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selenakGot a new beautiful icon of the SpyParents from Godot G'Kar ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sabine101. You know, I'm really looking forward to see what Ultimate Drew and Jeff Bell are going to make of the Alias characters, and hope for at least one great flashback ep from Drew Goddard, concentrating on the Jack & Sloane backstory. And/or Jack/Irina flashbacks.
Speaking of writers: it seems in Potterdom 'shipper wars have momentarily been suspended by pro/con JKR wars. You know, if I had a penny for every time in every fandom I've read statements to the effect of "creator X/writers Y and Z/all of the above don't deserve this character, fanfic is so much better, they were just lucky when stumbling across the character/the universe" I'd be a millionaire. It still manages to tick me off. I like fanfic as much as the next fangirl. I don't always agree with all the decisions TPTB in question make in several of my fandoms. But this sense of entitlement, this idea that "the fans" (by which the poster usually just means "me and my friends who have the same preferences I have", or just "me") are more "deserving" of a fictional universe and one or several characters in it then the writer(s) who thought it up and put years of their lives in it just strikes me as incredibly presumptious.
In the specific JKR case, this post rather sums up my own thoughts on the matter. But since I couldn't care less about Draco, or who ends up with whom romantically, I admit this is pretty easy to me. So, let's get specific about some characters I did care about and whose storylines did not go the way I had originally hoped in other fandoms instead. Not to beat a deceased equine, but I thought, and still think, the DS9 writers made a mistake when turning Dukat into a one-dimensional demented villain in the middle of the sixth season. However, this does not mean it ruined the show for me - I didn't watch DS9 for Dukat, I loved many, if not all of the characters, appreciated their stories, and am for the most part very content with their ultimate fate - nor that I think that Ira Behr & Co. had it in for Dukat, hated the character, didn't appreciate him enough, didn't deserve him, etc. (My own theory is that they needed a physical oponent for Sisko to battle in the finale, since at that point it was already appearant that Sisko wouldn't be instrumental or even needed in the resolution of the Dominion and Cardassia storylines - that was for Odo, Kira and Garak.) They made a decision. I don't think it was the right one, but it was theirs to make. Not mine. It certainly did not diminish their great contribution to the ST universe, or make DS9 less of a show.
While we're talking Star Trek:alara_r has posted a great essay about Q. Which gave me a TNG nostalgia, though my experience of becoming a fan was vastly different from Alara's. I had watched TOS as a child and liked it a lot, had loved STII and III in the cinema, but I didn't feel any original fan "how dare they?" indignation when TNG began to air. The very shaky first season didn't entrance me, but I liked enough of what I saw to stick around for season 2, and was very glad I did. (Most people date TNG getting better from Best of both Worlds, the season 3 cliffhanger, but to me, season 2 was when I started to fall in love.) It's become fashionable to denigrate TNG these days, as if that was the only way to praise other tv shows, whether it's Trek's own DS9, or Farscape, or Babylon 5, or Firefly. And I don't understand the necessity of it. kathyh recently told me she thinks TNG ushered in a golden age of genre tv, and that is how I remember it as well. It's not my greatest love within the Trekverse (that would be DS9). And DS9 just barely falls behind B5 in my overall sci-fi love (though it's a close match). But that doesn't mean I don't have fond TNG memories.
What connects this to the earlier subject? Well, back in the day, when TNG was a fledgling show, it changed head producers in the second season. From the second season onwards, a young turk named Rick Berman was in charge, replacing Gene Roddenberry who was still around till his death, but only in a consulting fashion. That would be the same Rick Berman who is regularly reviled ever since Voyager, together with the second boo-hiss-evoking guy in Trek fandom, Brannon Braga. Who also came on board during those early TNG years.
It's seventeen years of uninterrupted work later, and I do think Berman & Braga are exhausted, and should let it go. Not surprising, considering the timespan. Still, this doesn't negate in any way that it was Berman who, as head producer of TNG, found and hired such talents as Ira Behr, Ronald D. Moore, Richard Manning, Hans Beimler, Peter Allan Fields, all of whom were going to be instrumental in shaping DS9 and honed their craft during those earlier TNG years under his aegis. Family, the episode following the Borg two-parter Best of Both Worlds, and arguably the first Trek episode ever to break the reset button rule - i.e. it followed up on traumatic events which happened to a character earlier, in this case Picard's assimilation by the Borg, was written by Ron Moore. Reunion, the first Trek episode which plays a "character put between Federation ethics and own ethical code" a scenario and lets the "own ethical code" win (Worf kills Duras because Duras murdered his lover K'ehleyr against Picard's strict orders) was written by Moore, and, wait for it, Brannon Braga. The Drumhead, aka Trek does MacCarthyism and presents not just our guest star of the week, but several of our regulars subsceptible to it? Written by Jeri Taylor, who went on to co-create the least favourite child of Trekdom, Voyager. Each time I read another rant on how Berman & Braga "ruined" Star Trek, I remember that they gave me a show I cherished. As I said, I think they should let it go now, and do what Moore and Manning did, who (after DS9) moved on to create/co-create the new version of Battlestar Galactica and Farscape respectively. Doesn't mean I've forgotten their past achievments, or think they never "deserved" the characters/ the ST universe.
Come to think of it, Babylon 5's JMS seems to be the only creator/headwriter of a universe who didn't get the "doesn't deserve/doesn't understand the characters as we do/ruined" treatment from the fandom at one point or the other. I mean, of course he got critisized for several things, but not in those particular terms. Though, I wait, I dimly recall some Marcus fan or the other complaining that Marcus (with or without Ivanova) was the best part of the show, and that his death "ruined" it, but that wasn't a majority opinion or huge controversy. (For the record, I might be prejudiced because to me Marcus was one of the least interesting characters, but I think that even if I had loved him to bits, I wouldn't have assumed he had any important role in the overall storyarcs - you could remove Marcus entirely from season 3 and 4, and those would not be changed except for Ivanova's fate at the end of 4 - , and B5 was all about the arcs.)
While we're talking B5:kangeiko has written a great G'Kar ficlet. And I coaxed andrastewhite into writing a G'Kar essay for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
idol_reflection, so my Londo essay and hobsonphile's Vir essay won't be alone there anymore.*g*
sabine101. You know, I'm really looking forward to see what Ultimate Drew and Jeff Bell are going to make of the Alias characters, and hope for at least one great flashback ep from Drew Goddard, concentrating on the Jack & Sloane backstory. And/or Jack/Irina flashbacks. Speaking of writers: it seems in Potterdom 'shipper wars have momentarily been suspended by pro/con JKR wars. You know, if I had a penny for every time in every fandom I've read statements to the effect of "creator X/writers Y and Z/all of the above don't deserve this character, fanfic is so much better, they were just lucky when stumbling across the character/the universe" I'd be a millionaire. It still manages to tick me off. I like fanfic as much as the next fangirl. I don't always agree with all the decisions TPTB in question make in several of my fandoms. But this sense of entitlement, this idea that "the fans" (by which the poster usually just means "me and my friends who have the same preferences I have", or just "me") are more "deserving" of a fictional universe and one or several characters in it then the writer(s) who thought it up and put years of their lives in it just strikes me as incredibly presumptious.
In the specific JKR case, this post rather sums up my own thoughts on the matter. But since I couldn't care less about Draco, or who ends up with whom romantically, I admit this is pretty easy to me. So, let's get specific about some characters I did care about and whose storylines did not go the way I had originally hoped in other fandoms instead. Not to beat a deceased equine, but I thought, and still think, the DS9 writers made a mistake when turning Dukat into a one-dimensional demented villain in the middle of the sixth season. However, this does not mean it ruined the show for me - I didn't watch DS9 for Dukat, I loved many, if not all of the characters, appreciated their stories, and am for the most part very content with their ultimate fate - nor that I think that Ira Behr & Co. had it in for Dukat, hated the character, didn't appreciate him enough, didn't deserve him, etc. (My own theory is that they needed a physical oponent for Sisko to battle in the finale, since at that point it was already appearant that Sisko wouldn't be instrumental or even needed in the resolution of the Dominion and Cardassia storylines - that was for Odo, Kira and Garak.) They made a decision. I don't think it was the right one, but it was theirs to make. Not mine. It certainly did not diminish their great contribution to the ST universe, or make DS9 less of a show.
While we're talking Star Trek:
alara_r has posted a great essay about Q. Which gave me a TNG nostalgia, though my experience of becoming a fan was vastly different from Alara's. I had watched TOS as a child and liked it a lot, had loved STII and III in the cinema, but I didn't feel any original fan "how dare they?" indignation when TNG began to air. The very shaky first season didn't entrance me, but I liked enough of what I saw to stick around for season 2, and was very glad I did. (Most people date TNG getting better from Best of both Worlds, the season 3 cliffhanger, but to me, season 2 was when I started to fall in love.) It's become fashionable to denigrate TNG these days, as if that was the only way to praise other tv shows, whether it's Trek's own DS9, or Farscape, or Babylon 5, or Firefly. And I don't understand the necessity of it. kathyh recently told me she thinks TNG ushered in a golden age of genre tv, and that is how I remember it as well. It's not my greatest love within the Trekverse (that would be DS9). And DS9 just barely falls behind B5 in my overall sci-fi love (though it's a close match). But that doesn't mean I don't have fond TNG memories. What connects this to the earlier subject? Well, back in the day, when TNG was a fledgling show, it changed head producers in the second season. From the second season onwards, a young turk named Rick Berman was in charge, replacing Gene Roddenberry who was still around till his death, but only in a consulting fashion. That would be the same Rick Berman who is regularly reviled ever since Voyager, together with the second boo-hiss-evoking guy in Trek fandom, Brannon Braga. Who also came on board during those early TNG years.
It's seventeen years of uninterrupted work later, and I do think Berman & Braga are exhausted, and should let it go. Not surprising, considering the timespan. Still, this doesn't negate in any way that it was Berman who, as head producer of TNG, found and hired such talents as Ira Behr, Ronald D. Moore, Richard Manning, Hans Beimler, Peter Allan Fields, all of whom were going to be instrumental in shaping DS9 and honed their craft during those earlier TNG years under his aegis. Family, the episode following the Borg two-parter Best of Both Worlds, and arguably the first Trek episode ever to break the reset button rule - i.e. it followed up on traumatic events which happened to a character earlier, in this case Picard's assimilation by the Borg, was written by Ron Moore. Reunion, the first Trek episode which plays a "character put between Federation ethics and own ethical code" a scenario and lets the "own ethical code" win (Worf kills Duras because Duras murdered his lover K'ehleyr against Picard's strict orders) was written by Moore, and, wait for it, Brannon Braga. The Drumhead, aka Trek does MacCarthyism and presents not just our guest star of the week, but several of our regulars subsceptible to it? Written by Jeri Taylor, who went on to co-create the least favourite child of Trekdom, Voyager. Each time I read another rant on how Berman & Braga "ruined" Star Trek, I remember that they gave me a show I cherished. As I said, I think they should let it go now, and do what Moore and Manning did, who (after DS9) moved on to create/co-create the new version of Battlestar Galactica and Farscape respectively. Doesn't mean I've forgotten their past achievments, or think they never "deserved" the characters/ the ST universe.
Come to think of it, Babylon 5's JMS seems to be the only creator/headwriter of a universe who didn't get the "doesn't deserve/doesn't understand the characters as we do/ruined" treatment from the fandom at one point or the other. I mean, of course he got critisized for several things, but not in those particular terms. Though, I wait, I dimly recall some Marcus fan or the other complaining that Marcus (with or without Ivanova) was the best part of the show, and that his death "ruined" it, but that wasn't a majority opinion or huge controversy. (For the record, I might be prejudiced because to me Marcus was one of the least interesting characters, but I think that even if I had loved him to bits, I wouldn't have assumed he had any important role in the overall storyarcs - you could remove Marcus entirely from season 3 and 4, and those would not be changed except for Ivanova's fate at the end of 4 - , and B5 was all about the arcs.)
While we're talking B5:
kangeiko has written a great G'Kar ficlet. And I coaxed andrastewhite into writing a G'Kar essay for idol_reflection, so my Londo essay and hobsonphile's Vir essay won't be alone there anymore.*g*
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no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 07:48 am (UTC)Hear, hear. My reaction is usually, "You wouldn't have these characters without the creator," and I've had fans reply that the creator simply stumbled over a story that was "meant to be" and the creator didn't actually have anything to do with it. Worse, I've heard it in more than one fandom.
Funny to hear you mention TNG -- I was heavily doing the convention scene at that point and, like you, I'd enjoyed TOS as child, enjoyed most of the movies, and was pleased about a new series. The amount of crap I heard people handing out about anyone who didn't despise TNG wasn't a "true fan" was amazing. I'd done a TNG uniform for cons (mainly because I was at a really good weight) and more than once I found myself in arguments where I had to point out that I'd actually been around fandom a very long time and wasn't a Johnny-come-lately.
And I remember when we were glad to get Rick Berman and Ron Moore on TNG because a lot of us weren't happy about the direction Roddenberry (or his lawyer, whom it was said was actually running things first season). Now, they're the villains.
A friend once said fights in academia are so intense because there's really so little at stake. The same could be said for fandom.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:16 am (UTC)Oh yes, I remember that. The days of "there can only be one true Star Trek". I didn't get that, either. I think the point where you noticed that the fannish pendulum swung the other way was when ST V flopped and William Shatner blamed TNG (in its fourth or fifth season, I think) for being on the air and taking away ST fan attention. A lot of people then said "well, but TNG is good, and this movie was crap".
And I remember when we were glad to get Rick Berman and Ron Moore on TNG because a lot of us weren't happy about the direction Roddenberry (or his lawyer, whom it was said was actually running things first season). Now, they're the villains.
Exactly. Berman might be at the point now where Roddenberry was then, but how does this negate his achievements? Arguably TNG wouldn't have survived its second or third season if Berman hadn't taken over and gotten all the other writers together, and then we wouldn't have gotten DS9, and it's questionable whether the networks would have greenlighted other genre shows.
Oh, and:
I've had fans reply that the creator simply stumbled over a story that was "meant to be" and the creator didn't actually have anything to do with it. Worse, I've heard it in more than one fandom.
Me too. It irritates me beyond measure every time.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:15 am (UTC)JMS seems to be the only creator/headwriter of a universe who didn't get the "doesn't deserve/doesn't understand the characters as we do/ruined" treatment from the fandom at one point or the other
One should never suggest that anything is too bizarre to happen in fandom. Around late-S3/early-S4 a tiny faction of anti-JMS B5 fans did emerge, centered around a now-defunct website calle saveB5.com. As I recall they accused JMS of megalomania, and were big Season One fans who didn't like the emergence of the more operatic grand arcs. I think they wanted B5 to have remained a drama of day-to-day politics, sort of like a far-future West Wing (although of course that didn't exist at that point). They also really hated Marcus ;-). None of the other fans really knew how to respond to this, and I think some more paranoid types actually accused them at one point of being incognito Trekkers trying to destabilise the B5 fandom.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:37 am (UTC)What I've read so far of JMS' Spiderman run, I've liked, and thought his Mary Jane was far more sympathetic than the one from the movies, who did annoy me somewhat in Spiderman 2. But as far as his current efforts in comics are concerned, I love Supreme Powers best - that's really not just good but great, downright breathtaking. Rising Stars is good but has one drawback - the main character is called John Simon. You know what that means.*g* (Also, he's a byronic hero. I don't think JMS can pull off those. See also: the unfortunately named Byron. It's tricky anyway to do this today because the byronic hero has become such a cliché, but not impossible. Neil Gaiman did it with Morpheus/Dream in Sandman.)
Midnight Nation is also good but not excellent. Reminds me a bit of Garibaldi-centric B5 episodes.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 08:29 am (UTC)Probably, and those did exist, but they weren't the be-all and end-all. I just recalled Half A Life (teleplay by Peter Allan Fields, who went on to DS9), which while nowhere as radical as Believers did deal with euthanasia. (That was one of the few "serious" pre-DS9 Lwaxana Troi episodes, in which she fell in love with a man who was (I might be fudgy on the details, it's been a long while) sick and set on committing suicide, which was normal for his society. The edifying liberal thing would have been for Lwaxana to convince him he shouldn't do that, but instead she was the one who got convinced that it was his decision.
I'd also point to Chain of Command which, as you pointed out a while back, actually dealt with torture in a far more pointed manner than a certain much-ballyhooed B5 episode.
Yes. It also broke the ST pattern of having a replacement Captain or Admiral come on board, taking command and botching it up so Our Heroes could show him how it's done, because Picard's temporary replacement might have been none that likeable, but he got the job done and didn't screw up. So lo and behold, for the first time we got competent Starfleet officers outside of the Enterprise who didn't agree with Our Heroes and were still right. DS9 didn't invent them. (And, err, B5 had a problem with that idea even in the very first season - see Eyes.)
One should never suggest that anything is too bizarre to happen in fandom.
You're right. I should have known better!
Around late-S3/early-S4 a tiny faction of anti-JMS B5 fans did emerge, centered around a now-defunct website calle saveB5.com. As I recall they accused JMS of megalomania, and were big Season One fans who didn't like the emergence of the more operatic grand arcs.
Now that you mention it... I didn't know about them, but I do know a B5 fan who only has the first season DVDs and watched the rest of the show only once, when it was broadcast. But in this particular fan's case, it might be because she's a big Sinclair fan and Sinclair/Garibaldi 'shipper.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 09:05 am (UTC)that is all.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 09:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-13 11:32 pm (UTC)It probably strikes me as even more bizarre in the Harry Potter case because on a TV show, you have a writer collaboration which does allow for several authors seeing the same character somewhat differently, though they probably agree on a broad general line provided by the headwriter. But in a novel? There is one single author. Love Rowling, hate Rowling, I don't care, but to assume that she dosn't "know" her characters/universe as well as "the fans" do is incredibly presumptuos.
Back to TNG: it's also a great example of how writers and actors can collaborate and evolve a character. Picard as written in season 2 might have been boring, but Patrick Stewart never phoned his lines in, he always took what he got seriously, and so the writers got inspired to give him more to do, and make the character more complex. I remember watching Sarek, starting with a pleasant nostalgia for Mark Lenard's sake, and being blown away by what Stewart did during the mindmeld sequence...
Since you mentioned BSG...
Date: 2004-12-14 02:54 pm (UTC)I liked...
Date: 2004-12-14 10:02 pm (UTC)Re: I liked...
Date: 2004-12-15 02:55 am (UTC)Re: I liked...
Date: 2004-12-15 04:58 am (UTC)