Timey-Wimey indeed
Apr. 26th, 2019 09:53 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakDisclaimer: So I couldn't resist checking out some other reactions after all, and prompty ran into heated debates. Before beating a hasty retread, however, my mind was set in motion regarding some key points dealing with time travel. Which it probably shouldn't, given any given time travel plot in any franchise usually does not bear close examination, but hey. Sometimes my inner fan can't resist. I'm not saying my interpretation is the One True One or more valid than your interpretation, just that it's mine, and also a factor as to why I liked the movie. Also, spoilers for Avengers: Endgame ensue, of course.
1.) The nature of time travel in this movie - does changing the past create one new timeline, or several time lines? The scenes most quoted are on the one hand the early discussion between the Avengers in which someone brings up the obvious "killing Hitler" scenario (i.e. travel back to baby Thanos, commit infanticide to save universe) and the reply is that this would create a new time line in which Thanos never grew up to slaughter billions, sure, but meanwhile, everyone in their old timeline would still be dead and they'd stay there (which would argue for the multiverse model), hence the goal not being "kill Thanos even earlier than we already did" but "use the Infinity Stones to bring everyone back"; and on the other the one between the Ancient One and Bruce in which he ends up promising her to return the Infinity Stones to exactly those points in time they were plucked from after use because otherwise, disaster would follow (could argue for the "one changed timeline is it" model, though not necessarily; she could simply have been referring to the fact that were the time stone (hers to guard specifically) remain in the future, the Doctor Strange big bad would be capable of wrecking the universe all on his lonesome in the past.
What to me seals the "multiple timelines, each a different one branching out from the point of change" model is that older Nebula is still around alive and well at the end of the movie despite killing her younger self to save Gamora. Not to mention that younger Nebula wasn't the only one to travel forward from 2014; so did 2014!! Thanos and his entire army, who meet their ending there. Now, if there's just one timeline and Thanos & Co. suddenly disappear in 2014, none of the subsequent events would have happened the way they did, yet clearly, for all of the characters around post battle, they have done. Which brings me to:
2.) Steve deciding to stay with Peggy in the past and to grow old with her once he's delivered all the Infinity Stones back to the point in time where the Avengers previously took them from. Incidentally, when watching (and now as well), I didn't take this to mean he'd gone back to 1945 but that he remained in 1970 once he'd put the Tesseract back there. Why? Because Steve isn't the one programming the various time jumps. Bruce does that. That he couldn't bring back Steve from the last one (to 1970) is presumably because Steve got rid of the equipment on his end. Yes, Tony and Steve after failing in 2012 travelled further back into the past (i.e. 1970), but Tony could reprogramm the equipment because he invented it. Steve is a smart guy, but not an engineer. Also, the film previously showed us and him Peggy in 1970, and to me this made more narrative sense as the point of their reunion because it meant they were on more of an equal emotional level than if Steve had gone back to 1945. 1970! Peggy had lived many years without Steve as he'd done without her, and had her share of relationships and world savings, etc.
Whether 1945 or 1970, though, the big objection which I understand is: wouldn't Steve at either of these points in time a) try save Bucky from Winter Soldier-dom, and b) tell Peggy what's up with Hydra-in-SHIELD? (There's also the c) of telling Howard he's alive, but that's not as important as the first two.) Absolutely. And I don't doubt he did. The sole indication he didn't would be that in this very final scene Bucky is still around in young form, not similiarly aged (as he would have been had he been de-Winter-Soldiered in 1970). But given the precedent of Nebula alive and well despite the fate of her younger self and evidentally the fate of 2014!Thanos & Co. not changing anyone's memories of Thanos wiping out half the cosmos well after 2014, I don't see the existence of Bucky in his original form as proof that the old Steve whom Sam has his conversation with did not try to deal with both Hydra in general and the Winter Soldier program in particular once he'd arrived in the past and reunited with Peggy. How far he succeeded, who knows? We don't, either way, because that's the very last scene of the film.
3. Why doesn't Thor try to bring back Loki and/or all the dead Asgardians who weren't dusted but killed by Thanos in his initial assault? He's never in a position to. He volunteers to wear the glove with the Infinity Stones several times, only to have this firmly but gently rejected by the other Avengers. Bruce counters the argument that Thor channels lightning anyway and thus is more likely to survive by pointing out it's not just about surviving holding the stones but about the focus and concentration necessary to wield them, and Thor, in his present condition, isn't likely to achieve this. Which is why Bruce, who in his current Hulk-shape-with-Bruce-brain both has the physical endurance and mental ability to focus, ends up doing it, and it burns up his arm anyway. Now, afterwards Bruce explicitly says he tried to bring back more than the dusted people, he tried to bring back Natasha, too, and that this did not work. Whether or not he tried to bring back other dead-but-not-dusted people beyond Natasha in vain, we don't know; it's possible, given he was present when Thanos & Co. boarded the ship and had bonded with the Asgardians previously. Either way, though, the film makes it clear that this first attempt at using the Infinity Stones by one of the Avengers only succeeded as far as the Snappening was concerned but not further, not for lack of trying but because it didn't work beyond that. Given that this is when 2014! Thanos starts his own time travelling and invasion, there are no further chances anyone has at using the stones until Tony does it at the end of the big showdown to prevent Thanos from wiping out the entire universe. And it promptly kills him. So no, the movie does not present the Infinity Stones as a gadget Thor could have used to bring back all of his people and his brother yet for some reason didn't.
(I suppose he could have attempted to snatch the stones and try for himself after Tony's death and before Bruce sent Steve back to the various points in time the stones were plucked from, but - seriously? That would have struck me as OOC.)
Possible use for fanfic: I have no idea whether the Infinity Stones still exist after this movie. Thanos destroyed them in the original time line after his success, which makes the time heist to get them necessary in the first place, and the two times the out-of-time-stones were used, by Bruce and Tony respectively, did not entail assuring their resurrection in the present. On both a Doylist and Watsonian level, it makes sense to get rid of devices able to change reality on such a horrible scale with a finger snap, anyway. Then again, 2012!Loki made off with the Tesseract, so the space stone at least survives in one time line?
Oh, and one more thing about time travel as presented in this movie: it has nothing to do with the time stone, isn't powered by or depending on it. It's done via a device Tony invented using Pym particles. (Place your bets whether Hank Pym, once he's coped with being undusted etc., likes the idea a Stark finally got his hands on his invention and used it in a Starkian way, even if it was to save the universe.) 2014!Thanos uses Tony's device as well for his last attempt at invasion. So whether or not the time stone would allow time travel beyond the tiny one hour jump Strange makes in Doctor Strange so save Hongkong is still up to debate.
1.) The nature of time travel in this movie - does changing the past create one new timeline, or several time lines? The scenes most quoted are on the one hand the early discussion between the Avengers in which someone brings up the obvious "killing Hitler" scenario (i.e. travel back to baby Thanos, commit infanticide to save universe) and the reply is that this would create a new time line in which Thanos never grew up to slaughter billions, sure, but meanwhile, everyone in their old timeline would still be dead and they'd stay there (which would argue for the multiverse model), hence the goal not being "kill Thanos even earlier than we already did" but "use the Infinity Stones to bring everyone back"; and on the other the one between the Ancient One and Bruce in which he ends up promising her to return the Infinity Stones to exactly those points in time they were plucked from after use because otherwise, disaster would follow (could argue for the "one changed timeline is it" model, though not necessarily; she could simply have been referring to the fact that were the time stone (hers to guard specifically) remain in the future, the Doctor Strange big bad would be capable of wrecking the universe all on his lonesome in the past.
What to me seals the "multiple timelines, each a different one branching out from the point of change" model is that older Nebula is still around alive and well at the end of the movie despite killing her younger self to save Gamora. Not to mention that younger Nebula wasn't the only one to travel forward from 2014; so did 2014!! Thanos and his entire army, who meet their ending there. Now, if there's just one timeline and Thanos & Co. suddenly disappear in 2014, none of the subsequent events would have happened the way they did, yet clearly, for all of the characters around post battle, they have done. Which brings me to:
2.) Steve deciding to stay with Peggy in the past and to grow old with her once he's delivered all the Infinity Stones back to the point in time where the Avengers previously took them from. Incidentally, when watching (and now as well), I didn't take this to mean he'd gone back to 1945 but that he remained in 1970 once he'd put the Tesseract back there. Why? Because Steve isn't the one programming the various time jumps. Bruce does that. That he couldn't bring back Steve from the last one (to 1970) is presumably because Steve got rid of the equipment on his end. Yes, Tony and Steve after failing in 2012 travelled further back into the past (i.e. 1970), but Tony could reprogramm the equipment because he invented it. Steve is a smart guy, but not an engineer. Also, the film previously showed us and him Peggy in 1970, and to me this made more narrative sense as the point of their reunion because it meant they were on more of an equal emotional level than if Steve had gone back to 1945. 1970! Peggy had lived many years without Steve as he'd done without her, and had her share of relationships and world savings, etc.
Whether 1945 or 1970, though, the big objection which I understand is: wouldn't Steve at either of these points in time a) try save Bucky from Winter Soldier-dom, and b) tell Peggy what's up with Hydra-in-SHIELD? (There's also the c) of telling Howard he's alive, but that's not as important as the first two.) Absolutely. And I don't doubt he did. The sole indication he didn't would be that in this very final scene Bucky is still around in young form, not similiarly aged (as he would have been had he been de-Winter-Soldiered in 1970). But given the precedent of Nebula alive and well despite the fate of her younger self and evidentally the fate of 2014!Thanos & Co. not changing anyone's memories of Thanos wiping out half the cosmos well after 2014, I don't see the existence of Bucky in his original form as proof that the old Steve whom Sam has his conversation with did not try to deal with both Hydra in general and the Winter Soldier program in particular once he'd arrived in the past and reunited with Peggy. How far he succeeded, who knows? We don't, either way, because that's the very last scene of the film.
3. Why doesn't Thor try to bring back Loki and/or all the dead Asgardians who weren't dusted but killed by Thanos in his initial assault? He's never in a position to. He volunteers to wear the glove with the Infinity Stones several times, only to have this firmly but gently rejected by the other Avengers. Bruce counters the argument that Thor channels lightning anyway and thus is more likely to survive by pointing out it's not just about surviving holding the stones but about the focus and concentration necessary to wield them, and Thor, in his present condition, isn't likely to achieve this. Which is why Bruce, who in his current Hulk-shape-with-Bruce-brain both has the physical endurance and mental ability to focus, ends up doing it, and it burns up his arm anyway. Now, afterwards Bruce explicitly says he tried to bring back more than the dusted people, he tried to bring back Natasha, too, and that this did not work. Whether or not he tried to bring back other dead-but-not-dusted people beyond Natasha in vain, we don't know; it's possible, given he was present when Thanos & Co. boarded the ship and had bonded with the Asgardians previously. Either way, though, the film makes it clear that this first attempt at using the Infinity Stones by one of the Avengers only succeeded as far as the Snappening was concerned but not further, not for lack of trying but because it didn't work beyond that. Given that this is when 2014! Thanos starts his own time travelling and invasion, there are no further chances anyone has at using the stones until Tony does it at the end of the big showdown to prevent Thanos from wiping out the entire universe. And it promptly kills him. So no, the movie does not present the Infinity Stones as a gadget Thor could have used to bring back all of his people and his brother yet for some reason didn't.
(I suppose he could have attempted to snatch the stones and try for himself after Tony's death and before Bruce sent Steve back to the various points in time the stones were plucked from, but - seriously? That would have struck me as OOC.)
Possible use for fanfic: I have no idea whether the Infinity Stones still exist after this movie. Thanos destroyed them in the original time line after his success, which makes the time heist to get them necessary in the first place, and the two times the out-of-time-stones were used, by Bruce and Tony respectively, did not entail assuring their resurrection in the present. On both a Doylist and Watsonian level, it makes sense to get rid of devices able to change reality on such a horrible scale with a finger snap, anyway. Then again, 2012!Loki made off with the Tesseract, so the space stone at least survives in one time line?
Oh, and one more thing about time travel as presented in this movie: it has nothing to do with the time stone, isn't powered by or depending on it. It's done via a device Tony invented using Pym particles. (Place your bets whether Hank Pym, once he's coped with being undusted etc., likes the idea a Stark finally got his hands on his invention and used it in a Starkian way, even if it was to save the universe.) 2014!Thanos uses Tony's device as well for his last attempt at invasion. So whether or not the time stone would allow time travel beyond the tiny one hour jump Strange makes in Doctor Strange so save Hongkong is still up to debate.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 08:33 am (UTC):-D
I absolutely understood it as Steve staying in the 1970s, for all the reasons you mentioned.
And yeah, I've been thinking about the time travel thing as well. The way the movie made a whole point out of saying "no, we are not doing the time travel thing as you would expect from all these movies: [cue Rhodey (and Scott I think?)]" was interesting. It isn't any more logical, but hey, time travel. But it's also a point about personal timelines, which always stay linear, as in: Steve isn't going to live in the past, he's going to live in his new present, moving on from a war - Infinity instead of WWII. So I don't think the Bucky we see at the end is in any way different, because his past happened exactly as it did. Because they made a whole point out of saying that changing something in the past doesn't change their current present, it all still happened. Otherwise, Loki's escape for example would have had many a ripple effect. There are two Lokis now, is my point. Like there were two Nebulas and two Gamoras. In the same present. The timelines aren't even separate, that only seems to happen when you move the time stone. Because otherwise you'd run into even more logic problems, because how is Old Man Steve there at the end with memories of a different "past"? Well. If this was comics I'd say: comics. You get ten different versions and backstories simultaneously. As is kind of appropriate for a comic book franchise. :-)
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 09:18 am (UTC)I personally think what Feige is aiming for, why he specifically said "there's before EG and after EG," is they're going to open up the multiverses like in the comics -- where our reality, or the comic book stories we see as "prime" reality, are just one verse in a multitude of verses. That could be a way to bring in the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Mile Morales, who knows. Having the different timelines and different versions of people is almost like a test to see whether the MCU audience will buy into the idea.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 09:40 am (UTC)Yes, this. It's kind of hard to keep all the details straight from watching a dense three hour movie only once, but this explanation kinda stuck with me.
Having the different timelines and different versions of people is almost like a test to see whether the MCU audience will buy into the idea.
Interesting thought! I like it.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 11:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 09:13 am (UTC)Yeah, there are also a couple of other points where it's obvious if it had all been in the same timeline, so many things in the past wouldn't have happened that there would have been no story. The quantum tunnels or whatever they're called also look like branches to me.
Incidentally, when watching (and now as well), I didn't take this to mean he'd gone back to 1945 but that he remained in 1970 once he'd put the Tesseract back there
I like that idea, but a car goes past their house during the pan-in shot which is really clearly from the late forties or fifties, and in 1970 she has grey in her hair and I didn't see any (could have missed it though).
Possible use for fanfic: I have no idea whether the Infinity Stones still exist after this movie
Steve takes them all back to their original places, so they do still exist? But yeah, I think once Thanos destroys them in this timeline they're gone. Altho now my head hurts.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 11:04 am (UTC)This. Bruce says "Steve jumped right by his timestamp" when he can't bring him back. And the scene with Steve and Peggy dancing is clearly sat in the direct post-war years - the car, her clothes, Peggy is the Peggy Steve left in 1945.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 11:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 11:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 11:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-26 06:26 pm (UTC)I liked much of the movie, but for me the ending they gave Steve did not work at all, because my interpretation was that we were meant to assume that he traveled back into the past to prevent the forks, and then lived out his retirement with Peggy, and somehow stands aside enough to change any of the events that are needed for the Thanos part of the timeline to unfold essentially unchanged, as he meets the the others after the same point. So he would not just have to stand by and watch the Hydra infiltration and Bucky's torture and assassination of Howard Stark, but somehow his life with Peggy needs to remain secret enough for Captain America to stay officially lost, the other him to stay in the ice to be found for the events of the first Avengers movie to unfold etc., even though by the 1970s people besides Peggy who knew him are also still around. It's not just really brain hurty in the usual time travel way, I honestly have a hard time imagining how Steve even could manage that.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-27 07:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-27 10:19 am (UTC)Do you think Steve lived out his life in his new timeline where he works with Peggy and has an impact on various things, that timeline has two Steves for a while (I'm not sure he would past-Steve let be frozen as long if he could help it either), and then after her natural death he goes back to the previous branch via Pym particles to pass on his shield? Or do you think the group of people at the end of the scene were different people from the start of the scene? Like the Bucky who spotted Old!Steve, the way I understood, he was a Bucky who lived through remaining the Winter Soldier until the events of CATWS, and he didn't travel through time or switched universes at any point, but was snapped for five years.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-28 05:09 am (UTC)And if all of that can be safely hand-waved, I disagree wholly with the idea that snapping Natasha, Gamora, Loki, Heimdall, et. al. wouldn't have worked - or rather, I still believe the Soul Stone could achieve this. I mean, un-dusting those who were dusted in the snappening is a separate action than bringing back or undoing deaths by other means, IMHO.
Seriously looking forward to the fanfiction. Because they won't solve these or the other plot holes in the movies, I bet.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-29 10:39 am (UTC)The reason they returned the stones and Mjolnir wasn't to repair their timeline, but because The Ancient One pointed out that by taking the stones away would doom those timelines, even if they didn't affect the main one.
The only problem is they break their own rules with old!Steve turning up sitting on the bench, as his life he lived with Peggy would've been in a different timeline, not this one. I handwave that by saying that he returned to the main timeline using his technology and somehow turned up on the bench, rather than Bruce's platform - he'd've had access to the alt-timeline's Hank Pym and Howard Stark, so it's plausible.
PJW
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 04:47 am (UTC)Randomly - I am totally down for the idea that Steve jumped timelines to be there on the bench, with the help of Hank Pym and Howard Stark. Gives Hank in particular even more weight overall.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-04 04:47 am (UTC)Joe Russo says it's Alternate Futures which I think is a cop-out of the worst kind, because they might as well save EVERYONE in that case.