Sunday links, the non-fiction part

[selenak]

Not only of interest if you've watched him as Mr. Eko in Lost (or Simon Adebesi in Oz): a fascinating article about Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje, who was born Nigerian, fostered by a (white) British family and struggled with conflicting race and class identities as well as a great many other things. He comes across as compelling as the characters he portrayed as an actor.

Also in this Sunday's Observer was something that ticked me off: the ten best historical novels. With the exception of War and Peace, there's not a single novel among them not written in the English language. So even leaving alone the extreme questionability of the "best" criterium - I always prefer titling such lists "my ten favourite etc." because that's more honest, and nobody can argue about personal preferences - I have to wonder why the critic in question didn't simply leave Tolstoy off the list and call it "my ten favourite historical novels written English". Either that, or he's truly ignorant of non-Anglo literature. I mean, for God's sake - no Dumas or Victor Hugo, who founded the genre more than Walter Scott did? No Princesse de Cleves? No Lion Feuchtwanger, Heinrich Mann, Stefan Zweig? No Mika Waltari? Boooooooooooo. Hissssssssssss.

While I'm in combatitive mood: what she said, "she" being the brilliant legionseagle, in relation to the use of a certain scene in The Avengers and some fannish reaction to same. The comments to her post are also good for the most part, but contain one of the most irritating examples for attempted argument derailment I've seen since catvalente posted about the difference of reactions had Christopher Priest (apropos his Clarke award rant) been a woman and had to deal with a troll. Also, every time I read someone declaring it to be ooc for Loki to use a gendered insult towards Natasha, I wonder whether they somehow missed that Thor established: a) movieverse Asgard to be a sexist society (the dialogue between Sif and Thor early on makes it clear Sif is the first female warrior of her status and had considerable obstacles to overcome because of her gender), b) Loki making a barely veiled rape threat against Jane Foster near the end of the film. Yes, he does it to goad Thor into fighting him. Exactly. He insults Natasha to get a reaction out of her, too. But if you believe that Loki should be somehow above using gendered insults, you haven't been paying attention to what the movieverse established about him personally and the society he grew up in.

Comments

[lilacsigil]

You know, I would love to see a superhero movie set in a world without misogyny or racism or homophobia. That would be awesome! It would also involve a vast amount of world-building and revisualisation, all of which would be cool, but it certainly wasn't done in Avengers! Avengers is basically what I call a "real world plus" setting (real world plus superpowers, real world plus ghosts, real world plus aliens etc.)

I've also seen "Loki hates HUMANS not women in particular, so he shouldn't say that," but that only makes sense when he's engaging with people as a group, as in the Stuttgart scene. When he is speaking to an individual woman, he comes from (and to) a sexist society that has a special extra set of insults for women and girls, so why wouldn't he use them? I mean, he's just told Natasha he will make Hawkeye torture and kill her "intimately" - which is, really, a rape threat to both her and Hawkeye, but he's saying it to her, not him.

[selenak]

When he is speaking to an individual woman, he comes from (and to) a sexist society that has a special extra set of insults for women and girls, so why wouldn't he use them?

Exactly. I've also seen the argument, using comics and mythology (two very different sources), that he wouldn't use a gendered insult because he switches gender himself. Well, he does in mythology, but the Loki of Norse myths is no more identical with this Loki than, say, Merlin and Arthur in the current BBC show are identical to Sir Thomas Malory's versions from Le Mort D'Arthur, and so what one Loki did should not be used as an argument to what is and isn't ooc for another. Oh, and as for the Marvelverse comics version: correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his latest female incarnation accomplished by not changing his own body but stealing Sif's and using hers? Which is creepy and partriarchal to the max. In any case, same argument as for the myths version: each Loki should only be judged by what the medium he's in provides by ways of characterisation. Which, for movieverse Loki, is as we agree that he's both coming from a sexist society and interacting with one - and has a track record of using gender-specific threats.

Sci Fi that claims to be set in a world which has evolved beyond sexism, racism and homophobia is another issue. (Which is why the TOS episode of "no female Captains in Starfleet" infamy jarrs so much. It's probably telling that the 60s scriptwriters could imagine an advanced human society where people of all nations were on a space ship together - but women in charge, zomg, no!) But Avengers makes no such claim.

[lilacsigil]

And in mythology he is shamed and reviled for his changing into a female form and becoming pregnant, which rather says something in itself! Yes, you're right about the Marvel Lady Loki - that was Sif's body, though it was a bit more complicated than just stealing it (reincarnation accidents were involved). But I agree that while evidence from other canons can bolster characterisation, it's not evidence as such.

Oh, that episode of Star Trek! I've never actually watched it but I remember reading about it in disbelief because by that time, I'd read lots of other Star Trek TOS novels with female captains and admirals all over the place!

[lakrids404]

no subject

well I am shocked and appealed , that you didn't, have Johanes B. Jensens The Fall of The King" on your list!!.

Be these list are somewhat silly as you can't, or so would I guess, read all of the books even in one genre. Afterwards grade them from some more or less personal standard.

But also I have head, that the English speaking countries don't translate much literature, where as that in Germany, there are a tradition for translating, literature even from minor languages.
So conclusion? Forgive him, he is just a product of his culture.

[meri]

"What she said" has been pretty much my response this whole time too. I liked that insult because it was so nasty and horrible* and when I saw it a second time I could practically hear Natasha thinking, "Got you, motherfucker" just as Loki was thinking the same thing.

Both times I've seen it the theater gasped in horror that he said it. Gasped, out loud!

[selenak]

My audience didn't, all three times, but that's because Germans don't learn the word in question in school, and your avarage every day conversation and/or English language movie shown in original form doesn't contain it, either. The only reason why I knew it before watching the film was because I had read a historical-fantastical novel by rozk before where a (female) 18th century character uses the term, and then I could guess what it meant from context. (Haven't seen the film dubbed, so I have no idea what our dubbing team made of the expression.)

[meri]

I was actually surprised that the audience gasped because I assumed most people didn't know the word, even a native English speaking one, because it's archaic. Which pleased me both that they knew the word's meaning and that they were appalled that he said that. No one gasped when Black Widow pointed out he killed 80 people in the middle of the movie.

[selenak]

Which I think proves that Loki needed to say this and to kill Coulson. Because killing people whom the audience hasn't connected with remains abstract to most people; if he does something to characters the audience knows and cares about, they can't avoid feeling the reality of it.

Btw, the last few days and discussions have solidified a theory I have, especially after someone pointed out Loki tired at Natasha during the sky chase scene. He has it in for her in particular before she plays him already, not just because he can or because he wants to mess with everyone's head, but because the concept of what Natasha did is disturbing to him. He has to believe there is no such thing as restarting your life (other than becoming an evil overlord), try to make up for the past, and be accepted by other people, because if that works, he has to face the fact he's simply too cowardly to try and this mere mortal, Natasha, was not. So she has to be a self deluding idiot or has to be annihilated.

[meri]

I actually loved the use of the word in that scene and thought when I watched the first time (and gasped) that it was perfect for the bad guy to say and perfect for the scene (which I already had guessed was going to be flipped on it's head thanks to her introduction scene.)

The links between Natasha and Loki are some of my favorites in the movie. I'm not surprised that I like both of those characters the most from the movie, since they are "opposite sides of the same coin" - to steal from Merlin. And I just realized what it means that it's Natasha who points out Loki's red ledger in that meeting. It makes sense that she ties to keep that in perspective for everyone.

[harpijka]

What lakrdis404 said...
Still, not having many translated books from different languages in English doesn't absolve in this case someone who is a CRITIC of literature...

By the way, there's one more not-English novel on the list: The Leopard, written in Italian, a marvelous, insightful book about revolutions, changing times (although in fact not much changes :)