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selenakWhy liraen wanted to know.
Here's what I haven't watched: the 1981 BBC series The Borgias, and the movie Prince of Foxes, though I do want to see the later, not because I expect it to have to do anything with history, but because Orson Welles plays Cesare. I did watch a French or Spanish miniseries about the Borgias, but that one was so unmemorable that I can't recall anything about it. Which leaves me with the two tv series who premiered in 2011: Showtime's The Borgias, created by Neil Jordan (Rodrigo: Jeremy Irons), and Borgia by Tom Fontana (Rodrigo: John Dorman), broadcast across various European channels. Now back in the day when both shows were in their first season, or had just concluded it, a post was making the rounds which strongly critisized The Borgias while praising Borgia for its "historicity". I found the essay in question so obnoxious, and didn't like the Borgia pilot, that I didn't watch Borgia for years. However, I did watch it some years later, when it was for a while free on Amazon Prime, and found to my surprise I liked it, though certainly not for more "historicity". (Any version of the Borgia tale that has Cesare sacrificing his first born baby so Dad can become Pope (don't worry, someone saves the Baby) in s1, and has in s2 Cardinals seriously debating to keep on Lucrezia in her father's job since she's doing such a good job filling in for him has no room to boast in that regard.) For a detailed review by yours truly of its three seasons, see here.
Years passing also helped me to get over my extreme annoyance and disappointment with The Borgias' third season (a few scenes and one or two episodes excepted). Overall, I'm still quite fond of that show, though in retrospect, you can see signs of the declline in s2 already; I suspect Neil Jordan had the first season - which I still love to pieces - mapped out from start to finish, started improvising and handing over responsibilities in s2, and in s3 wasn't even trying anymore, which is why a lot of it feels the laziest fanfiction. So, looking back, what are my likes and dislikes?
Both shows have different stories to tell, using history and fantasy, and when I say "stories", I'm not just referring to the fact Borgia has Rodrigo dying mid s3, and ends with Cesare's death (or does it?) , whereas The Borgias stops after Cesare's victory over Caterina Sforza and the murder of Lucrezia's second husband. (Husband No.3 does not show up in the series at all.) While The Borgias were cancelled, it still feels like a fitting ending for the overall story Jordan shaped it into, which is basically Michael Corleone's arc from the first two Godfather movies; Jordan's Borgias start as a close-knit family, rise to power and manage to outwit and defeat all their enemies, but in the process lose each other. The process isn't completed yet when its third season ends, but you can see where it's going. Fontana's Borgias, otoh, start estranged and/or unacknowledged and end up actually closer than the way more dysfunctional Este family Lucrezia marries into in her third and final marriage, but doesn't really tie this emotional development to the gaining and losing of power. What it does parallel and contrast are the Farnese and the Borgias, with Alessandro and Giulia starting out as dependents and junior sidekicks but by the end are the future Pope and his consigliere.
On to detailed likes and dislikes:
The Borgias:
Likes:
- the relationships between its female characters are never clichéd - Giulia Farnese doesn't gloat or antagonize Vannozza, and I'll always regret that narrative attention wanders off after s1 from her delightful friendship with Lucrezia; otoh, I'm glad Vannozza's narrative role only increases from season to season, and Lucrezia going from naive young girl to power player is very well played by Holiday Grainger, who really came to my attention in this show
- Jeremy Irons is great as Rodrigo Borgia/Pope Alexander VI, despite looking nothing like him; what I really dig is that this series' Rodrigo is both into power, uses simony, nepotism etc, and is actually a sincere believer (which is why one of the few things I like about s3 is the way it handles Rodrigo having a massive religious crisis because he could not feel God when he almost died between seasons), does love his children and has massive blind spots about them, can't keep it in his pants and likes women way beyond having sex with them
- I liked the Cesare/Lucrezia relationship in the first two seasons (more about them in s3 under "dislikes"), in its intensity and mutual adoration
- the show's Caterina Sforza is fabulous (all hail Gina McKee), and I'm very fond of its Cardinal Ascanio Sforza as well
- the show's Micheletto is a compelling character in his own right, not just as a comment on Cesare, and the series made me care about him and his relationships from start to finish
- the Cesare & Rodrigo father/son relationship in its ups and downs; two of the series' most outstanding scenes (Cesare confessing his murder of Juan in the s2 finale, and their reconciliation in the one s3 episode I really love, The Gunpowder Plot deal with it
- Lotte Verbeek's Giulia Farnese has a completely different background to the historical one, but she's incredibly charming and compelling in the role, and also, the s1 scene where she tells Rodrigo she's menunstrating and Rodrigo's response gets my vote for sexiest scene in this show, proving that eroticism has nothing to do with how much nude flesh you show
- the series showing the increasing fascination and excitement at the rediscovery of antiquities
- "sprezzatura"
- the show including the Jews (and the fact they had to leave Spain but were accepted in Rome) in a story-relevant and interesting way, and Rodrigo using his secret Jewish buisiness partner as an impromptu therapist for his relationship with Cesare both touches and amuses me
- Micheletto's and Lucrezia's later s3 friendship
Dislikes:
- first and foremost: Cesare/Lucrezia in s3, which for my money is still how NOT to do canon incest. It really is like terrible fanfiction, complete with vilification of canon love interest coming between the OTP and contrived plot so Character A doesn't have strong feelings for, or indeed sex with the canon love interest (poor Alfonso d'Aragon, historically the husband Lucrezia actually loved, who wasn't anything like the show's version and certainly had no problem consumating his marriage)
- first Gioffre and Sancia disappear without any explanation as characters in s2, and then in s3 we get a completely new Naples ruling family which has neither anything to do with history or with s1 show history, wtf?
- Cesare killing Giovanni Sforza in s2; Giovanni Sforza's s1 humiliation and exit was far more satisfying (not to mention historical), and this didn't add anything
- firstly, that the show doesn't seem to know what to do with Giulia Farnese in s2 (after giving her such a strong part in s1), and in s3 writes her out, secondly, that Alessandro Farnese's existence isn't mentioned until s3, and then he's a nonety (which even his worst enemies would not claim he was), while we have to put up with some completely fictional royals in Naples
- seriously: Naples in s3 - what even? Show, your s1 Naples was hardly hardcore realism, but it was recognizable, and also very entertaining, so I really don't get what you were doing there
I am completely unbothered by: Handel played in St. Peter(and it being the wrong St. Peter) for Rodrigo's coronation. Yes, it's music from the wrong era, and of course pre-Bramante & Michelangelo St. Peter did not look anything like this. But honestly, I did not mind a bit.
Borgia:
Likes:
- the show's Giulia Farnese is a way darker character than both her Borgias and her historical counterparts, but within this version, she works, and I really like how the show makes her relationship with Alessandro the other important brother & sister relationship of the series
- Rodrigo's older illegitimate children (the one pre and not by Vannozza) get not jut mentioned but used in interesting ways that give both this show's Lucrezia and its Rodrigo some terrific scenes
- Rodrigo's fictional Faithful Lieutenant Garcet, his gay boyhood friend from Spain who is a converted Muslim (and goes back to being a Muslim in the last season); his relationship with Rodrigo and his general competence are one of my favourite things about the show
- the Cesare and Alessandro Farnese relationship;liraen has pointed out that Alessandro was a few years older so can't have literally been Cesare's classmate at Pisa, but the show introducing them (and Giovanni de' Medici) as such provides a great background for the ups and downs of their relationship throughout the show, best summarized by a frustrated Alessandro in s3, when he is stuck with having to defend Cesare (worst client ever!) at a show trial instigated by Pope Juliius: "I've tried being your friend, I've tried being your enemy, I've tried to be indifferent, I've tried to be just a business partner, but nothing ever works with you!"
- in a show with way more cruelty and violence than The Borgias, Lucrezia's development actually is breathtakingly uncynical and endearing; she goes from somewhat spoiled brat to a woman whose response to having killed is to conclude this is what she doesn't want her life to be, and who in order to not repeat such developments does her best to improve relations in both her mess of a birth family and her mess of an in-law family; note that this isn't a classic "repentant sinner" type of story (which has been used with Lucrezia Borgia in the 19th century), it's a "growing into herself and discovering who she wants to be" type of tale
- nifty Renaissance details such as Lucrezia's third father-in-law collecting nuns with stigmata
Dislikes
- I'm prepared for melodrama in any version of The Borgias, but Cesare going Abraham with his baby in s1 was just too much, as was his skinning his enemies in s3
- the s2 drug addiction plot for Giulia and Rodrigo
- the first season going from hardly giving Cesare and Lucrezia any scenes together to suddenly let them declare everyone thinks they're having sex already, so they might as well in the s1 finale (only to be interrupted after a kiss; they never try again); subsequent seasons deal with the relationship way better by actually showing the two close and giving them plenty of scenes together
- the show's Micheletto who is just a weird masked guy without any personality who starts by working for Jiuan, then switches to Cesare, then disappears completely - wtf?
- no friendships between female characters to speak of, instead, it's rivalries (open and hidden) all the way; boo, hiss
I am neutral about: This show's Rodrigo actually having incesteous feelings for Lucrezia. What makes it work within the showverse is that this is the one urge he doesn't give into but represses and copes with by trying to be a better father, which given that otherwise, he and most of the other characters are all "want, take, have" makes it an unexpected and character deepening twist. Otoh, leaving side that I don't think historical Rodrigo had anything but normal fatherly feelings for his daughter, at times this story element, like the surprise!kiss between Cesare and Lucrezia in the s1 finale, comes across as just being there because it's the Borgias, and people used to the pop culture image, which is the majority of the viewers, expect incest in some way or form.
The other days
liraen wanted to know. Here's what I haven't watched: the 1981 BBC series The Borgias, and the movie Prince of Foxes, though I do want to see the later, not because I expect it to have to do anything with history, but because Orson Welles plays Cesare. I did watch a French or Spanish miniseries about the Borgias, but that one was so unmemorable that I can't recall anything about it. Which leaves me with the two tv series who premiered in 2011: Showtime's The Borgias, created by Neil Jordan (Rodrigo: Jeremy Irons), and Borgia by Tom Fontana (Rodrigo: John Dorman), broadcast across various European channels. Now back in the day when both shows were in their first season, or had just concluded it, a post was making the rounds which strongly critisized The Borgias while praising Borgia for its "historicity". I found the essay in question so obnoxious, and didn't like the Borgia pilot, that I didn't watch Borgia for years. However, I did watch it some years later, when it was for a while free on Amazon Prime, and found to my surprise I liked it, though certainly not for more "historicity". (Any version of the Borgia tale that has Cesare sacrificing his first born baby so Dad can become Pope (don't worry, someone saves the Baby) in s1, and has in s2 Cardinals seriously debating to keep on Lucrezia in her father's job since she's doing such a good job filling in for him has no room to boast in that regard.) For a detailed review by yours truly of its three seasons, see here.
Years passing also helped me to get over my extreme annoyance and disappointment with The Borgias' third season (a few scenes and one or two episodes excepted). Overall, I'm still quite fond of that show, though in retrospect, you can see signs of the declline in s2 already; I suspect Neil Jordan had the first season - which I still love to pieces - mapped out from start to finish, started improvising and handing over responsibilities in s2, and in s3 wasn't even trying anymore, which is why a lot of it feels the laziest fanfiction. So, looking back, what are my likes and dislikes?
Both shows have different stories to tell, using history and fantasy, and when I say "stories", I'm not just referring to the fact Borgia has Rodrigo dying mid s3, and ends with Cesare's death (or does it?) , whereas The Borgias stops after Cesare's victory over Caterina Sforza and the murder of Lucrezia's second husband. (Husband No.3 does not show up in the series at all.) While The Borgias were cancelled, it still feels like a fitting ending for the overall story Jordan shaped it into, which is basically Michael Corleone's arc from the first two Godfather movies; Jordan's Borgias start as a close-knit family, rise to power and manage to outwit and defeat all their enemies, but in the process lose each other. The process isn't completed yet when its third season ends, but you can see where it's going. Fontana's Borgias, otoh, start estranged and/or unacknowledged and end up actually closer than the way more dysfunctional Este family Lucrezia marries into in her third and final marriage, but doesn't really tie this emotional development to the gaining and losing of power. What it does parallel and contrast are the Farnese and the Borgias, with Alessandro and Giulia starting out as dependents and junior sidekicks but by the end are the future Pope and his consigliere.
On to detailed likes and dislikes:
The Borgias:
Likes:
- the relationships between its female characters are never clichéd - Giulia Farnese doesn't gloat or antagonize Vannozza, and I'll always regret that narrative attention wanders off after s1 from her delightful friendship with Lucrezia; otoh, I'm glad Vannozza's narrative role only increases from season to season, and Lucrezia going from naive young girl to power player is very well played by Holiday Grainger, who really came to my attention in this show
- Jeremy Irons is great as Rodrigo Borgia/Pope Alexander VI, despite looking nothing like him; what I really dig is that this series' Rodrigo is both into power, uses simony, nepotism etc, and is actually a sincere believer (which is why one of the few things I like about s3 is the way it handles Rodrigo having a massive religious crisis because he could not feel God when he almost died between seasons), does love his children and has massive blind spots about them, can't keep it in his pants and likes women way beyond having sex with them
- I liked the Cesare/Lucrezia relationship in the first two seasons (more about them in s3 under "dislikes"), in its intensity and mutual adoration
- the show's Caterina Sforza is fabulous (all hail Gina McKee), and I'm very fond of its Cardinal Ascanio Sforza as well
- the show's Micheletto is a compelling character in his own right, not just as a comment on Cesare, and the series made me care about him and his relationships from start to finish
- the Cesare & Rodrigo father/son relationship in its ups and downs; two of the series' most outstanding scenes (Cesare confessing his murder of Juan in the s2 finale, and their reconciliation in the one s3 episode I really love, The Gunpowder Plot deal with it
- Lotte Verbeek's Giulia Farnese has a completely different background to the historical one, but she's incredibly charming and compelling in the role, and also, the s1 scene where she tells Rodrigo she's menunstrating and Rodrigo's response gets my vote for sexiest scene in this show, proving that eroticism has nothing to do with how much nude flesh you show
- the series showing the increasing fascination and excitement at the rediscovery of antiquities
- "sprezzatura"
- the show including the Jews (and the fact they had to leave Spain but were accepted in Rome) in a story-relevant and interesting way, and Rodrigo using his secret Jewish buisiness partner as an impromptu therapist for his relationship with Cesare both touches and amuses me
- Micheletto's and Lucrezia's later s3 friendship
Dislikes:
- first and foremost: Cesare/Lucrezia in s3, which for my money is still how NOT to do canon incest. It really is like terrible fanfiction, complete with vilification of canon love interest coming between the OTP and contrived plot so Character A doesn't have strong feelings for, or indeed sex with the canon love interest (poor Alfonso d'Aragon, historically the husband Lucrezia actually loved, who wasn't anything like the show's version and certainly had no problem consumating his marriage)
- first Gioffre and Sancia disappear without any explanation as characters in s2, and then in s3 we get a completely new Naples ruling family which has neither anything to do with history or with s1 show history, wtf?
- Cesare killing Giovanni Sforza in s2; Giovanni Sforza's s1 humiliation and exit was far more satisfying (not to mention historical), and this didn't add anything
- firstly, that the show doesn't seem to know what to do with Giulia Farnese in s2 (after giving her such a strong part in s1), and in s3 writes her out, secondly, that Alessandro Farnese's existence isn't mentioned until s3, and then he's a nonety (which even his worst enemies would not claim he was), while we have to put up with some completely fictional royals in Naples
- seriously: Naples in s3 - what even? Show, your s1 Naples was hardly hardcore realism, but it was recognizable, and also very entertaining, so I really don't get what you were doing there
I am completely unbothered by: Handel played in St. Peter(and it being the wrong St. Peter) for Rodrigo's coronation. Yes, it's music from the wrong era, and of course pre-Bramante & Michelangelo St. Peter did not look anything like this. But honestly, I did not mind a bit.
Borgia:
Likes:
- the show's Giulia Farnese is a way darker character than both her Borgias and her historical counterparts, but within this version, she works, and I really like how the show makes her relationship with Alessandro the other important brother & sister relationship of the series
- Rodrigo's older illegitimate children (the one pre and not by Vannozza) get not jut mentioned but used in interesting ways that give both this show's Lucrezia and its Rodrigo some terrific scenes
- Rodrigo's fictional Faithful Lieutenant Garcet, his gay boyhood friend from Spain who is a converted Muslim (and goes back to being a Muslim in the last season); his relationship with Rodrigo and his general competence are one of my favourite things about the show
- the Cesare and Alessandro Farnese relationship;
liraen has pointed out that Alessandro was a few years older so can't have literally been Cesare's classmate at Pisa, but the show introducing them (and Giovanni de' Medici) as such provides a great background for the ups and downs of their relationship throughout the show, best summarized by a frustrated Alessandro in s3, when he is stuck with having to defend Cesare (worst client ever!) at a show trial instigated by Pope Juliius: "I've tried being your friend, I've tried being your enemy, I've tried to be indifferent, I've tried to be just a business partner, but nothing ever works with you!" - in a show with way more cruelty and violence than The Borgias, Lucrezia's development actually is breathtakingly uncynical and endearing; she goes from somewhat spoiled brat to a woman whose response to having killed is to conclude this is what she doesn't want her life to be, and who in order to not repeat such developments does her best to improve relations in both her mess of a birth family and her mess of an in-law family; note that this isn't a classic "repentant sinner" type of story (which has been used with Lucrezia Borgia in the 19th century), it's a "growing into herself and discovering who she wants to be" type of tale
- nifty Renaissance details such as Lucrezia's third father-in-law collecting nuns with stigmata
Dislikes
- I'm prepared for melodrama in any version of The Borgias, but Cesare going Abraham with his baby in s1 was just too much, as was his skinning his enemies in s3
- the s2 drug addiction plot for Giulia and Rodrigo
- the first season going from hardly giving Cesare and Lucrezia any scenes together to suddenly let them declare everyone thinks they're having sex already, so they might as well in the s1 finale (only to be interrupted after a kiss; they never try again); subsequent seasons deal with the relationship way better by actually showing the two close and giving them plenty of scenes together
- the show's Micheletto who is just a weird masked guy without any personality who starts by working for Jiuan, then switches to Cesare, then disappears completely - wtf?
- no friendships between female characters to speak of, instead, it's rivalries (open and hidden) all the way; boo, hiss
I am neutral about: This show's Rodrigo actually having incesteous feelings for Lucrezia. What makes it work within the showverse is that this is the one urge he doesn't give into but represses and copes with by trying to be a better father, which given that otherwise, he and most of the other characters are all "want, take, have" makes it an unexpected and character deepening twist. Otoh, leaving side that I don't think historical Rodrigo had anything but normal fatherly feelings for his daughter, at times this story element, like the surprise!kiss between Cesare and Lucrezia in the s1 finale, comes across as just being there because it's the Borgias, and people used to the pop culture image, which is the majority of the viewers, expect incest in some way or form.
The other days
no subject
Date: 2022-01-15 09:12 am (UTC)