Meta essay and a story link
Aug. 27th, 2004 11:43 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakFirstly, I wrote another DS9 essay, this time about my favourite Ferengi and the role he has in the overall story:
"Trickster and Wise Fool"
Secondly, on the B5 front,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
andrastewhite wrote a delightful take on Morden and G'Kar, with, err, a twist. Taking the how-much-does-gender-form-the-story debate searose started and yours truly continued in our respective ljs some months ago another step further.
"Trickster and Wise Fool"
Secondly, on the B5 front,
andrastewhite wrote a delightful take on Morden and G'Kar, with, err, a twist. Taking the how-much-does-gender-form-the-story debate searose started and yours truly continued in our respective ljs some months ago another step further.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 02:11 pm (UTC)I must admit to really enjoying the moment where Quark calls Sisko on his attitude towards Ferengi and Quark in particular mainly because all too often humanity (or the Federation, often confused as one and the same) seems to get represented as the perfect race.
Thank you
Date: 2004-08-27 02:17 pm (UTC)*de-lurking*
Date: 2004-08-29 09:00 am (UTC)Eventually, I found your story "Truth or Dare" and immediately loved it to pieces. You have probably heard that already quite often : but it is really great how you write in character. So in character that I sometimes found myself quoting lines ("That was when he decided we should both die in an elevator, together, while he was singing songs for me") and wondered whether they had been on the show or not.
But my favorite part is when G'kar says "I'm sorry, too". It is one of the few things that has irked me about them on the show; while Londo apologizes, we didn't get a similar scene with G'Kar. Londo is admittedly the one with the "greater" guilt due to his alliance with the Shadows and what happened because of it. But I cannot bring myself to not think of the events of "Dust to Dust". I'm sure one could explain the lack of a more obvious follow up with something like Londo subconsciously thinking of the event as a punishment and Londo has a habit of ignoring certain things...but I would have loved to hear a "I'm sorry, too" from G'Kar, nonetheless.
I also loved the reference to the "what might have been" had Morden chosen G'Kar instead of Londo. It's such a irony, G'kar ends up being the one worshipped and respected but had he had said something slightly different back then, things would have very likely turned out to be much worse then what they have with Londo.
The only thing I have a problem with with this story is that the continuity with the show isn't quite right. G'kar got turned into a religious icon after his first visit of Centauri Prime with Londo.
I also loved how you incorporated "Truth or Dare" into "Not in Words". This fic made me wish we would have seen more of Timov on the show. I'm curious how she would have interacted with Londo's new bodygourd. And it made me all misty eyed at the end. "Knowing Love" is also very touching. And it brings up an issue that has always bothered me in real life, too: that love can be so many things, not just mindless pining for somebody. My favorite part in this fic is the comparison between the love of Sheridan/Delenn and Talia/Susan. And I laughed out loud at the description that Marcus looks like he's about to burt into song every moment. And I of course liked the description of the relationship between Vir and Londo.
But originally I wanted to gush about a different relationship here. "In Vino Veritas" was hilarious in a "I knew it !" kind of way. It's so good to know that one is not the only person in the universe who thinks these both characters are great (and much fun) together. You see, I'm not that much into slash, I like only a few pairings that I think are plausible. And after spending way too much time thinking about this particular pairing, I came to the conclusion that they are very plausible. Speaking of slash, I interpreted "Confessions of a Biographer" as a delightful take on the slash-fandom. There really isn't that much in the fic that isn't in the canon. It's all just a question of how you interpret the facts ;-).
I've also found your Londo rpg journal and am once more in awe of how well you write the character. I imagine it must be strain sometimes to have such a vivid character take long-time residence in your mind. ;-).
I should stop here or otherwise this will get too long for the comment restrictions. I have a question, though : I've only recently (meaning in the last three days) started reading Sandman and I would like to now after which book it is safe to read the B5 crossover ?
And while I'm here, I also have non-B5 question : I was wondering how old Res is ? I pictured her about 15/16 years old, on condition that the people of Siridom age similar to humans. And before you start wondering : no, I'm not some possessed stalker, I'm just always curious about other people's user pics and recognized a picture from your website.
(concerning the Quark essay: I've never been really sure why I like Quark, but this made it clearer to me :-))
Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-08-29 12:10 pm (UTC)Ah, the quest for Londo & G'Kar stories. I looked for a decade and found only one. Then I wrote one myself, which was "Truth or Dare", and then I met comrades-in-arms, and lo and behold, the tide turned. Now there is a lot more Centaur & Narn fanfic.
However, "Truth or Dare" was written before I had a chance to rewatch the episodes via DVD and video, which is why G'Kar being a religious icon is somewhat premature. And why he's spellt "G'kar". Blame my memory. After writing said story, I rewatched.
It is one of the few things that has irked me about them on the show; while Londo apologizes, we didn't get a similar scene with G'Kar. Londo is admittedly the one with the "greater" guilt due to his alliance with the Shadows and what happened because of it. But I cannot bring myself to not think of the events of "Dust to Dust".
As Andraste once put it, Londo does terrible things to the Narns in general; G'Kar does terrible things to Londo.
I'm sure one could explain the lack of a more obvious follow up with something like Londo subconsciously thinking of the event as a punishment and Londo has a habit of ignoring certain things...but I would have loved to hear a "I'm sorry, too" from G'Kar, nonetheless.
Several things come to mind. For starters, I agree that Londo probably sees the event as a punishment somehow. Note also that pre-Dust to Dust, he does show signs of being afraid of G'Kar, but post-Dust to Dust, this just isn't an issue anymore. He makes the off-screen deal about Refa, and the on-screen season 4 one about Cartagia, and afterwards, he's the one to initialize conversations between them. Consciously or subconsciously, Londo sees G'Kar less as his nemesis and more like his own personal judge, jury and (as he knows from his dream) eventual executioner, and so to him the Dust to Dust beating up and mind rape is probably the expected judgment. Note that when he replays the torture from The Summoning in his mind in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari with switched roles, he doesn't cast G'Kar in his own role but as Cartagia, i.e. both as the one dispensing punishment and judgment, and as the one capable of enjoying this.
Dust to Dust also unquestioningly the point of the show where G'Kar hits moral rock bottom, and I think he knows it; that's why he cries when coming out of his vision and looking at Londo as much as for the realisation brought by Kosh masquerading as his father.
G'Kar not apologizing has, imo, to do that his particular challenge is another one. If Londo can't for a long time bring himself to say "I'm sorry", the three words G'Kar finds hardest to say are "I forgive you". Note that he explicitly tells Delenn in Ship of Tears that he can't forgive her, even though he understands why she acted as she did. (And Delenn's blame for the fate of Narn is far less direct than Londo's.) So when G'Kar finally does tell Londo he forgives him in The Fall of Centauri Prime, it's as important and big a step as Londo's apology.
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-08-30 01:51 am (UTC)However, "Truth or Dare" was written before I had a chance to rewatch the episodes via DVD and video, which is why G'Kar being a religious icon is somewhat premature. And why he's spellt "G'kar". Blame my memory. After writing said story, I rewatched.
Memory is such a fun thing. I watched the show the first time when it originally aired. I must have been about 12 or so. I forgot most of it during the years so it was like watching a new show when I re-watched last year. The funny thing was noticing which parts my memory had kept and which not. For example my memory decided to keep most vivid memories of Season5 Londo and G'Kar. I was quite surprised when seeing Season1 and after Dust to Dust I was pretty sure that my memory was a quite unreliable thing. Somehow my memory had also managed to almost completely erase Sheridan...
Your explanation as why there is no G'Kar apology scene makes perfect sense. I was always aware that the "But I can forgive you" moment was a crucial point but I never consciously thought of it as the "parallel scene" to Londo's "I'm sorry". Coming to think of it, it is actually quite obvious...This both scenes are like a frame to them for Season 5. If I remember correctly the first time in Season 5 we see them really together is in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari when Londo wakes up and apologizes. And their last scene, if you don't count the bow, is G'Kar forgiving him. Actually you can take that a little further. Before the apology in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari we have dream-G'Kar as how you phrased it, as Londo's judge and jury. And in the very last scene we have G'Kar all silent (what is seldom enough) and bowing before Londo.
And their respective "challenges" as you said, mirror the challenges of their whole people...with the irony that when G'Kar forgives he is no longer really on best terms with his people, who just did quite the contrary to forgiving. What makes another parallel line in their development. G'Kar's development eventually distances him from his people while Londo's action are most of the time firmly connected to Centauri Prime...
See, that's why I love this show and these characters so much. If you keep on thinking you keep on realizing new things instead of growing tired of them.
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-08-30 11:22 am (UTC)For my part, I had remembered how intense their enmity in earlier days was but was stuck on how Londo's anger and frustration with his situation was present even in the very first episode of the first season - that I had not remembered, my memories of first season Londo were mostly of a light-hearted nature. Speaking of that first episode, what had also slipped from me was how G'Kar was collecting the bad karma here, because the circumstances - the Narn, through a third party, arrange an attack on a Centauri outpost (Ragesh III), then move in - exactly mirror what Londo organizes via the Shadows with the Narn outpost in Quadrant 14 in Coming of Shadows. And lo and behold, I recently checked the published script of Coming of Shadows. During Londo's dream/vision, the very first image he sees is Ragesh III. (I had always assumed it was supposed to be the Narn outpost, not the Centauri one.)
The most amazing thing about the show when rewatching it is really, and that's not limited to Londo & G'Kar, how ambitious it was, how detailed the planning for the arcs must have been. Can't think of another show which would have an episode like Babylon Squared, with the full knowledge that it will have to be years till the pay-off, in its first season.
Somehow my memory had also managed to almost completely erase Sheridan...
He. I had a lot more toleration for Sheridan the second time around; the first time, I often mostly waited for him to get off-screen so I'd get more of my Centauri, Narn & telepaths. When rewatching, I found I actually liked some of the Sheridan-centric episodes quite a lot - In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, for example, is downright stunning. But he still can't hold a candle to the aliens in my affections...
Actually you can take that a little further. Before the apology in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari we have dream-G'Kar as how you phrased it, as Londo's judge and jury. And in the very last scene we have G'Kar all silent (what is seldom enough) and bowing before Londo.
Yes, and that reminds me of their actual death scene which we see in season 3. That one has so much else gripping me that it took some repeated viewings until I realised something - G'Kar actually lets Londo have the last word. He only says one thing - "Yes", in reply to "my old friend".
G'Kar's development eventually distances him from his people while Londo's action are most of the time firmly connected to Centauri Prime...
The parallels and differences are fascinating. Vir aside, Londo doesn't really have friends among the Centauri once he's become powerful, and even Vir, at the end, cannot understand what is going on (because he doesn't have the necessary information, and Londo can't tell him), whereas you get the impression that G'Kar, after all he has witnessed, has put the clues together.
Similarily, G'Kar after Na'Toth's departure doesn't really have friends among the Narn. There is Ta'Lon, sure, but they're never even as close as G'Kar and Garibaldi, or G'Kar and Delenn. Both of whom I'd categorize as good but not intimate friends for later seasons G'Kar.
They're both willing to become sacrifices for their people, while at the same time being increasingly isolated from them (and closer to each other). And then of course you have the big contrast in The Long Night, when both Londo and G'Kar get offered the top position among their people (even in the same room - Cartagia's throne room on Narn). Londo accepts and G'Kar declines. (Not that Londo at that point has much choice - if he had declined, the Shadows would have stayed on Centauri Prime...) Which settles their individual destinies...
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-08-31 03:16 am (UTC)The most amazing thing about the show when rewatching it is really, and that's not limited to Londo & G'Kar, how ambitious it was, how detailed the planning for the arcs must have been.
Yes, that's one of the many things I so love about it. I will be re-watching it in the next months as I have finally convinced a friend of mine to watch the show. And I find I am as much looking forward to it as when I was about to see it for the "first" time last year.
Babylon Squared is certainly the most prominent example for the amibitous planning. But there are so many little details that make me stand in awe of it. For example in the first episode when G'Kar offers Londo some fresh spoo and Londo becomes even a little more infuriated. And we only find out in season 5 that Centauri and fresh spoo do not exactly go well with another. Or how many shows are there where you get told how one of the main characters will die in the very first episode ?
And isn't it amazing how some scenes or things, which seem completely harmelss on first viewing, get a twist in a later episode ? For example Parliament of Dreams when G'Kar is refusing to scream. The first time around it is not exactly something special. Most shows have an episode in which a main character gets captured and tortured. And the whole episode has such a light-heartedness about it that you tend to take the whole incidcent not that serious. And then come the first episodes of season 4 along...Or out of the same episode : the fishies song and its re-use in Convictions. The elevator scene is one of that scenes that crack me up and creep me out at the same time.
Concerning Sheridan : now, after I remember him again and have had some time to think about him, I feel rather unsure about him. I realized that it is not the character himself that I have problems with. It is more the way he was used in later seasons. I really liked Intersections in Real Time. I could appreciate him in that episode for what he was doing, I actually felt for him. I was genuinely touched by the season 3 final and found his "space the teddy bear !" action hilarious. And I loved his "You want a war !? You get a war !" speech in season 5.
But I never had the impression that his actions were really questioned sometimes. It is one of my little pet obsessions but I think season 4 would have been more interesting when Garibaldi had not been simply brainwashed.
Sure there is the telepath incident in season 5, but I was waiting for something...more. There is this scene when Sheridan says while the aim of the telepaths may be a good one, they are doing it the wrong way. To which Delenn replies that that is exactly what they said about him and the civil war - and leaves the room. I was hoping for a little follow up to this but as far as I remember, there is not a hint of a disagreement between the both in the next episode. Or maybe my memory is playing a trick on me again.
Concerning the death scene : I actually noticed it the first time that G'Kar was almost saying nothing.
And it such a great idea to have that scene placed in the show where it is. It's not only quite in the middle, it's the next time we see them both together after Dust to Dust if I remember correctly.
And here comes a strange comparison : I recently read The unbearable Lightness of Being. And there was this sentence about Karenin's death that reminded me of Londo and G'Kar's death scene (don't worry, I usually do not run around interpreting B5 into everything, it is really just this sentence). Very roughly translated it goes like this "Then he (Tomas) understood that he could give the dog (Karenin) a privilege a human would never experience : death would come to him in the form of a loved one". I realized upon reading this once more why I find Londo's and G'Kar's death scene so touching.
(to be continued in the next comment)
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-09-01 02:55 am (UTC)In season 5, however, he's made somewhat less of a Messiah and more human again. For starters, overriding Lochley's judgment on the telepath matter and then leaving her to deal with the results is not exactly the right thing to do. Moreover, instead of overwhelming everyone in the council into following him by sheer charisma, as he does in season 4's The Summoning, he can't stop them from going to war this time around and might as well be talking to walls. (Which is more realistic.)
Lastly, Lyta going Dark Phoenix has a lot to do with the way the others, most mostly Sheridan treated her in both season 4 and 5, using her as a convenient tool when necessary and otherwise ignoring her. It was Sheridan, not anyone else, who threatened to turn Lyta over to Psi Corps if she didn't obey him in Epiphanies, and in season 5 he gets the bill for that.
All this being said, I think the basic problem with Sheridan in the later seasons is this: his personal arc ends with the season 3 finale. After this, he has no more development to go through. He has put Anna and his grief for her behind him, he has committed to Delenn and she to him, he has made the big decision to go against Earth government, and he has offered his life as sacrifice. Those were the big dilemmas and decisions Sheridan had to make. In season 4 and 5, by contrast, he remains basically static. And on a show where everyone else, not just Londo and G'Kar but also the humans - think Garibaldi - is developing right till the end, that bugs.
(Delenn, by contrast, has some more development in season 4 and 5. In 4, she has the confrontation with her past in the Earth/Minbari war, and then there is the Minbari civil war partly resulting from her actions (i.e. her breaking up the Grey Council in season 2). As opposed to the Earth Civil War, where Sheridan is squarely in the right, the Minbari Civil War is a somewhat trickier affair, and solved by Delenn's alliance with Neroon, her willingness to die in the Starfire Wheel and his willingness to replace her. In season 5, Delenn has the relationship with Lennier which is far more ambigiuous than it looks like.)
because I developed this slightly stupid obsession that I want to make a Londo-vid.
Nothing stupid about it - please, do it! I so want to see one. Thanks to
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-09-01 12:00 pm (UTC)I think you're pretty much spot on with the lack of character development. I have never really considered that before.
Vids : I only know the B5 vids from this (http://www.green-sector.de/babylon5.php) site. I think they are very well done but I am not a big Sheridan/Delenn fan so I was not that moved. The Shadow vid, however, is excellent and one of the best vids I've ever seen.
My biggest personal problem with my own vid is that the song I want to use is performed by a woman but the pov is supposed to be Londo's. It feels a little awkward but I since I have no real experience in that matter I do not know how bad it is when singer gender and character gender do not match. Not that I am going to stop now as I have already about 60% planned out and I don't know when I will find such beautiful lyrics again, but with you being the Londo expert in residence : do you think it's that a terrible problem ? I'm not sure but I have the suspicion that Londo would not mind that much to have a beautiful young lady singing a song about him ;-).
Re: Hello there! Answers, part I
Date: 2004-09-01 12:31 pm (UTC)I've watched quite a lot of vids in various fandoms by now, vids concentrating on female characters, male characters, or ensembles, and trust me, the gender of the singer rarely matched. What's more important is whether the song and the pictures do. (One of the best vids concentrating on Connor - from Angel - uses a song sung by a female singer.)
And no, Londo wouldn't mind.*g*
Answers, Part II
Date: 2004-08-29 12:10 pm (UTC)G'Kar was very lucky three times on the show (though he wouldn't have thought so at the time): 1) By Morden not choosing him, 2) by Emperor Turhan having his heart attack (because if that hadn't happened, G'Kar would have killed Turhan, and if the Centauri Emperor had died at the hands of the Narn Ambassador while on a mission of peace, you can bet that not only the Narn/Centauri war would have ensued but also that Sheridan & Co. would not have sympathized with the Narn; the blood of millions would have been on G'Kar's hands, not on Londo's), 3) by Kosh choosing to intervene via vision in Dust to Dust. Now it's arguable whether or not G'Kar would have stopped his assault on his own, but if he hadn't, it would have ended with him and Londo in a coma or dead according to Dr. Franklin and Bester. Which would have meant no peace between Narn and Centauri in season 4, or ever.
Speaking of slash, I interpreted "Confessions of a Biographer" as a delightful take on the slash-fandom.
Oh, absolutely. Many a slasher arguing why the love of her OTP in question is absolutely canon would have recognised Luc's conclusions at once.*g*
Mind you, like yourself, I can see it as well. One of the many great things about Londo's and G'Kar's relationship is that it really doesn't matter whether there was a sexual dimension eventually or not - the intensity would have been the same in either case.
Londo can be a pretty demanding muse, yes. But writing him for
Sandman: technically, there are not many spoilers in the sense of plot developments within the Sandman saga in Presences. Londo gets to meet each of the seven Endless, but each encounter says something about a stage of his life (focusing on what the Endless in question personifies) - it doesn't tell what that most dysfunctional of families was up to in the Sandman universe. If I were you, though, I'd wait until I had finished Preludes and Nocturnes at least, because then you'll have met Death in addition to Dream. The next Sandman volume, A Doll's House introduces Desire and Despair, but you won't meet Delirium until book No.4, Seasons of Mist, and Destruction doesn't show up until Fables and Reflections. Given that as I said there are no real spoilers for Sandman, I don't think you'll have to wait that long. It will actually be interesting to see whether it works for you despite not having encountered the Endless in question in canon yourself.
Res is around fifteen in human years, yes.*g*
Re: Answers, Part II
Date: 2004-08-30 02:32 am (UTC)Mind you, like yourself, I can see it as well.
It's hard to ignore with jokes like "so, how long have they been married ?" ;-).
One of the many great things about Londo's and G'Kar's relationship is that it really doesn't matter whether there was a sexual dimension eventually or not - the intensity would have been the same in either case.
Exactly. I love pairings best where the sexual dimension is only an addition, but not the main point.
Concerning Sandman : I'll finish Preludes&Nocturnes then and maybe read some A Doll's House before reading the corssover. I also remember seeing an Angel/Sandman crossover from you at fanfiction.net. Does the same situation concerning spoilers apply to that story, too ?
Re: Answers, Part II
Date: 2004-08-30 11:31 am (UTC)True, and similarily, if G'Kar had never been captured (and assuming Londo and Vir would have still managed to kill Cartagia somehow), Londo would not have had an incentive to free Narn. I really don't think he would have done so on his own, and freeing Narn, keeping his promise to G'Kar despite the obvious disadvantages at home, was an important step on Londo's way to redemption. G'Kar and Londo really are both essential for each other's development and just couldn't be replaced by anyone else.
I also remember seeing an Angel/Sandman crossover from you at fanfiction.net. Does the same situation concerning spoilers apply to that story, too ?
Alas, no. Though not a single Endless shows up, my Angel/Sandman crossover contains the most crucial spoilers for Dream's storyarc and what will happen to him in the climactic volume of the Sandman saga, The Kindly Ones. The Sandman characters who do show up are essential to these events, especially the character who aside from Connor is my other main character for the story. So if you don't want to be spoiled for Sandman, don't read Ouroboros until you've read the entire Sandman saga.
Re: Answers, Part II
Date: 2004-08-31 04:04 am (UTC)My inner art geek is most pleased.
G'Kar and Londo really are both essential for each other's development and just couldn't be replaced by anyone else.
Yes, and that is one of the many reasons I love them so much. They work like a yinyang to put it bluntly ;-). As you said, it is amazing how ambitious the show is planned and to me it is most visible with these two characters. Of course it is fun to just "let loose" the characters and "see what happens" as other shows normally do, but I remain still most fascinated of how neatly the relationship of this two has been developed.
Concerning Sandman : thanks for the warning. I will probably read it once I'm finished with Sandman.
oh, and I completely forgot:
Date: 2004-08-30 02:19 am (UTC)We did the next best thing and played it out some months ago on t_m. You can find the result here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/timov_of_algul/2158.html).
Re: oh, and I completely forgot:
Date: 2004-08-31 02:01 am (UTC)