lovely. I think I'll just point to this post whenever I want to gush about them.

I still hate how Donna's story ended – I felt it undermined everything they were trying to say, never mind taking the Donna we know away – but it's nice to focus on the good. And there was quite a lot of it to go around.

After my visceral reaction, no, I don't hate the Doctor for what he did, just RTD for making him do it. ;p Because he knew Donna would always be amazing even if she didn't, and he knew that she was a survivor. How could he not? Only two reasons why he loves her so much.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who loved Runaway Bride when it first came round. I was ecstatic when we heard that Donna was going to be the new companion.

Date: 2008-08-07 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kindkit.livejournal.com
If he had let her die, he wouldn’t be the Doctor, and definitely wouldn’t have been her friend.

Yes. And although it's true that Donna begged him not to do it, I think her state was comparable to someone who, say, was in a car crash and had their leg trapped in the burning wreckage. In that situation, someone might well be terrified and beg not to have their leg amputated, but any responsible doctor would ignore that and do it anyway to save their life.

I think your observation about the parallel between that moment and the thing earlier with the Ood song is great, too. We see from very early in the season that DoctorDonna isn't entirely true; Donna is not a Time Lord and there are some things that physically or emotionally she just can't bear. (Mind you, I'm still bothered by the fact that blue!Doctor, who seems to be just as human physiologically as Donna, didn't have the same problem. In fact, I've decided that he did, even though we didn't see it onscreen.)

Date: 2008-08-07 06:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
If I were moving to Japan, I'd be in a state of a nervous breakdown because of the moving stress by now, so trust me, I empathize. *hands over cool virtual drink*

With me, it's Ten/Donna versus Seven/Ace versus Three/Jo/Brigadier for the top position, and together they make my top three, with Six/Evelyn coming close behind.

Date: 2008-08-07 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Because he knew Donna would always be amazing even if she didn't, and he knew that she was a survivor. How could he not? Only two reasons why he loves her so much.

Absolutely. He knew she was magnicent the first time they parted, and everything that came after just proved how much she'd rise to any occasion.

And you know, that's all I wanted - focusing on the good, not in order to deny the negative (which in this series definitely is there, as in all other seasons) but to show the good that was there a plenty, and which is why I mostly look forward to getting my season DVDS so much.

I was ecstatic when we heard that Donna was going to be the new companion.

Me too. I mean, I would have been open minded to a new companion, too, but the Donna news made me squee out loud. But yes, we were in a minority. It was quite satisfying to see people come around, I can tell you.

Date: 2008-08-07 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I think her state was comparable to someone who, say, was in a car crash and had their leg trapped in the burning wreckage. In that situation, someone might well be terrified and beg not to have their leg amputated, but any responsible doctor would ignore that and do it anyway to save their life.

That's how I saw it, too. Also, Donna doesn't say she'd rather die, she says "but I was going to travel with you forever" - which was impossible either way. It was her death versus her minus those memories but otherwise healthy and sane, not travelling versus not travelling.

Donna is not a Time Lord and there are some things that physically or emotionally she just can't bear.

And with the Ood, when she's in complete control and not in the process of breaking down, she asks him to take it away. Because she's not suicidal.

Mind you, I'm still bothered by the fact that blue!Doctor, who seems to be just as human physiologically as Donna, didn't have the same problem. In fact, I've decided that he did, even though we didn't see it onscreen

That was sloppy writing, I agree, and I'm wavering between two fanwanks, either that Blue!Doctor doesn't breakdown because he's a new creation, a mixture between the Doctor and Donna from the start, whereas Donna was an already existing human who got the Time Lord bits forced into an already complete brain, or that Blue!Doctor does indeed suffer after effects in the PeteVerse later on when we don't see it.


Date: 2008-08-07 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kindkit.livejournal.com
I think either of those fanwanks works. I tend to go for the second one, mostly because I do not like Doctor/Rose, and I feel like the blue!Doctor stuff was written in specifically to let Rose get married to a Doctor and have his babies, which . . . ugh. So a cruel part of me prefers the ending where the poor man's brain explodes.

Date: 2008-08-07 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rivrea.livejournal.com
Now you've made me all teary-eyed for Donna again.

And a big WORD to everything you said here. (Except maybe for your thoughts on the ending of S4; while I would have hated to see Donna die, I wish the decision to mindwipe her had been clearly presented as a mutual one. Her lack of agency in this makes me feel uncomfortable.)
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