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selenakAs I'm skipping Walkabout and Grey 17 is missing, as in, fast forwarding through the eps with no proper reviews resulting, by special request:
Kosh II gets the name Ulkesh in the media tie-ins, making his "we are all Kosh" a lie, but whether or not you take this as canonical depends on how canonical the books are for you. It is of course handy to have another way to refer to him that makes it immediately clear which Vorlon we're talking about. Note the color scheme of his encounter suit is darker from the get go, and while Kosh I wasn't above using the patented Darth Vader strangle hold on Sheridan when arguing with him, Kosh II using it on Lyta - who has done nothing but aide the Vorlons so far and allowed them to modify her body for their convenience - is still an ominous sign.
It didn't occur to me before, but Lyta's being upset that no one was present at Kosh's death and the later reveal Kosh's "I will always be with you" to Sheridan in that last dream was meant literally, as in, a part of him is now in Sheridan, may well hail from Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, since the scene where Sarek is upset to learn from Kirk he didn't end up with Spock's katra and the ensuing reveal McCoy did is similarly structured.
I had forgotten Delenn collecs Sinclair's remaining property on Minbar. Though how she wants to forward to his family in the middle of a war, I'm not quite sure. Remember, Sinclair isn't from Earth, he was actually born on Mars, and Mars is currently involved in rebelling and being brutally punished for it.
Yep, Delenn and Neroon encounters are always a treat. Alas for the narrative to also always somewhat load the dice in Delenn's favor. I mean, Neroon has a point about the questionability of Delenn (who is at this point, with the Grey Council being broken, controlled by and answerable to no one) having her own private army at her disposal, but because we know Delenn herself suggested Rathenn for the job first and also has a war against a gigantic enemy to fight, he looks petty.
Marcus finds a new near certain death to volunteer for! More seriously, Neroon being impressed by Marcus' willingness to die for Delenn (and invoke Valen - presumably no one has told, or will tell Neroon the Sinclair reveal) and concluding he, Neroon, could not inspire such devotion in the Rangers and that therefore Delenn is the right leader both resonates with the third doctrine of sentient life according to Minbari belief (the capacity for self sacrifice) and with Neroon's own code. Note that he is capable of acknowledging virtue in humans, but that he sees this when they behave in a way that strikes him as Minbari like (both with Sinclair in s1 and with Marcus now). More importantly, he's capable of saying "I was wrong", which is rare in any species. And that's why Neroon is an interesting character. Looking forward to seeing you again in s4, Neroon!
And the rock cried out, no hiding place
Aka the one with the revenge murder set to joyful gospel music in one of B5's most memorable sequences. It's both cathartic and not a little disturbing, because on the one hand, it's Refa, otoh, you're emotionally manipulated into applauding as an individual gets literally torn apart by an angry mob.
But to go back to the start. Despite the relatively close proximity of Adira's death in Interludes and Examinations (and the fact that evidently, G'Kar would not die), I can't say I figured out what exactly Londo was up to the first time I watched this back in the day, though I certainly hoped he was up to something other than what it appeared to be on the surface, with the penny not dropping until Vir got forcibly scanned by a telepath. In the other subplot, I was waiting for some backstory reveal re: the Brother Theo and Reverend Will rivalry that never came. Rewatching, it feels it's not needed - they just get on each other's nerves despite both of them being well intentioned, and it's the comic relief subplot to the tense main story. Though Reverend Will is also established as being good at his job when giving Sheridan a pep talk. Incindentally, I had forgotten the actual reasons why Will, the Rabbi and the Iman came to the station until this rewatch, i.e. that they brought intelligence from the Resistance on Earth. (With the implicationt hat Theo's order has been doing this, too.) That JMS depicted the representatives of various faiths siding with the resistance against an authoritarian regime is, sad to say, something that feels quite different today than it did back in the 1990s, when I di dnot question it (and it was probably inspired by the likes of Pope JP II getting credited for part of the Polish movements in the 1980s). These days, between Patriarch Kyrill preaching Putin's gospel being but one of many examples of various leaders of various faiths allying themselves to authoritarian (or wannabe authoritarian) leaders all over globe, it feels like JMS being overly optimistic. (Not that there aren't also opposite contemporary examples, I hasten to add, as for example the recently fled Moscow rabbi who refused to endorse the "special operation".)
This episode starts with the "Z minus X days" countdown" but otherwise, the human (and Minbari) side of things are as mentioned basically the comic relief subplot (and justification for the gospel music) while the Centauri and Narn main plot is all tense character drama, which is the kind of thing I would venture to guess no first time watcher predicts would happen when starting the first season. It's also the other episode where Londo hits moral rock bottom (the first coming early this season when he taunts G'Kar's unfortunate replacement), not because of the Refa killing but because of the way he uses Vir in it, which Vir is very rightfully angry about as the episode ends. Now, in five seasons, we see all the other steps of the Londo and Vir relationship, but we don't see how they reconciled after this one (just that they did, because their one scene in the season finale shows them on normal terms again). (I mean, you can fanwank that Londo's markedly different beheaviour towards Vir in s4 is informed by his realization he went too far here, but still.) It also marks the first time Londo and G'Kar collaborate on something (voluntarily - stuff like Sinclair cajoling them into showing up for negotiations in s1 doesn't count), but because of the plot structure, i.e. the build up to Londo's reveal coming as a surprise to viewers and characters alike, we don't get to see how on earth Londo approached G'Kar with this idea (remember, the last time they canonically met was when G'Kar broke into Londo's quarters, beat him up and mindraped him) and convinced G'Kar that it wasn't an elaborate play to get G'Kar (in addition to Refa if not instead of Refa) killed. Now, emotionally invested as I am in both the Londo and Vir and the Londo and G'Kar relationships, I had to write some post episode comfort for Vir after all this hurt as well as the missing scene where Londo talks G'Kar into the let's kill Refa together scheme. But that's what fanfiction is for, and I'm glad for the episode as is, though I can't rewatch it often, I flinch too much on poor Vir's behalf.
Questions that occured to me this time around:
- Londo was taking a pretty big risk with thePraetorians guards "loyal to House Mollari". I mean, yes, he probably paid them very well, but still, any of them could have turned him in to both the minister and the Emperor, and let's face it, whether or not murdering your rival is covered by Centauri tradition and Londo having taken the care to get a "end this annoying feud" mandate before, collaborating with the Narn resistance in doing so is definitely a big NO
- Refa dying for the one crime he's not guilty of (killing Adira) is deeply ironic; there's a blackly hilarious fanfiction, sadly not by me, where Refa misinterprets the Londo and Morden relationship, thinks they're an item, and when hearing Holo!Londo say "you have taken from me that which I loved" thinks "I knew it!" and that this was all an elaborate jealousy murder because Refa got Morden's attention; which, if you consider Londo earlier told Refa not to talk to Morden anymore etc. actually works! Okay, more serious now, presumably Refa had no idea what Londo was talking about there, but all the other points were comprehensible enough, and also, his mind was probably on the fact he was locked in a room with many angry Narn and abandoned by his guards
- would Londo have eventually killed Refa without the Adira factor? Probably, yes, not least because Refa, despite the poison threat, was as we can see early in the episode working against him, and still did not see the problem with multifront wars, but I very much doubt he would have orchestrated Refa's death in such an elaborate way as opposed to letting an agent simply slip him the other half of the poison
- in the AU where Vir warns G'Kar instead of lying to him, Londo and G'Kar have a serious problem, don't they?
Shadows Dancing
You know, it's easy to overlook, but this rewatch is reminding me that the show itself actually verifies Delenn's insistance in early s2 that they needed more time and thus couldn't go public about the Shadows yet. Both to build this handy White Star fleet and to buld the alliance against the Shadows, neither of which they'd have had if the Shadows had come out into the open in early s2.
The scene with the annoying woman rambling on about awful rebels and homeless people is just there so that the actress playing her can be credited with "XY as Barbara" to hide the implications of the next credit, "Melissa Gilbert as Anna" , isn't it? Though the recasting of Anna Sheridan from Beth Toussaint who played her in the recorded message to Sheridan's sister Sheridan watches in early s2 does the job for a first time viewer as well. The only other thing I had consciously seen Melissa Gilbert it back in the day was "Little House in the Prairie" where she played Laura Ingalls Wilder, so I was mostly surprised to see little Laura grown up. More about Anna Sheridan, the character, in next week's review. The cliffhanger here reminded me very much of Dallas and Dynasty back in the day - his wife! Back from the dead! I don't mean this critically - this is a space opera - and also it has been fairly prepared, because remember, in s2's In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum when Sheridan talks about all the implications of Morden's continued existence, he does say that the other possibility is that if Morden is still alive, Anna is still alive, and Delenn's response is pointedly NOT saying "no, she's dead", but "all those who refused to serve the Shadows were killed". But I did sporadically waatch both these most famous of 80s soaps, and so in the 1990s that was my association with this particular plot device.
(I hadn't watched Blake's 7 yet, where Avon's tragically dead lost love Anna turns out, well, you know. But JMS sure had.)
The main plot otherwise is a straightforward suspenseful war story, with Sheridan figuring out the Shadows' trap and turning it into a trap for them and Delenn managing to get the other races on board with providing ships, while deciding to celebrate by introducing Sheridan to another Minbari ritual. I must say, much as "watching a man sleep to see his true face" has its charm, I never, even upon nth rewatch, can't shake the suspicion Delenn made half of those rituals up to indulge herself and tease Sheridan. On a slightly more serious note, I think part of it was also the show refraining from giving its leads a sex scene and coming up with a replacement instead. It's not that B5 is prudish re: its main characters sex lives - just the preceding episode had Franklin/Girl of the week, and there were also Londo/Adira, Londo/ two of his wifes, G'Kar/Lots and lots of non-Narn women with and without red hot panties as featured in s1, Susan/Talia, and almost, but not quite, Garibaldi/Dodger (which depicted a female character wanting sex and the male character being heistant, very unuusual still in the 1990s) - though note all these examples show the before or after. These days, I think at least some of these examples would get a network demand of being shown on screen during, and presumably it would be Susan/Talia and Sheridan/Delenn due to being the conventionally attractive characters.
Presumably Anna had an out of date ID card the way Morden did when first arriving on B5. You'd think that with the Shadows being allied to President Clark, Clark would spring for some up to date IDs for his allies minions.
I got nothing else, not because I don't like the episode but because it, like I said, is pretty straightforward in what it sets out to be.
Next week: Z'ha'dum!
The other episodes
Kosh II gets the name Ulkesh in the media tie-ins, making his "we are all Kosh" a lie, but whether or not you take this as canonical depends on how canonical the books are for you. It is of course handy to have another way to refer to him that makes it immediately clear which Vorlon we're talking about. Note the color scheme of his encounter suit is darker from the get go, and while Kosh I wasn't above using the patented Darth Vader strangle hold on Sheridan when arguing with him, Kosh II using it on Lyta - who has done nothing but aide the Vorlons so far and allowed them to modify her body for their convenience - is still an ominous sign.
It didn't occur to me before, but Lyta's being upset that no one was present at Kosh's death and the later reveal Kosh's "I will always be with you" to Sheridan in that last dream was meant literally, as in, a part of him is now in Sheridan, may well hail from Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, since the scene where Sarek is upset to learn from Kirk he didn't end up with Spock's katra and the ensuing reveal McCoy did is similarly structured.
I had forgotten Delenn collecs Sinclair's remaining property on Minbar. Though how she wants to forward to his family in the middle of a war, I'm not quite sure. Remember, Sinclair isn't from Earth, he was actually born on Mars, and Mars is currently involved in rebelling and being brutally punished for it.
Yep, Delenn and Neroon encounters are always a treat. Alas for the narrative to also always somewhat load the dice in Delenn's favor. I mean, Neroon has a point about the questionability of Delenn (who is at this point, with the Grey Council being broken, controlled by and answerable to no one) having her own private army at her disposal, but because we know Delenn herself suggested Rathenn for the job first and also has a war against a gigantic enemy to fight, he looks petty.
Marcus finds a new near certain death to volunteer for! More seriously, Neroon being impressed by Marcus' willingness to die for Delenn (and invoke Valen - presumably no one has told, or will tell Neroon the Sinclair reveal) and concluding he, Neroon, could not inspire such devotion in the Rangers and that therefore Delenn is the right leader both resonates with the third doctrine of sentient life according to Minbari belief (the capacity for self sacrifice) and with Neroon's own code. Note that he is capable of acknowledging virtue in humans, but that he sees this when they behave in a way that strikes him as Minbari like (both with Sinclair in s1 and with Marcus now). More importantly, he's capable of saying "I was wrong", which is rare in any species. And that's why Neroon is an interesting character. Looking forward to seeing you again in s4, Neroon!
And the rock cried out, no hiding place
Aka the one with the revenge murder set to joyful gospel music in one of B5's most memorable sequences. It's both cathartic and not a little disturbing, because on the one hand, it's Refa, otoh, you're emotionally manipulated into applauding as an individual gets literally torn apart by an angry mob.
But to go back to the start. Despite the relatively close proximity of Adira's death in Interludes and Examinations (and the fact that evidently, G'Kar would not die), I can't say I figured out what exactly Londo was up to the first time I watched this back in the day, though I certainly hoped he was up to something other than what it appeared to be on the surface, with the penny not dropping until Vir got forcibly scanned by a telepath. In the other subplot, I was waiting for some backstory reveal re: the Brother Theo and Reverend Will rivalry that never came. Rewatching, it feels it's not needed - they just get on each other's nerves despite both of them being well intentioned, and it's the comic relief subplot to the tense main story. Though Reverend Will is also established as being good at his job when giving Sheridan a pep talk. Incindentally, I had forgotten the actual reasons why Will, the Rabbi and the Iman came to the station until this rewatch, i.e. that they brought intelligence from the Resistance on Earth. (With the implicationt hat Theo's order has been doing this, too.) That JMS depicted the representatives of various faiths siding with the resistance against an authoritarian regime is, sad to say, something that feels quite different today than it did back in the 1990s, when I di dnot question it (and it was probably inspired by the likes of Pope JP II getting credited for part of the Polish movements in the 1980s). These days, between Patriarch Kyrill preaching Putin's gospel being but one of many examples of various leaders of various faiths allying themselves to authoritarian (or wannabe authoritarian) leaders all over globe, it feels like JMS being overly optimistic. (Not that there aren't also opposite contemporary examples, I hasten to add, as for example the recently fled Moscow rabbi who refused to endorse the "special operation".)
This episode starts with the "Z minus X days" countdown" but otherwise, the human (and Minbari) side of things are as mentioned basically the comic relief subplot (and justification for the gospel music) while the Centauri and Narn main plot is all tense character drama, which is the kind of thing I would venture to guess no first time watcher predicts would happen when starting the first season. It's also the other episode where Londo hits moral rock bottom (the first coming early this season when he taunts G'Kar's unfortunate replacement), not because of the Refa killing but because of the way he uses Vir in it, which Vir is very rightfully angry about as the episode ends. Now, in five seasons, we see all the other steps of the Londo and Vir relationship, but we don't see how they reconciled after this one (just that they did, because their one scene in the season finale shows them on normal terms again). (I mean, you can fanwank that Londo's markedly different beheaviour towards Vir in s4 is informed by his realization he went too far here, but still.) It also marks the first time Londo and G'Kar collaborate on something (voluntarily - stuff like Sinclair cajoling them into showing up for negotiations in s1 doesn't count), but because of the plot structure, i.e. the build up to Londo's reveal coming as a surprise to viewers and characters alike, we don't get to see how on earth Londo approached G'Kar with this idea (remember, the last time they canonically met was when G'Kar broke into Londo's quarters, beat him up and mindraped him) and convinced G'Kar that it wasn't an elaborate play to get G'Kar (in addition to Refa if not instead of Refa) killed. Now, emotionally invested as I am in both the Londo and Vir and the Londo and G'Kar relationships, I had to write some post episode comfort for Vir after all this hurt as well as the missing scene where Londo talks G'Kar into the let's kill Refa together scheme. But that's what fanfiction is for, and I'm glad for the episode as is, though I can't rewatch it often, I flinch too much on poor Vir's behalf.
Questions that occured to me this time around:
- Londo was taking a pretty big risk with the
- Refa dying for the one crime he's not guilty of (killing Adira) is deeply ironic; there's a blackly hilarious fanfiction, sadly not by me, where Refa misinterprets the Londo and Morden relationship, thinks they're an item, and when hearing Holo!Londo say "you have taken from me that which I loved" thinks "I knew it!" and that this was all an elaborate jealousy murder because Refa got Morden's attention; which, if you consider Londo earlier told Refa not to talk to Morden anymore etc. actually works! Okay, more serious now, presumably Refa had no idea what Londo was talking about there, but all the other points were comprehensible enough, and also, his mind was probably on the fact he was locked in a room with many angry Narn and abandoned by his guards
- would Londo have eventually killed Refa without the Adira factor? Probably, yes, not least because Refa, despite the poison threat, was as we can see early in the episode working against him, and still did not see the problem with multifront wars, but I very much doubt he would have orchestrated Refa's death in such an elaborate way as opposed to letting an agent simply slip him the other half of the poison
- in the AU where Vir warns G'Kar instead of lying to him, Londo and G'Kar have a serious problem, don't they?
Shadows Dancing
You know, it's easy to overlook, but this rewatch is reminding me that the show itself actually verifies Delenn's insistance in early s2 that they needed more time and thus couldn't go public about the Shadows yet. Both to build this handy White Star fleet and to buld the alliance against the Shadows, neither of which they'd have had if the Shadows had come out into the open in early s2.
The scene with the annoying woman rambling on about awful rebels and homeless people is just there so that the actress playing her can be credited with "XY as Barbara" to hide the implications of the next credit, "Melissa Gilbert as Anna" , isn't it? Though the recasting of Anna Sheridan from Beth Toussaint who played her in the recorded message to Sheridan's sister Sheridan watches in early s2 does the job for a first time viewer as well. The only other thing I had consciously seen Melissa Gilbert it back in the day was "Little House in the Prairie" where she played Laura Ingalls Wilder, so I was mostly surprised to see little Laura grown up. More about Anna Sheridan, the character, in next week's review. The cliffhanger here reminded me very much of Dallas and Dynasty back in the day - his wife! Back from the dead! I don't mean this critically - this is a space opera - and also it has been fairly prepared, because remember, in s2's In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum when Sheridan talks about all the implications of Morden's continued existence, he does say that the other possibility is that if Morden is still alive, Anna is still alive, and Delenn's response is pointedly NOT saying "no, she's dead", but "all those who refused to serve the Shadows were killed". But I did sporadically waatch both these most famous of 80s soaps, and so in the 1990s that was my association with this particular plot device.
(I hadn't watched Blake's 7 yet, where Avon's tragically dead lost love Anna turns out, well, you know. But JMS sure had.)
The main plot otherwise is a straightforward suspenseful war story, with Sheridan figuring out the Shadows' trap and turning it into a trap for them and Delenn managing to get the other races on board with providing ships, while deciding to celebrate by introducing Sheridan to another Minbari ritual. I must say, much as "watching a man sleep to see his true face" has its charm, I never, even upon nth rewatch, can't shake the suspicion Delenn made half of those rituals up to indulge herself and tease Sheridan. On a slightly more serious note, I think part of it was also the show refraining from giving its leads a sex scene and coming up with a replacement instead. It's not that B5 is prudish re: its main characters sex lives - just the preceding episode had Franklin/Girl of the week, and there were also Londo/Adira, Londo/ two of his wifes, G'Kar/Lots and lots of non-Narn women with and without red hot panties as featured in s1, Susan/Talia, and almost, but not quite, Garibaldi/Dodger (which depicted a female character wanting sex and the male character being heistant, very unuusual still in the 1990s) - though note all these examples show the before or after. These days, I think at least some of these examples would get a network demand of being shown on screen during, and presumably it would be Susan/Talia and Sheridan/Delenn due to being the conventionally attractive characters.
Presumably Anna had an out of date ID card the way Morden did when first arriving on B5. You'd think that with the Shadows being allied to President Clark, Clark would spring for some up to date IDs for his allies minions.
I got nothing else, not because I don't like the episode but because it, like I said, is pretty straightforward in what it sets out to be.
Next week: Z'ha'dum!
The other episodes
no subject
Date: 2022-06-12 04:25 am (UTC)Walkabout:
Kosh II using it on Lyta - who has done nothing but aide the Vorlons so far and allowed them to modify her body for their convenience - is still an ominous sign.
Kosh II definitely seems more, um, angry than Kosh I!
And the rock cried out:
Aka the one with the revenge murder set to joyful gospel music in one of B5's most memorable sequences. It's both cathartic and not a little disturbing, because on the one hand, it's Refa, otoh, you're emotionally manipulated into applauding as an individual gets literally torn apart by an angry mob.
Wait, am I the only one whose brain immediately connected this with the climactic montage in Godfather? Which meant that I wasn't really applauding, it was more like (as in Godfather) "wow, there's this joyful thing going on at the same time this utterly screwed-up thing is also happening." (I mean, it's screwed up not least because it's Refa and quite frankly I'm happy to see him go, but also it's basically the opposite of an ethical triumph for anyone involved!) Although the difference of course is that the people singing the gospel song aren't actually the instigators. But Londo would make a good crime boss :PP
though I certainly hoped he was up to something other than what it appeared to be on the surface, with the penny not dropping until Vir got forcibly scanned by a telepath.
in the AU where Vir warns G'Kar instead of lying to him, Londo and G'Kar have a serious problem, don't they?
I... totally believed that Londo was up to what he said he was. He put on a very convincing act for Vir and me :P
What I was actually hoping had happened was that Vir had told G'Kar exactly what he was supposed to, and then also added that it was all a ploy by Londo. Once the telepath happened, I could see obviously that was not the case... but honestly that was what I was expecting and hoping for the whole time. Which as you say would have made it a much bigger problem for Londo and G'Kar, but... well.
Though Reverend Will is also established as being good at his job when giving Sheridan a pep talk.
Lol, I was all "...your pep talk involves telling Sheridan he should get a girl??"
which is the kind of thing I would venture to guess no first time watcher predicts would happen when starting the first season.
Well, you would be right, about this first-time watcher.
I had to write some post episode
OK good, I assume I can read these??
there's a blackly hilarious fanfiction
Link??
Shadows Dancing:
WELL I WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT. But Delenn must have been expecting it?? Because she was in the flash-forward???? I mean, I was kind of expecting it back in S2, but I'd forgotten about Anna by this point. AS JMS INTENDED.
"all those who refused to serve the Shadows were killed".
Ohhhh... crap. I'd forgotten that.
On a slightly more serious note, I think part of it was also the show refraining from giving its leads a sex scene and coming up with a replacement instead.
Well, I think that there was a reason why JMS didn't give Sheridan a sex scene right before his DEAD WIFE showed up.... seriously, part of my reaction was "well... at least he didn't..."
no subject
Date: 2022-06-12 05:03 am (UTC)That montage is one of my favourites in cinematic history, but I never connected the two. Probably because as you say, Michael being the godfather for Connie's son at his baptism goes in tandem with Michael being responsible for the violence elsewhere, which is his baptism as Don Corleone. The two ceremonies are thematically aligned, so to speak, even if the emotional content is juxtaposed. (Also of course when Michael as the godfather of his nephew refutes the devil and all his works he accepts the devil elsewhere, etc.)
I could see Londo as a crime boss, true.
I can't remember anymore whether I thought or hoped Vir would have told G'Kar the truth back then before the telepath scene.
Lol, I was all "...your pep talk involves telling Sheridan he should get a girl??"
LOL, I was more like "Reverend Will: Shipper on Deck" (for Sheridan/Delenn).
OK good, I assume I can read these??
Absolutely, they're spoiler free beyond this episode.
I'll track down the Refa story for you later.
But Delenn must have been expecting it??
Not really, I mean, she didn't see the woman's face in her flash forward, and the theologian in Delenn would tend to interpret what she saw as a vision not to be taken literally. Otoh, whether or not Delenn was aware there was at least this possibility is a matter under discussion between her and Sheridan in the next episode. Ahem.
no subject
Date: 2022-06-16 05:16 am (UTC)WHAAAAAAAAAT
WHAT JUST HAPPENED
????
(that was a rhetorical question)
(I'll shut up and wait until the weekend)
The Refa story...
Date: 2022-06-12 06:40 am (UTC)Re: The Refa story...
Date: 2022-06-16 05:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-06-13 02:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-06-16 05:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-06-16 06:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-06-18 05:24 am (UTC)Right, putting Cabaret on my list!
no subject
Date: 2022-06-12 06:48 am (UTC)For me, as a Lutheran, some religious leaders in a conspiracy against the fascist government hits about the same now as it did as a teen in the 90s, because even then I knew about Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Nazi Germany and the complicated actions of the Roman Catholic church in South America over the 19th and 20th Centuries. In South America, the majority of the Catholic hierarchy supported (and still supports) oppressive regimes, whether that was foreign rule or local puppets for foreign rule or whatever. And the parts of the Catholic hierarchy that don't explicitly support those oppressive regimes mostly stay quiet for fear of reprisal. However! A significant minority of Catholic religious professionals were and are in active resistance to such regimes, both theologically and practically. In Nazi Germany, the vast majority of Christian churches either supported the Nazis (all those family values!) or were silent in fear. But there were some--especially the Confessing Church led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer--who took an active stand against the Nazis both theologically and practically. (Bonhoeffer himself took part in a plot to kill Hitler.)
So that's what I was always comparing them to. This is not a Star Trek 'post religious' future, but a future where religion is present and matters for many people even in a secular society, and we see quite a lot of human religious stuff being important to various characters at different times. In a society like that, if a majority of the religious leaders on Earth took a public stand against Clark, he couldn't have lasted this long. Therefore, we can assume that they are either in favor of him (the old "family values" shtick has done a lot of fascists a lot of good over the years) or are afraid of speaking up. However, that is not universal. Some religious leaders (such as the ones seen in this episode) are working against Clark both theologically and practically. It makes a difference. Just, a much smaller difference than if more of them were doing the same.
no subject
Date: 2022-06-12 07:26 am (UTC)The comparison to Bonhoeffer (one could add Martin Niemöller) on the one hand and official attitudes on the other is a good one, and I see your point.
no subject
Date: 2022-06-15 03:50 pm (UTC)Re: what happened to people who encountered the Shadows - much like Vulcans, Minbari don't lie ;)
I am entirely okay with the idea of Delenn inventing some of them (or it's a Minbari way of making sure you know if he snores).
no subject
Date: 2022-06-16 06:28 am (UTC)Headcanon instantly accepted!
no subject
Date: 2022-06-15 09:42 pm (UTC)I really love And the Rock... and how well it plays with our emotions. It's so deliberate, and it's fascinating.
no subject
Date: 2022-06-16 06:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-08-11 08:27 pm (UTC)That part of it is worth mentioning, especially Garibaldi's challenge to G'Kar - slamming the holy book down on the table and saying that G'Kar should actually take notice of what was in it himself!