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selenak: (Vulcan)
[personal profile] selenak
This, as undoubtedly many have remarked already, was a very TOS like episode but in an SNW way. I thought it was going to be one trope, but it was actually another, which I would have figured out had I known the title of the episode, which I did not.



So where I was thinking this was going was: Ex Starfleet member/crazy historian recreates Zivilisation Just Like Earth In Era X Because We Need To Save Money, which TOS did a couple of times. (Most cringe worthy in Patterns of Force, though some of the other eps using this trope were fun.)

Where this actually went: The Amnesia Episode! I don't think we've had one on Discovery, come to think of that, so SNW using the trope was the first in a good long while. (Maybe Voyager did it last?)

Now, what delighted me most was that my wish from last week for an Ortegas episode became partly true in that she was one of the characters this episode focused on, though not the only one. Erica rediscovering her inner pilot-ness and saving the day even with amnesia was fun to watch, and the actress also sold her initial terror at suddenly being without memories and the way she rallied herself really well. Oh, and her early scene when she thinks she can finally go on an away mission and then that's nixed the last moment is adorable. All this said, this is still not the Ortegas episode I want to have, as a true character episode reveals stuff we didn't know before, so good first try, writing team, but more, please.

The other focused on character was Pike, with M'Benga a third but not to the same extent. (Though with M'Benga they're clearly continuing the s2 opening episode reveal that he had a soldierly past in the Klingon War which has left some long term effects in that he really does not want to fight despite being able to. Since this is not a nihilistic show, it affirms M'Benga's character by showing that even without his memories, his first instinct is to heal and help people, that's who he is. (And hopefully having that knowledge now will help him.)

With Pike, I am not completely sure whether I and the episode were on the same page re: what the amnesia showed. I mean, the good stuff is obvious - amnesiac Pike also won't stand by when faced with injustice and will do something about it - but when he confronted Zac Nguyen the Starfleet-Officer-Gone-Despot du jour, he was physically brutal in a way normal Pike just isn't, and instantly stopped when his memories came back. Yet everything after that made it look as if the lesson for Pike to learn from the entire episode was that he shouldn't put off people who want to get close to him because of his own issues, which had nothing to do with the villain confrontation.

(BTW, otoh I really liked Remembering!Pike's final way of dealing with Zac, because it struck a really great balance between acknowledging the later's original grievance - having been (accidentally) left behind - as valid and Pike's responsibility, while also firmly pointing out everything Zac did after that (to the Kalar) was Zac's responsibility.)

The world building doesn't bear much thinking about logically - if the Field Kalar forget all practically every day, then how did their civilisation ever develop to the point where clothes and armor and housing could be created (all of which happened before Zac interfered)? Yes, both M'Benga and Erica Ortegas proves that even in an amnesiac state you can reaccess skills you've been trained so well in that they've become instinctive, but they had both years of training before that.The Kalar outside the Palace supposedly can't have that, and yet they have developed at the very least pictograms and also can produce metal artwork that takes far longer than a day to create.

However, on a symbolic or metaphorical level, it certainly works - Zac maintains his power via the majority of the population being unable to connect to each other via memories ties to the destruction of cultural memory that often goes with colonisation and oppression -, and kudos to the costume department to not going for West European medieval clothing and style as inspiration but rather to the Mongols. That ger looked great. As did everyone's outfits.

Lastly: as far as amnesia episodes go, this was fun, but not stellar. Then again, I'm spoiled because Tabula Rasa from Buffy the Vampire Slayer's sixth season is my standard for a really good amnesia episode which used the concept in a more challenging way for its characters. But that's not meant as a real complaint - I liked the episode, I adored the Ortegas scenes, and not everything has to be outstanding.

P.S. Yes, I'm aware of the continuity nod re: Rygel 7 and the original TOS pilot.

Date: 2023-07-07 10:07 am (UTC)
lightofdaye: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lightofdaye
I think the idea was he realised how deeply he felt for Batel because he remembered it so well through the mind wipe, but it doesn't exactly flow from the rest of the episode.

Following on from the first episode of the season, Pike beating a guy did feel like another 'torture works!' moment which is weird but good point about the contrast between memoryless Pike doing it and Pike with memory not.

I agree with you about Ortegas. It's a start but not a proper day in the limelight episode. The actress gets to do a bit more than usual but the message at the end seems to be 'I'm only the pilot and that's okay', which umm.. isn't the best.

You've to wonder how bad all the other helmsman and shuttle pilots are if only Ortegas can be trusted to do any tricky piloting at all. And then Number One kicks her out of the chair to take Uhura to sickbay and she takes. (which is nice to show Ortegas' compassion but in-universe makes little sense for Number 1 to order and there being no relief pilot at all)

Date: 2023-07-07 01:42 pm (UTC)
lightofdaye: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lightofdaye
IIRC Officially Sulu is helm (like Ortegas) and Chekov was navigator. (Like Mitchell)

Date: 2023-07-07 03:43 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
LOL, and then some people gotta go and be all pithy. Chekhov is interesting, he starts out as heavy-duty science and is eventually navigator, and then he kind of bounces back and forth between science and navigator for the rest of the TOS movies. I dunno whether that indicates sciences training are a big deal for everyone in Starfleet or the various writers just tended to slot him in wherever he was needed in the plot.

Date: 2023-07-07 03:52 pm (UTC)
lightofdaye: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lightofdaye
I knew Sulu was sciences in one pilot but I didn't know about Chekov. I thought he was usually security in the original cast movies? The JJ Reboot made him some kind of science/engineering whiz to justify his presence.

Date: 2023-07-07 04:07 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
He's science officer after Spock dies, he's navigator in the whales movie, Then he's Commander in Undiscovered Country and does some science with Spock, but is also the helmsman when the Enterprise is about to be decomissioned, because Sulu is Captain (yay!) elsewhere.

The show seems to squish together navigator and helmsman, which is fine, it just makes it sort of difficult trying to sort out specialties and ranks. (I asked T if the US Navy does crosstraining and he said No, but added that that was decades ago, so.)

Date: 2023-07-07 03:38 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Sulu is at first an astrosciences physicist in the second TOS pilot, then helm officer (and chief helmsman, Lieutenant Officer, during the first movie). Chekhov is an ensign, and eventually navigator altho he also subs as science adviser for Spock (he is a lieutenant and chief of security in TMP).

T, who was in the US Navy, informs me that the captain tells the crew what to do, the helmsman actually steers the ship, and the navigator tells the helmsman where to go, lol. (I think navigators have pilot training but they are not necessarily pilots?) (T also says he thinks it is rather unlikely so many people in the original Trek crews would go on to become captains, admirals, &c &c but I am ignoring him on that one.)

Date: 2023-07-07 03:14 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
That is totally a TOS-type title! Love it.

Tabula Rasa has amazing acting -- I still remember Buffy declaring "I'm Joan the Vampire Slay -- " and then her face just crumpling as she remembers who she is. Plus all the comedy with its sly points (Giles and Spike as father and son!).

Date: 2023-07-07 04:02 pm (UTC)
labingi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] labingi
Once again, I agree with you a lot about this episode. I liked it but not as much as last week's.

It felt like a bit of a waste of the Rigel 7 setting to not lean harder into how the first trip traumatized Pike. I know it's been five years, but I might imagine more emotional triggering upon actually going back there. My partner thinks they did lean into that theme, via talking about not leaving people behind, letting friends die, etc., but while I see those words, I didn't get much emotion beyond "episode of the week." (And Batel doesn't fit with that theme, just as you noted she doesn't really fit with the fight scene.)

But really liked the Kalar dude who had built a whole, quite coherent philosophy around not remembering day to day. Well written and well acted.

Date: 2023-07-07 09:42 pm (UTC)
alethia: (ST Pike)
From: [personal profile] alethia
when he confronted Zac Nguyen the Starfleet-Officer-Gone-Despot du jour, he was physically brutal in a way normal Pike just isn't, and instantly stopped when his memories came back. Yet everything after that made it look as if the lesson for Pike to learn from the entire episode was that he shouldn't put off people who want to get close to him because of his own issues, which had nothing to do with the villain confrontation.

I found the Pike amnesia stuff really troubling and I wonder if the show meant it to be so or if they just didn't think it through. Because if you look at his confrontation with Zac, Pike wins, handily, and has Zac on the floor, saying "I yield." After which, when Zac doesn't give him the info he wants and Pike gets mad, he proceeds to beat the shit out of him. Zac laughing enrages him further, into more brutality, and the thing is, Pike isn't looking for information anymore. He's just inflicting pain on another human because he doesn't like what he's saying. Up to and including almost shooting him dead (which proves he wasn't actually looking for information here; this was just rage). What I took from that was...when Pike has lost all his memories, he's a monster. They excused it by having him say he'd do anything for his crew, but he wasn't doing that for his crew. It was to no purpose whatsoever. He turned into someone who inflicts tremendous violence on others when he gets mad. And I keep wondering...does the show know that that's what they just portrayed? Because I didn't think this was the type of show to hold 'your honorable fav is actually a monster' but now I'm unsure.

Regardless, it had nothing to do with Batel, which felt very unearned and tacked on, like they realized they needed to give him a character arc and just threw something in. Bizarre.

Date: 2023-07-09 12:09 am (UTC)
lirazel: Michael Burnham from S3 of Star Trek Discovery ([tv] time traveler)
From: [personal profile] lirazel
All this said, this is still not the Ortegas episode I want to have, as a true character episode reveals stuff we didn't know before, so good first try, writing team, but more, please.


Exactly! Loved seeing her in this, need more backstory!

ut when he confronted Zac Nguyen the Starfleet-Officer-Gone-Despot du jour, he was physically brutal in a way normal Pike just isn't, and instantly stopped when his memories came back. Yet everything after that made it look as if the lesson for Pike to learn from the entire episode was that he shouldn't put off people who want to get close to him because of his own issues, which had nothing to do with the villain confrontation.

Yeah, this wasn't bad writing, but it wasn't the level of good the episode deserved.

The world building doesn't bear much thinking about logically

True, and yet I didn't care very much because it felt very TOS to me in that sense? It would have driven me crazy in a novel, but in a one-off episode, I can handwave it.

That ger looked great. As did everyone's outfits.

Yup, super enjoyed the production design.

Lastly: as far as amnesia episodes go, this was fun, but not stellar. Then again, I'm spoiled because Tabula Rasa from Buffy the Vampire Slayer's sixth season is my standard for a really good amnesia episode which used the concept in a more challenging way for its characters. But that's not meant as a real complaint - I liked the episode, I adored the Ortegas scenes, and not everything has to be outstanding.

Exactly. (Tabula Rasa is the kind of episode you can only get after 5 and a half previous seasons of character development. It's just not possible on a show with this few episodes, unfortunately.)

Date: 2024-01-30 10:36 pm (UTC)
jesuswasbatman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jesuswasbatman
I was also thinking of the Farscape episode "Thank God It's Friday... Again", although the parallels weren't very strong.

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