Star Trek: Discovery 1.12.
Jan. 22nd, 2018 11:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakZOMG!
First of all, the one thing I’m not happy with which I bet 99% of fandom is happy with, if it is what it appears to be, to wit: dead Voq, living Tyler. I mean, I can see the karmic retribution of L’Rell, whose idea this whole thing was, being able to save only one of them and having to save not Voq, whom she loves, but Tyler, who so far was simply a mask based on a dead prisoner to her. However, in terms of narrative interest, Voq having to deal with Tyler’s memories and spillover emotions and stuck in a human body, no possiblity of ever becoming physically Klingon again, would be a much more interesting character to me than Tyler free of Voq’s personality, memories etc. That just feels like a meagre pay off to this entire storyline. And yet L’Rell having her Voq flashbacks and voicing the Klingon death cry pretty much feels like at least she thinks she’s sending Voq to the afterlife. I suppose I can still hope for Tyler actually retaining Voq’s memories, emotions etc. even if he’s Tyler again and having to deal with those? (My small basis of hope for this is that he says „my brothers ,my sisters“ in English after L’Rell thinks she’s sent Voq to his death.)
Now, on to everything else. You know, between Voq & Co. eating Georgiou Prime’s body and MirrorGeorgiu serving Kelpien at dinner, I think it’s save to say producing Hannibal has left lingering effects on Bryan Fuller. Even if he’s no longer on the show. (Discovery, that is.) Good lord. Otoh, it’s a drastic way of signalling that great as MirrorGeorgiu looks in her Mirroverse uniform and as much as she’s into Michael Burnham (any Michael Burnham), she really is evil to the core. (As to whether or not she’s actually „honorable“ in the sense that she’ll keep her word, only the fact that it would be an absolute non-surprise for her not to makes me wonder whether she will. The MirrorGeorgiu & Michael scenes filled in some backstory (and how!), among other things how Mirroverse Burnham was raised (not by Sarek and Amanda but by Georgiu, as some people had suspected), that at least the Emperor and presumably other elite staff (including Lorca) knew about the existence of the Primeverse but all this otherwise is still classified and a big secret in the Mirrorverse, and, of course, the big one, re: Lorca.
At this point there was no other explanation left, and to give credit where due: the show even managed to a) make the truth about the thing with Lorca’s eyes a key reveal point and b) came up with a Watsonian explanation for the moody lighting on the Mirroverse ships to do so. I salute you, PTB. Also, I’m back to my original episode 3 or so guess that we’ll end the season with either Saru or Michael in command of the Discovery, though I don’t think we’ll end it with Lorca dead. Or, for that matter, with Lorca Prime being found and restored. Why not the later? Because we don’t know Lorca Prime. We have no reason to care about Lorca Prime (either positively or negatively). Introducing him at this late hour would be – well, okay, there’s the Harry Potter precedent of introducing the real Mad-Eye Moody at the very end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and keeping him around until the last volume as a bit player, but you know, I was never invested in the real Mad-Eye Moody over at HP, either.
So, what I’m hoping for is for Lorca Prime to be dead, and for this Lorca to be the only Lorca around. Emphasis on „around“, because I don’t want him to be killed off at the end of the season. Maybe, as I speculated (though for other reasons) early in the show’s season, as Michael’s future arch nemesis whom she can’t entirely hate and who knows her a bit too well. (Especially since she doesn’t have to be conflicted about Tyler anymore, if he’s Tyler now.) Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
On to Paul Stamets. The entire time he was with his Mirror counterpart, I mentally yelled „don’t trust him“, so it was a relief when they separated and Hugh Culber later confirmed that opinion. My money is currently on MirrorStamets being one of Lorca’s allies (which is why Lorca knew he had to get Prime Stamets on board Discovery, I think it was mentioned in 1.03 that this was personal recruitment/drafting), but with an eye to the throne for himself as a personal endgame. (Either Stamets being underestimated by Lorca would fit.) Our Stamets having the chance to talk to Hugh and be with him but also to leave in order to save everyone may have been predictable in terms of how encounters with dead loved ones go, but it was very movingly executed. And with Hugh saying „no one is really gone“, I’m still not giving up hope for some type of resurrection by the end of the season, though I have no idea how, since Stamets seems to have emerged from his coma without megalomania and superpowers. Oh, and the mycellium being poisoned due to MirrorStamets‘ actions brings up a new possible explanation as to why in future Trek using the Spore Drive is not an option anymore. Though then again, I doubt this will be permanent, because otherwise what would be Stamets‘ job on board Discovery once we’re back in the Primeverse? He’s a mushroom expert, so mushrooms presumably will continue to play a role for a while yet.
Trivia: leave it to the Discovery writers to say „your ships can be canon, fandom, if you’re into (emotional) incest!“ MirrorGeorgiou raised Michael as her daughter but, as she informs her, MirrorBurnham also saw Lorca as her father figure until he seduced her. Oh, and it just occurred to me: with the new info that Lorca and MirrorBurnham were in cahoots and in the attempted coup together, do we even have a guarantee that the other official info our heroes got from the rebel database, that MirrorBurnham is dead, is correct? About the only reason I can see is that Lorca would not have needed PrimeMicheal if he still had MirrorBurnham in order to gain access to the palace and the Emperor.
In conclusion: bring on next week!
First of all, the one thing I’m not happy with which I bet 99% of fandom is happy with, if it is what it appears to be, to wit: dead Voq, living Tyler. I mean, I can see the karmic retribution of L’Rell, whose idea this whole thing was, being able to save only one of them and having to save not Voq, whom she loves, but Tyler, who so far was simply a mask based on a dead prisoner to her. However, in terms of narrative interest, Voq having to deal with Tyler’s memories and spillover emotions and stuck in a human body, no possiblity of ever becoming physically Klingon again, would be a much more interesting character to me than Tyler free of Voq’s personality, memories etc. That just feels like a meagre pay off to this entire storyline. And yet L’Rell having her Voq flashbacks and voicing the Klingon death cry pretty much feels like at least she thinks she’s sending Voq to the afterlife. I suppose I can still hope for Tyler actually retaining Voq’s memories, emotions etc. even if he’s Tyler again and having to deal with those? (My small basis of hope for this is that he says „my brothers ,my sisters“ in English after L’Rell thinks she’s sent Voq to his death.)
Now, on to everything else. You know, between Voq & Co. eating Georgiou Prime’s body and MirrorGeorgiu serving Kelpien at dinner, I think it’s save to say producing Hannibal has left lingering effects on Bryan Fuller. Even if he’s no longer on the show. (Discovery, that is.) Good lord. Otoh, it’s a drastic way of signalling that great as MirrorGeorgiu looks in her Mirroverse uniform and as much as she’s into Michael Burnham (any Michael Burnham), she really is evil to the core. (As to whether or not she’s actually „honorable“ in the sense that she’ll keep her word, only the fact that it would be an absolute non-surprise for her not to makes me wonder whether she will. The MirrorGeorgiu & Michael scenes filled in some backstory (and how!), among other things how Mirroverse Burnham was raised (not by Sarek and Amanda but by Georgiu, as some people had suspected), that at least the Emperor and presumably other elite staff (including Lorca) knew about the existence of the Primeverse but all this otherwise is still classified and a big secret in the Mirrorverse, and, of course, the big one, re: Lorca.
At this point there was no other explanation left, and to give credit where due: the show even managed to a) make the truth about the thing with Lorca’s eyes a key reveal point and b) came up with a Watsonian explanation for the moody lighting on the Mirroverse ships to do so. I salute you, PTB. Also, I’m back to my original episode 3 or so guess that we’ll end the season with either Saru or Michael in command of the Discovery, though I don’t think we’ll end it with Lorca dead. Or, for that matter, with Lorca Prime being found and restored. Why not the later? Because we don’t know Lorca Prime. We have no reason to care about Lorca Prime (either positively or negatively). Introducing him at this late hour would be – well, okay, there’s the Harry Potter precedent of introducing the real Mad-Eye Moody at the very end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and keeping him around until the last volume as a bit player, but you know, I was never invested in the real Mad-Eye Moody over at HP, either.
So, what I’m hoping for is for Lorca Prime to be dead, and for this Lorca to be the only Lorca around. Emphasis on „around“, because I don’t want him to be killed off at the end of the season. Maybe, as I speculated (though for other reasons) early in the show’s season, as Michael’s future arch nemesis whom she can’t entirely hate and who knows her a bit too well. (Especially since she doesn’t have to be conflicted about Tyler anymore, if he’s Tyler now.) Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
On to Paul Stamets. The entire time he was with his Mirror counterpart, I mentally yelled „don’t trust him“, so it was a relief when they separated and Hugh Culber later confirmed that opinion. My money is currently on MirrorStamets being one of Lorca’s allies (which is why Lorca knew he had to get Prime Stamets on board Discovery, I think it was mentioned in 1.03 that this was personal recruitment/drafting), but with an eye to the throne for himself as a personal endgame. (Either Stamets being underestimated by Lorca would fit.) Our Stamets having the chance to talk to Hugh and be with him but also to leave in order to save everyone may have been predictable in terms of how encounters with dead loved ones go, but it was very movingly executed. And with Hugh saying „no one is really gone“, I’m still not giving up hope for some type of resurrection by the end of the season, though I have no idea how, since Stamets seems to have emerged from his coma without megalomania and superpowers. Oh, and the mycellium being poisoned due to MirrorStamets‘ actions brings up a new possible explanation as to why in future Trek using the Spore Drive is not an option anymore. Though then again, I doubt this will be permanent, because otherwise what would be Stamets‘ job on board Discovery once we’re back in the Primeverse? He’s a mushroom expert, so mushrooms presumably will continue to play a role for a while yet.
Trivia: leave it to the Discovery writers to say „your ships can be canon, fandom, if you’re into (emotional) incest!“ MirrorGeorgiou raised Michael as her daughter but, as she informs her, MirrorBurnham also saw Lorca as her father figure until he seduced her. Oh, and it just occurred to me: with the new info that Lorca and MirrorBurnham were in cahoots and in the attempted coup together, do we even have a guarantee that the other official info our heroes got from the rebel database, that MirrorBurnham is dead, is correct? About the only reason I can see is that Lorca would not have needed PrimeMicheal if he still had MirrorBurnham in order to gain access to the palace and the Emperor.
In conclusion: bring on next week!
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 11:24 am (UTC)Lorca knowing one way to cross without going mad that doesn't involve the spore drive might be key to future developments. I'm just pretty sure that whichever method he used, it won't be something he can do on his own.
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Date: 2018-01-22 02:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 02:40 pm (UTC)I've totally thought they meant to end the season with Michael staging a "mutiny" and the crew and audience being behind her this time, and her being captain, altho Saru being captain also seems possible. I'm kinda up for Lorca Prime coming back and finding out his entire life has been set on fire, by himself! but that would be just gravy.
Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
Oh, YES! I've always thought he'd escape at the end of S1 and be a continuing antagonist, too, and this would be just about perfect.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 04:01 pm (UTC)The thing is, we already know how the Human/Klingon war will end - with a cold war situation and neither side dominant until the Khitomer Accords decades later. Unless the show goes AU the way the rebootverse did, it's stuck with this, and I don't think they'll go AU that way. Which means they can't drag out the Klingon war situation forever, and if they don't keep Voq as Voq or VoqTyler around but solely as Tyler around, then there's no one on the Klingon side of things who has an emotional connection, good or bad, to our heroine and the audience anyway.
Whereas Lorca would be an ideal s2 antagonist. He knows everyone, everyone knows him. His fate isn't covered by ST continuity, which means the writers have a free hand there. And if they don't do a late season Dukat and make him want-to-destroy-the-world crazy, he could be a perfect arch nemesis for Michael. (And I really don't want to lose him as a character. He's interesting! Way more than Kol ever was, and you can only use Harry Mudd so often. And as I said, they just removed Voq-as-antagonist as an option.)
Re: Michael or Saru as Captain post s1: one reason why I'm doubtful it'll be Michael is that they surely are aiming for more than two seasons, and if she's not promoted at once, it'll feel more emotionally real. (Am still not over Reboot Kirk going from Cadet to Captain.) While I don't think the prison sentence will be reinstated anymore once they're back in the Primeverse and all is revealed to Starfleet command, going from pardoned prisoner to Captain is a bit much.
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Date: 2018-01-22 04:17 pm (UTC)OMG, YES PLEASE. Ordinarily I just don't like characters like Lorca at all, but Isaacs somehow makes him magnetic and interesting and even appealing! What is this acting talent stuff.
-- I agree that it would be awfully fast for Michael, but I think it might happen purely as an echo of how we first see her as cherished protege falling to mutineer/prisoner, she could climb back up as mutineer -- > captain. Or maybe temporary captain, and then Saru would take over. It would be more convincing if it took longer, though.
(Am still not over Reboot Kirk going from Cadet to Captain.)
LOLLLLLLL and that is why I didn't watch the reboots (well that and the Spousal Overunit going "THAT IS NOT THE ONE TRUE KIRK AND SPOCK NOPE." Original series fanboy all the way, heh).
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Date: 2018-01-22 04:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 06:39 pm (UTC)re: Jason Isaacs, clearly the casting people knew what they were doing. Even on a meta level, because while he's mainly known for villains he has played some heroic roles as well, so it wasn't a giveway as it would have been if, say, Clancy Brown is cast in anything by now.
Do you think the producers told him the truth about Lorca's origins, or did they just tell him to keep it ambigous? For example in the scene with Cornwell. After all, there's an emotional difference, I'd imagine, whether he's playing "argh, Kat could keep me grounded for the remainder of the war!" or "there goes my cover, DAMMIT!" (BTW, of course for a Mirroverse Terran serving in the military it makes perfect sense to keep a phaser under your pillow. After all, you never know when the next assassin who is after your job might be coming.)
Also, now that we know what the deal with Lorca's eyes was, I wonder whether we'll also find out why he bothered to go back for Ash Tyler when fleeing the Klingon vessel. Did he think a grateful-to-him Tyler could be useful in the future? Felt some degree of fellow prisoner sympathy? Both?
And I'm really curious about his first post reveal encounter with Michael. Will she confront him right away with the truth or will she try to play the player in order to find out more?
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Date: 2018-01-22 06:59 pm (UTC)He loved TNG too. For me it's more a visceral "whoah these are the wrong people" thing, but he LOVED both characters, so big nope.
Do you think the producers told him the truth about Lorca's origins, or did they just tell him to keep it ambigous? For example in the scene with Cornwell. After all, there's an emotional difference, I'd imagine, whether he's playing "argh, Kat could keep me grounded for the remainder of the war!" or "there goes my cover, DAMMIT!"
Oooh that's fascinating. He did say early on something like he thought Lorca was one of the great Star Trek villains, which of course wigged out some fanboys because wait, he is Captain?! (I've so enjoyed having a Bad Dad type Captain.) I'm just assuming Mirror Lorca and Burnham are dead, but who knows.
(BTW, of course for a Mirroverse Terran serving in the military it makes perfect sense to keep a phaser under your pillow. After all, you never know when the next assassin who is after your job might be coming.)
SO TRUE. Also now I'm wondering about his interactions with Saru....since Mirror!Kelpian (sp) is apparently the Dish of the Day.
And I'm really curious about his first post reveal encounter with Michael. Will she confront him right away with the truth or will she try to play the player in order to find out more?
Oh, if they go for the second version, the tension would be GREAT. Especially if Michael tells the others the truth, and that leads up to a mutiny.
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Date: 2018-01-22 08:04 pm (UTC)THEY DID. I can't find the interview right now, but it was quite a long one, and he talked about how he can't just say the words and look ambiguous, he needs to know what his character is actually thinking. And he had to explain that to get the showrunners to tell him Lorca's full story, and that's what settled him on taking the role.
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Date: 2018-01-22 10:17 pm (UTC)I have considered trying to pick up The Flash for one plotline only, which is the second-season character arc of Tom Cavanaugh's Harrison Wells, who has been described to me as kind of a prickly asshole but not actually the big bad of the first season, just his counterpart from Earth-2 who has to deal with the fact that just about everyone he meets either hates or doesn't trust him because his doppelgänger burned his reputation to the ground. I have no idea how the rest of the show is doing, but that part sounded great.
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Date: 2018-01-22 10:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 10:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 10:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 10:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 10:26 pm (UTC)I still need to see Fringe. The early reports were so uneven, I didn't seek it out, and then it took multiple levels in everything, including Leonard Nimoy. My father still talks about it as one of the best pieces of extended science fiction he's seen on a TV.
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Date: 2018-01-22 10:40 pm (UTC)HOWEVER, there are also amazing actors like Blair Brown and Jasika Nicole, and John Noble just had the part of a lifetime and blew everyone else out of the water. He would show up and be funny and tragic and heartbreaking and hilarious all in five minutes, and it was just magic. The show also started me on my Kirk Acevedo kick -- he was one of the main reasons I watched 12 Monkeys (which became a fave show). If you watch it maybe you will like Peter better than I did, he's fine in a lot of eps, I just really disliked that it was supposed to be HIS story. (I also, altho this is personal and subjective, thought he wasn't up to the acting level of everyone else, especially Noble and Torv.) It kind of starts off like the X-Files, and like that show gets a "mythology" and much more serialized, but that story never just falls apart the way XF did. Your dad's right, it's very sf, which you don't see in a lot of "sf" TV shows. I mean, it seriously considers the effects of sf concepts on the characters, and how that changes what they do, rather than just having people in an sf setting which is mostly scenery.
However, without getting super-spoilery, some plotlines also involved pregnancy and infertility and blah blah, which INFURIATED me because THAT has been on nearly every single fucking SF show I've ever seen where a woman has a significant role, and I just want male showrunners to NOT. TOUCH. IT. AGAIN. For like forty thousand years. Just NO, YOU BOYS AREN'T ALLOWED.
tl;dr would HIGHLY recommend, also with some probably super-specific but also strong caveats
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:14 pm (UTC)IT'S A COMMON AFFLICTION NO SYMPATHY.
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:14 pm (UTC)Noted and thank you!
Everyone who has ever spoken to me about the show, including my father, has strongly indicated that I will love Walter.
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:32 pm (UTC)OMG, APPARENTLY HE PLAYED BYRON
THAT IS JUST NOT FAIR
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:34 pm (UTC)OH
GIVE
ME
A
BREAK
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 11:36 pm (UTC)ALSO, THIS! https://twitter.com/jasonsfolly/status/954495877028102144
THAT IS JUST PATENTLY UNFAIR
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:39 pm (UTC)Jason Isaacs is a good argument for the existence of Twitter. And there aren't a lot of those.
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Date: 2018-01-22 11:39 pm (UTC)https://www.the-print-room.org/past-productions/autumn-winter-2017/dead-poets-live-byron-shelley/