Romanes eunt domus, the series, and a recovering Russian activist

[selenak]

So Netflix is doing the battle of the Teutoburg Forest, are they? I have to confess I am intrigued. Also amused as hell about this being titled as an "untold story". I mean. Perhaps in the Anglosphere. And even there not if you are up on your (spoiler!) catastrophic Roman defeats. Now because good old Arminius has been so horribly used for national propaganda in the 19th and 20th century that post WWII, it became one of those chapters German fictionalizes stayed away from. But it certainly has potential, starting with Arminius - who had been one of those sons of tribe leaders making a career in the Roman army (as did his brother Flavus), only unlike his brother, he famously turned against his Roman overlords. I note the teaser has him wear Roman armor throughout which not only strikes me as realistic (that armor was useful in battle, that's why the Romans had it, and scenes where the side changing assimilated character pus on native gear may be picturesque but also more fairy tale like), but makes me hope for some "from two worlds" exploration, because that's one of my favourite tropes. (As opposed to the 19th century version where he's the Germanest German who ever Germaned from the get go.)

Am also amused at "history's greatest traitor". Excuse you. There are really a lot of other candidates that come to mind, even if you limit it to ancient history. Ah well. It's a teaser's business to hype. Also, I note that we're staying in Arminius' pov throughout the teaser, though Varus tells him he's just like a son to him, so I'm guessing despite the statement we'll probably get mostly the Cheruscan take on the demise of those three legions. If the series is any good, I'd like to point out there are crossover possibilities with I, Claudius for next Yuletide.

On to less fun but very captivating current day history: the first interview Alexei Navalny did (with the Spiegel, though what I linked is the English version, and in which he gets asked about a lot more than whether Putin did it (of course he did).

Comments

[ratcreature]

Yeah, "untold" is not what comes to mind with Arminius. Perhaps it's not quite reaching the King Arthur level, but aren't there several dozen opera adaptations alone?

[selenak]

And the Kleist drama. And the many, many ballads. And a hilarious passage in Heine's "Deutschland: Ein Wintermärchen". And the goddamm statue...

[ratcreature]

Yeah, people have been making fun of others for retelling it too much for over two hundred years now.

[redfiona99]

Is it one of those "English-language media ignores everything not in English" things? Because it's one of those battles!

[selenak]

Indeed it is, and even I, Claudius has an episode in which it plays a central role, so "ignores everything not in English in the last few decades" is probably the issue?

[vilakins]

Varus, Varus, give me back my legions!

[redfiona99]

UK battle history documentaries tend have it as one of their regular topics - Thermopylae, this, Agincourt and Trafalgar tend to be the big four.

[selenak]

Now I'm amused that Trafalgar makes it but Waterloo (not a British-only effort but one in which Wellington was rather glad the Prussians showed up, among others) did not. Nor, it seems, any of the earlier Napoleonic battles that Napoleon won. And since I've been preoccupied with him for the last year: no Frederick the Great, I see. (Does have some UK involvement if that's the criteria, they were allies in the 7 years War though on opposing sides earlier in the Silesian Wars.) Still, Arminius making the cut is good to know.

No question why it's Agincourt over the Battle of Hastings. :)

[redfiona99]

Ignoring Bernard Cornwell, I know nothing about Waterloo (other than "better late than never, Blücher").

We get a little Hastings at school, I have vague memories of "write a newspaper report as though you were at Hastings" in first year high school. I think part of the problem is the main takeaway from Hastings is "Harold, you fell for that trick 3 times?!"

[sovay]

Also amused as hell about this being titled as an "untold story". I mean. Perhaps in the Anglosphere.

Whaaaaat?

"Untold" if you missed that episode of I, Claudius, I guess.

[selenak]

"Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions" as intoned by Brian Blessed is sort of unforgettable, yes. :)

And they definitely can't mean "untold from the German pov", because good lord....

[sovay]

"Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions" as intoned by Brian Blessed is sort of unforgettable, yes.

My father, who watched that series exactly once with me in the mid-'90's, would occasionally quote it when he couldn't find something about the house.

And they definitely can't mean "untold from the German pov", because good lord....

Untold by Netflix, which is all that counts!

(I wrote a poem about it, sort of. A friend of mine had asked what the deal was with the naming of Saturday: "What's a Roman god doing in there with Tyr, Odin, Thor and Freya?" and my brain went all interpretatio germanica on the Teutoburg Forest.)

[selenak]

That's a fantastic poem. The connection between Saturn consuming his children, the other gods/name patrons and the battle is an ingenious one that would never have occured to me and workes beautifully.

[sovay]

That's a fantastic poem. The connection between Saturn consuming his children, the other gods/name patrons and the battle is an ingenious one that would never have occured to me and workes beautifully.

Thank you! I'm very glad.

[yhlee]

Color me interested! Even I've heard of that battle. XD

[selenak]

Of course, a teaser can't tell us anything about how good or bad the acting and scriptwriting will be, but it's certainly a very interesting setting and ample drama to be mined. And I admit when they showed someone wearing the face mask which is the most famous exhibition peace the museum devoted to this battle, at Kalkriese, I was thrilled. They're doing generally well with the costumes, which do look period accurate, not fantasy-styled a la Gladiator.

[sovay]

And I admit when they showed someone wearing the face mask which is the most famous exhibition peace the museum devoted to this battle, at Kalkriese, I was thrilled.

+1.

[lilacsigil]

It's a famous battle and I've never even studied that era of history! But I guess shying away from the Heroic Nationalist Elements makes sense.

[selenak]

One of the rooms of the - excellent - museum in Kalkriese is devoted solely to how the "Hermann" myth was used in propaganda, and, well, it's not pretty. But if you're aware of that as a scriptwriter, you should still be able to create something that makes for a good story.

[watervole]

Real languages!

Whee, this should be good for my German.

I shall look forward to it.

Have you seen 'crash landing on you' on Netflix? In Korean with English subtitles. It's very well acted and the romantic tropes are slightly different. Things go wrong in all kinds of ways for the couple, but they don't have those really annoying misunderstandings that so many US romances depend on. The comedy comes from the supporting characters, who turn out to have more depth than one initially supposes.

[selenak]

Thank you for the rec - I hadn't seen it yet, no!

[mildred_of_midgard]

This is where I admit that as an Anglophone semi-Classicist by training who by and large avoids popular culture, I know *of* Teutoburg Forest, of course, but I would be hard-pressed to *recount* it. My Roman history, somewhat bizarrely, goes up to Actium and picks up again with Marcus Aurelius, with everything in between being kind of hit and miss.

but makes me hope for some "from two worlds" exploration, because that's one of my favourite tropes

And this is what I find so fascinating about the late Roman empire, Stilicho and Flavius Aetius and Alaric and their ilk. It rocked my world to find out how much more complex that period was than popular imagination ("The Goths sacked Rome") would have it.

(As opposed to the 19th century version where he's the Germanest German who ever Germaned from the get go.)

I laughed.

Am also amused at "history's greatest traitor". Excuse you. There are really a lot of other candidates that come to mind, even if you limit it to ancient history.

Alcibiades would like to inquire how many sides this individual betrayed, and how many times he fought on the same side after having been condemned to death by that side. Alcibiades feels his reputation as a professional traitor has been impugned. :D

[selenak]

It rocked my world to find out how much more complex that period was than popular imagination ("The Goths sacked Rome") would have it.

Indeed. You might want to check out the English version of the battle museum website at Kalkriese. It has good stuff, including listing which ancient sources we actually have on the battle, and how reliable they are, a treatise on how the historical Arminius became the mythical Hermann and how that worked out in the last few centuries, background on the Romans on the northern border of the Imperium Romanum during that time, and a report not yet translated into English about the latest find from the battlefield, a roman breast armor.

As to the number of Arminius' betrayals, I suppose that depends on whether your count having fought with distinction in the Roman army, being given Roman citizenship and being made a Roman knight as a betrayal of his tribe, the Cheruscans. Since Arminius' father Sigimer was the leader of the Pro-Roman party among the Cheruscans, it's tough to see it that way unless you employ modern notions of nationality. Conversely, Arminius luring Varus into the Teutoburg forest under the pretense of friendship and teaming up with the Cheruscan auxilia against Marbod of the Markomans, only to make mincemeat of these three legions, works as a betrayal from the Roman pov but not if you assume Arminius' serving with the Romans (for years) as a guise and his primary loyalty always having been to his tribe.

So: one and a half betrayals? One? None? At any rate, he's got nothing on Alcibiades.