January Meme: Selena and the Classics

[selenak]

mildred_of_midgard wanted to know my state of knowledge re: the Ancient World/Classics: where I’m well versed, what I want to learn more about.

Languages: Well, Latin was the first foreign language I learned, and I do have das grosse Latinum, whiich is what they call it if you did seven to nine years of it in grammar school, but that was a life time ago, and I certainly couldn't read Latin now, at least not with a dictionary at my side and without any fun. Greek I don't know at all, to the great distress of my Latin teacher who thought I should have picked Greek, not French, as language No.3 (No.2 was English, which wasn't optional). No Hebrew, either, alas.

Myths: I'm pretty good with Greek and Roman myths, which I first was introduced to via a traditional gift geeky kids used to get for their first communion in my home state of Bavaria, Gustav Schwab's "Greek and Roman Myths". (Think late Victorian retellings of same in English, and you have the equivalent.) I later read Greek and some Roman plays in translation, plus Ovid's versions both in Latin and in translation, and the Iliad and Odyssey in German. I don't think I ever managed the complete Aeneid, as opposed to the retellings from my childhood, but that' partly because the translation situation for the Aeneid is less than stellar in German.

Poetry: Sappho, Alkeios, some Horace, Catullus, Martial, Ovid again.

History: I'm pretty good with the late Roman Republic and the Claudio-Jiulians thath followed, both in terms of primary sources and current day biographies of the most important players. When we get to the Flavians, I've read the Jewish War by Flavius Josephus/Josef ben Matthias, but not his other works. Once the Flavians are over, my knowledge is really sporadic - I don't think I ever read a non-fictional take on Hadrian or Marcus Aurelius, for example -, and the only era of the Byzantine Emperors I'm somewhat better informed in again is the Justinian and Theodora one. I did read the occasional novel about, say, Julian (the Apostate) or Helena the mother of Constantine, as well as Cavafy's withering poetry, but no non-fiction book. Oh, and due to a combination of movies, audio plays and opera, I know a bit about the Attila the Hun era, fiction not fact wise.

What I'd like to learn more about: Mildred has made me curious about the Tetrarchy (Diokletian, Maximinian, and their various junior Emperors), and Mike Walker's audio series Caesar! has gotten me intrigued about both the breakaway Gallic Empire and the melodrama in Constantine's family (his second wife Fausta, daughter of Maximian, got boiled alive after what sounds like a replay of the Phaedra myth involvng her stepson Crispus).

What I already know about but would have fun debating, retelling etc. about to cahn or other unsuspecting victims: We could always do a gossipy sensationalist take on the late Roman Republic, complete with Cicero's letters, Suetonius' biographies and Catullus' poetry. The later in the translation of Roz Kaveney, which I've been meaning to reccomend for a good while now.

Speaking of translations: I would also like to to read Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey, which I've been curious about.

Alternate book club ideas: for current day Aeneid-inspired novels, Jo Graham's "Black Ships" and Ursula Le Guin's "Lavinia": compare and contrast! For example.

Oh, and I suddenly realise, I didn't say anything about Greek history. Okay, here, too, I'm better with novels than with primary sources and biographies. I've yet to read more than excerpts from Plato, for example, and my knowledge of Athens' golden age - Pericles etc. - is school history plus fiction. Dito for the Spartans. I did read some Herodotus.

I would like to know more about: the Persians. I've been meaning to have a go at Tom Holland's book. If anyone has read it, I'd be grateful for impressions.

Lastly: Ancient Egypt. I'm reasonably good with the 18th Dynasty (courtesy of Hatshepsut on the one hand and Akhenaten ont he other), and extremely spotty in the centuries before and after until we get to the Ptolemies.

The other days

Comments

As for me...

[mildred_of_midgard]

Language and Linguistics
It's that thing where I studied Latin for 6 years and got my Greek up to an equivalent proficiency level in a far shorter time (because I was more passionate), tried to keep them up after unversity, and couldn't because the method involved a dictionary and not a lot of fun. Hence they're all rusty now. Ugh. So my PLAN, now that I know a much less masochistic more efficient way of learning languages, is to change that.

Linguistics: WELL. My PhD was in historical linguistics, and although my original research was on the history of English, much of my course and exam work was on Latin and Greek historical linguistics. Furthermore, the only course I ever taught as instructor of record was titled "The Classical Origins of English Vocabulary." So if you want to know how two Latin and/or Greek words are or are not related, or how English words came from Latin or Greek, I know or will find out!

And I can definitely talk about writing systems.

Mythology
Mythology was the area I studied most, albeit many, many years ago. I read a great many of the Greek and Roman sources, sometimes in Greek or Latin. The one thing I'm weak on is a lot of the Roman-specific mythology that's less closely derived from the Greek.

As for revisiting: I'm torn. I studied a fair amount of Homeric scholarship back in the day. I have a six-volume commentary on the Iliad that I acquired only after I read the Iliad in Greek, and have therefore never properly used. While I very much *want* to revisit it, I know that I'll get sucked in at the expense of everything else I want to do, because there is so much, and it's so interesting. Currently trying to put it off until I cover some new ground. (Also, the Scholiasts are apparently only accessible if you're comfortable with Greek, as there is no translation, or I was told in 2005 that there wasn't then. So it's best to hold off until my Greek is better anyway.)

Poetry
I was made to read a ton of poetry, Latin and Greek, and hated everything that wasn't either mythological or Lucretius. ("Pulvis et umbra" has mythological references in the final verse, that's why I like it. :P) Catullus bore the brunt of my fiery passion, because I got an entire semester on Horace and Catullus (Horace is categorized in my head as "could be worse, could be Catullus"), but there were several other poets I hated so much I had rants.

But when it comes to mythological poetry, I was on happier ground. Homer remains the greatest thing I've ever read, in any language, to this day. Sorry, Tolkien! You're second. But if I end up on a desert island, I'm taking Homer. (Preferably after I learn how to read Greek in a less painful way.)

Vergil was less exciting but I still quite liked the Aeneid. I read all of it in English, and about half in Latin.

History
Spotty. Deep in some places, huge gaps in others.

My Greek history is probably stronger than my Latin, especially 5th-4th centuries, but there's some spottiness there too, especially in the golden age of Athens. I read Herodotus and Thucydides, but my memory has faded, and I lacked a bunch of context back then. I definitely want to cover this more and learn it properly this time. This is my number one goal!

My cultural/social history/everyday life history of any place and time is nearly nonexistent, and I'd like to remedy that, especially for 5th and 4th century Athens. I want the geopolitical and military history first, though, as always.

History of scientific progress: less interesting to me than it should be, as you can see from the 18th century. Not totally uninteresting, but not a priority.

Roman history: Ask me about the Punic Wars. :P I will draw you maps of Hannibal's battles! That's probably my deepest period on the Roman side. And I totally want to go back to it, and I'd love to finish reading Polybius.

Circa 100 BCE-100 CE, the period everyone knows, is somehow the one I missed out on. I picked up some by osmosis, because my Latin degree covered primarily Latin literature of the 1st century BCE, but my professors seemed dedicated to making sure we read all our texts in isolation from any context, because otherwise we might accidentally learn something. *bangs head against desk*

On my own, I read some Roman republic history, but mostly the 19th century German scholar Mommsen, hence very out of date scholarship. I gave myself some decently broad coverage of the Romans starting with maybe Marcus Aurelius and running up through Justinian (we'll handwave him as a Roman), but no depth there. Mostly, this was Gibbon (again, out of date, but so much fun), and modern biographies of the major emperors from this period.

I read Suetonius' Twelve Caesars, of course, but what the heck do I remember. That falls under "not my period," which I should remedy. (Sort of out of a sense of obligation, so I'm counting on you to get me interested, Selena.) I skipped Tacitus (except for excerpts, of course) and much of Livy, which a sense of obligation tells me I should read. I did read Plutarch's Lives, more than once, but some of them without enough context to remember them well (I'm pretty good at spotting questions, allusions, and references, though.)

I'm more motivated to beef up my early Roman Republic and later Roman empire, the periods that I read up on on my own.

Diocletian and Maximian: Loyalty kink! Competence kink! Problematic fave kink! <3

Oh, problematic faves:
- Diocletian
- Hannibal
- Alcibiades

:D

Oh, and the Byzantines I know zilch about except by osmosis, after the first few emperors, and someday I should remedy that, because that's kind of an embarrassing gap in my historical background (much like the Crusades).

Literature
Well. I'm not a literature person (see poetry section above). I was made to read a couple of Roman comedies (Plautus and Terence) in Latin, read a couple of the novels (Satyricon, and the Golden Ass) on my own, and read Aristophanes on my own. Hated all of these except that the Plautus was mythological, so it was okay.

I would like to revisit Aristophanes as a source to be mined for Greek history, now that I know something about Greek history, but I'm still not a literature person. The only semester I skipped the official Latin course was the semester I was teased with "We're going to do Lucretius!" and got super excited, then the prof was like, "Nah, I decided that would be too hard for the rest of the students and no1curr, so we'll be doing the Satyricon instead." I was like, "Oh, FUCK no, I hated the Satyricon in English, like hell am I reading it in slow motion in Latin." I wandered off and did some church Latin, like the Rule of St. Benedict and Augustine, in an independent study instead. I stand by that decision. (The history of Christianity is an actual interest of mine.)

I liked the tragedies better, largely because they were mythological, but I never *loved* them.

Oratory
I was *starting* to do a deep dive into 4th century Athenian oratory when Fritz interrupted me. :P I had read a bunch of historical context, 2 of Aeschines' 3 speeches (one I read 10 years ago in Greek), and most of Demosthenes' political speeches. I am passingly familiar with the other orators, and I was just about to finish up Aeschines and Demosthenes and start the others when--salon! (I regret nothing.)

I was made to read some Cicero, without historical context, in college, which frustrated me to no end, because I really wanted to read *all* the Cicero with *all* the context. (If you're wondering why I didn't do it on my own: I got the message from my professors that learning too much context made the Latin easier because you came into the text with some idea already of what it said, and that was bad because it interfered with encountering the material first in Latin. So while they liked it when I knew random things, I was consciously refraining from studying the context that would help me understand a specific work. I am still angry with them about this.) I still plan to read all Cicero with all the context, but only after I read *all* the Aeschines and Demosthenes with *all* the context. (Or at least all the political Demosthenes speeches; not sure how interested I am in the forensic ones. Then again, who could have predicted I would do a deep dive into 1720s diplomacy, so we'll see!)

(Part of the reason I hated the poetry so much was that I felt I was wasting so much time learning Latin slang for oral sex when what I wanted was Lucretius and Cicero. And I did not like Herodotus much, but enjoyed Thucydides, and strongly preferred Polybius to Livy. Yes, I was always the odd one out in the class.)

Philosophy
I've read Lucretius, more than once, but could use a refresher. I still want to read him in Latin, because I never did. I read a whole bunch of Plato, though not all, and several Aristotle's works. All in English. I want to read more Aristotle; not sure about Plato, except for the Symposium. Which I got halfway through in Greek on my own, when I burned out on looking every word up. I am going to do it the right way this time, and I will finish! (In Greek, I mean; I obviously finished it in English. Multiple times.)

I hated the pre-Socratics at the time, but am willing to cover them for cahn. They will probably be more interesting if my professors aren't involved. (I'm starting to think I have a love-hate relationship with my Classics education: I obviously loved it enough that only money stopped me from doing it for a living, but there were also super frustrating experiences, and in hindsight, the fact that I was being actively held back--which I complained about at the time but didn't have the context to really articulate the way I do now--means I have some bitterness about all the years I wasted looking up words in dictionaries and making sure to never ever understand what I was reading. This is why I'm so determined to do it again in a way that will be both fun! and effective!)

I read some Ciceronian philosophy, but wouldn't mind reading more.

Archaeology
I did a couple courses on the Aegean Bronze Age, and I got passionate about it at one point and read quite a lot on my own. Ten years ago, so I've forgotten a ton, but I kind of really do want to revisit it. It's just lower priority behind oratory, history, and learning the languages properly.

Oh, I did do some Mycenaean Greek and Linear B coursework. I in no way have a command of either, but I could teach interesting things in salon.

Art history
Extremely spotty. I could definitely teach interesting things! I could even teach boring things: at one point I got obsessed with a particular statue and got halfway through an original article that I still maintain could be published if I finished it. The big obstacle was that there was exactly one book-length source I needed in order to write a responsible article, and it was in German before I had any ability to read German. I might go back to this article! If I don't write it up formally, I will at least tell you and cahn about my findings. (Um. I hope I still have the draft lying around somewhere with my research. Uh oh.)

But my breadth of art history is extremely full of gaps, and outside of that one statue, my depth is not great even on the stuff I do know. The problem is that for most of my formal education, I confused not liking art, and not liking studying art, with not liking art history. I actually tried to talk the faculty into exempting me from the art history requirement! Once I realized art history was amazing, I started wishing I had majored in it! The only course I made time to go and audit on campus after I was working a 9-5 job was an art history course, because I had just discovered what I'd missed out on. I want more!

Egypt and the Persians
WELL. I know very little about either, but they're categorized in my head with Ancient Near East studies, not Classics, and if we start talking ANES background and interests, that's a whole 'nother post. ;)

In conclusion, this is why your love of literature and knowledge of the peak Roman period are going to complement my background and result in a well-rounded Classical education for everyone in salon. :D

Now if I can just sleep already, so I can resume reading German instead of writing long comments like this!