More Harry Potter thoughts
Jun. 27th, 2003 03:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakReading the novel for a second, more leisurely time, I came up with some additional observations.
Slytherins: you know, Phineas Nigellus is arguably the first truly likeable Slyth outside of fanfic. (Snape is fascinating, and up to OotP was the character who interested me most - now Harry is and Severus got demoted to second place - but I wouldn't call him likeable.) Go, you snarky portrait, you. Methinks it could be quite beneficial for Dumbledore to have an equal around who isn't in awe of him, beholden to him, or evil, either. I hope Phineas will become recurring for the rest of the series.
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butterfly and ivyblossom in their spirited Draco defense pointed out, the Sorting Hat's song drops a rather big anvil about the cooperation of all four houses - not just Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff - being necessary. I'm still not on board with the Draco redemption idea - mostly because I don't see any set up. (For counter arguments, see the posts of the above named ladies. I don't agree, but they're really worth considering.) However, some sort of inter-house reconciliation through personal relationships is clearly asked for. Which either means Draco/Pansy/Millicent/new character will reveal unsuspected depths in the remaining two books, and join Harry & Co., or that Harry, who gets told at least once a book he'd have done well in Slytherin, joins Slytherin House as a big gesture to unite Hogwarts at some crucial point in the battle against Voldemort, or that it's going to be Snape, Mr. Morally Ambiguous since Philospher's Stone. Otoh, I tend to assume Snape will die in the last volume, which would negate the impact of making the Slytherin/Gryffindor reconciliation a symbol for the future.
Or...wait...Babylon 5 association, here I come: I wonder whether JKR ever watched? Gentle readers, gentle viewers, cast your mind to season 4, where Neroon, a warrior caste Minbari and enemy of religious caste Minbari Delenn for most of the series, who insulted her and made life difficult for her on a pretty regular basis, seemingly betrayed her after she made a truce with him. Only he hasn't. Instead, he sacrifices his life for hers so that the Minbari civil war might end: "I was born...warrior caste... but I die...religious caste..."
Hmmmmm....
Catching up with what other people said about OotP, I notice the basic reaction to the Pensieve seem to be:
1) How could JKR do that to the Marauders? They can't have been like this!
2) Awesome. I always knew they were just bullies. Poor Severus.
3) This is so fanon cliché!
4) It's Snape's memory, so it's probably distorted anyway, and besides, didn't Sirius tell us repeatedly he was in a future Death Eater clique at school? Presumably his pals showed up soon after and hexed the Marauders.
5) Boys will be boys. Also, James and Sirius turned out to be noble people and Snape still bullies Harry and Neville.
6) Interesting. Makes James human instead of an idol and adds background to Snape and his undying hatred for the Marauders. Doesn't excuse either James then nor Snape now, though.
Memories as used in the Potter series: I don't think we're meant to see them as lies. They can be selective, of course. What Tom Riddle shows Harry in CoS is not a lie; it did happen, and I don't doubt exactly those words were exchanged. But of course, Harry doesn't get a glimpse in Tom's head, so he has no means of knowing what motivated Tom in what he gets to witness until Tom tells him much later. Similarily, when Harry gets to witness some of Dumbledore's memories in GoF, he sees them in a third person fashion, as he did Tom's; he doesn't know what Dumbledore thought or felt during the trials. This doesn't stop Harry from drawing conclusions or making his own observations within the memories; watching Tom and Headmaster Dippet in CoS, he deduces Tom is holding something back and lying just as he, Harry, does lie to Dumbledore on occasion. In GoF, he notices Moody looks sceptical and disbelieving when Dumbledore says Snape is not a Death Eater anymore, and is disgusted by the fawning Ludo Bagleman is greeted with.
So I don't think we're supposed to assume that what Harry sees in Snape's memories is not what happened, or that Snape paints the Marauders blacker (no pun intended) than they were. And it's Harry's choice - which disturbs him almost as much as the revelations about his father - to identify with Snape in this memory. Which, incidentally, clearly does not occur to Snape who seems to assume Harry is enjoying the spectacle of Young Severus getting humiliated much like James did ("having fun?"). Nor do I think we're supposed to assume this was a singular event; as Harry notices, Snape reacts as if he expected an attack. All the bystanders react as if this - James and Sirius going after Severus Snape - is a spectacle they're used to. Lily doesn't give the impression this is new or unusual behaviour for James, either. And just in case we missed the moral, later Dumbledore points out to Harry, re: Sirius and Kreacher, the dreadful consequences lack of respect can have, and says about Snape and James that some scars just go too deep.
OTOH, of course this doesn't mean we're to take the fact Snape was bullied by the Marauders at school the complete explanation or as an excuse for his stint as a Death Eater and his present-day attitude in regards to Harry or Neville, either. I find myself reminded of Willow and Cordelia. First season BTVS Cordy bullied Willow much as James and Sirius went after Snape. This doesn't mean Cordy is to blame for Willow going Darth Rosenberg in season 6. Yet we were shown very clearly throughout the seasons that Willow never quite lost the image of herself as the girl Cordy ridiculed or the self-loathing this caused, and this was a contributing factor in her development and later behaviour.
Something which hit me during the second reading: I don't like Remus Lupin all that much anymore. Perhaps because standing by and doing nothing is one of the cardinal sins in my opinion. (Also in Catholic Dogma - lethargy.) Strangely, I resent Remus more for this than I do James or Sirius. They were arrogant and cruel, but they didn't realize they were doing wrong until years later. Remus, if we're to believe him, did realize it was wrong but still didn't act. Compare this to 11-years-old Neville who did have the courage to stand up to Harry, Hermione and Ron when he thought they were doing something wrong. And Neville at 11 was much more shy and desperate to be liked than Remus at 15/16.
Slytherins: you know, Phineas Nigellus is arguably the first truly likeable Slyth outside of fanfic. (Snape is fascinating, and up to OotP was the character who interested me most - now Harry is and Severus got demoted to second place - but I wouldn't call him likeable.) Go, you snarky portrait, you. Methinks it could be quite beneficial for Dumbledore to have an equal around who isn't in awe of him, beholden to him, or evil, either. I hope Phineas will become recurring for the rest of the series.
As
butterfly and ivyblossom in their spirited Draco defense pointed out, the Sorting Hat's song drops a rather big anvil about the cooperation of all four houses - not just Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff - being necessary. I'm still not on board with the Draco redemption idea - mostly because I don't see any set up. (For counter arguments, see the posts of the above named ladies. I don't agree, but they're really worth considering.) However, some sort of inter-house reconciliation through personal relationships is clearly asked for. Which either means Draco/Pansy/Millicent/new character will reveal unsuspected depths in the remaining two books, and join Harry & Co., or that Harry, who gets told at least once a book he'd have done well in Slytherin, joins Slytherin House as a big gesture to unite Hogwarts at some crucial point in the battle against Voldemort, or that it's going to be Snape, Mr. Morally Ambiguous since Philospher's Stone. Otoh, I tend to assume Snape will die in the last volume, which would negate the impact of making the Slytherin/Gryffindor reconciliation a symbol for the future. Or...wait...Babylon 5 association, here I come: I wonder whether JKR ever watched? Gentle readers, gentle viewers, cast your mind to season 4, where Neroon, a warrior caste Minbari and enemy of religious caste Minbari Delenn for most of the series, who insulted her and made life difficult for her on a pretty regular basis, seemingly betrayed her after she made a truce with him. Only he hasn't. Instead, he sacrifices his life for hers so that the Minbari civil war might end: "I was born...warrior caste... but I die...religious caste..."
Hmmmmm....
Catching up with what other people said about OotP, I notice the basic reaction to the Pensieve seem to be:
1) How could JKR do that to the Marauders? They can't have been like this!
2) Awesome. I always knew they were just bullies. Poor Severus.
3) This is so fanon cliché!
4) It's Snape's memory, so it's probably distorted anyway, and besides, didn't Sirius tell us repeatedly he was in a future Death Eater clique at school? Presumably his pals showed up soon after and hexed the Marauders.
5) Boys will be boys. Also, James and Sirius turned out to be noble people and Snape still bullies Harry and Neville.
6) Interesting. Makes James human instead of an idol and adds background to Snape and his undying hatred for the Marauders. Doesn't excuse either James then nor Snape now, though.
Memories as used in the Potter series: I don't think we're meant to see them as lies. They can be selective, of course. What Tom Riddle shows Harry in CoS is not a lie; it did happen, and I don't doubt exactly those words were exchanged. But of course, Harry doesn't get a glimpse in Tom's head, so he has no means of knowing what motivated Tom in what he gets to witness until Tom tells him much later. Similarily, when Harry gets to witness some of Dumbledore's memories in GoF, he sees them in a third person fashion, as he did Tom's; he doesn't know what Dumbledore thought or felt during the trials. This doesn't stop Harry from drawing conclusions or making his own observations within the memories; watching Tom and Headmaster Dippet in CoS, he deduces Tom is holding something back and lying just as he, Harry, does lie to Dumbledore on occasion. In GoF, he notices Moody looks sceptical and disbelieving when Dumbledore says Snape is not a Death Eater anymore, and is disgusted by the fawning Ludo Bagleman is greeted with.
So I don't think we're supposed to assume that what Harry sees in Snape's memories is not what happened, or that Snape paints the Marauders blacker (no pun intended) than they were. And it's Harry's choice - which disturbs him almost as much as the revelations about his father - to identify with Snape in this memory. Which, incidentally, clearly does not occur to Snape who seems to assume Harry is enjoying the spectacle of Young Severus getting humiliated much like James did ("having fun?"). Nor do I think we're supposed to assume this was a singular event; as Harry notices, Snape reacts as if he expected an attack. All the bystanders react as if this - James and Sirius going after Severus Snape - is a spectacle they're used to. Lily doesn't give the impression this is new or unusual behaviour for James, either. And just in case we missed the moral, later Dumbledore points out to Harry, re: Sirius and Kreacher, the dreadful consequences lack of respect can have, and says about Snape and James that some scars just go too deep.
OTOH, of course this doesn't mean we're to take the fact Snape was bullied by the Marauders at school the complete explanation or as an excuse for his stint as a Death Eater and his present-day attitude in regards to Harry or Neville, either. I find myself reminded of Willow and Cordelia. First season BTVS Cordy bullied Willow much as James and Sirius went after Snape. This doesn't mean Cordy is to blame for Willow going Darth Rosenberg in season 6. Yet we were shown very clearly throughout the seasons that Willow never quite lost the image of herself as the girl Cordy ridiculed or the self-loathing this caused, and this was a contributing factor in her development and later behaviour.
Something which hit me during the second reading: I don't like Remus Lupin all that much anymore. Perhaps because standing by and doing nothing is one of the cardinal sins in my opinion. (Also in Catholic Dogma - lethargy.) Strangely, I resent Remus more for this than I do James or Sirius. They were arrogant and cruel, but they didn't realize they were doing wrong until years later. Remus, if we're to believe him, did realize it was wrong but still didn't act. Compare this to 11-years-old Neville who did have the courage to stand up to Harry, Hermione and Ron when he thought they were doing something wrong. And Neville at 11 was much more shy and desperate to be liked than Remus at 15/16.
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Date: 2003-06-27 08:31 pm (UTC)Nodding furiously. If Snape is still bearing a grudge against the Marauders, he should take it out on the (surviving) Marauders. Which he does. He should not take it out on a child who wasn't even born when this persecution was taking place, simply because he gets half his DNA from James Potter. And what his excuse is for Neville, I don't know. I'd wager a guess that Snape gets off on being feared, and only a kid like Neville, who's afraid of a lot, really fears him. The other kids, even at eleven, were more irritated by/resentful of him than fearful.
Which is not to say that Snape is evil incarnate. He's an unpleasant, bitter prick who absolutely shouldn't be teaching children. But he is on the right side, and has by all accounts displayed a fair bit of personal bravery in the call of duty. Doesn't make him a nice person at all, just makes him a prick who happens to be on the good guys' side. And I like that Rowling lets him be complicated like that. Even if you're on the side of the angels, not everybody who's there with you is going to be a sweetie. That's true in real life, and I'm glad she let it be true in fiction.
Something which hit me during the second reading: I don't like Remus Lupin all that much anymore. Perhaps because standing by and doing nothing is one of the cardinal sins in my opinion. (Also in Catholic Dogma - lethargy.) Strangely, I resent Remus more for this than I do James or Sirius. They were arrogant and cruel, but they didn't realize they were doing wrong until years later. Remus, if we're to believe him, did realize it was wrong but still didn't act. Compare this to 11-years-old Neville who did have the courage to stand up to Harry, Hermione and Ron when he thought they were doing something wrong. And Neville at 11 was much more shy and desperate to be liked than Remus at 15/16.
What bugged me wasn't just that Remus knew it was wrong and went along anyway (although that's an excellent point on your part) it's also that he was a PREFECT. If he were just another kid turning a blind eye when his friends bully the resident scapegoat, I still wouldn't like it, but it would bother me a little less. But he's in a position of authority, and he's supposed to behave responsibly. If he can't handle it, he should hand in his prefect badge. Note how Hermione, at the same age Remus was then, when faced with a similar conflict of interest (her friends Fred and George exploiting first years), upheld the rules very strongly, and made it clear they wouldn't get away with that behaviour.
1) Remus
Date: 2003-06-27 11:31 pm (UTC)> I was also playing with that [intolerance] when I created Professor Lupin, who has a condition, which is contagious of course and so people are very frightened of him and I really like Professor Lupin as a character because he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have liked to have had as a teacher) and a wonderful man, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. He's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack.<
I.e. Remus was prepared to accept James and Sirius bullying Snape despite knowing it was wrong and despite being a Prefect because they were his friends and he didn't want to lose their friendship. Which, again, makes him less responsible than Hermione and Neville both. And says something sad about his confidence in their friendship. JKR talking about this flaw in present tense makes me wonder whether it will come into play in future volumes as well?
2) Snape
Date: 2003-06-27 11:41 pm (UTC)As for Snape's attitude regarding Neville, my guess is that a lot of it has to do with knowing exactly what it's like to be Neville. He despises Neville precisely because he sees a lot of himself there, not despite of it. (Wouldn't be surprised if Snape had the same self loathing going on that Willow did.) Not, mind you, that this excuses him in the slightest.
Incidentally: after what happened in OotP, I doubt Neville will still be intimidated by Snape. I mean, the boy faced and survived DEs and the Cruciatus!
Also: OotP is the first novel where Snape does something remotely responsible about Neville, albeit in a very Snape-ish way. I'm referring to his parting shot after refusing to help Umbridge out with the Veritaserum: "Potter, when I want nonsense shouted at me I shall give you a Babbling Beverage. And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little. If Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job."