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selenakBabylon Squared: aka the one JMS expects you to remember once you're watching the third season, and in detail. :) Seriously now, I love this one both on its own account and what it delops into later in the story. Said love increases upon rewatching it. When I saw it the first time, it was the dubbed version on German tv, and thus I missed one minor but important fact, i.e. whom aged!Sinclair near the end of the episode is talking to. This is because Mira Furlan has an unmistakable voice and accent, but the German dubbed voice for Delenn, not so much. So I completely missed out the fact it's Delenn's voice until s3 came along, and thus, of course, also didn't see the connection between this episode's A and B plot.
One element that makes this episode great is that it's not all arc, all the time though, it also has these lovely little character moments as well. Sinclair and Garibaldi teasing Ivanova, the "fasten/zip" conversation between Garibaldi and Sinclair en route to Babylon 4. Speaking of which: the disappearance of Babylon 4 had been mentioned in the pilot, but first time watcher!me had never expected on actually getting an explanation for it. I thought it was just background story to make the viewers be concerned about Babylon 5. This episode is where I found out otherwise. Something much younger me also expected, due to the fact that most times another captain shows up in the first two Star Trek shows, there's a conflict with "our" captain preprogrammed, was the B4 commander distrusting Sinclair or refusing to work with him or what not, but no such thing. Instead, everyone is professional, since it's really not that kind of story. What struck me this time around is that the opening, with the unfortunate star fury pilot who died of old age, establishes from the get go that whatever is going on is dangerous and comes with a price. This is important because among other things, the episode introduces the possibility of time travel in the B5 verse - since clearly, just days passed for the B4 crew, so they and their station moved through time - , and once you do that, you need to show why it's not something everyone can or wants to do.
Making the character of Zathras the one providing exposition and filling the audience in on the fact there's a terrible war in the future (or in the past) between the forces of darkness and light is JMS showing his Tolkien colors again, but with a humor of his own. (Tolkien never handed exposition duties to Sam or Pippin.) Mind you, it's going to be a bit more complicated than that, but for now, we're pointed towards a certain type of epic story, and while the reveal of Sinclair at the end wasn't exactly unexpected for yours truly the first time it happened - come on, he was the lead of the show, and Zathras so pointedly avoided saying whether he was talking about the past or the future - what did surprise me was that he was aged, and I thought: just how much time does this series think it will cover? (More about this in the spoilery section.) What I had forgotten until this rewatch, and what I think I also had forgotten the first time I rewatched, decades ago, was that Garibaldi's flashback with Lise revealed he'd only met Sinclair two times before agreeing to come to B5 with him. The reason I keep forgetting this is because the Sinclair and Garibaldi friendship always feels like it's grounded on many years together for me, but I have to face it: canon says it was essentially forged on the station, since while the preceding two meetings were undoubtedly significant to them, they can't have created the deep trust they have in each other.
Re: Sinclair's flash forward, that, too, I'll talk about in the spoilery section below, since I can't discuss it without those.
Meanwhile on a Minbari cruiser: see, the first time I watched this, I thought, eh, a bit predictable, because of course Delenn won't become head of the council and quit her ambassadorial day job, she's in the credits! Basically, it felt like those several TNG episodes where Riker gets a chance at promotion and becoming captain of his own ship and passes, as you know he will, because Jonathan Frakes is in the credits right after Patrick Stewart. A filler story, I thought, unlike the A plot. Whereas the second time I watched, and now, I'm aware there will indeed be follow up on Delenn's decision here - just as there will be on her earlier high handed treatment of Neroon in "Legacies" - , and that thus this entire subplot isn't a filler but highly relevant to the continuing story. But even without such knowledge, let's talk a bit about what's going on here: Delenn finds out she has been voted for as leader of her people, and declines, and not because she feels not worthy/is humble/anything like that, but because she wants to stay on Babylon 5, she feels that's her mission in life, and in addition to her own feeling, she invokes "the Prophecy" by Valen regarding the humans as needing her to see it through. Because Delenn argues this in a speech that's highly flattering to the human species, telling her fellow council members how fabulous they are, it's easy to miss that she never answers the council member who says "let the Prophecy attend to itself".
I've talked about this earlier when reviewing "Signs and Portents" - how fixed is the future in the B5 verse? Because as with every fictional universe where individuals catch a glimpse at the future, it also becomes a question of free will. In the A Plot, an aged Sinclair says he tried to "warn them" but it all happened again as he recalled it would. Otoh, Lady Morella in "Signs and Portents" told Sinclair there were various possible futures. Londo, of course, is convinced his death dream shows exactly how he (and G'Kar) will die. Now, when Delenn here argues "the prophecy" needs her involvement to happen, and you are a new watcher: do you/did you think she means it and/or that this is her primary motivation, or that it is simply the most acceptable one to tell her fellow Council Members, because refusing to lead them simply because "I like being ambassador on Babylon 5 much better" would be too egotistical?
For the record, personally, I do think Delenn is sincerely convinced that the prophecy needs her on B5, but I also think if there had been no prophecy, she'd found another reason, because Delenn has this ironclad conviction of her path in life, blut she hails from a society with an ideal of public service, and "I don't want to!" is very much not that. (It's herself she has to tell a second reason to as much as her fellow Minbari.) All this said, of course I agree Delenn made the right decision here, and not just because I know the rest of the show. Becoming head of government is not something anyone can or should to half-heartedly, and if you can't commit to such a job 100%, you really have no business doing it, because you're bound to do more damage than good in it. Still, discussing with fellow council members who else would be a good candidate to lead, thus showing interest in the future of her people beyond prophecies, would hardly have gone amiss.
And now on to spoilers for the rest of the show. New watchers, skip the the next episode.
In
Valen's
Name!
andraste pointed out to me that the future Sinclair sees here in his flash foward, where Garibaldi sacrifices himself covering the retreat of people evacuating, never comes to pass, and also that Sinclair in s3's "War without End" explicitly says this is the reason why he ensures Garibaldi won't come on the mission. Which makes Sinclair the one person on this show who catches a glimpse of the future, decides to prevent said future and actually succeeds. (As opposed to Sheridan going to Z'ha'dum to avoid the future he's seen in "War without End", but instead his action contributes to it.) Now, JMS had to rearrange Sinclair's storyline due to Michael O'Hare's health, so in theory, this might not have happened if Sinclair had remained the show's lead, but in practice, given how everything else plays out, I'm tending to assume Garibaldi would have been saved in any case, since he's involved in the events of all five seasons. Meaning you can change the future on this show, it is not fixed.Now, if Delenn had let the Prophecy attend to itself and become leader of the Grey Council instead of returning to B5: how would this have altered future events? I think the Minbari Civil War would still have happened at some point down the line because the rift between Warrior Caste and Religious Caste is already very deep, and Delenn isn't helping there. Sinclair presumably would still have had basically the same story, but: without personally knowing Delenn, would Sheridan have been able to ally with the Minbari once the political developments on Earth became clear to him?
Between
the Candle
and
the Light
The Quality of Mercy: When I first watched this episode, I hated the main plot but adored the subplot with Londo and Lennier. The reason why I disliked the main plot so much was because I saw it as a blatant advertisement of the death penalty, with the serial killer Evil McEvil (and hey, German name to boot), set on nothing but murdering more people, and killed off so a saintly selfless woman can live in a way that has no rl equivalent. I also thought that the whole "death of personality"/mind wipe concept was deeply disturbing and thrown at us without bothering with any of the implications. Now, knowing the rest of the show and specifically the s3 episode Passing through Gethsemane, which revisits the "Death of Personality" penalty and all the implications in great detail, I know the episode wasn't written with such an agenda, and I can watch it more objectively. I still think that making Mülller such an evil serial killer cliché is, shall we say, less than subtle, but what this episode does is establish it's possible in the B5 verse to completely destroy someone's personality and implant a different one. Which will become highly relevant, alas. It also makes sense that a society where this can be done would use it as an alternative to the physical death penalty, and let's face it: like many a future society, humanity as present in the B5 verse is basically the America of its day writ large, which means complete avoidance of either physical or mental death isn't even considered.
The subplot of Laura Rosen serves mostly as foreshadowing - her addition to stims brought about by her dedication to healing above and beyond, and the healing machine, with Franklin's "maybe we'll use it one day when all other hope is lost" being less than subtle, too - but I like the worldbuilding that lies in establishing medical care on the station which in theory should be for everyone is in practice often not accessible for the poor in Down Below, hence Franklin's free clinic there (and Laura Rosen's healing practice).
However, the real reason why I did not skip the episode entirely on this rewatch is, of course, the Londo & Lennier subplot. Incidentally, when Londo talks to a at this point unnamed Centauri official at the start of the episode I heard the voice, squinted and said: "Is that Virini? Great Maker, it is, isn't it! Awwwww." Which is very much a reaction depending on the rest of the show. :) Seriously though, it reminds me of Braca on Farscape - here's a character where the actor originally was hired just to deliver a line or two and show some facial reactions, and then this unexpectedly turns into a several season gig and an actual character with affecting scenes in the long run.
Londo introducing Lennier to the dubious joys of strip clubs and poker playing, Lennier revealing being raised in a Minbari monastery also means being kung fu trained, and Londo cheating at cards by using a primary sexual organ: all golden. (
andraste invented the highly useful term "brachiarte" for the six tentacles male Centauri have, which I'm happy to say subsequently became fanon.) As the statue of Li which we've already seen in "Parliament of Dreams" early in the season demonstrates, this was something JMS had in mind from the get go, not a spur of the moment improvisation, and I think for me as a viewer it was the first time a human-looking alien race on sci fi tv was shown to actually physically different, and not in a "oh, the Vulcans have an inner eyelid preventing blinding!" way but in a way that really does make a big difference. Sometimes I wonder how the evolutionary process worked on that one, given six tentacles seem to be far more, hm, vulnerable to hostile intentions (easier to grab and cut off), and the Centauri did evolve during a fight to the death with the other sentient species on their home planet, after all.Lastly, Lennier helping Londo save face: Awwwwwwwww. That Lennier is sure he won't have to explain anything to Delenn, btw, also shows they've come a good way from the shy boy who didn't dare to look at her when he arrived on the station. But really, it's just basic niceness and decency (not to be confused with being a pushover, see: kung fu Lennier!), and tells us something important about Lennier at this point.
Next week: the s1 finale, and now I'll go and make a schedule for s2.
The other episodes
Spoilers will go after a ~~~~
Date: 2022-01-23 11:37 pm (UTC)Re: 6 - I wonder if they're redundant organs so if one is removed, the other 5 can still function. So yes, more bits are vulnerable but you'd be unlucky for all 6 to be damaged at once (if they are retractable, why do I think they're retractable?)
~~~~
Re: Delenn, I think partly it's "This needs to go right and the only way I can be sure/surer of that is if I'm the one that does it" which is egocentric but in a slightly different way.
To an extent, if it's not Delenn, the question of who becomes the Minbari ambassador probably affects that. Because it will probably (?) be someone from the Religious caste, and probably from the Grey Council as well. And I seem to recall them being quite ... severe. So that would probably make things more difficult but if they kept Lennier as their aide, Delenn would/could probably act through him which might keep the "major" arc in more or less the same shape. As you say Sheridan, or Sheridan when Anna arrives, could be different in interesting ways. Would Kosh have enough influence on him?
Re: Spoilers will go after a ~~~~
Date: 2022-01-24 01:05 pm (UTC)They're retractable - we see Londo do it, after all, once he's caught - we just don't know the shortest they can get.
As you say Sheridan, or Sheridan when Anna arrives, could be different in interesting ways. Would Kosh have enough influence on him?
I have my doubts. I mean, Sheridan clearly would have been against the Clark regime no matter what, but without trusting the Minbari Ambassador the way he trusted Delenn, for example, I can see him retain Morden in prison, to pick a situation from early on.
Re: Spoilers will go after a ~~~~
Date: 2022-01-24 02:40 pm (UTC)I can’t recall if the episode’s come up yet (I don’t think it has), but Vir at one point tells Ivanova that each one has different sensations and represents a different level of intimacy; what that means in terms of reproductive function, I don’t know.
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Date: 2022-01-24 02:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-01-24 01:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-01-24 05:29 am (UTC)B^2 blew my brain, to the point where I MAY ONLY BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT IN ALL CAPS. THAT MOMENT WHERE THE ONE RAISED HIS HELMET AND IT WAS SINCLAIR. THE MOMENT RIGHT AFTER WHERE SOMEONE TALKED TO HIM AND WAS THAT DELENN?? (I did not see it coming AT ALL, at least partially because I took at face value the part where Zathras was like "No. You are not the One" to Sinclair.) The flash-forwards???? (So I actually didn't realize they were flash-forwards until poking at the Lurker's Site afterwards -- I mean, it crossed my mind, but I had convinced myself they were AUs, probably as a result of watching Fringe a few years back.)
WHAT EVEN IS GOING ON
WHAT EVEN WITH THAT FLASH-FORWARD WITH GARIBALDI accepting his destiny in what sounds like an immensely tragic way?? It is hitting me right in the feels and I don't even know what is going on??
Also, maybe if I'd been able to find the pilot this would have made more sense, but I found it totally hilarious where apparently B4 just... disappeared??... and everyone was like "Welp! Too bad! Better start on building the next one, then!" Like... really??
Now, when Delenn here argues "the prophecy" needs her involvement to happen, and you are a new watcher: do you/did you think she means it and/or that this is her primary motivation, or that it is simply the most acceptable one to tell her fellow Council Members, because refusing to lead them simply because "I like being ambassador on Babylon 5 much better" would be too egotistical?
Oh, I felt like the show (as well as Delenn's actress) has done a really good job of portraying Delenn as someone who has complex motivations, so while I think that she does mean it about the prophecy, I also thought it was clear that it was also not her personal prefernce to be the leader and never be able to go back to B5, and that she might not even know herself which of these is the primary motivation. (I thought it was really telling that in "Voice in the Wilderness" that both Draal and Sinclair saw the ghost/image of Varn, and Draal even explicitly says he thinks it's related to the third principle of sentient life -- and Delenn does not see the ghost. (And her expression when Draal said that was pretty great too.))
"The Quality of Mercy," of course, was a much more eh episode. I didn't have the negative response you did, but interestingly I remember thinking during it that I wasn't having a more negative reaction because I'd already had the kneejerk negative response to "Believers" (which I thought was just blatantly anti-religion in much the same way you thought this was pro-death-penalty) and if I hadn't had it then I would have had it now; but already having had that experience I was like "...oh it's one of Those Very Special Episodes that is trying to be Topical and Edgy, and Franklin is being judgmental, and okay then."
Interestingly -- and maybe this is also a function of watching it in 2021, where we sort of have a lot of other things to worry about these days besides the death penalty -- I didn't find it pro-death-penalty, because of that last stunning scene where Laura Rosen is like "no, it wasn't okay that I killed the guy." Unlike the actual death penalty, she had basically no other recourse, it was an extremely black and white thing, no one blamed her -- and it still wasn't okay with her. I actually found it viscerally anti-death-penalty because of that. (His actual death I did think was a massive plot device which I did see coming -- as soon as Laura was like "it was a criminal punitive device!" I was like, oh, LET'S SEE HMM do we have any criminals around here?? but of course as you know I thought this about the death in "Believers" too, for reasons that seem diametrically opposed but which I think were actually similar in mechanics -- they were both set up in the "Cold Equations" way that there were Only Two Choices and Both Were Terrible :P ) Then again, my death penalty views were viscerally shaped as a kid by LoTR ("Deserves [death]! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”) so maybe I'm just susceptible to Sympathetic Characters talking about this stuff :P
But I also think personality wipes might even be more horrible than just killing the person and having it done with -- I mean, personally speaking, in the sense of "if these were my only choices I might choose death, idk" -- so there's that too, that this society has got some cool stuff but also some seriously dystopian elements baked in, like RL societies everywhere (and which makes the larger world of B5 seem rather more realistic than a lot of what we see of the Federation, which seems either idealistic or sort of cartoonish (will admit I was never fully convinced by Section 31)).
(also, ahhhhh I can't read any of the other comments this week! I can see though that an episode like this must be, well, it's probably hard to discuss the interesting bits without spoilers!)
no subject
Date: 2022-01-24 01:41 pm (UTC)Also, maybe if I'd been able to find the pilot this would have made more sense, but I found it totally hilarious where apparently B4 just... disappeared??... and everyone was like "Welp! Too bad! Better start on building the next one, then!" Like... really??
It gets better. The reason why B5 is called B5 is that there were really five attempts at finishing the damn station. 1-3, built after the Earth/Minbari war, were sabotaged and destroyed, 4 disappeared mysteriously, and its disappearance first was assumed to be due to whoever sabotaged 1-3 also got B4, though no one could explain why there wasn't even some debris floating in space. Now we know a bit more.
I also thought it was clear that it was also not her personal prefernce to be the leader and never be able to go back to B5, and that she might not even know herself which of these is the primary motivation. (I thought it was really telling that in "Voice in the Wilderness" that both Draal and Sinclair saw the ghost/image of Varn, and Draal even explicitly says he thinks it's related to the third principle of sentient life -- and Delenn does not see the ghost. (And her expression when Draal said that was pretty great too.))
*nods* Agreed.
I didn't find it pro-death-penalty, because of that last stunning scene where Laura Rosen is like "no, it wasn't okay that I killed the guy.
See, now you've pointed towards something I managed to overlook, despite the show doing something like this with another character several seasons later in one of my favourite scenes! You're absolutely right, that already within the episode itself shows we're not meant to take away "death penalty for the scum of the universe rar rar!"
this society has got some cool stuff but also some seriously dystopian elements baked in, like RL societies everywhere (and which makes the larger world of B5 seem rather more realistic than a lot of what we see of the Federation, which seems either idealistic or sort of cartoonish (will admit I was never fully convinced by Section 31))
Fair enough. :)
Personality wipes freak me out, big time, but I can't discuss them in this 'vese without spoilers, so we'll do it somewhat later down the road.
no subject
Date: 2022-03-06 03:39 pm (UTC)What makes you assume the parents were wrong in their belief? JMS gave no indications one way or the other on that point.
Ivanova is Jewish - do you assume her religion to be untrue?
Sinclair studied under Jesuits - is his religion untrue?
The Minbari have their religious beliefs too, which feature strongly in the series.
no subject
Date: 2022-03-09 06:23 am (UTC)The problem is that there are just too many real-life religions, including my own, which can fall into the trap of thinking people are "lesser" or "not worthy" when they've broken the religion's strictures, even to the point of ostracizing them. I know people personally who have suffered a lot of pain from their social groups shutting them out once they were no longer in step with the religion, and I know there are families where this happens too. I love my religion very much and there are so many good things about it and as far as I know I will continue to actively participate my whole life, but I can't deny there is also this dark side. (Though I think there is substantially less of this kind of thing now than when I was a child -- there has been a major push to actively counsel people not to do these kinds of things. But it still happens.)
So to me, the whole premise of the episode read as "Ha ha, let's take all the WORST things about religion, the concept of unworthiness and ostracizing, and crank it up to 11 where we call the concept of unworthiness literally 'not having a soul,' and the consequence to not following the religion's strictures is not just to cast them out of a family or social group, but the family literally kills them! Lol!" In retrospect I'm sure that's not what JMS intended, but that's how I responded to it.
(Honestly, I think there might have been some possibly subconscious subtext here -- now that I think about it, JMS's memoirs included a section where he very poignantly talked about a religious group he was a member of and which it was very painful to separate from. I would be surprised if some of that hadn't made it into this episode, though I imagine JMS didn't really think about the subtext in the way I thought about it watching it for the first time in 2022.)
Now, there are ways I think JMS could have gotten me on board with it. If the patient had been an adult and able to advocate for themselves, and then committed suicide, for example, Franklin would still have been in the wrong, still would have had to deal with losing his patient in a terrible way, and yet I wouldn't have been so furious.
But, yeah, if B5 posited that Delenn's religion or Ivanova's religion said their own kids were no longer sentient beings because of disobeying a religious stricture, and then Delenn or Ivanova killed them? I'd absolutely have thought that was meant as anti-religious too. (And if applied to Ivanova, it'd come across to me as anti-Semitic to boot.) BUT the show didn't do that, so I don't think that. (And I think that was a choice. I think JMS did know subconsciously that this was such a "gotcha" way of putting things that he couldn't do it to a major alien race or a major character.)
(It will surprise no one that Abraham and Isaac is my least favorite "popular" story in the scriptures. Let's just say that when I taught Abraham and Isaac a few years back at church, I said, "We have a phrase for people who kill their kids and say God told them to do it. That phrase is criminally insane." And then we had a good discussion about how we reconcile these things in the present day and what we might take from that story.)
no subject
Date: 2022-03-09 11:03 am (UTC)And that leads onto other things like polygamy and slavery in the Bible.
I agree it would be an easier episode if it had been an adult who committed suicide after surgery, but - I do not believe Franklin would have over-ridden the wishes of an adult.
I think it wasn't (unlike many cases I can think of in modern times) punishing someone for breaking the strictures of their religion - the parents didn't see themselves as punishing their child, but as saving him. It was clear that they loved him as much as before.
Having said that, you could probably say the same of the parents of gay children who force them into 'conversion therapy'. Though that feels like blaming the child and punishing him/her. It's hard to see it as an act of love - rather one of possessiveness.
To me, the episode was about Franklin's arrogance.
And, yes, you're right. I might have reacted differently if it had been a series regular that killed the child. JMS might have been able to pull it off, but only because there's evidence that Minbari actually do have souls (Soul Hunter)- so it might have been possible to be aware of the loss of the child's soul.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-24 01:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-03-06 03:32 pm (UTC)I wonder if the brachiarte have other useful functions. Probably handy for manipulating objects other than cards...
no subject
Date: 2022-03-06 04:36 pm (UTC)