Ships, II

[selenak]

Children of depressed fathers (well, or uncles), siblings whose brothers were probably the most consistent source of affection for them. Both damaged by war and loss, though she knew her parent figure loved her, and his father realized it too late. Both had sought death, in their way, and had to deal with life instead. Of course they were made for another.
Mind you, I could have done with a little more transition in the House of Healing, but of all of Tolkien’s (few) romances, this is still the only one I find believable in the books. (Pace, Beren/Luthien fans.) (In the films, I also get invested in Arwen/Aragorn, and feel guiltily fascinated by the thought of Eowyn/Grima, but that wasn’t the question.)



They never share a scene, and so it’s all speculation and a few lines of references. I see Winn as initially idolizing Opaka, both for her connection to the Prophets and the fact she was who Winn wanted to be, Kai, and then feeling increasing resentment and frustration for the same reason. Opaka on her part knew that a church, especially in a time of crisis, needed its pragmatists as well as its saints, and secretely favoured Winn as her successor, though Barail was definitely more loved by her as a person. She hoped the two of them would work in tandem, completing each other.




They start out as opposites (male/female, faithful Corps loyalist/ renegade, old/young, hunter/hunted, etc.) and then in a supreme irony of fate end up as almost identical. As the fifth season closes, Lyta wears black leather, forces people who tried to kill her to commit suicide even after they’ve been disarmed, mindmesses with Garibaldi, talks about telepaths as “my people” and thinks that for their larger sake, harming or killing some of them is justified. Sounds familiar?
I don’t think Lyta ever realized. Bester might have, once he was himself on the run after the telepath war, but we’re getting into book canon territory here. In the end, she was his best student, and in a very real sense, they had to destroy each other.




Far more interesting and complicated on screen than in most of the fanfic I’ve read, though admittedly I didn’t read much. They brought up the worst and the best in each other. The fact that they were able to forgive each other was extraordinary. Great chemistry, of course. Even when they were terrible for each other, they were a fascinatingly dysfunctional mess to watch. I don’t see them settling down in an house as a permanent couple, but I could see them as lifelong (Buffy’s life) friends with romantic interludes, which I never would have believed back when the relationship began.



Being both obsessed with Angel was the initial bond, and ultimately the reason why it fell apart. She found him attractive, used him, and probably genuinenly liked him right until the point where he brought Dru to sire her. (Which wasn’t about saving Darla as much as it was about hurting Angel.) He found her fascinating, obsessed about her almost as much as about Angel, and might have had a death wish somewhere along the line. I don’t think they ever had sex; she was experienced enough to realize that he was only in love with the unobtainable, and she needed him to be in love with her most of the time.

Comments

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

I'm now rather curious about Grima/Eowyn. It's a very interesting concept...

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

(re: Buffy/Spike)
Far more interesting and complicated on screen than in most of the fanfic I’ve read, though admittedly I didn’t read much

well said -- I love this 'ship in canon, but it doesn't leave a helluva lot unexplored; it's the 'ship that got me interested in Buffyverse fic, but I decided pretty quickly that there wasn't a lot to do with it besides "creative ways to get them together post-both-series."

can I ask you to rant on Angel/Darla, if you haven't already gotten that one?

[skylee.livejournal.com]

Just want to say that I love the way you described Lindsey/Darla, especially about his motives in bringing in Dru to sire her. He did say later on (can't actually remember which episode, Reunion maybe?) that it wasn't his idea to bring in Dru, but the triumphant look he gave to Angel when he brought Drusilla into the room said volumes. He was at least very much on board with the idea.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Also, consider:

1) In Reunion, Lindsey's landlady Angel questions specifically says the weird English girl, Dru, had been around for WEEKS.

2) When Lindsey finds Darla at the beginning of Trial, he does not present Dru at once, which if his main objective had been to save Darla from dying would have been the obviousl thing to do. No, he waits until

3) Just that moment when Darla says she doesn't want Angel to turn her anymore, that she has accepted her death, and Angel promises to be there for her. Methinks her hotel room was bugged after Lindsey made contact the first time, and the W&H goons were waiting for just that point, so the maximum bad effect on Angel could be reached.

4) And that is, in part, why Lindsey wouldn't have minded Darla killing him later. Because he knew very well he hadn't done it for her.

[skylee.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that, that's really interesting. Lindsey/Darla has always fascinated me, and they make a lot more sense to me now. Especially #4 that you mentioned.

[kathyh]

Thanks for the Lindsey/Darla. I never really get Lindsey at all but it all makes the most sense to me if it's all about Angel all the time. As, in fact, it probably is for both of them.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Mutual fixation, as I said.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I love Eowyn/Faramir! I did think the Houses of Healing bit went a bit fast, but I'm glad my favorite lines stayed in, even if they moved to an earlier point in the story. (Observant readers will note that I've borrowed the lines for Neas in Black Ships...) I'm glad you like this ship too!

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts on the Winn/Opaka relationship. I'm fascinated by it, since it seems so important, but we're given so little in canon to work with.

increasing resentment and frustration for the same reason.

I think Winn needs to love and hate at the same time. I don't think she'd be able to care about someone without resenting the very qualities that draw her to that person. Another reason Dukat is the perfect partner for her. If she's going to hate whoever she's with as well as loving him, it might as well be someone who deserves it.

secretely favoured Winn as her successor, though Barail was definitely more loved by her as a person

I'm so with you there. I don't think either Winn or Bareil knew it, though. And it does add a rather poigniant dimension to the dynamic in 'The Collaborator.' I don't think Bareil would have fought Winn for the kaiship against Opaka's wishes.

This is the enigma of Opaka - she never really makes clear what she wants (aside from 'to serve the Prophets'), let alone fights for it. If you threw her into Babylon 5, she'd be completely Morden-resistent.

She hoped the two of them would work in tandem, completing each other.

Maybe she saw their chemistry too. ;)

I also wonder if, since Opaka seems very like Bareil, Opaka also was trying to cultivate Winn as a partner and support for her. (Not necessarily in a slashy sense, more in a political sense.) If so Opaka was probably very disappointed.