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selenakThanks to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
smashc, I was able to watch two more Carnivale episodes. Lo, I wanted more Justin and Iris, and behold, The River provided. Okay, I figured out that the little girl and boy were Iris and Justin as children early on, but I didn’t know their accent was supposed to be Russian until that got spelled out. Am trying not to read too much into the fact that Justin is Russian and Ben is American, as the nice shades of grey continue.
The image of Ben healing Gabriel and the dead fish turning up in the water was genuinely eerie, and illustrates the excellent gambit the show has come up with – i.e. that his healing powers always come at the expense of life of some kind – very well. (It’s the old storytelling problem of having characters with superpowers – one always has to explain just why, if they can do X, they don’t just solve problem of the world Y.) Justin’s powers seem to be connected to death as well, but not exclusively – the migrant lady whom he made throw up coins in the first episode was alive and well afterwards, after all. “The left hand of God” expression from Lonnegan, Texas immediately reminded me of the Neil Gaiman short story Murder Mysteries and the angel – what was his name again – whose function it was to dispense judgment and death (but not always both at the same time).
I’m less enamoured of the ring turning up, because really, I’m a bit tired of the free masons and the templars. Too many books and films using them, I suppose. I hope this won’t get overemphasized here.
Justin and Iris as Russian imigrant children originally named Alexej and Irina, and little Iris’ insistence they can only trust a priest, made me wonder ever so briefly about another overexposed topos as well – the Anastasia story. And ever so briefly, I wondered whether we were supposed to deal with two escaped children of the Czar here. But none of the daughters was called Irina, so that’s that. (Still, I wonder whether there is a Rasputin connection?)
And then there is the ongoing WWI imagery. It’s fascinating that they use it so intensely, because it’s more apart of the European collective consciousness than of the American one, due to terms of involvement. Also, WWI as opposed to WWII can’t be read in a classic fantasy good versus evil manner. It’s the war that has come to epitomize complete senselessness of war aims and mass slaughter, the first one with modern weapons. So if WWI is a kind of model here, than not only do we not aim for a good versus evil conflict but then also Management might stand for the “old men” vilified by poets and writers across the lines and held responsible for turning Europe into a slaughterhouse. Note the blind Lodz offering himself as guide to Ben repeatedly and then stunning Samson by talking with Management directly. Blindness of ambition? Who knows, the show might go with Ben and Justin both ultimately creating their version of the legendary WWI Christmas truce only then going further and rejecting the Old Men for good?
Meanwhile, I detect distinct Edward Albee vibes from Rita and Felix, only Rita is far more assured and together than Martha, and Felix far weaker than George. Right now, my sympathies are more with Rita. As for Libby and Sofie, I’m not just wondering whether they get slashed, I wonder whether this actually will become text. The first two eps seemed to set up Sofie and Ben, but I’m ever so relieved that they go with the more interesting Sofie/Libby in terms of screentime and storytelling instead.
As I didn’t remark on it before: I love the music in this show. When hearing It’s only a Papermoon in episode 8, I had massive Peter Bogdanovich flashbacks, of course, which reminds me that one of these days I must write a post of why Papermoon is such a charming film.
smashc, I was able to watch two more Carnivale episodes. Lo, I wanted more Justin and Iris, and behold, The River provided. Okay, I figured out that the little girl and boy were Iris and Justin as children early on, but I didn’t know their accent was supposed to be Russian until that got spelled out. Am trying not to read too much into the fact that Justin is Russian and Ben is American, as the nice shades of grey continue. The image of Ben healing Gabriel and the dead fish turning up in the water was genuinely eerie, and illustrates the excellent gambit the show has come up with – i.e. that his healing powers always come at the expense of life of some kind – very well. (It’s the old storytelling problem of having characters with superpowers – one always has to explain just why, if they can do X, they don’t just solve problem of the world Y.) Justin’s powers seem to be connected to death as well, but not exclusively – the migrant lady whom he made throw up coins in the first episode was alive and well afterwards, after all. “The left hand of God” expression from Lonnegan, Texas immediately reminded me of the Neil Gaiman short story Murder Mysteries and the angel – what was his name again – whose function it was to dispense judgment and death (but not always both at the same time).
I’m less enamoured of the ring turning up, because really, I’m a bit tired of the free masons and the templars. Too many books and films using them, I suppose. I hope this won’t get overemphasized here.
Justin and Iris as Russian imigrant children originally named Alexej and Irina, and little Iris’ insistence they can only trust a priest, made me wonder ever so briefly about another overexposed topos as well – the Anastasia story. And ever so briefly, I wondered whether we were supposed to deal with two escaped children of the Czar here. But none of the daughters was called Irina, so that’s that. (Still, I wonder whether there is a Rasputin connection?)
And then there is the ongoing WWI imagery. It’s fascinating that they use it so intensely, because it’s more apart of the European collective consciousness than of the American one, due to terms of involvement. Also, WWI as opposed to WWII can’t be read in a classic fantasy good versus evil manner. It’s the war that has come to epitomize complete senselessness of war aims and mass slaughter, the first one with modern weapons. So if WWI is a kind of model here, than not only do we not aim for a good versus evil conflict but then also Management might stand for the “old men” vilified by poets and writers across the lines and held responsible for turning Europe into a slaughterhouse. Note the blind Lodz offering himself as guide to Ben repeatedly and then stunning Samson by talking with Management directly. Blindness of ambition? Who knows, the show might go with Ben and Justin both ultimately creating their version of the legendary WWI Christmas truce only then going further and rejecting the Old Men for good?
Meanwhile, I detect distinct Edward Albee vibes from Rita and Felix, only Rita is far more assured and together than Martha, and Felix far weaker than George. Right now, my sympathies are more with Rita. As for Libby and Sofie, I’m not just wondering whether they get slashed, I wonder whether this actually will become text. The first two eps seemed to set up Sofie and Ben, but I’m ever so relieved that they go with the more interesting Sofie/Libby in terms of screentime and storytelling instead.
As I didn’t remark on it before: I love the music in this show. When hearing It’s only a Papermoon in episode 8, I had massive Peter Bogdanovich flashbacks, of course, which reminds me that one of these days I must write a post of why Papermoon is such a charming film.
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no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 09:51 am (UTC)This was when I realized the Justin is Superman. The boy from far away with the special powers! The glasses that convince everyone he's mild-mannered Clark Kent! Only Superman is the ultimate Good Immigrant who works for truth, justice and the American way. Justin is a Bad Immigrant who still speaks his own language, has uncertain loyalties and may be subverting the country from within. But yes, still shades of grey.
“The left hand of God” expression from Lonnegan, Texas immediately reminded me of the Neil Gaiman short story Murder Mysteries and the angel – what was his name again – whose function it was to dispense judgment and death (but not always both at the same time).
In the Bible, the right hand of God is Jesus. Ergo, it may be that Justin is the Antichrist - or thinks he is. Also, Benjamin means 'son of the right hand' in Hebrew *g*.
Justin and Iris as Russian imigrant children originally named Alexej and Irina
You mean I love two Irinas now? I couldn't catch her Russian name from my tape copy.
And ever so briefly, I wondered whether we were supposed to deal with two escaped children of the Czar here. But none of the daughters was called Irina, so that’s that. (Still, I wonder whether there is a Rasputin connection?)
I think it's safe to assume their father is the Russian soldier we keep seeing, Scudder's opposite number.
And then there is the ongoing WWI imagery. It’s fascinating that they use it so intensely, because it’s more apart of the European collective consciousness than of the American one, due to terms of involvement.
This show is fascinating to examine in terms of the relationship between America and Europe, on all sorts of levels.
Who knows, the show might go with Ben and Justin both ultimately creating their version of the legendary WWI Christmas truce only then going further and rejecting the Old Men for good?
That might make a very nifty ending *g*.
As for Libby and Sofie, I’m not just wondering whether they get slashed, I wonder whether this actually will become text. The first two eps seemed to set up Sofie and Ben, but I’m ever so relieved that they go with the more interesting Sofie/Libby in terms of screentime and storytelling instead.
*carefully says absolutely nothing*
As I didn’t remark on it before: I love the music in this show.
I really must track down the soundtrack.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 10:15 am (UTC)I rememberd you said that somewhere.*g* And thought of JMS' Supreme Powers, which also tackles the Superman myth, because Justin is even more like Mark there. As you might expect, JMS doesn't think even good immigrants get treated too well if they're all-powerful.
You mean I love two Irinas now? I couldn't catch her Russian name from my tape copy.
I heard it often enough spoken on Alias to recognize it at once.*g* Loved her interplay with the reporter, too.
This show is fascinating to examine in terms of the relationship between America and Europe, on all sorts of levels.
I noticed we hear some German from Lodz and Samson on occasion. Also loved the use of the Soldier Song from the Three Penny Opera, in German, instead of the usual Mack the Knife.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 04:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 07:21 pm (UTC)Immigrants: well, Justin being Russian and Ben being American would make me suspect something on the line of cold war propaganda in another show, but this one has proven itself more subtle than that already. But as I said, I find the WWI imagery striking and very intriguing, and it's interesting that in addition to Justin, we have at least two more immigrants among the regulars.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 07:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 09:28 pm (UTC)Wonderful to read your thoughts. I don't want to say to much because I don't want to spoil you but your comments about WWI and the Russian characters made me think about things you haven't seen yet in new ways. Thanks.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-06 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 04:22 am (UTC)That's an intriguing comparison, actually.
I heard it often enough spoken on Alias to recognize it at once.*g*
You do realies this means all the female characters I've grown attached to recently have the same name? Laura, Laura/Irina, Iris/Irina. I find this faintly disturbing yet very appropriate, somehow.
Loved her interplay with the reporter, too.
Ah, yes. I liked the part of the story too.
While I was watching the show with friends, we ended up yelling at the reporter to run away a lot toward the end of the season. (That's not a spoiler - I just got the sense that there's a cloud of hovering doom around him. Because I'm sure you can predict how happy Justin is going to be when he meets Iris's would-be suitor ...)
I noticed we hear some German from Lodz and Samson on occasion. Also loved the use of the Soldier Song from the Three Penny Opera, in German, instead of the usual Mack the Knife.
At one point, the unofficial Australian national anthem, Waltzing Matilda, is played on a harmonica in the background. Australians seem to find this utterly bewildering - is there an Australian among the carnival denizens? - yet cool.
There's a lot of interesting stuff about 'the old country' and how its issues and conflicts are imported into the immigrant nation that is America. I think one of the things that contemplates the potential Cold War subtext between Ben and Justin is that Scudder hails from somewhere in Europe too, apparently. (Samson seems to think so.)
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 05:01 am (UTC)Very neat coincidence, yes. And hey, this starts to shift your personal percentage in male and female characters, doesn't it? (Incidentally, did you get any further with Alias?)
Because I'm sure you can predict how happy Justin is going to be when he meets Iris's would-be suitor ...
Well, yes.*g* I just watched Insomnia wherein Justin for the first time uses his powers deliberately to cause harm (excluding his childhood sister-saving neck twist, because he was just a little kid then, so that doesn't count). Quite disturbing.
Each time I hear the name "Scudder" I still think of the gamekeeper in Maurice, and hey, date-wise, it could totally be him.*veg*
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 05:11 am (UTC)Yes - I've always said the reason my favourites were mostly men was that most female characters on TV aren't old enough *g*. So glad to find out that this really is indeed the case. (And I still owe owe you that rave.)
(Incidentally, did you get any further with Alias?)
I have sworn not to watch any more until I have written a few livejournal posts I owe people, even though last time I was watching Sydney was about to be frozen. I've been meaning to tell you how great Cipher was, between Jack and Irina meeting on screen (I was not disappointed) and that fabulous scene between Jack and Sloane.
I just watched Insomnia wherein Justin for the first time uses his powers deliberately to cause harm (excluding his childhood sister-saving neck twist, because he was just a little kid then, so that doesn't count). Quite disturbing.
Indeed. He's come to a few conclusions about his purpose in life. Although ... no, not spoiling anything at all. Let's just say I'm eager for you to keep watching.
Each time I hear the name "Scudder" I still think of the gamekeeper in Maurice, and hey, date-wise, it could totally be him.*veg*
Hee. I vote crossover *g*.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 08:44 am (UTC)Jack and Irina, Jack and Sloane, and any combination thereof.*g* Ah, how I love my first generation spies. Anyway, isn't it grand that we have a man and a woman with the type of relationship (complicated backstory, ideological opposition, strangling urges, middle age) previously reserved to males?
Hee. I vote crossover *g*.
Samson: "Kid, time has come for me to come clean about ya old man. See, in the old country, he used to be... a gamekeeper. No, not the one with Lady Chatterley. The other one."
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 10:34 am (UTC)It may be just as well for the world that they're not all on the same side *g*. (At least not at this point in canon.)
Anyway, isn't it grand that we have a man and a woman with the type of relationship (complicated backstory, ideological opposition, strangling urges, middle age) previously reserved to males?
Yes! There is actually a het ship that has the same vibe as my favourite slash ships, finally! In its own special way, of course. A neat thing about having a relationship like this between a man and a woman is that there's a child involved. This adds a whole array of issues that, say, Charles and Erik don't have.
Something I've been contemplating recently is that one of the most awful parts of the situation from Jack's perspective is that, no matter how much 'Laura' hurt him, he can never wish that he hadn't met her. Because that would mean wishing Sydney out of existence, and she's the most important thing in the world to him.
Samson: "Kid, time has come for me to come clean about ya old man. See, in the old country, he used to be... a gamekeeper. No, not the one with Lady Chatterley. The other one."
Oh, boy, I can see the look on Ben's face. I don't know if you've seen the episode where certain things about Scudder's history come out in regard to someone at the carnival, but Ben is not pleased ...
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 06:27 pm (UTC)The world probably is only safe because at various points and on various issues you have Jack and Irina on the same side, or Jack and Sloane on the same side, or Sloane and Irina on the same side, but never all three at once.*g*
A neat thing about having a relationship like this between a man and a woman is that there's a child involved. This adds a whole array of issues that, say, Charles and Erik don't have.
Such as competition, yes. In a way, this is the divorced parents from hell situation (from Sydney's pov).
Something I've been contemplating recently is that one of the most awful parts of the situation from Jack's perspective is that, no matter how much 'Laura' hurt him, he can never wish that he hadn't met her. Because that would mean wishing Sydney out of existence, and she's the most important thing in the world to him.
I'm very carefully not saying anything, just as you didn't say anything re: Carnivale. Have finished the first season now, though irritatingly I got the season 2 opener instead of the season 1 finale. In my review, I separated the opener thoughts far enough from the rest of season 1 thought that you can have a look.