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selenakNo Surrender, No Retreat
Aka the other one with the Londo, G'Kar, drink scene. Did something else happen? ;) Okay, seriousy now: this episode, which provides this season with its title, puts the into the odd position where repeatedly on this rewatch when we were dealing with Earth-politics-central stories, I said JMS imagined things too optimistically or that something shows its being created in the 90s/was very much wedded to WWII pop culture imagery, and this time I say that back in the 1990s, I thought the idea of so relatively many commanders ultimately balking at carrying out Clark's orders, changing sides or at least being neutral was overly optimistic, on my rewatch when the dvds were released in the early 200s I was certain of it because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanomo... but now I can't help but recall the that we might owe the continued existence of US democracy (for now) to the fact the upper echelon of the US military wasn't willing to go along with Trump's attempted coup.
(Conversely, I don't think comparisons to Russia work because B5's Earth has only been a de facto dictatorship for a year or so, and even if you count the preceding year building up to it, that's still not comparable to Russian history where you can count the years when it wasn't either an absolute monarchy or a dictatorship on two hands.)
Aaanyway. Now I believe there would be high ranking military personnel acting like the ones in this episode. The one thing I will say is that when Sheridan declares once they've gotten rid of Clark & Co., they'll put power back in the hands of the voters, I did think that even that not very democratic bunch the July 20nd 1944 conspirators against Hitler had a better (as in, more clearly defined) plan of a follow-up, and a non-military chancellor candidate they wanted to be the interim head of state till things could get worked out. It's useful to know these kind of things, Sheridan. Because if there's one thing history has demonstrated over and over again, it's that if you remove a dictator and don't have an administrive structure organized to prevent a power vaccuum, disaster follows.
I have a spoilery additional remark on the Earth Civil War main plot, but that one has a big season 5 spoiler in it, so I'll add it later after spoiler space and move on to celebrate the fact we're getting meaningful Centauri and Narn scenes again in this episode. Vir still having nightmares about killing Cartagia isn't surprising, because it's Vir. Otoh the conversation he has with Garibaldi is another of those things which would work better if it had been Sinclair Garibaldi had his falling out with, because Vir comparing his standing by Londo despite often disliking his methods ("me and most civilized worlds") came for another reason in addition to shared patriotism, namely his attachment to Londo, and while Garibaldi loved Sinclair, he was only on friendly boss/employee terms with Sheridan at best.
Meanwhile the Londo and G'Kar scenes, both of them, are sublime. I love how Londo is on the one hand trying to do better but on the other still shying away from admitting, even to himself, the full enormity of what he has done. He's still hiding behind "I did what I thought was right for my people". Redemption doesn't happen over night. (And that's why it was so important we got the fifth season.) And G'Kar may be enlightened now, but he's also still furious, and aiming to (emotionally) wound; he's not some superbeing ready to forgive when the all the old blood is barely dried. And yet: Londo, deeply flawed and guilty as he is, does something truly extraordinary here, and so does G'Kar by the end of the episode. Their alliance against Cartagia had been driven by the mutual need to save their respective people. This is no longer the case. Londo initiates two things in this episode, one on a political level - not just committing the Centauri on the Sheridan side of the Earth Civil War but pushing for a joint pro B5 statement with the Narn - and the other on a deeply personal one - that shared drink to echo the one from Coming of Shadows, with all the might have beens it symbolizes, which G'Kar first rejects in a very precise "fuck you" gesture, and then later accepts. Now G'Kar could have stuck to simply co-signing the pro Sheridan declaration if this was solely about accepting Londo's poltical suggestion was a good thing. That he does drink in their second scene signals that all past high handed "you no longer exist in my universe" declarations aside, he just can't manage indifference to Londo Mollari. Ignoring Londo just isn't an option for him. And Londo's disbelieving tiny smile once G'Kar has left is sooooo good, you guys.
These two will always be my OTP.
Now, back to Earth Force and the question of officers supporting Clark, or not supporting Clark but not supporting Sheridan either. Fifth season spoilers to follow.
Following
Orders
is
If Elizabeth Lochley had been planned from the start instead of being thought of only when Claudia Christian did not sign on for the fifth season, this would have been a good episode to casually introduce her in, with her backstory with Sheridan not yet revealed but making it clear they know each other. Of course, in an ideal tv world JMS would have known he'd get a fifh season and could have spread out the whole Earth plot line for longer, in which case there would have been time to go into the motives and status of various Earth Force personnel who didn't join Sheridan from the get go.
Introducing Lochley here as someone who does not join Team Sheridan but still isn't presented as an outright villain would also have helped with the other problem, that Garibaldi is the only Sheridan critic in the second half of the season but since he's mentally compromised, his criticism does not really count narratively speaking. Conversely, by introducing Lochley in this season the show could have then in s5 have her work through the fact that no matter what she tells herself, you can't be part of an authoritarian regime and not be complicit in some level, even if you don't personally fire on civilians. Showing the pov of the loyalists who aren't evil Clark minions could have added to the show, but between the lack of a guaranteed fifth season and the actor problem, I can understand why it wasn't done. I just hope that if we have something similar in the reboot, this element is included.
not
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excuse
The Exercise of Vital Powers
Smething that always impresses me about this episode is that actually, JMS wrote two scripts with its title - the episode proper and a complete fake script to prank his cast - and the episode proper is actually solid. When did the man sleep? For those who don't know the tale of the prank, which I first heard at a Munich convention from Richard Biggs between seasons 4 and 5, and later read in various publications - I think at one point JMS even published the critical scenes -: in retaliation of the cast pranking him, JMS wrote a fake script which had G'Kar undergoing a sex change which inspires him to seek out Londo, use the immortal line "you may have conquered my world, Centauri, but you did not conquer me!" and have sex with him for the cause of interstellar peace. I remember Biggs saying the telephones were not still in the days after the script was delivered, especially those of Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik, as the rest of the cast wanted to know whether they were going to play it, and everyone working themselves into a frenzy, until the actual script was delivered. (Decades later, one can only marvel at JMS needing to include the sex change as justification. *veg*)
Now, in the actual episode, we're mostly on Mars with Garibaldi finally meeting William Edgars, industrialist, with a shorter subplot on B5 where Franklin still tries to help the telepaths with shadow implants (nicknamed teepsicles in the fandom at the time, as I recall) and is constantly questioned by Sheridan about his progress for reasons subsequent episodes will make clear. When he asks Lyta for her help, you can see something I was wondering about last week. "I know you have your difficulties with Psi Corps" says Stephen Franklin, staring directly at Lyta who is wearing a Psi Corps badge and gloves again as demanded by Bester. Does he wonder why? Does he even notice? He does not. And Franklin is of all the station crew the one most sympathetic to telepaths.
cahn, other new watchers, I'm curious: do you have a guess as to why Sheridan keeps bugging Franklin about the Shadowtech-implanted telepaths? I sure didn't the first time around.Edgars is a bit of a plot device instead of a character, expositioning about how it's really rich millionaires and industriatlists who are calling the shots (or ought to, which is why he sees Psi Corps as competition with Clark). I think JMS was going for a contrast between mild-mannered, polite exterior and creepy ruthless tactics, but for this to be a contrast I think we would have had to see Edgars doing a few non-creepy things. Instead, his scenes with Lise feel exactly like those of a noir film where the shady dame turns out to be shackled to the villain, with no sense of a real emotional connection between them. But be that as it may, the plot he's the device of is certainly effective, and there's nothing about his behavior I don't buy for a man who managed to get into that kind of power and position. More about his complete plan next week, and of course about what's going on with Garibaldi, because it's impossible to discuss without next week's spoilers and should be really a part of the discussion in the episode where all the cards are on the table.
One last observation: Garibaldi's opening and closing narration are certainly echoes of the type of hard boiled detective novels he hails from, but it's odd that this is the first and last time we hear first person log entries from him.
The other episodes
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Date: 2022-08-14 03:51 am (UTC)-Speaking of which, besides everything you say, which yes, I absolutely adored G'Kar's petty "But not on the same page!!" about signing the treaty with Londo, because it's so utterly not the point and Londo and G'Kar both know it <3
-Yeah, I kind of waffled between feeling like the narrative is really putting down its weight on Sheridan's side, and feeling like I didn't care because I wanted him to win anyway. I did appreciate that there was a mix of officers who agreed with him, officers who really really didn't agree with him, and officers who decided they didn't want to commit suicide over him but didn't agree with what he was doing.
-use the immortal line "you may have conquered my world, Centauri, but you did not conquer me!"
...
...
OMG
I.. okay, a) that was the best prank of ALL TIME, b) I kiiiiinda want this now
[personal profile] cahn, other new watchers, I'm curious: do you have a guess as to why Sheridan keeps bugging Franklin about the Shadowtech-implanted telepaths? I sure didn't the first time around.
I had a vague idea that he wanted to cure them (like, to get Bester to help them and so on), and then when he sent everyone to Mars I had the vague idea he wanted to do something with Shadow ships, but that seems like it must be incorrect.
Instead, his scenes with Lise feel exactly like those of a noir film where the shady dame turns out to be shackled to the villain, with no sense of a real emotional connection between them.
There's that, but I wanted to cheer during Lise's speech with Garibaldi. I mean, after dealing with him I can see why she might have wanted to settle down with someone rich who was at least there. Garibaldi does not sound like a great love interest.
I'm again very glad you mentioned that this was supposed to be Sinclair that Garibaldi was betraying, because I felt like I was watching through two different lenses, and one of those lenses was him betraying Sinclair, which made it all just very intense and heartbreaking in a way it isn't when I watch the in-canon him betraying Sheridan.
ETA: Oh, and
Because if there's one thing history has demonstrated over and over again, it's that if you remove a dictator and don't have an administrive structure organized to prevent a power vaccuum, disaster follows.
I didn't catch the implications of Sheridan's statement while watching, but... like... we JUST WATCHED what happened when you do this on Minbar!! (I have been thinking about this a lot in the past week, because chemistry :PP )
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Date: 2022-08-14 07:26 am (UTC)Quite. :) Also, you know, their scenes alone are justification for arc tv. Now, B5 was one of the very first arc shows, and I totally get the complaints that in some ways, this was a fateful development, since today there's not much episodic tv left, and often shows just aren't good at arcs, not to mention that standalone eps even appear to be something of a lost art, etc. But a scene like the one of the drink works only in an arc show, where we've been following Londo and G'Kar for nearly four years of character and relationship development. Show that same scene to a new audience, and they don't get it, at all.
I absolutely adored G'Kar's petty "But not on the same page!!" about signing the treaty with Londo, because it's so utterly not the point and Londo and G'Kar both know it <3
*nods* G'Kar may be enlightened now, but he's still the same Narn, and that's why we love him.
I.. okay, a) that was the best prank of ALL TIME, b) I kiiiiinda want this now
Well, I'm happy to report that many a year ago, I wrote the very first Londo/G'Kar story (at least I could find no earlier one, and believe me, I looked), and in it I used that line because someone clearly had to . :) There's also a great podfic version of it by a friend of mine who even managed Londo's accent. It's set right after Rising Star, the last but one episode of this season, and I'll link you then.
I had a vague idea that he wanted to cure them (like, to get Bester to help them and so on), and then when he sent everyone to Mars I had the vague idea he wanted to do something with Shadow ships, but that seems like it must be incorrect.
Like I said, I didn't guess it, either, though in retrospect this episode does provide the necessary information. JMS is gooooood like that.
There's that, but I wanted to cheer during Lise's speech with Garibaldi. I mean, after dealing with him I can see why she might have wanted to settle down with someone rich who was at least there. Garibaldi does not sound like a great love interest.
True enough, and the mere fact Garibaldi was ready to leave with Sinclair the last time he and Lise were together and expected her to wait for him justifies Lise entirely. But between Edgars "are you still in love with my wife?" and the fact he and Lise don't get scenes indicating at least some kind of emotional intimacy, it does come across as if he sees her as a pretty trophy.
because I felt like I was watching through two different lenses, and one of those lenses was him betraying Sinclair, which made it all just very intense and heartbreaking in a way it isn't when I watch the in-canon him betraying Sheridan.
Yes, I think someting like knowing Sheridan's father has a rare blood disease etc. - if this was Sinclair's father, we'd automatically assume Garibaldi knows this because Sinclair told him (and no one else) and it would be enormous and absolutely heartbreaking. We'll talk about this entire plotline some more next week, because it climaxes (and has all the reveals) in the next episode, Face of the Enemy.
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Date: 2022-08-14 01:50 pm (UTC)SPOILERS!!
Oh, I love the idea of introducing Lochley here - I agree, we don't get enough of the folks who are neither die-hard Clark people or die-hard Sheridan people, and it would have been interesting to see more of that POV especially to your point about complicity. And that would have been a great way to do it, hindsight being what it is.
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Date: 2022-08-15 12:09 pm (UTC)I think with dictatorships there are two fallacies - both to depict them as only carried by a tiny elite and the rest of the population innocently kidnapped, OR to go with basically the Orc option (everyone is mustache twirling evil). JMS when able to plan ahead is great with shades of grey (as both the Centauri and the Minbari demonstrate), and so I'm really curious how, if the reboot B5 does happen, he'll depict the Earth sliding in and out of fascism storyline this time around.
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Date: 2022-10-11 08:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-08-14 10:20 pm (UTC)I am currently very slowly working my way through DS9 start to finish for the first time really, and omg I would love a Babylon 5 version of 'Necessary Evil'.
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Date: 2022-08-15 12:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-10-11 06:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-10-14 04:46 pm (UTC)...maybe Franklin thinks Lyta does get treated as part of the station staff and paid like he is? But he shouldn't, given that neither Talia or Lyta as commercial telepaths were ever paid by EarthForce. They were part of the Psi Corps and got financial supplies from them while also sharing their earnings with the Corps. And after Lyta went rogue, the Vorlons paid for her, treating her essentially as Kosh's aide.