Star Trek: Discovery 1.12.
Jan. 22nd, 2018 11:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakZOMG!
First of all, the one thing I’m not happy with which I bet 99% of fandom is happy with, if it is what it appears to be, to wit: dead Voq, living Tyler. I mean, I can see the karmic retribution of L’Rell, whose idea this whole thing was, being able to save only one of them and having to save not Voq, whom she loves, but Tyler, who so far was simply a mask based on a dead prisoner to her. However, in terms of narrative interest, Voq having to deal with Tyler’s memories and spillover emotions and stuck in a human body, no possiblity of ever becoming physically Klingon again, would be a much more interesting character to me than Tyler free of Voq’s personality, memories etc. That just feels like a meagre pay off to this entire storyline. And yet L’Rell having her Voq flashbacks and voicing the Klingon death cry pretty much feels like at least she thinks she’s sending Voq to the afterlife. I suppose I can still hope for Tyler actually retaining Voq’s memories, emotions etc. even if he’s Tyler again and having to deal with those? (My small basis of hope for this is that he says „my brothers ,my sisters“ in English after L’Rell thinks she’s sent Voq to his death.)
Now, on to everything else. You know, between Voq & Co. eating Georgiou Prime’s body and MirrorGeorgiu serving Kelpien at dinner, I think it’s save to say producing Hannibal has left lingering effects on Bryan Fuller. Even if he’s no longer on the show. (Discovery, that is.) Good lord. Otoh, it’s a drastic way of signalling that great as MirrorGeorgiu looks in her Mirroverse uniform and as much as she’s into Michael Burnham (any Michael Burnham), she really is evil to the core. (As to whether or not she’s actually „honorable“ in the sense that she’ll keep her word, only the fact that it would be an absolute non-surprise for her not to makes me wonder whether she will. The MirrorGeorgiu & Michael scenes filled in some backstory (and how!), among other things how Mirroverse Burnham was raised (not by Sarek and Amanda but by Georgiu, as some people had suspected), that at least the Emperor and presumably other elite staff (including Lorca) knew about the existence of the Primeverse but all this otherwise is still classified and a big secret in the Mirrorverse, and, of course, the big one, re: Lorca.
At this point there was no other explanation left, and to give credit where due: the show even managed to a) make the truth about the thing with Lorca’s eyes a key reveal point and b) came up with a Watsonian explanation for the moody lighting on the Mirroverse ships to do so. I salute you, PTB. Also, I’m back to my original episode 3 or so guess that we’ll end the season with either Saru or Michael in command of the Discovery, though I don’t think we’ll end it with Lorca dead. Or, for that matter, with Lorca Prime being found and restored. Why not the later? Because we don’t know Lorca Prime. We have no reason to care about Lorca Prime (either positively or negatively). Introducing him at this late hour would be – well, okay, there’s the Harry Potter precedent of introducing the real Mad-Eye Moody at the very end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and keeping him around until the last volume as a bit player, but you know, I was never invested in the real Mad-Eye Moody over at HP, either.
So, what I’m hoping for is for Lorca Prime to be dead, and for this Lorca to be the only Lorca around. Emphasis on „around“, because I don’t want him to be killed off at the end of the season. Maybe, as I speculated (though for other reasons) early in the show’s season, as Michael’s future arch nemesis whom she can’t entirely hate and who knows her a bit too well. (Especially since she doesn’t have to be conflicted about Tyler anymore, if he’s Tyler now.) Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
On to Paul Stamets. The entire time he was with his Mirror counterpart, I mentally yelled „don’t trust him“, so it was a relief when they separated and Hugh Culber later confirmed that opinion. My money is currently on MirrorStamets being one of Lorca’s allies (which is why Lorca knew he had to get Prime Stamets on board Discovery, I think it was mentioned in 1.03 that this was personal recruitment/drafting), but with an eye to the throne for himself as a personal endgame. (Either Stamets being underestimated by Lorca would fit.) Our Stamets having the chance to talk to Hugh and be with him but also to leave in order to save everyone may have been predictable in terms of how encounters with dead loved ones go, but it was very movingly executed. And with Hugh saying „no one is really gone“, I’m still not giving up hope for some type of resurrection by the end of the season, though I have no idea how, since Stamets seems to have emerged from his coma without megalomania and superpowers. Oh, and the mycellium being poisoned due to MirrorStamets‘ actions brings up a new possible explanation as to why in future Trek using the Spore Drive is not an option anymore. Though then again, I doubt this will be permanent, because otherwise what would be Stamets‘ job on board Discovery once we’re back in the Primeverse? He’s a mushroom expert, so mushrooms presumably will continue to play a role for a while yet.
Trivia: leave it to the Discovery writers to say „your ships can be canon, fandom, if you’re into (emotional) incest!“ MirrorGeorgiou raised Michael as her daughter but, as she informs her, MirrorBurnham also saw Lorca as her father figure until he seduced her. Oh, and it just occurred to me: with the new info that Lorca and MirrorBurnham were in cahoots and in the attempted coup together, do we even have a guarantee that the other official info our heroes got from the rebel database, that MirrorBurnham is dead, is correct? About the only reason I can see is that Lorca would not have needed PrimeMicheal if he still had MirrorBurnham in order to gain access to the palace and the Emperor.
In conclusion: bring on next week!
First of all, the one thing I’m not happy with which I bet 99% of fandom is happy with, if it is what it appears to be, to wit: dead Voq, living Tyler. I mean, I can see the karmic retribution of L’Rell, whose idea this whole thing was, being able to save only one of them and having to save not Voq, whom she loves, but Tyler, who so far was simply a mask based on a dead prisoner to her. However, in terms of narrative interest, Voq having to deal with Tyler’s memories and spillover emotions and stuck in a human body, no possiblity of ever becoming physically Klingon again, would be a much more interesting character to me than Tyler free of Voq’s personality, memories etc. That just feels like a meagre pay off to this entire storyline. And yet L’Rell having her Voq flashbacks and voicing the Klingon death cry pretty much feels like at least she thinks she’s sending Voq to the afterlife. I suppose I can still hope for Tyler actually retaining Voq’s memories, emotions etc. even if he’s Tyler again and having to deal with those? (My small basis of hope for this is that he says „my brothers ,my sisters“ in English after L’Rell thinks she’s sent Voq to his death.)
Now, on to everything else. You know, between Voq & Co. eating Georgiou Prime’s body and MirrorGeorgiu serving Kelpien at dinner, I think it’s save to say producing Hannibal has left lingering effects on Bryan Fuller. Even if he’s no longer on the show. (Discovery, that is.) Good lord. Otoh, it’s a drastic way of signalling that great as MirrorGeorgiu looks in her Mirroverse uniform and as much as she’s into Michael Burnham (any Michael Burnham), she really is evil to the core. (As to whether or not she’s actually „honorable“ in the sense that she’ll keep her word, only the fact that it would be an absolute non-surprise for her not to makes me wonder whether she will. The MirrorGeorgiu & Michael scenes filled in some backstory (and how!), among other things how Mirroverse Burnham was raised (not by Sarek and Amanda but by Georgiu, as some people had suspected), that at least the Emperor and presumably other elite staff (including Lorca) knew about the existence of the Primeverse but all this otherwise is still classified and a big secret in the Mirrorverse, and, of course, the big one, re: Lorca.
At this point there was no other explanation left, and to give credit where due: the show even managed to a) make the truth about the thing with Lorca’s eyes a key reveal point and b) came up with a Watsonian explanation for the moody lighting on the Mirroverse ships to do so. I salute you, PTB. Also, I’m back to my original episode 3 or so guess that we’ll end the season with either Saru or Michael in command of the Discovery, though I don’t think we’ll end it with Lorca dead. Or, for that matter, with Lorca Prime being found and restored. Why not the later? Because we don’t know Lorca Prime. We have no reason to care about Lorca Prime (either positively or negatively). Introducing him at this late hour would be – well, okay, there’s the Harry Potter precedent of introducing the real Mad-Eye Moody at the very end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and keeping him around until the last volume as a bit player, but you know, I was never invested in the real Mad-Eye Moody over at HP, either.
So, what I’m hoping for is for Lorca Prime to be dead, and for this Lorca to be the only Lorca around. Emphasis on „around“, because I don’t want him to be killed off at the end of the season. Maybe, as I speculated (though for other reasons) early in the show’s season, as Michael’s future arch nemesis whom she can’t entirely hate and who knows her a bit too well. (Especially since she doesn’t have to be conflicted about Tyler anymore, if he’s Tyler now.) Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
On to Paul Stamets. The entire time he was with his Mirror counterpart, I mentally yelled „don’t trust him“, so it was a relief when they separated and Hugh Culber later confirmed that opinion. My money is currently on MirrorStamets being one of Lorca’s allies (which is why Lorca knew he had to get Prime Stamets on board Discovery, I think it was mentioned in 1.03 that this was personal recruitment/drafting), but with an eye to the throne for himself as a personal endgame. (Either Stamets being underestimated by Lorca would fit.) Our Stamets having the chance to talk to Hugh and be with him but also to leave in order to save everyone may have been predictable in terms of how encounters with dead loved ones go, but it was very movingly executed. And with Hugh saying „no one is really gone“, I’m still not giving up hope for some type of resurrection by the end of the season, though I have no idea how, since Stamets seems to have emerged from his coma without megalomania and superpowers. Oh, and the mycellium being poisoned due to MirrorStamets‘ actions brings up a new possible explanation as to why in future Trek using the Spore Drive is not an option anymore. Though then again, I doubt this will be permanent, because otherwise what would be Stamets‘ job on board Discovery once we’re back in the Primeverse? He’s a mushroom expert, so mushrooms presumably will continue to play a role for a while yet.
Trivia: leave it to the Discovery writers to say „your ships can be canon, fandom, if you’re into (emotional) incest!“ MirrorGeorgiou raised Michael as her daughter but, as she informs her, MirrorBurnham also saw Lorca as her father figure until he seduced her. Oh, and it just occurred to me: with the new info that Lorca and MirrorBurnham were in cahoots and in the attempted coup together, do we even have a guarantee that the other official info our heroes got from the rebel database, that MirrorBurnham is dead, is correct? About the only reason I can see is that Lorca would not have needed PrimeMicheal if he still had MirrorBurnham in order to gain access to the palace and the Emperor.
In conclusion: bring on next week!
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no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 11:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 11:24 am (UTC)Lorca knowing one way to cross without going mad that doesn't involve the spore drive might be key to future developments. I'm just pretty sure that whichever method he used, it won't be something he can do on his own.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 02:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-26 07:29 am (UTC)Yes, that has been my assumption since early on.
Yes -- as you outline, Lorca was really keen on the spore drive as such, to a degree that made him look mad underneath his even temper (if you were the viewer, not a duped Starfleet officer). Why bother, if he had some other way back? The cataclysm of the Buran probably broke the universe randomly in a lucky spot, whereas the USS Defiant trying to escape the Mirror!verse...wasn't so lucky.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-27 05:58 pm (UTC)If it was only Lorca who crossed over, it means he killed the Prime crew of the Buran, correct?
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Date: 2018-01-22 02:40 pm (UTC)I've totally thought they meant to end the season with Michael staging a "mutiny" and the crew and audience being behind her this time, and her being captain, altho Saru being captain also seems possible. I'm kinda up for Lorca Prime coming back and finding out his entire life has been set on fire, by himself! but that would be just gravy.
Current guess as to what we’ll happen with Lorca: he’ll almost succeed, maybe even to the point of becoming Emperor for all of one minute, but then will be foiled and defeated by Michael in alliance with MirrorGeorgiou (whether or not MirrorGeorgiu stabs her in the back thereafter is optional), but in the end a third party will end up becoming the next Mirrorverse Emperor (possibly MirrorStamets). After almost having succeeded (or succeeded for a very brief time), the next worst thing that could happen to Lorca is not to remain in the Mirrorverse (agony booths? He’s up for them) but to end up in the Primeverse again, sans everything, exposed and this time without the possibility of returning. This gives him both a grudge against our heroine and possibly the key element to be a good arch nemesis, to wit, respect precisely because she managed to uncover and defeat him. The season finale would then end with Lorca as a prisoner in the Primeverse (mirroring the pilot ending with Michael as a prisoner for having gone up against Georgiou), and the next season would have him escape and find a way to be a villain in the Primeverse thereafter.
Oh, YES! I've always thought he'd escape at the end of S1 and be a continuing antagonist, too, and this would be just about perfect.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 04:01 pm (UTC)The thing is, we already know how the Human/Klingon war will end - with a cold war situation and neither side dominant until the Khitomer Accords decades later. Unless the show goes AU the way the rebootverse did, it's stuck with this, and I don't think they'll go AU that way. Which means they can't drag out the Klingon war situation forever, and if they don't keep Voq as Voq or VoqTyler around but solely as Tyler around, then there's no one on the Klingon side of things who has an emotional connection, good or bad, to our heroine and the audience anyway.
Whereas Lorca would be an ideal s2 antagonist. He knows everyone, everyone knows him. His fate isn't covered by ST continuity, which means the writers have a free hand there. And if they don't do a late season Dukat and make him want-to-destroy-the-world crazy, he could be a perfect arch nemesis for Michael. (And I really don't want to lose him as a character. He's interesting! Way more than Kol ever was, and you can only use Harry Mudd so often. And as I said, they just removed Voq-as-antagonist as an option.)
Re: Michael or Saru as Captain post s1: one reason why I'm doubtful it'll be Michael is that they surely are aiming for more than two seasons, and if she's not promoted at once, it'll feel more emotionally real. (Am still not over Reboot Kirk going from Cadet to Captain.) While I don't think the prison sentence will be reinstated anymore once they're back in the Primeverse and all is revealed to Starfleet command, going from pardoned prisoner to Captain is a bit much.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-22 04:17 pm (UTC)OMG, YES PLEASE. Ordinarily I just don't like characters like Lorca at all, but Isaacs somehow makes him magnetic and interesting and even appealing! What is this acting talent stuff.
-- I agree that it would be awfully fast for Michael, but I think it might happen purely as an echo of how we first see her as cherished protege falling to mutineer/prisoner, she could climb back up as mutineer -- > captain. Or maybe temporary captain, and then Saru would take over. It would be more convincing if it took longer, though.
(Am still not over Reboot Kirk going from Cadet to Captain.)
LOLLLLLLL and that is why I didn't watch the reboots (well that and the Spousal Overunit going "THAT IS NOT THE ONE TRUE KIRK AND SPOCK NOPE." Original series fanboy all the way, heh).
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Date: 2018-01-22 10:17 pm (UTC)I have considered trying to pick up The Flash for one plotline only, which is the second-season character arc of Tom Cavanaugh's Harrison Wells, who has been described to me as kind of a prickly asshole but not actually the big bad of the first season, just his counterpart from Earth-2 who has to deal with the fact that just about everyone he meets either hates or doesn't trust him because his doppelgänger burned his reputation to the ground. I have no idea how the rest of the show is doing, but that part sounded great.
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Date: 2018-01-22 10:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-01-26 07:32 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2018-01-29 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-01-23 10:33 am (UTC)I'm not sure what that was about with the guy's sister Ava / Eva (will we learn more?) but our Lorca does seem to have some good points apart from the skeeviness of his seduction of a young Burnham - he does care about his crew as shown in the timeloop ep. And yes, he's fascinating so I'd like to see him return to our universe. Noted with interest that mirrorverse people are capable of love, so Lorca wouldn't have learned all that on our side, though I doubt Burnham could ever see him the same way again now she knows.
As for the cannibalism, and the Vog|Tyler flashbacks, I had to look away. But wow, this series has delivered a lot more than I was expecting.
no subject
Date: 2018-01-25 08:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:Tyler/Voq
Date: 2018-01-26 07:39 am (UTC)...sure, L'Rell did the death cry, but that could have been for either, and also? None of this procedure has worked particularly well (I guess master spies aren't master surgeons or geneticists necessarily).
But of course, as a Burnham shipper, and generally a shipper whose ships get destroyed in every show she watches (every one but The X-Files, it seems :) I am very cautious in my takes...
Re: Tyler/Voq
Date: 2018-01-26 08:24 am (UTC)This being said, it definitely makes no Watsonian character sense for L'Rell to kill Voq as opposed to Tyler if she can save one of them, unless she's convinced Voq would die either way. I do hope for some clarification in the next episode, rather urgently.
As for medical sense - well, this is the franchise that produced Spock's Brain, the legendary TOS episode in which a bunch of women make off with, well, Spock's brain in order to save their world (nothing but the best male intellect would do), and at the end of the episode McCoy puts the recovered brain back into Spock's skull. Nothing will ever be able to compete with this one.
Re: Tyler/Voq
From:no subject
Date: 2018-01-27 05:55 pm (UTC)- Eating Kelpien: It's very likely they ate Saru, isn't it? If I saw correctly, Evil!Empress made Michael choose one of the lined up Kelpiens (not saying for what), Michael pointed at Saru - and then they have Kelpien for dinner. This really gives me the creeps... (shudders)
- So far I'm very impressed by the show writers' instincts. They give the viewers plenty of clues for certain developments (mirror clues, Voq/Ash clues, Lorca clues) so it pays off to view the show with an eye to details and gives you a great sense of satisfaction whenever you can yell at the screen: Yay, I knew it! :-)
They also don't drag out the secrets, but give you emotionally satisfying reveals.
Tyler/Voq meeting Voq or Lorca revealing his true self the same time Michael puts all the clues together. (Love the dim lightning clue! Love it!)
3 episodes ago, I was sure I would hate for our Lorca being Mirror!Lorca, but it really makes sense and the reveal did not feel wrong to me, but perfect.
That's why I'm fairly confident they won't settle us with pure human Ash Tyler: Story-telling wise it would be such a waste. I believe L'Rell believes she lost him, but that may not be true at all.
- Was totally amazed how much the Stamets/Hugh scene touched me. Actually more than the Ash/Michael sad reveal.
- Am totally looking forward to more, hope we will not yet leave the mirrorverse. Believe we might spent 2 more episodes there.
I think Mirror!Michael might still make an appearance. Also there are some characters which we might still meet in the mirror verse, e.g. Hugh. Would be interesting to see Stamets meet Mirror!Hugh. Right now, am pretty sure Lorca is dead. Destinywise it would make sense to still meet main Lorca and Mirror!Michael as a team.
- Wonder what the Mirror!Crew of the Discovery is doing in our universe. If I understand it correctly Mirror!Tilly should have crossed over in the other direction, right?
no subject
Date: 2018-01-28 05:05 am (UTC)Nope. MirrorSaru is on the MirrorShenzou. We see clearly when Michael arrives on the Charon (that's the Emperor's palace) whom she has with her on her shuttle - Lorca, plus presumably whoever piloted the shuttle - and that's it. Unless she had MirrorSaru hidden somewhere on the shuttle (and why on earth should she bring him along?), he's still on the Shenzou.
That said, I do not look forward to Michael eventually debriefing about all that happened on the Charon, which would include the Kelpien meal...
I've come around to MirrorLorca as well before the reveal confirmed it. MirrorMichael: agreed, the story of her death could be as wrong as the one of MirroLorca's demise. But if she's still alive, there must be a reason why Lorca couldn't infiltrate the palace with her help, why he needed Michael Prime to do so.
Wonder what the Mirror!Crew of the Discovery is doing in our universe. If I understand it correctly Mirror!Tilly should have crossed over in the other direction, right?
Yes. Various commenters have expressed fondness for a "your life has been set on fire... by your other self!" type of angsty storyline for Lorca Prime (if he's still alive and shows up), but it has occured to me we might get thath anyway for our entire crew, because MirrorTilly's Discovery undoubtedly has done nothing good for their reputation. It wouldn't surprise me if our gang are all wanted war criminals by the time they return...
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2018-01-31 10:59 pm (UTC)I'm also very pleased to see that you enjoyed the light sensitivity reveal--I have seen a lot of hate on the internet for that plot point, but I really liked it. Nothing like tying a character point with all those poorly lit Mirror!sets in TNG and DS9! And the whole blinded by his ship explosion always struck me as off somehow.
And I like your speculations about season 2, but I thought Disco was supposed to be an anthology show, with the cast scrapped anew for each season. (It does feel to me like the setup for a self-contained story, with Lorca defeated/killed and Burnham a captain or at least back on the road to one by the end of the season.) Did they throw out that concept when they got rid of Bryan Fuller?
no subject
Date: 2018-02-01 03:41 pm (UTC)No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised, because other than the American Horror and American Crime franchises, has anyone ever pulled that anthology concept off successfully? Also, while s2 is confirmed, I didn't hear anything about them hiring a set of new actors...