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selenakRising Star
This is one of those episodes where different viewing reactions pointed out my fannish myopia to me, since back in ye olde days, after first watching the series, I remember various viewers talking about how this episode broke their heart and made them cry, and I went "huh? But Londo and G'Kar were hilarious! Londo even offered to give G'Kar sexual pointers!" ....and then I remembered the beginning of the episode, and okay, yes. Poor Susan. That is an intense and heartbreaking scene, wonderfully played by Claudia Christian, and also a lovely friendship scene in Franklin's part who is just there for her, with none of the occasional know-it-allness he might have displayed in the past.
Upon this rewatch, I did think when Ivanova said "and I knew he'd never leave me, and that he'd never hurt me", that Marcus, with the best of intentions, made both these assertions untrue: in the end, he left her, and he hurt her, badly. The last thing she'd have ever wanted was Marcus giving his life for her, and now she'll feel responsible for this sacrifice till the end of her days. I don't mean that Marcus did a bad thing by saving Ivanova's life, or that he being himself could have acted otherwise once he found out about this particular healing method. But from Susan Ivanova's pov, it's devastating.
(Neroon replacing Delenn in the Wheel of Fire has a very different emotional effect on me, because Neroon didn't do it for Delenn - the way, say, Lennier would have - , he did it for the Minbari (and okay, a little bit for Delenn).)
Now Ivanova leaving the show at this point (till the end of season 5, when we see her again) is due to Doylist reasons (i.e. failed contract negotiations between Claudia Christian and the production team), but it does feel appropriate for the character. Earlier this season she'd talked with Sheridan about having dreamt of her own comand in the pre B5 days, and after this experience, I could see her wanting not to be on the station for a while, and taking the chance to captain a ship of her own is a good way to go about this. And honestly, given what we know about the storyline she'd have gotten had contract negotiations worked out, I think her leaving at this point and returning only a long time later works better for the character.
One more thing re: Ivanova: I think she got comfortable with the relationship with Marcus she had - i.e. friendship on her part, knowing he felt more but wouldn't push for more -, and one reason why I don't ship these two in the romantic sense is that with him dying the way he did, it feels a bit as if she can't not not love him now, that would make her feel even guiltier.
On the the rest of the episode, which is positively light hearted. As a young
selenak, I completely missed out on the fact that letting all those White Stars fly over the place where Sheridan was held and where the meetings took place, Delenn was making a none too subtle statement about the military might at her disposal. You bet that if Luchenko hadn't offfered Sheridan the "resign honorably, get free, stay in Earth Force, get put on trial" deal but had simply put him on trial, he wouldn't have stayed on trial for long. Of course, this also makes the later "naturally we don't force you to join Re: Sheridan as President of the Alliance - makes Watsonian sense in that Sheridan having been the one to bring and keep a war time coalition together, they'd see him as a good possible head for the peace time version as well. Doylist, wise, though... I remember writing an lengthy post about this years ago as one of the B5 flaws, and yes, I love the show dearly, it remains one of my favourite shows of all time, but I do think it is a flaw - JMS wanted to give Sheridan the Aragon ending, but Aragon becoming King of Gondor works within the kind of story LotR is, and the kind of societies it depicts. Sheridan as President of a political constellation which is supposed to be democratic is another matter. More next episode and in season 5.
Meanwhile: the scene with Bester, who wants to know whether Carolyn was one of the telepaths Sheridan used (and thus killed), has Sheridan stating that the difference between them is that Bester uses people without scruples and if they die, that's life, he shrugs it off, whereas he, Sheridan, torments himself over having used those telepaths, and also he wouldn't have made Carolyn one of them because of his Anna experience. (BTW, I think that's the last allusion to Anna Sheridan we get in the show, other than the wedding photo in the next episode.) He's not wrong overall, but he's also making assumptions. Bester shrugs off using mundanes. With telepaths, he bothers with self justifications. Incidentally, it does surprise me neither of them brings up the obvious: Sheridan wouldn't have used Carolyn because she was his hostage of sorts re: Bester, and as long as the war was still going on, he wouldn't have given up that leverage.
As someone familiar with the fifth season, I find it impossible not to read a certain something into Bester's expression when Sheridan tries to rattle him by declaring Garibaldi will get creative in his revenge.
And lastly: Londo/G'Kar OTP, for reals. When I finally got over my scruples to write slash - remember, those were the days when we put a warning disclaimer in the header of slash fiction, Great Maker, as Londo would say - , the very first thing I wrote happens right after their final conversation in this episode (with the reveal that G'Kar uses his eye to spy on Sheridan and Delenn). It was, as far as I know, the very first Londo/G'Kar story in the fandom (and believe me, I looked!), and is called In Vino Veritas.
iamsab, who like so many of the B5 crew is no longer with us, later created a wonderful podfic version. The Deconstruction of Falling Stars
I find I have mellowed towards this episode. During my last rewatch, I was ever so annoyed about what came across as self congratulatory smugness to me in the "historians" segment, not to mention the whole "Great men of history" attitude in same. (Not on their part! On the part of the narrative.) This time around, possibly due to having read JMS' autobiography, I paid more attention to the world "kind" in Old Delenn's list of attributes Sheridan had, because I remembered how important having a kind hero in Superman was to young JMS. Yes, the historians are still using strawmen (and -woman) kind of arguments, and as a satire on the "history is created by economic and socialogical developments, not great individuals" viewpoint, they're pretty crude, but it's also true that the years between my last rewatch and this have burdened us with an incredible amount of ghastly distortions when it comes to presentations of recent and not so recent history, and a present where facts may not be divided in "good facts" and "real facts" in those terms, but very much in concept, with an increasing amount of people convinced that yes, everyone has the right to their own facts, and reality is what their ideological leader tells them it is. Meaning: the next segment (after the strawmen historians) lands much harder this time around, when I don't have historical or literary but rl associations.
(Something that does have an historical aura is, as ever, the very 90s way ISN presents the news in the first segment and the talk show is set up in the second.)
Something else that hadn't occured to me before is that while this episode was written and shot on very short notice after an incredibly exhaustive season, it picks an experimental format - which should make things more difficult, but somehow evidently didn't - and does it pretty well. The post apocalyptic monks remind me of Brother Theo, and I appreciate it's the rotund middle-aged one, not the young handsome one, who is the secret ranger, plus the discussion about belief and rationalism, and that both are needed to continue, feels very timely.
Another rewatch effect: noticing the clues for s5 JMS drops. There is the big completely spelled out via scene one - Sheridan will permit a telepath colony on Babylon 5, and it will result, among other things, in an ugly hostage situation, plus he'll call it the biggest mistake of his life - but also, note Sheridan in the segment with captured!Garibaldi says "I have consulted with Captain Lochley". This is the first time Lochley's name is mentioned on the show, and when I originally watched this episode, I hadn't noticed what this signified. (Among other things, that JMS must have made up his mind pretty quickly about what to do with no Claudia Christian/Ivanova.) Also, one the historians says "Babylon 5 is - well, was", meaning Babylon 5 does not exist anymore in her present. And thn there's the reference to Sheridan's death and something odd about it.
Back to the post apocalyptic monks: I have to say, it's v. iunjust that stories about Lorien survived but not about G'Kar The Brave and Eloquent. Pfff.
Humans having developed into a First One/Vorlon type of energy being a millennium or more into the future in the last segment: JMS is way more optimistic than RTD. (Toclafane, anyone?) Mind you, the show is careful to make this energy being different enough from the Vorlons (or the Shadows, for that matter, or Lorien) to make it clear it's a different species, and the show doesn't imply the Vorlons were time travelled futuristic humans. Simply that eventually humanity will become one of the older races. After a history which includes both centuries of peace and nearly wiping each other out plus falling back into the dark ages. It's a very cyclical view of history, and I'm having Middle Earth thoughts again.
And then the "so there, doubters! I did it!" dedication at the end: aw, JMS. Again, I'm seeing this much mellower as I am older. Now I'm imagining a very exhausted man who did, on a tiny budget and with all kind of obstacles, really pull off a marvellous series, a novel on television as he wanted it to be, and I think: he's entitled.
That's it for season 4; bring on season 5! (Which, yes, is essential to the story. If the show had ended here plus Sleeping in Light, then neither Londo's nor G'Kar's nor Lyta's stories would have been complete, and I'm sorry, but Centauri and Narn still are the heart of the tale for me, and amputating Londo's story in particular would have been a crime. Also I like Lochley.)
The Other Episodes
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Date: 2022-09-04 03:49 am (UTC)-Re: Ivanova: I went straight into this episode after the previous one because I NEEDED to know what happened to Ivanova, so in some sense that scene feels to me as if it belongs in the previous episode. But yes, poor Ivanova :(
-Okay, now I can tell you about MY fannish myopia, which is that my big memory of this episode is that scene with Lennier and Delenn where I am like, DELENN. DUDE. WHY ARE YOU MESSING WITH LENNIER'S MIND THIS WAY. YOU ARE ENGAGED TO ANOTHER GUY. DO NOT LEAD HIM ON LIKE THIS.
Me: Okay, but, like, I don't usually cup my friends' faces in my hand and assure them that LOVE IS REQUITED.
No wonder Lennier snaps in S5 or whatever he does that you guys keep talking about but that I don't know (so don't spoil me :) ) It is a very shippy scene though and now I know why people ship Delenn/Lennier! I kind of don't ship it in the requited sense because I often have issues with power-dynamic relationships (unless they're super messed up and/or complicated, as you know... well, okay, actually I could get behind this one too if it were messed up and complicated), but now I have wild fantasies of the AU where Delenn suddenly realizes at the last minute before marrying Sheridan that actually she is in love with Lennier, because the scene was THAT shippy.
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Date: 2022-09-04 08:39 am (UTC):) Well, Londo does the face cupping with Vir a couple of times, but the vibe is somehow... different. I will say that 5.02, The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, which is an episode I draw sparkly hearts around in my mind the way Lehndorff does around Heinrich's name for the Londo content, has a Delenn & Lennier subplot which is somewhat (only somewhat) illuminating regarding what Delenn thinks she's doing and what she's feeling.
When I did my first B5 rewatch, back when the dvds got released, I remember
I'll tell you my own take after 5.02, because it has some useful quotes regarding this matter, and I don't want to spoil the scene in question for you by using them now.
However, here's a question for you as long as your're still on a season 4 level of knowledge: in your opinion, does Delenn know how Lennier feels or doesn't she?
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Date: 2022-09-05 05:15 am (UTC)LOL! True, I'd forgotten! But Londo is kind of like that with everyone, and also Vir very very much does not have a crush on Londo and it's very evident in his body language :D Whereas I don't get the sense that Minbari touch each other casually in the same way that Londo will put his arms around anyone... But this is why I love your story about Vir and love! <3
I remember [personal profile] deborah_judge being a big Delenn/Lennier shipper who argued that if you turn the sound of, their body language is such that if you asked a new watcher who is supposed to be in unrequited love with whom, they'd guess Delenn.
Yeah, I was rewatching bits of "Atonement" last week because I wanted to remind myself of what happened in it, and yeeeeah after being primed by this scene, it really did pop out at me that in "Atonement" Lennier acts in a very romantic position, both in terms of body language (they really do body-language there as a couple) and in terms of the narrative (he shares with her this intimate private moment and secrets that her OWN FIANCE doesn't even know about! he is her guardian and her guide! etc.) -- if it had been my intro to B5 I would have 100% thought they were meant to be shippy.
Also there's that speech she gives Neroon about how Lennier is, oh, I don't remember, the light of her life and the wind beneath her wings and all that. Which is hilarious to me because that scene does read to me as very not shippy either with Neroon (whose body language response is, sure, sounds legit!) or with Lennier, but the words are very shippy and spoken to someone who has a bunch of chemistry with her.
does Delenn know how Lennier feels or doesn't she?
My immediate reaction to this scene was "She can't possibly know that he has a crush on her because if she did she'd never talk to him about requited love like THAT; she'd never talk about him the way she did to Neroon!"
Although upon reflection I could imagine that she does know that he has a crush on her but sort of downplays it in her head, like, don't all young Minbari have crushes on their mentors, he'll get over it just like she got over her crush on Dukhat
even if not before she started a literal war over it, AHEM Delenn. But if so, it's still a very unaware and kind of mean thing she's doing, in my opinion.no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 07:03 am (UTC)But Londo is kind of like that with everyone, and also Vir very very much does not have a crush on Londo and it's very evident in his body language :D Whereas I don't get the sense that Minbari touch each other casually in the same way that Londo will put his arms around anyone...
True. Beyond this being a Londo thing, I think the Centauri in general are more tactile than the Minbari, their respective greetings being a case in point. (Minbari bowing to each other - meaning there's no physical contact - , Centauri grabbing each other's underarms (checking for weapons, among other things). It's also worth pointing out that I don't remember Delenn being very tactile with the friends we do see her with, like Shal Mayan and Draal in season 1, though I can't swear that there is no physical contact. Just to play devil's advocate (for shippers), though: it's also possible that she sees Lennier as the Minbari son she'll never have. (In addition to seeing him as her protegé and successor.) In which case the physical tenderness and general intensity would not be romantic in nature. (Disclaimer: this is not a reading based on anything Delenn says on the show at any point, I'm just throwing you a curveball, so to speak.)
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Date: 2022-09-04 04:18 pm (UTC)Of course, this also makes the later "naturally we don't force you to join the Federation our new Alliance, it's completely up to you" statement somewhat less... hm...than democratic. I mean, not that I believe Delenn and/or Sheridan would have used the White Star Fleet against Earth had Earth refused to join the Alliance, of course they hadn't. But this is a population which was told by Clark's propaganda non stop this was exactly what Sheridan and Delenn would do, and Delenn had to know that.
I suppose it's not entirely out of character, given she does have form for resolving tricky political situations by pulling rank/turning up with superior military forces! But even so, given the context here it does come across a little differently to e.g. the "if you value your lives, be somewhere else" speech.
You do wonder what that would have felt like to anyone watching from Earth, who didn't already share the point of view she - and maybe the Minbari in general - seem to have of "the imposition of unilateral decisions and threats of force is only wrong if the motivation behind it is wrong, but if the good guys do it for the right reasons it's probably fine." Even when Neroon has that not-unreasonable objection to her leading the Rangers on the grounds that she's now a religious fanatic with her own army, he doesn't change his mind because she talks him round on how the Rangers are being run, but because they'll follow her and they're behaving in a way that fits his own honour code.
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Date: 2022-09-05 05:19 am (UTC)Ohhhh, this is a very good point and I hadn't really articulated that to myself. Minbari are weird! (Also, hee to "she's now a religious fanatic with her own army," it's funny because it's true.)
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Date: 2022-09-05 07:08 am (UTC)Especially since a) the defense grid is in tatters (thanks, Clark), meaning Earth is more or less helpless right now, b) the last time the Minbari could have wiped out humanity even without Vorlon technology giving them an additional technological boost, and c) they've now been exposed to two years of unrelenting xenophobic propaganda, and even if they don't believe all of it, or much of it, something is bound to stick.
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Date: 2022-09-04 08:51 pm (UTC)Vague spoiler next - I presume *that* story, with that character and those particular features that are so reminiscent of someone, were intended for Ivanova rather than the person who gets them. I wonder how much of *that* story not quite working is because they didn't have enough time to fully rewrite it to match *spoiler's* story and how much of it is that *other spoiler* is supposed to reflect *spoilery but obvious character*.
Re: Deconstruction - I like that when older Delenn appears, it's obvious that this is still the woman who was used to commanding White Stars. She remains Delenn even then.
Bit too - VR Garibaldi - the dangers of giving your AI too much I.
Re: Medieval monks - I did love cuddly monk, and presume younger monk is supposed to remind me of Marcus, because if not deliberate ...
Human!Vorlons - yes, it's very Middle-Earth, I think probably the most Middle Earthy bit (which I think makes the Narn the Dwarves ... which yep, that fits). JMS is also optimistic in the idea of "these are the things that last" and that, hopefully, the truth will win out.
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Date: 2022-09-05 07:16 am (UTC)Spoilery thoughts: well, that, and I've always assumed (without any JMS quote to back me up) that *spoiler* would have helped Ivanova develop her latent telepathy (maybe the loss of Marcus as an emotional crisis would have removed barriers she unconsciously had put in place to prevent that), which would have further made the story work. I mean, giving Ivanova latent psi abilities and only use this in two episodes (Divided Loyalties and Ship of Tears) otherwise seems something of a waste? And of course Ivanova as a fully active telepath would have been in a massive identity crisis, given how she has defined herself through most of her life.
VR Garibaldi - the dangers of giving your AI too much I.
Indeed, and not considering that by giving everyone their original personality traits before reprogramming them, they might find a way to act on them in time!
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Date: 2022-09-05 05:00 am (UTC)and also a lovely friendship scene in Franklin's part who is just there for her, with none of the occasional know-it-allness he might have displayed in the past.
Aw yeah, go Franklin <3 I did really like that.
But from Susan Ivanova's pov, it's devastating.
Yes! And this is why I'm so upset with him for not bringing Lennier along :P (I know, I know, he was being all self-sacrificial and didn't think of it. BUT HE SHOULD HAVE.)
(Neroon replacing Delenn in the Wheel of Fire has a very different emotional effect on me, because Neroon didn't do it for Delenn - the way, say, Lennier would have - , he did it for the Minbari (and okay, a little bit for Delenn).)
Yes! I got the impression he would have done it for anyone he thought had a good chance of holding Minbari society together. Also, I did not get the impression he had a Lennier-like crush on Delenn :) (Though I obviously see the ship! But it's more of a potential ship/UST vibes than unrequited love.)
(with the reveal that G'Kar uses his eye to spy on Sheridan and Delenn)
I lol'ed forever at that. G'Kar!!
During my last rewatch, I was ever so annoyed about what came across as self congratulatory smugness to me in the "historians" segment, not to mention the whole "Great men of history" attitude in same.
So, I confess that I found it hilarious and part of this is actually your fault, because I was thinking of your Voltaire story Anonymous the whole time :) I mean, it was definitely a caricature and it definitely suffered from Sheridan Is Right And Can Do No Wrong, but I guess I'd already had to deal with that. (I imagine it was quite different for a watcher who didn't have someone tell her from the very beginning that this was going to be the case for Sheridan.)
Sheridan will permit a telepath colony on Babylon 5, and it will result, among other things, in an ugly hostage situation, plus he'll call it the biggest mistake of his life
I've watched most of S5 Ep 1 now, and I'm so interested to see how this all plays out! Or possibly dreading it. Anyway, curious.
I also thought it was very darkly hilarious that Garibaldi's prevention of history rewriting precipitated a worldwide catastrophe that they're still recovering from hundreds of years later. It reminds me of something out of a James Tiptree story or something. (Well, specifically, it reminds me of "The Man Who Walked Home," I guess.)
I also loved Brother Alwyn's discssion of faith, which I think is probably the most awesome description of faith I've ever seen on a TV show, although it is somewhat undercut by his not actually having faith (since he actually knows the Rangers are back, and is one).
Simply that eventually humanity will become one of the older races.
I really liked this too!
And then the "so there, doubters! I did it!" dedication at the end: aw, JMS.
I kind of laughed at it when I saw it, but I mean, there's also the meta that I'm watching this for the first time in 2022, twenty-five years later, and am hella impressed by it. It's got its missteps and some of it has aged, but really, it's so impressive and a really surprising number of things have held up... It's an achievement to be proud of.
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Date: 2022-09-05 07:32 am (UTC)True. Though again, given Marcus in s3 volunteers for every seemingly kamikaze mission that comes his way, having that much of an instinct for self preservation and foresight would have been entirely ooc.
I got the impression he would have done it for anyone he thought had a good chance of holding Minbari society together.
Absolutely. If the person about to burn into a crisp had been Minbari Second From the Right whom we've never met before but who exposition tells us could be a figurehead uniting the Minbari, Neroon would have still volunteered.
G'Kar!!
Well, as I let him observe in my story, interspecies mating habits are a long term interest of his. *g*
I also thought it was very darkly hilarious that Garibaldi's prevention of history rewriting precipitated a worldwide catastrophe that they're still recovering from hundreds of years later.
In defense of VR Garibaldi, it sounds like that war would have happeneed no matter what sooner or later, but... yeah. Btw, I haven't read the story yet, so thank you for the link! Will read as soon as I can.
I also loved Brother Alwyn's discssion of faith
Same here. In general, I think B5 is that rarity, a tv show taking faith (in various forms) seriously without pushing a pro or anti agenda.
It's an achievement to be proud of.
It is, and despite liking several other creative works of his - in comics, in a movie and on tv (i.e. he co-created Sense8 with the Wachowskis, for example, and it shows in a good way) -, I think I can safely say this is the one I'll always associate first and foremost with him and honor him for.
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Date: 2022-10-19 08:53 am (UTC)Alwyn does have faith. Just because he knows the Rangers are real, does not mean he doesn't have faith. I think all the Rangers I've seen have faith of one kind of another (with the possible exception of Marcus).
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Date: 2022-09-05 10:37 pm (UTC)Is it possible that Luchenko was hoping what happened to Churchill would happen to Sheridan - sort of "he was good for war, get someone else in for peace" at the next election.
season 5 spoilers
Date: 2022-09-06 07:46 am (UTC)This said, I think a lot has to do with the season4/ season 5 problem, i.e. if JMS had known in time he'd get his fifth season, Sheridan wouldn't have become President until the fifth season was half over, and thus we wouldn't have seen much of his presidency and could have accepted he'd become a good one.
Re: season 5 spoilers
Date: 2022-09-06 12:02 pm (UTC)I always want the show to have been more deliberate about showing us that he will become a good president, but actually the transition from military leadership / dictatorship to pseudo-democratic leadership is actually really bumpy. Which is what we see, but then instead of letting that be the point, the show tells us otherwise. It remains a very odd set of decisions.
Anyway, more when we get there!
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Date: 2022-10-14 11:42 am (UTC)What would the storyline have been? (I don't actually know)
I just love the relationship between Londo and G'Kar at this point!
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Date: 2022-10-14 04:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-10-18 06:28 pm (UTC)Though JMS might have been able to convince me.