Lucy Worsley: Courtiers
Mar. 11th, 2023 08:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakThis is a delightful book given to me as a Christmas present by kathyh. Subtitle: "The Secret History of the Georgian Court", it covers the era between the time of Georg Ludwig, Prince Elector of Han(n)over, becoming King George I. of England, and the death of George II, with a brief "Where are they now?" overview about the last of the protagonists spending their final years during George III's reign. The "Georgian" designation not withstanding, I can understand why Lucy Worsley makes a break after G2's death, since the court culture changes with the new incoming young King, the third George and the first one to be born and raised in Britain (and will of course change again once he has his final nervous breakdown and we get into the Regency era).
While the lives of the first two Hannover Kings, their wife (in the case of the second George), children and mistresses form the red thread through the narrative, the central focus is more often than not on the courtiers of the title, with the main protagonists other than the Royals being Lord and Lady Hervey (nee Molly Lepell), Henrietta Howard, Peter Wentworth, "Wild Peter", G1's Turkish bodyservants Muhammad and Mustafa, and in the last fourth or so Horace Walpole the younger. Now, I've read and reviewed several of the memoirs and biographies quoted in this book (which allowed me to nitpick a little, more about this later because I'm a show-off this way), but there still was enough new to me to make me treasure the book for the additional information alone. Luckily for me, it's also very entertainingly written. Mind you, while Lucy Worsley accurately points out source bias in, say, Lord Hervey, she then does things like ten pages later reproducing only slightly paraphrased Hervey's account without saying a) the story is from him and b) he's the only source.
It's also a very British book in that while Worsley laudably refutes several of the older clichés about the Georges (such as G1 being undereducated when in fact he spoke more languages than most of his usually monolingual English courtiers - English unfortunately was the one he learned last and spoke worst), you can tell her impressive bibliography is 99% British in origin, and the rest is translated. This sometimes means the reproduction of older errors - more about this in a moment - and sometimes it means repetitive descriptions - so every time a German principality is mentioned, be it Hannover itself or Queen Caroline's native Ansbach or Princess Augusta's state of origin, it is "sleepy". Sidenote re: Hannover, compared to London, sure. Compared to just about every other British city? Not so much. Thanks largely to the only recently dead Sophie (granddaughter of James I and VI and reason why her son Georg Ludwig became George I), it had a thriving cultural life, with Leibniz as one of the top stars, politically, it had accumulated enough power to become an Electorate in the first place before getting the British crown and was one of the prime movers and shakers in the HRE. And of course bloodlines are ridiculous, but given all the fuss the British nobility made about their new German sovereigns as recent upstars, it's worth pointing out that the Hannover clan were Welfs, i.e. they were members of one of the oldest noble families of Europe, who could trace their ancestors back to to the time of Charlemagne, which is more than any of the snobby English aristocrats would have been able to do, who were usually lucky of they had ancestors going back further than the Tudors. Lastly, that enterprising and witty travelling English writer, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, did visit Hannover as most British visitors did at the time and had a great deal of sarcastic observations to make, but something that really impressed her were the (then) modern housing facilities, especially the tiled stoves, which she would have much liked to have in often damp London.
(Speaking of Lady Mary, she is alas quoted and referenced re: tie innocculation against smallpox innovation - but not one of the courtiers focused upon in this book, which I can understand because Lucy Worsley went for people who really lived at court nearly all the time, and this was only briefly true of Lady Mary.)
Within that selection of characters, I appreciated we got as much about the Turkish attendants of G1 as we did; they're written as characters, not set decorations, and they're other than "Wild Peter" and late in the day G2's mistress Amalie von Waldenburg (later Lady Yarmouth) the only non-English courtiers. (Which is unsurprising due to the lack of German sources used.) They're also a counterpoint to an otherwise near exclusively aristocratic cast, though with the focus on court life, the booik neither intends to nor does provide a cultural history of Engliand in the era per se. The character who surprised me most, due to the difference of what I had read before and how Lucy Worsley described her, was Molly Lepell, later Lady Hervey. How she shows up in, say, her husband's biography or Leonhard Horowski's immensely entertaining "Das Jahrhundert der Könige": one of Caroline's maids of honor, marries for love future biting memoirist and bisexual icon Lord Hervey, who proceeds to fall out of love and neglects or ignores her for most of the remaining marriage while persuing his affairs, and then treats her meanly in his last will as a final insult, for not only does he explicitly not give her more than he absolutely has to, legal-wise, but he wants their children raised by someone else (this clause was subsequently ignored). The words "long-suffering" are used more than once by both Hervey's biographer and Horowski. Just about the only explanation I had found in Hervey's memoirs for why he didn't just grow indifferent to his wife but came to dislike her when she seems to have been liked by most other people was that she favoured the guy politically he later dueled with (not about her! the guy basically described him as gay as openly as you could as a bitchy Georgian courtier, in an age where sodomy was still a capital offense).
Meanwhile, Worsley: attributes the fallout between the Herveys in addition to these factors to a brief but intense flirtation Molly had with G1, quotes her as saying children bore her and she can't stand being with them (this makes the clause in the last will look different) and describes Molly then becoming an open Jacobite, which for a Georgian career courtier certainly is...original. (Sadly, Worsley does not include what used to be my favourite story involving Molly, the fact that when Hervey's passion du jour, 18th century sex pot Francesco Algarotti, got a call from Prussia from newly ascended to the throne Frederick the Great, he departed so quickly from Hervey's lodgings that almost his entire luggage remained behind, and Molly was the one to pack it and mail it to Algarotti in Berlin.) Anyway, Molly is still a cheated on wife in Worsley's book, but anything but long suffering and with a spiky personality of her own.
The potentially saddest story which I was afraid would go horribly but which then turned out to go far better than most other similar cases was that of "Wild Peter", a feral boy found in the woods in the Hannover principality who didn't wear any clothing and could not speak. Bearing in mind the most famous case of similar "wild children" , Kaspar Hauser, I braced myself for impending tragedy as the kid was treated as a mascot/pet which G1 and his daughter-in-law Caroline competed for for a time and who attracted a lot of curiosity as well as scientific attention. But as opposed to other cases, Peter fared relatively well. He never did learn to speak, and after Caroline's death, the crown paid a succession of farmers to take care of him in the countryside, but he wasn't abused, or forced to work, and he became very attached to his caretakers. While no one was ever sure how old exactly he was, he seems to have died of natural causes as an older man". The fascination "Wild Peter" caused for a while was a very 18th century thing with all the musings about the "natural state of men" and the debate on how language was formed, and again, I can understand why Worsley picked him and not, say, Händel.
The constant family soap opera with fierce intergenerational fights that marked the Hannover royal family and accordingly split the courtiers who always had to decide whether to go with the royals in power or bet on the Prince of Wales and future preferement is reported with relish but also more sympathy than their contemporaries had, with Worsley good at reminding her readers of long term causes in this series of family dysfunctionalities. Where we miss out, and that's not a big complaint because you can only include so much before readers get hopelessly confused, are all the continental cross connections. I mean, I can understand Lord Hervey getting bored by G2 treating genealogy as one of his two favourite subjects and regularly tuning out - I'd have, too -, but who was related to whom actually was politically relevant in that century, sometimes caused wars, and on a less bloody but still important scale, completely alters the perception of relationships in question. Thus Worsley, following Hervey, repeats his quip that a certain "Countess d' Elitz" slept with G1, G2 and Frederick, Prince of Wales. Except that the lady in question was Anna Luise von der Schulenburg, Countess of Dölitz, illegitimate daughter of G1 and his mistress Melusine von der Schulenburg. (One of three daughters; Worsley is only ware of the younger two.) Now keep in mind Hervey doesn't claim three generations incest has been going on (and he so would have). Bored-by-German genealogy Hervey simply wasn't aware of the actual relationship but did notice the woman was hanging out and treated with intimacy by three generations of Hannovers. (More about this here.) This is a similar mistake to the one most Georgian courtiers and following them lots of British historians made about the Countess von Platen, G1's half sister, the illegitimate daughter of his father Ernst August, whom they thought was his alternate mistress to Melusine von Schulenburg until someone finally bothered to check out the German sources, only Worsley is aware of that one, while missing out on the "D'Elitz/Dölitz" case.
(Sidenote: in case you're wondering, this being the gossipy 18th century, the German courtiers and memoirists so would have reported incest gossip - they sure did in the cause of Augustus the Strong of Saxony and his favourite daughter - but in this case, there is zilch. It simply was customary to treat your (noble) illegitimate children as part of your family for the Hannover clan. Noting the familiarity, speaking little French and no German, the English aristocrats promptly went for the wrong conclusion.)
And speaking of German relations, when I read that G2 and Caroline's daughter Amalie/Emily - who remained unmarried - never had a prince interested who could have been a serious match, I imagined generations of Prussian historians having coughing attacks. In the interminable saga dubbed "The English marriage project" that provided the fodder of the fierce marital warfare between Frederick the Great's parents, with his mother, G2's sister Sophia Dorothea, wishing for nothing more than to marry her oldest son and daughter to their Hannover cousins and his father Frederick William going from luke warm to actively against it, future Frederick the Great was not just the intended groom for Amalie/Emily but actually pledged himself in writing to marry only her in a letter to Queen Caroline which when found out resulted in his abusive father‘s most famous explosions and beat downs. I mean, it's not that I'm unaware G2 wasn't any more keen on those marriages than Frederick William, and so they never had much of a chance to happen, but the fact of the matter is, young Friedrich did propose, and certainly he was an interested prince who could have been a serious match. (Two more Frederick the Great trivia not appearing in this volume, his tragically to be executed boyfriend Hans Herrmann von Katte was losely related to Melusine von Schulenburg, visited Britain in the late 1720s and had a brief flirtation with one of her daughters, the later Lady Chesterfield. Oh, and Molly Lepell/Lady Hervey was directly related to the guy in charge of Küstrin who had to oversee Katte's execution and Frederick's imprisonment.)
Anyway, these are just minor nitpicks, and since they concern matters not really the focus of the book, they did not take away from my enjoyment of it at all. It really does paint a vivid picture of 18th century court life and of all the invidiuals Worsley chose to highlight, and has not one boring page in it.
kathyh. Subtitle: "The Secret History of the Georgian Court", it covers the era between the time of Georg Ludwig, Prince Elector of Han(n)over, becoming King George I. of England, and the death of George II, with a brief "Where are they now?" overview about the last of the protagonists spending their final years during George III's reign. The "Georgian" designation not withstanding, I can understand why Lucy Worsley makes a break after G2's death, since the court culture changes with the new incoming young King, the third George and the first one to be born and raised in Britain (and will of course change again once he has his final nervous breakdown and we get into the Regency era). While the lives of the first two Hannover Kings, their wife (in the case of the second George), children and mistresses form the red thread through the narrative, the central focus is more often than not on the courtiers of the title, with the main protagonists other than the Royals being Lord and Lady Hervey (nee Molly Lepell), Henrietta Howard, Peter Wentworth, "Wild Peter", G1's Turkish bodyservants Muhammad and Mustafa, and in the last fourth or so Horace Walpole the younger. Now, I've read and reviewed several of the memoirs and biographies quoted in this book (which allowed me to nitpick a little, more about this later because I'm a show-off this way), but there still was enough new to me to make me treasure the book for the additional information alone. Luckily for me, it's also very entertainingly written. Mind you, while Lucy Worsley accurately points out source bias in, say, Lord Hervey, she then does things like ten pages later reproducing only slightly paraphrased Hervey's account without saying a) the story is from him and b) he's the only source.
It's also a very British book in that while Worsley laudably refutes several of the older clichés about the Georges (such as G1 being undereducated when in fact he spoke more languages than most of his usually monolingual English courtiers - English unfortunately was the one he learned last and spoke worst), you can tell her impressive bibliography is 99% British in origin, and the rest is translated. This sometimes means the reproduction of older errors - more about this in a moment - and sometimes it means repetitive descriptions - so every time a German principality is mentioned, be it Hannover itself or Queen Caroline's native Ansbach or Princess Augusta's state of origin, it is "sleepy". Sidenote re: Hannover, compared to London, sure. Compared to just about every other British city? Not so much. Thanks largely to the only recently dead Sophie (granddaughter of James I and VI and reason why her son Georg Ludwig became George I), it had a thriving cultural life, with Leibniz as one of the top stars, politically, it had accumulated enough power to become an Electorate in the first place before getting the British crown and was one of the prime movers and shakers in the HRE. And of course bloodlines are ridiculous, but given all the fuss the British nobility made about their new German sovereigns as recent upstars, it's worth pointing out that the Hannover clan were Welfs, i.e. they were members of one of the oldest noble families of Europe, who could trace their ancestors back to to the time of Charlemagne, which is more than any of the snobby English aristocrats would have been able to do, who were usually lucky of they had ancestors going back further than the Tudors. Lastly, that enterprising and witty travelling English writer, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, did visit Hannover as most British visitors did at the time and had a great deal of sarcastic observations to make, but something that really impressed her were the (then) modern housing facilities, especially the tiled stoves, which she would have much liked to have in often damp London.
(Speaking of Lady Mary, she is alas quoted and referenced re: tie innocculation against smallpox innovation - but not one of the courtiers focused upon in this book, which I can understand because Lucy Worsley went for people who really lived at court nearly all the time, and this was only briefly true of Lady Mary.)
Within that selection of characters, I appreciated we got as much about the Turkish attendants of G1 as we did; they're written as characters, not set decorations, and they're other than "Wild Peter" and late in the day G2's mistress Amalie von Waldenburg (later Lady Yarmouth) the only non-English courtiers. (Which is unsurprising due to the lack of German sources used.) They're also a counterpoint to an otherwise near exclusively aristocratic cast, though with the focus on court life, the booik neither intends to nor does provide a cultural history of Engliand in the era per se. The character who surprised me most, due to the difference of what I had read before and how Lucy Worsley described her, was Molly Lepell, later Lady Hervey. How she shows up in, say, her husband's biography or Leonhard Horowski's immensely entertaining "Das Jahrhundert der Könige": one of Caroline's maids of honor, marries for love future biting memoirist and bisexual icon Lord Hervey, who proceeds to fall out of love and neglects or ignores her for most of the remaining marriage while persuing his affairs, and then treats her meanly in his last will as a final insult, for not only does he explicitly not give her more than he absolutely has to, legal-wise, but he wants their children raised by someone else (this clause was subsequently ignored). The words "long-suffering" are used more than once by both Hervey's biographer and Horowski. Just about the only explanation I had found in Hervey's memoirs for why he didn't just grow indifferent to his wife but came to dislike her when she seems to have been liked by most other people was that she favoured the guy politically he later dueled with (not about her! the guy basically described him as gay as openly as you could as a bitchy Georgian courtier, in an age where sodomy was still a capital offense).
Meanwhile, Worsley: attributes the fallout between the Herveys in addition to these factors to a brief but intense flirtation Molly had with G1, quotes her as saying children bore her and she can't stand being with them (this makes the clause in the last will look different) and describes Molly then becoming an open Jacobite, which for a Georgian career courtier certainly is...original. (Sadly, Worsley does not include what used to be my favourite story involving Molly, the fact that when Hervey's passion du jour, 18th century sex pot Francesco Algarotti, got a call from Prussia from newly ascended to the throne Frederick the Great, he departed so quickly from Hervey's lodgings that almost his entire luggage remained behind, and Molly was the one to pack it and mail it to Algarotti in Berlin.) Anyway, Molly is still a cheated on wife in Worsley's book, but anything but long suffering and with a spiky personality of her own.
The potentially saddest story which I was afraid would go horribly but which then turned out to go far better than most other similar cases was that of "Wild Peter", a feral boy found in the woods in the Hannover principality who didn't wear any clothing and could not speak. Bearing in mind the most famous case of similar "wild children" , Kaspar Hauser, I braced myself for impending tragedy as the kid was treated as a mascot/pet which G1 and his daughter-in-law Caroline competed for for a time and who attracted a lot of curiosity as well as scientific attention. But as opposed to other cases, Peter fared relatively well. He never did learn to speak, and after Caroline's death, the crown paid a succession of farmers to take care of him in the countryside, but he wasn't abused, or forced to work, and he became very attached to his caretakers. While no one was ever sure how old exactly he was, he seems to have died of natural causes as an older man". The fascination "Wild Peter" caused for a while was a very 18th century thing with all the musings about the "natural state of men" and the debate on how language was formed, and again, I can understand why Worsley picked him and not, say, Händel.
The constant family soap opera with fierce intergenerational fights that marked the Hannover royal family and accordingly split the courtiers who always had to decide whether to go with the royals in power or bet on the Prince of Wales and future preferement is reported with relish but also more sympathy than their contemporaries had, with Worsley good at reminding her readers of long term causes in this series of family dysfunctionalities. Where we miss out, and that's not a big complaint because you can only include so much before readers get hopelessly confused, are all the continental cross connections. I mean, I can understand Lord Hervey getting bored by G2 treating genealogy as one of his two favourite subjects and regularly tuning out - I'd have, too -, but who was related to whom actually was politically relevant in that century, sometimes caused wars, and on a less bloody but still important scale, completely alters the perception of relationships in question. Thus Worsley, following Hervey, repeats his quip that a certain "Countess d' Elitz" slept with G1, G2 and Frederick, Prince of Wales. Except that the lady in question was Anna Luise von der Schulenburg, Countess of Dölitz, illegitimate daughter of G1 and his mistress Melusine von der Schulenburg. (One of three daughters; Worsley is only ware of the younger two.) Now keep in mind Hervey doesn't claim three generations incest has been going on (and he so would have). Bored-by-German genealogy Hervey simply wasn't aware of the actual relationship but did notice the woman was hanging out and treated with intimacy by three generations of Hannovers. (More about this here.) This is a similar mistake to the one most Georgian courtiers and following them lots of British historians made about the Countess von Platen, G1's half sister, the illegitimate daughter of his father Ernst August, whom they thought was his alternate mistress to Melusine von Schulenburg until someone finally bothered to check out the German sources, only Worsley is aware of that one, while missing out on the "D'Elitz/Dölitz" case.
(Sidenote: in case you're wondering, this being the gossipy 18th century, the German courtiers and memoirists so would have reported incest gossip - they sure did in the cause of Augustus the Strong of Saxony and his favourite daughter - but in this case, there is zilch. It simply was customary to treat your (noble) illegitimate children as part of your family for the Hannover clan. Noting the familiarity, speaking little French and no German, the English aristocrats promptly went for the wrong conclusion.)
And speaking of German relations, when I read that G2 and Caroline's daughter Amalie/Emily - who remained unmarried - never had a prince interested who could have been a serious match, I imagined generations of Prussian historians having coughing attacks. In the interminable saga dubbed "The English marriage project" that provided the fodder of the fierce marital warfare between Frederick the Great's parents, with his mother, G2's sister Sophia Dorothea, wishing for nothing more than to marry her oldest son and daughter to their Hannover cousins and his father Frederick William going from luke warm to actively against it, future Frederick the Great was not just the intended groom for Amalie/Emily but actually pledged himself in writing to marry only her in a letter to Queen Caroline which when found out resulted in his abusive father‘s most famous explosions and beat downs. I mean, it's not that I'm unaware G2 wasn't any more keen on those marriages than Frederick William, and so they never had much of a chance to happen, but the fact of the matter is, young Friedrich did propose, and certainly he was an interested prince who could have been a serious match. (Two more Frederick the Great trivia not appearing in this volume, his tragically to be executed boyfriend Hans Herrmann von Katte was losely related to Melusine von Schulenburg, visited Britain in the late 1720s and had a brief flirtation with one of her daughters, the later Lady Chesterfield. Oh, and Molly Lepell/Lady Hervey was directly related to the guy in charge of Küstrin who had to oversee Katte's execution and Frederick's imprisonment.)
Anyway, these are just minor nitpicks, and since they concern matters not really the focus of the book, they did not take away from my enjoyment of it at all. It really does paint a vivid picture of 18th century court life and of all the invidiuals Worsley chose to highlight, and has not one boring page in it.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-11 09:03 pm (UTC)Hahaha, wow. Okay, Brits!
quotes her as saying children bore her and she can't stand being with them (this makes the clause in the last will look different)
It really does! Is there a source for this quote?
a brief but intense flirtation Molly had with G2...describes Molly then beccoming an open Jacobite, which for a Georgian career courtier certainly is...original.
No, wait, go back. She had an intense flirtation with G2 and *then* decided he should be kicked off the throne? Forget Georgian career courtier, what did G2 *do* to her? I have so many questions!
My first reaction was that Jacobitism was popular among women, or so I remember--what the actual statistically validated demographics were,
Bored-by-German genealogy Hervey simply wasn't aware of the actual relationship
But in this case (unlike with the Countess von Platen), it wasn't just Hervey being bored by genealogy: Hatton says the paternity was reconstructed later by scholars, contemporaries didn't know about it, and it's not even clear whether the illegitimate children *themselves* knew G1 was their father and Melusine was their mother. So if Hatton's correct, there's really no way Hervey could have known. And any fictional treatments that have Katte knowing because it's common knowledge are highly suspect.
G2 and Caroline's daughter Amalie/Emily - who remained unmarried - never had a prince interested who could have been a serious match
???? Wow.
I'm really glad you read this book, especially for the Molly Lepel tidbits! I need to know more about her now.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-12 09:28 am (UTC)What I thought. I mean, it's one thing for Jonathan Swift to have a go at German principalities by depicting them as Liliput - he's a satirist punching above at his Hanovarian overlords. But for factually meant 21st century descriptions...
It really does! Is there a source for this quote?
Lucy Worsley laudably always employs footnotes when quoting (as opposed to paraphrasing), and thus yes, there is: "SRO 941/21/2 (II), "A Character of Lady Mary Hervey", f.3."
Now what registration this is a shorthand for is alas beyond me at the moment. However, I shall provide you with the passage in question:
(Molly) had dutifully provided a whole string of Hervey heirs. Named for the king, her own George was born in 1721, followed by Augustus. Molly also had two daughters, Lepell and Mary. Frederick, her third son, born in 1730, was a puny infant, and his grandfather thought his weak physique had been caused by the pregnant Molly's irresponsible fondness for "dancing, morning suppers, shapr wines, china organes, &c." Three more children would follow, making a total of eight. Yet Molly was distinctly unmaternal. "I mortally hate children and am uneasy when they are in the room." Footnote to the last as above.
There's more on Molly and her adult children later, long after Hervey's death, but these touch on recent salon specific topics and thus I'll provide the quotes at
No, wait, go back. She had an intense flirtation with G2 and *then* decided he should be kicked off the throne? Forget Georgian career courtier, what did G2 *do* to her? I have so many questions!
And I have made a typo - it was G1 she briefly flirted with, which leaves longer interlude until she goes full Jacobite. (Lucy Worsley goes a bit to and thro in her book, too, because she narrates by personality and so has sometimes to go back when she switches povs.)
Here's the aborted non-affair: Molly had long been a practised flirt, collecting admirers as others collected snuff boxes. Even Voltaire, when he visited England, was soon writing to her about the 'passion' she had kindled withihn him (Footnote.) Despite the elederly king's supposed perference for fat women, he too was smitten by the ethereal Molly's "Soft and sprightly" grey eyes, which she used to open ' a little wider than ordinary'. (Footnote) And he was also pactivated by the spiky, sparky personality that comes through in Molly's derisive catalgoue of her own considerable charms ('I had forgot my eyebrows. Observe that they are not handsome, but well enouogh.') (Footnote)
In 1725, the year before Peter the Wild Boy came to court, rumours swirled around that MOlly had finalyl solved her financial problems. The gossips had it thata she'd deliberately gone ' to the Drawing-Room every night, and publically attracted his Majesty in a most vehement manner' which was 'the diversion of the town'. (Footnote) It was said that Melusine had paid Molly 4,000 pounds to break off her increasingly flagrant relationship with the king.
Yet the rumours were just rumours, and Molly was equally criticised for not having a royal affair. 'Lady Hervey, by aiming too high, has fallen very low,' commented Lady Mary Wortley Montagu. She 'is reduced to trying to persuade folks she has an intrigue, and gets nobody to believe her.' (Footnote)
Lord Chesterfield wrote one of those typical frat boy doggerels on the occasion:
So powerful her charms, and so moving
They would warm an old Monk in his cell,
Should the Pople himself ever go roaming,
He would follow dear Molly Lepell.
Or were I the King of Great Britain
To chuse a Minister well,
And support the Throne that I sit on,
I'd have under me Molly Lepell.
Molly starts to spend more and more time in France in the later 1730s and picks up French mannerisms, and that's when she starts displaying Jacobite sympathies.
Since her estrangement from the Hanoverian couert, MOlly had been a fairly open Jacobite. Her friends noticed that she always wore white roses on 10 June to commemorate the birthday of the Pretender and described 'how angry she used to grow if anybody, to tease her, brought up the story of the warming-pan.' (Footnote) During her spells of living in France, Molly had even flirted with Roman Catholicism. Well wishers worried that 'she has changed her princples in politics, and her religious ones I have heard were in danger.' Footnote) But her sense of self and her sense of humour were safe.
Now Worsley doesn't mention whether Molly during those times in France actually ever met any Stuarts, but I would bet not, because that kind of fannishness always works better at a distance, as George Keith can testify.
???? Wow.
No kidding. His sexual orientation and personality not withstanding, I dare say Fritz was the best eligible Protestant prince Europe had to offer at the time.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-12 03:41 pm (UTC)SRO is the Suffolk Record Office. Looks like the "Character" was written by Molly herself, in 1744. Can I order it?
Ugh.
Welcome to the interim website for the Suffolk Record Office. This site is a temporary replacement for our part of the "Suffolk Heritage Direct" site, while we work on an exciting, new, interactive site, just for the Suffolk Record Office. When the new website goes live, you'll be able to purchase and download copies of digitised documents and images, explore previously uncatalogued material, book places on talks and courses, as well as keep up to date with all the latest news from the archives! In the meantime, here you'll find our fully searchable and interactive catalogue of selected records, to help you discover what records we hold. Please check back regularly for details of when the new website goes live.
Come on! Fine, I guess I'll be "checking back regularly."
And I have made a typo - it was G1 she briefly flirted with, which leaves longer interlude until she goes full Jacobite.
Okay, that does make a difference, yes.
Molly starts to spend more and more time in France in the later 1730s and picks up French mannerisms, and that's when she starts displaying Jacobite sympathies...Now Worsley doesn't mention whether Molly during those times in France actually ever met any Stuarts, but I would bet not, because that kind of fannishness always works better at a distance, as George Keith can testify.
So on the one hand, that's true; on the other hand; the exception to that was that BPC was known for being charismatic in person, especially when he was young and attractive and before he was an abusive alcoholic, so if you only met him on a social occasion, I could *easily* see developing Jacobite sympathies. On the third hand, I don't remember any Stuarts in France in the late 1730s. But on the fourth hand, it's been so many years since I read up on the Jacobites that I could be misremembering.
His sexual orientation and personality not withstanding, I dare say Fritz was the best eligible Protestant prince Europe had to offer at the time.
And his sexual orientation wasn't known at the time, probably even to himself--this seems to have been his "questioning" period, as we've said in salon.
Despite the elederly king's supposed perference for fat women
Okay, so, granted I don't have a comprehensive list of everyone G1 showed an interest in, but I suspect this might be the Brits getting mistresses and sisters confused again:
The Duchess of Kendal was a very thin woman, being known in Germany as "the Scarecrow" and in England as "the Maypole". The Jacobites called her "the Goose".
It was the Countess of Platen, the half-sister and supposed mistress, who was called "the Elephant" because of how fat she was.
So it doesn't surprise me, given how thin Melusine was, that he would go for someone else thin. And I have to wonder if there are other examples of G1 preferring fat women, or if it really just was his sister.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-12 04:17 pm (UTC)SRO is the Suffolk Record Office. Looks like the "Character" was written by Molly herself, in 1744.
So just after her husband died. I salute the Royal Detective. These "characters" were a very 18th century thing even outside of envoy reports - remember Poniatowski writing one of himself for Catherine - but if it's in an unpublished document, it explains a bit better why neither Horowski nor Halsband have used it. (At least I don't recall Halsband's biography of Hervey mentioning or quoting from it. His book is where I have the idea of her as a long suffering devoted wife a la EC, only with kids, from, and he presents the last will as basically a lightning bolt out of the blue explainable only by Hervey feeling extremely miserable in the last year of his life and lashing out. Given that, let's not forget, Hervey's own mother, Lady Bristol, hated him as much as Caroline hated Fritz of Wales, I dare say that Lord Hervey did know that parents aren't always the best people to raise their children, and if Molly did not have a comfortable relationship with hers, that clause now looks less malicious and more thoughtful.
BTW, what amuses me about the Voltaire mention among people whom Molly flirted with is that Judith Zissner takes his letters to Hervey as proof of his hidden bisexuality and inner gayness. I dare say that him writing both both Lord and Lady Hervey in a "I adore you" type of vein after enjoying their hospitality during his exile years is basically par the course for the 18th century.
So on the one hand, that's true; on the other hand; the exception to that was that BPC was known for being charismatic in person, especially when he was young and attractive and before he was an abusive alcoholic, so if you only met him on a social occasion, I could *easily* see developing Jacobite sympathies.
Granted. And didn't he hang around in France before and after the 45? Maybe Molly did have a personal encounter after all in the early 40s? (Otoh, Hervey is the one who went to Italy on his grand tour, and he was in Rome, but I don't recall whether he met, or admitted to meeting, any Stuarts on the occasion.) So meeting him could have solidified a trend that already started.
Also: being a courtier of the Hannover cousins with a front row seat to all the family drama could make one a Jacobite by default, wouldn't you say? Regardless of whether or not one's husband had a fling turning toxic breakup with the Crown Prince
Okay, so, granted I don't have a comprehensive list of everyone G1 showed an interest in, but I suspect this might be the Brits getting mistresses and sisters confused again
I thought so, too. It's another British cliché of course - fat Germans - and evidently the fact that both G1 and G2 were on the plumb side and Caroline went from celebrated beauty to heavy (with a much commented on mighty bosom) an the Countess of Platen probably enforced it as far as the British aristocray was concerned.
Not fat: G1's mother, because we do have a portrait of Sophie in her old age where she looks pretty sprightly.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-12 04:30 pm (UTC)A bit, but I'm still surprised by Halsband. He's the one who published the 3 volumes of Lady Mary's letters, and I seem to recall him using unpublished archival sources in the Hervey bio.
...Yep, "Hervey Manuscripts, West Suffolk Record Office, Bury St. Edmunds" is in his "frequently cited collections" section. So I still think he should have seen it.
if Molly did not have a comfortable relationship with hers, that clause now looks less malicious and more thoughtful.
Yeah, thoughtful to all parties involved, her and the children!
BTW, what amuses me about the Voltaire mention among people whom Molly flirted with is that Judith Zissner takes his letters to Hervey as proof of his hidden bisexuality and inner gayness. I dare say that him writing both both Lord and Lady Hervey in a "I adore you" type of vein after enjoying their hospitality during his exile years is basically par the course for the 18th century.
Hahaha. I agree, of course, but "I have been given in marriage to the king of Prussia" still takes the cake in my book.
Granted. And didn't he hang around in France before and after the 45?
He did, definitely, but my memory is that he didn't show up until 1744 or thereabouts. I could be wrong, though!
Yeah, Wikipedia is saying early 1744. The timing had a lot to do with Britain's entry into the War of the Austrian Succession. That's not to say the two couldn't have met, as I don't have a thorough knowledge of either of their travel itineraries.
Also: being a courtier of the Hannover cousins with a front row seat to all the family drama could make one a Jacobite by default, wouldn't you say?
I would indeed say so!
evidently the fact that both G1 and G2 were on the plumb side and Caroline went from celebrated beauty to heavy (with a much commented on mighty bosom) an the Countess of Platen probably enforced it as far as the British aristocray was concerned.
Yep, I was thinking along similar lines: that if the Countess of Platen, G1, and G2 were all at least somewhat overweight, it might have run in the family. There may have been something similar going on with the later 18C Bourbons; at least, I've seen some historian (I forget who now) speculate that there was a genetic factor.
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Date: 2023-03-13 09:50 am (UTC)A week later he decided to draw up his will. Not strong enough to write, he dictated it, and then read it over twice to correct the spelling. Most of its provisions were conventional enough : his eldest son to be sole heir and executor, annuities to all his children, dowries of £ 5,000 for his eldest unmarried daughter, Mary, and £ 4,000 each to the two other girls, annuities to his housekeeper and to his valet. But the bequest to his wife was astonishing: she could have only what he was obliged to leave her by the terms of their marriage contract, and nothing more ; and while she could dispose of some things at her death, she must give security for all the money, silver, and jewels, and bequeath them to one of her children born during wedlock.
The same day that he dictated and corrected his will he wrote a brief letter (evidently in his own hand) addressed to Mrs. Strangways Horner. 'Dear Madam,' it runs, 'If you have a mind to shew any Regard to my Memory fullfill this my last Request & take my Daughter Miss Mary Hervey to live with You. She is very well disposed & will continue so living with one of your excellent Principles & real honest worth. I love and honour You. Adieu.' He gave the letter to his daughter with instructions that she deliver it to Mrs. Horner after his death. That event was not far off. By mid-July he was dangerously ill, and on 5 August he died. His father showed his love for him even at the burial a week later in the Ickworth church, for instead of a woollen shroud to clothe the corpse, as the law required, Lord Bristol chose another cloth (probably linen ) and paid a fine of £ s. The only other member of the Hervey family who enjoyed this posthumous luxury was Lord Bristol bimself.(...)
His will was the chief topic of conversation in London, particularly its provisions for Lady Hervey. No one knew why he had treated her in such a way; and it was said that he had refused to see her for many weeks before he died. Because of her modest jointure - only £ 300 a year — she would have to live with Lord Bristol, no great hardship since they were devoted to each other. Then, after the will had been read, early in September Mrs. Horner was startled by a visit from Mary Hervey with a letter from her late father. When Mrs. Horner overcame her surprise she sent a copy of the letter to Lady Hervey, assuring her that she was an 'utter Stranger to the Purport' before she was informed of it by Miss Hervey, and that for many reasons she could not comply with its request. Lady Hervey displayed impeccable tact in thanking Mrs. Horner for her considerate letter : 'I am not surpriz'd at any proof of Esteem given you by My Dear late Lord, knowing the great Friendship he had for you, Madam ; and I am as little so at the very right Manner in which you have acted on this Occasion.'
Also, while Worsley presents Molly as an accomplished flirt, Halsband emphasizes her absolute faithfulness to Hervey, which isn't mutually exclusive, of course, but makes for a different emphasis in characterisation. Biography Write-up:
Charles Hanbury Williams said that she was incapable of love; her 'total, real indifference to mankind has hindered her ever having a lover'. But, says Halsband: fthis is too worldly, too Chesterfieldian, an explanation for her not taking a lover. Instead, it proves her consistency of character; since she had married Hervey for love she remained faithful to him.
I do wonder whether it's not that Halsband overlooked Molly's self characterisation but that he had his fixed images in mind and did some partisan selection. Remember, Halsband's biography offers two dysfunctional mother/son relationships, but he's unquestioning in presenting Lady Bristol's increasing dislike-to-loathing for her son Hervey as incomprohensible and utterly mysterious and her snobbish attitude towards her daughter-in-law unearned, while on the other hand Caroline's dislike-to-loathing of Fritz of Wales is entirely justified and earned, he's the worst, and hers and Hervey's patronising disdain for Augusta (they're convinced she wouldn't notice if "impotent" Fritz of Wales would substitute another man in bed, she's that dumb and naive) is also valid. And let's not forget - Halsband missed out on the Countess of Platen being the half sister, not the mistress of G1 and just copied traditional British historians in this regard. He laudably unearthed a lot of new material about Lord Hervey and Lady Mary, but he clearly has his likes and dislikes, and I wouldn't put it beyond him to edit the material he presents accordingly. Thus Molly is a model wife, and as a likeable woman would never dislike children (unless they're a Tiberius in the making like poor Fritz of Wales according to Caroline), he edits this out. I mean: when is the last time you encountered a woman described as sympathetic who dislikes children? At best, they declare they don't want to have any, but later change their mind, if they're fictional.
What rereading my Halsband write up also reminded me of was that Hervey's disliking-him mother Lady Bristol had 17 children, some of which were in fact still children when Hervey and Molly started to reproduce. Even taking into account that maids and nurses are doing most of the childraising for the aristocracy early on and then governors and governesses take over, it's not hard to speculate that some of those pregnancies might have been unwanted (not in the sense of marital rape, just in the sense of not wanting any more pregnancies!). Come to think of it, Molly's eight kids probably owe their existence to the lack of safe contraception methods as well (especially since Hervey started out as a second son and wasn't supposed to carry on the title, though due to his older brother dying his children eventually did), and that might have influenced the maternal feelings, or lack of same, of either women.
(BTW, her Wiki entry seems to have copied a 19th century dictionary entry on Molly wholesale and tells us: In spite of her husband's infidelity, she lived with him on very amicable terms, and was an admirable mother to a large family of troublesome children, who inherited those peculiar qualities which gave rise to the well-known saying, ascribed to Lady Mary Wortley Montagu among others, "that this world consisted of men, women, and Herveys". She appears to have been always a warm partisan of the Stuarts. Though she suffered greatly from severe attacks of the gout, she retained many of the attractions of her youth long after her husband's death.
In a letter to his son dated 22 October 1750, Chesterfield directed him to "trust, consult, and to apply" to Lady Hervey at Paris. He speaks in the most admiring terms of her good breeding, and says that she knows more than is necessary for any woman, "for she understands Latin perfectly well, though she wisely conceals it".)
no subject
Date: 2023-03-14 05:49 am (UTC)I mean... I adore my two kids, but if I had eight kids, even if I didn't have to see them very often, I might have used up my store of maternal ability by that time! Especially if the kids were like this:
"that this world consisted of men, women, and Herveys"
LOLOLOL.
But... let's say that A. had a kindergarten friend where it would not surprise me if he grew up to be kind of like Hervey, and he was (presumably still is) not an easy child. His mom tried to have him do as many activities away from home as possible, and we all kind of understood that! If all Molly's kids were like that...
and while she could dispose of some things at her death, she must give security for all the money, silver, and jewels, and bequeath them to one of her children born during wedlock.
Yeah, with this new information about Molly I can maybe see how he could write that without any malice.
no subject
Date: 2023-03-14 05:38 am (UTC)Heh. Hervey is... not... what I'd call the most reliable source!
when I read that G2 and Caroline's daughter Amalie/Emily - who remained unmarried - never had a prince interested who could have been a serious match
Wow! That's... something.
I also was intrigued by Molly and I am glad to see she's mentioned more in the other comments :D *goes to read*
no subject
Date: 2023-03-18 03:41 am (UTC)