So I'm first rewatching some season 7 BTVS episodes for the first time since quite a while (a good experience, too, I might add, more about that later), and then I start season 4 of Six Feet Under. And in the second episode of that fourth season, there is this scene of Claire and friend attending a punk poetry/performance session, and who should show up in a cameo but Tom Lenk. I was sitting in front of my tv screen and yelled "ANDREW!"
Now I have to know: are there any BTVS (or A:TS)/ Six Feet Under crossovers? Because they must be written, given that the Fishers live in Los Angeles. I even have the weird idea of letting Nate Senior's ghost hang out with Darla's ghost and banter about significant others and kids. *g*
Anyway: back to my season 7 rewatch. Which was Selfless till Showtime these last days. Season 7 isn't controversial the way 6 is (i.e. with people taking a love or hate position), it's just regarded as weak, and I agree there are signs of exhaustion, plus the Big Bad doesn't work the way it should, but there is still so much about it which does work for me and which I like that I'm currently feeling all warm and fuzzy about it. It doesn't have my passionate adoration the way, say, season 4 of AtS does, just the fondness for a dear friend who managed to put on socks with two different colours in the morning without noticing but still cheers me up by being himself. I feel similar about season 5 of AtS, so maybe it's a last season thing for me.
Selfless, Drew Goddard's debut, rocks both as the Anya background story it primarily is and as a continuity orgy, from Willow using the talisman D'Hoffryn gave her to the big scene between Buffy, Xander and Willow with its back references to Becoming. I love all the detail, like the blood on the gloves Anya and Halfrek are wearing during the Russia flashbacks (nobody ever mentions it, the camera doesn't draw particular attention to it, but it's clearly visible), the bloody scratches on Buffy's back - Buffy getting more and more scarred is an ongoing visible and emotional theme this season - or the Mustard Man and the Parking Ticket Lady (i.e. David Fury and Marti Noxon) singing in the background of the musical flashback. Incidentally, on the audio commentary, Drew Goddard says he originally wanted to do the Anya-defining-herself-through-Xander scene as a flashback to Hush but then thought it's hard to get the point across when there is utter silence, so picked the musical instead. When he told this to Joss, Joss said he really couldn't write another song, and Ultimate Drew was crushed, but the very next morning our Mr. Whedon showed up with a new tune for Anya to sing. Said audio commentary also contains some useful information about Joss as head producer (you know, that thing fannish lore has him not doing anymore the last seasons) as Drew mentions how he (Joss) sketched out the act breaks to him. The last scene between Xander and Anya is pure Whedon, as Drew said he didn't feel able to write it.
Selfless brings on both the funny and the tragic - the gag with the scratchy film and the subtitles for the early flashbacks never gets old, though I bet anyone listening to this in Sweden must feel like I do each time I hear someone on Alias pretending to speak German. And Anya going from blissful bride to stabbed through the heart in more than one sense, to her reaction when D'Hoffryn kills Hallie in front of her is heartbreaking. At the same time, this episode doesn't show us exclusively Anya The Wronged Woman but keeps a balance. When D'Hoffryn during his original recruiting speech says she'd punish only those who deserve it and Anya replies "they all deserve it", she signs on to the death of however hundreds and hundreds died during her millennium as a vengeance demon, and the Russia flashback showcases her complete indifference to the victims of her mayhem. In contrast, of course, to her reaction in the teaser when she's sitting among the slaughtered frat boys, which is also a rare case of the camera lingering on victims unknown to the viewer. In Beneath You when Buffy & Co. came to the Bronze after Anya had transformed Ronnie into a giant worm, Buffy carried her sword with her and put it on the table in front of Anya, which is a clear warning. In this episode, she actually uses it. At the time when it was originally broadcast, there was a big debate as to whether or not Buffy is unfair/too quick/too cold when deciding to kill Anya, and of course her "I am the law" was quoted without the context of the preceding or concluding words (the last thing Buffy says in that scene is, in reply to Xander's "there has to be another way", "then please find it"). I stand by my original opinion. "There is only me. I am the law," is said with much sadness, not in a self-righteous way. Anya has become a demon again and for the second time (Ronnie being the first) has used her powers to cause serious physical harm to humans.
(By contrast, Warren, had he survived, could have been put in jail for shooting Tara and - depending on whether or not Jonathan would have testified - killing Katrina. These weren't just human crimes but crimes performed without mystical aid in a manner that was provable to human justice, so Buffy arguing in Villains that killing Warren isn't something the Slayer can do is no contradiction.)
I think it's also significant that Buffy when fighting with Anya doesn't make any quips - which Anya remarks upon - but is silent, except for that "I'm sorry, Anya" before she stabs her. No, she doesn't want Anya dead. But she does think it is her task to kill her if nobody can find an alternative, which, as I mentioned above, Buffy is open for.
What makes the big argument so good is that you can see both Xander's and Buffy's pov, but imo Xander is losing it the moment he says "if you knew what I felt". And you can see how her "I killed Angel" retort hits him, even before Buffy says "Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass". Ever since starting his relationship with Anya in season 4, Xander never seems to have drawn parallels between it and Buffy's relationships first with Angel, then with Spike. He calls Anya "my demon" in his dream in "Restless" and sings "am I marrying a demon?" in OMWF, when he has no control over his subconscious, but consciously, he seems to put Anya into a completely different category, even though she speaks as gleefully of her vengeance demon days as soulless Spike ever does of his past. Until this point, when he can't avoid the parallels any longer.
Another thing: I had forgotten that Willow - who is probably the one of the core four I am least emotionally invested in - becomes some I do like very much in season 7. She's a sadder, wiser woman, and her help for Anya - whom she always had issues with - comes without fuss, with efficiency, and with compassion that comes from having been in that place herself.
Conversations with Dead People isn't just one of my fave season 7 episodes but one of my all time favourite BTVS episodes, and that rare thing, an instance of many cooks not spoiling anything. As mentioned in the audio commentary and in many an interview before, only Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard are in the credits but it was in fact co-written by Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon as well, with Joss writing the Buffy-Holden scenes and Marti the Willow-Cassie scenes. And of course Cassie is a last minute replacement for the First-as-Tara due to Amber Benson not being available. Which works amazingly well, because it fits with Willow's idea of herself as unworthy of seeing Tara.
Each of the four different plot threads bear rewatching - Jane E. is a comedy writer most often, but some of the Dawn scenes are among the creepiest scenes in the show - that short flash of Joyce's body on the couch, for example, or the "mother's milk is red today" on the wall. Marti wrote some of Aly Hannigan's most memorable Willow scenes in Wild at Heart or New Moon Rising, so it's not surprising that Willow in the library with her grief for Tara and her final realisation that she's getting played when Cassie/FE suggests suicide are so affecting. And I love the Jonathan and Andrew scenes with their mixture of humour, creepiness (FE/Warren's appearance in the basement still freaks me out) and tragedy, as Jonathan finally comes to terms with his life, isn't looking to be a superhero or a supervillain anymore, has gotten over High School and its wounds and grudges, just wants to help - and dies. As
andrastewhite once put it when we were discussing the Trio, it's infinitely sad - and yet fitting from a storytelling pov - that Jonathan, trying so hard for seven years to insert himself into the narrative, dies just when there would have been room for him, and when he's not trying anymore. His place in the BTVS narrative is taken over by the one who kills him: Andrew.
I remember that back in season 6, I was sure Andrew - the least mature, weakest member of the Trio - would die before the season ended. In season 7, after he killed Jonathan, I was also dead certain; at that point, I suspected he'd be the equivalent of Gollum. But he didn't die - and I think the reason is pretty much laid out in the final scene of Storyteller - and I'm grateful for it. Andrew is one of the endearing aspects of season 7 to me. The death of Jonathan makes him a murderer, after he was already co-responsible for covering up manslaughter (Katrina) and of course co-responsible for brainwashing her and bringing her into a situation which, if she hadn't snapped out of the cerebral dampener effect, would have ended in rape. (And then there were the various miseries inflicted on Buffy throughout season 6, which included the attempt to frame her for murder and driving her nearly insane via poison.) As opposed to Jonathan - who woke up after Katrina's death and realized what exactly he had signed on for - and Warren (who also woke up and realized, but as opposed to Jonathan concluded it wasn't bad at all), Andrew as of Conversations with Dead People is still living in his dream world. And he even tries to rewrite his murder into something that fits by casting himself as a tragic, noble figure; dare we say, someone like a vampire with a soul (of which there are two around as of that point in the Jossverse time line, and Andrew at the start of Sleeper wears an outfit clearly modelled on Spike's), a rogue Slayer, or a fallen Watcher? (That's the challenge of the Trio anyway - they present the audience which narratives that evoke a very different response when occupied by sexy, glamorous characters.) Which is exactly why killing off Andrew, in a Gollum fashion or otherwise, would have been completely the wrong thing to do. Andrew gets to wake up and to live.
My own personal favourite scenes in Conversations with dead People, though, are the ones between Buffy and Holden. (BTW, thank you, audio commentary, for clearing something up I've been wondering about, which is the order in which Jonathan D. Woodward played his three characters - first Holden on BTVS, then Tracy on Firefly, then Knox on AtS.) Holden Webster is about the most memorable one shot character since the Gentlemen showed up, and definitely the most interesting vampire since Spike and Dru came to town. (Mr. Trick never did anything for me.) The casting helps - Woodward is just so damm likeable - but you do see these were written by Joss, imo. There is never any question as to whether or not Buffy will in the end kill Holden, and the script doesn't downtalk to us by pretending to go for a "OMG, can she beat him?" thing, and that adds to their poignancy. And they're both emotional and witty and endlessly quotable, from "Buffy, I'm here to kill you, not to judge you" to "Oh my god - well, not my god, because I defy him and all his works - is there any word on that, by the way? Does he exist?" to Buffy explaining vampire terminology to Holden ("it's 'sire' - that word when you turn someone into a vampire? It's also noun!"). Holden is just so perfect as the stranger Buffy opens up to because he's both a vampire and someone who was in High School with her, thus combining her two worlds. What she tells him regarding her relationship with Spike and about her feelings in general could in the hands of a lesser writer come across as anvilly meta, but in these scenes, it just feels natural, both the "the last guy I was with, I treated him like a monster", "he loved me, but I didn't want to be loved" and the confession of feeling at the same time better and worse than anyone, inferior to her friends and superior at once.
The question of whether or not Buffy loved Spike was violently debated by 'shippers and anti-'shippers alike, and probably still is. To me, their relationship in season 7 is the necessary counterpoint to their relationship in season 6, and the most significant thing Buffy does isn't to say "I love you" at the end but two earlier statements. One in Sleeper: "I'll help you". And one in Never Leave Me - "I believe in you". Both of which she proves to be true. Buffy and Spike both damaged each other in season 6; and I think that helping Spike, Buffy also recovers that part of herself which was lost in her own personal post resurrection hell. If he's able to bring out the worst in her, he's also able to bring out the best. Because it really would be easier for her to stake him - what the First had him do certainly provides all the excuse of the world if she needs one -, or to just send him to Los Angeles in his unstable emotional state, asking Angel to take care of him. Spike as an ally in purely pragmatic terms doesn't become useful until months later. She helps him because he needs help. And her faith - especially for someone like Buffy with her intimacy and trust issues ever since Angel - is a more important thing to give him than her body in season 6 ever was.
What strikes me about Sleeper and Never Leave Me as well is, as indicated, the ongoing parallelling of Andrew and Spike. They both get used by the First at the same time, they both end up at Casa Summers at the same time. And incidentally, it's also true for Andrew that, once he has spilled his information on the First, there are no real pragmatic reasons to keep him around regarding his usefulness. And he probably could have been handed over to the police for the attempted bank robbery in Seeing Red, if not for the death of Jonathan (remember, the body has dissappeared). Chances are, though, that Andrew would either have gotten killed by the Bringers or if left on his own would have completed his development to sociopath. (Sleeper does contain the hint Andrew isn't irredeemable, of course, by letting him refuse to commit another murder since Jonathan's wasn't enough.) The acerbic, unsentimental hospitality he gets instead (going from prisoner to "guestage" to comrade in the fight) works an unspectacular but effective rehabilitation therapy instead. Is it just that Andrew gets this second chance instead of doing jailtime? Probably not, but then again: getting what you "deserve" is not something any of the three shows Joss Whedon created presents as something necessarily good. When characters declare "they all deserve it" like Anya does in her Selfless flashback, or that someone doesn't deserve mercy, as a distraught Buffy does in I've only got eyes for you when she projecting herself on James the ghost, they're usually either on their road to villainy or just plain wrong.
Now I have to know: are there any BTVS (or A:TS)/ Six Feet Under crossovers? Because they must be written, given that the Fishers live in Los Angeles. I even have the weird idea of letting Nate Senior's ghost hang out with Darla's ghost and banter about significant others and kids. *g*
Anyway: back to my season 7 rewatch. Which was Selfless till Showtime these last days. Season 7 isn't controversial the way 6 is (i.e. with people taking a love or hate position), it's just regarded as weak, and I agree there are signs of exhaustion, plus the Big Bad doesn't work the way it should, but there is still so much about it which does work for me and which I like that I'm currently feeling all warm and fuzzy about it. It doesn't have my passionate adoration the way, say, season 4 of AtS does, just the fondness for a dear friend who managed to put on socks with two different colours in the morning without noticing but still cheers me up by being himself. I feel similar about season 5 of AtS, so maybe it's a last season thing for me.
Selfless, Drew Goddard's debut, rocks both as the Anya background story it primarily is and as a continuity orgy, from Willow using the talisman D'Hoffryn gave her to the big scene between Buffy, Xander and Willow with its back references to Becoming. I love all the detail, like the blood on the gloves Anya and Halfrek are wearing during the Russia flashbacks (nobody ever mentions it, the camera doesn't draw particular attention to it, but it's clearly visible), the bloody scratches on Buffy's back - Buffy getting more and more scarred is an ongoing visible and emotional theme this season - or the Mustard Man and the Parking Ticket Lady (i.e. David Fury and Marti Noxon) singing in the background of the musical flashback. Incidentally, on the audio commentary, Drew Goddard says he originally wanted to do the Anya-defining-herself-through-Xander scene as a flashback to Hush but then thought it's hard to get the point across when there is utter silence, so picked the musical instead. When he told this to Joss, Joss said he really couldn't write another song, and Ultimate Drew was crushed, but the very next morning our Mr. Whedon showed up with a new tune for Anya to sing. Said audio commentary also contains some useful information about Joss as head producer (you know, that thing fannish lore has him not doing anymore the last seasons) as Drew mentions how he (Joss) sketched out the act breaks to him. The last scene between Xander and Anya is pure Whedon, as Drew said he didn't feel able to write it.
Selfless brings on both the funny and the tragic - the gag with the scratchy film and the subtitles for the early flashbacks never gets old, though I bet anyone listening to this in Sweden must feel like I do each time I hear someone on Alias pretending to speak German. And Anya going from blissful bride to stabbed through the heart in more than one sense, to her reaction when D'Hoffryn kills Hallie in front of her is heartbreaking. At the same time, this episode doesn't show us exclusively Anya The Wronged Woman but keeps a balance. When D'Hoffryn during his original recruiting speech says she'd punish only those who deserve it and Anya replies "they all deserve it", she signs on to the death of however hundreds and hundreds died during her millennium as a vengeance demon, and the Russia flashback showcases her complete indifference to the victims of her mayhem. In contrast, of course, to her reaction in the teaser when she's sitting among the slaughtered frat boys, which is also a rare case of the camera lingering on victims unknown to the viewer. In Beneath You when Buffy & Co. came to the Bronze after Anya had transformed Ronnie into a giant worm, Buffy carried her sword with her and put it on the table in front of Anya, which is a clear warning. In this episode, she actually uses it. At the time when it was originally broadcast, there was a big debate as to whether or not Buffy is unfair/too quick/too cold when deciding to kill Anya, and of course her "I am the law" was quoted without the context of the preceding or concluding words (the last thing Buffy says in that scene is, in reply to Xander's "there has to be another way", "then please find it"). I stand by my original opinion. "There is only me. I am the law," is said with much sadness, not in a self-righteous way. Anya has become a demon again and for the second time (Ronnie being the first) has used her powers to cause serious physical harm to humans.
(By contrast, Warren, had he survived, could have been put in jail for shooting Tara and - depending on whether or not Jonathan would have testified - killing Katrina. These weren't just human crimes but crimes performed without mystical aid in a manner that was provable to human justice, so Buffy arguing in Villains that killing Warren isn't something the Slayer can do is no contradiction.)
I think it's also significant that Buffy when fighting with Anya doesn't make any quips - which Anya remarks upon - but is silent, except for that "I'm sorry, Anya" before she stabs her. No, she doesn't want Anya dead. But she does think it is her task to kill her if nobody can find an alternative, which, as I mentioned above, Buffy is open for.
What makes the big argument so good is that you can see both Xander's and Buffy's pov, but imo Xander is losing it the moment he says "if you knew what I felt". And you can see how her "I killed Angel" retort hits him, even before Buffy says "Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass". Ever since starting his relationship with Anya in season 4, Xander never seems to have drawn parallels between it and Buffy's relationships first with Angel, then with Spike. He calls Anya "my demon" in his dream in "Restless" and sings "am I marrying a demon?" in OMWF, when he has no control over his subconscious, but consciously, he seems to put Anya into a completely different category, even though she speaks as gleefully of her vengeance demon days as soulless Spike ever does of his past. Until this point, when he can't avoid the parallels any longer.
Another thing: I had forgotten that Willow - who is probably the one of the core four I am least emotionally invested in - becomes some I do like very much in season 7. She's a sadder, wiser woman, and her help for Anya - whom she always had issues with - comes without fuss, with efficiency, and with compassion that comes from having been in that place herself.
Conversations with Dead People isn't just one of my fave season 7 episodes but one of my all time favourite BTVS episodes, and that rare thing, an instance of many cooks not spoiling anything. As mentioned in the audio commentary and in many an interview before, only Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard are in the credits but it was in fact co-written by Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon as well, with Joss writing the Buffy-Holden scenes and Marti the Willow-Cassie scenes. And of course Cassie is a last minute replacement for the First-as-Tara due to Amber Benson not being available. Which works amazingly well, because it fits with Willow's idea of herself as unworthy of seeing Tara.
Each of the four different plot threads bear rewatching - Jane E. is a comedy writer most often, but some of the Dawn scenes are among the creepiest scenes in the show - that short flash of Joyce's body on the couch, for example, or the "mother's milk is red today" on the wall. Marti wrote some of Aly Hannigan's most memorable Willow scenes in Wild at Heart or New Moon Rising, so it's not surprising that Willow in the library with her grief for Tara and her final realisation that she's getting played when Cassie/FE suggests suicide are so affecting. And I love the Jonathan and Andrew scenes with their mixture of humour, creepiness (FE/Warren's appearance in the basement still freaks me out) and tragedy, as Jonathan finally comes to terms with his life, isn't looking to be a superhero or a supervillain anymore, has gotten over High School and its wounds and grudges, just wants to help - and dies. As
I remember that back in season 6, I was sure Andrew - the least mature, weakest member of the Trio - would die before the season ended. In season 7, after he killed Jonathan, I was also dead certain; at that point, I suspected he'd be the equivalent of Gollum. But he didn't die - and I think the reason is pretty much laid out in the final scene of Storyteller - and I'm grateful for it. Andrew is one of the endearing aspects of season 7 to me. The death of Jonathan makes him a murderer, after he was already co-responsible for covering up manslaughter (Katrina) and of course co-responsible for brainwashing her and bringing her into a situation which, if she hadn't snapped out of the cerebral dampener effect, would have ended in rape. (And then there were the various miseries inflicted on Buffy throughout season 6, which included the attempt to frame her for murder and driving her nearly insane via poison.) As opposed to Jonathan - who woke up after Katrina's death and realized what exactly he had signed on for - and Warren (who also woke up and realized, but as opposed to Jonathan concluded it wasn't bad at all), Andrew as of Conversations with Dead People is still living in his dream world. And he even tries to rewrite his murder into something that fits by casting himself as a tragic, noble figure; dare we say, someone like a vampire with a soul (of which there are two around as of that point in the Jossverse time line, and Andrew at the start of Sleeper wears an outfit clearly modelled on Spike's), a rogue Slayer, or a fallen Watcher? (That's the challenge of the Trio anyway - they present the audience which narratives that evoke a very different response when occupied by sexy, glamorous characters.) Which is exactly why killing off Andrew, in a Gollum fashion or otherwise, would have been completely the wrong thing to do. Andrew gets to wake up and to live.
My own personal favourite scenes in Conversations with dead People, though, are the ones between Buffy and Holden. (BTW, thank you, audio commentary, for clearing something up I've been wondering about, which is the order in which Jonathan D. Woodward played his three characters - first Holden on BTVS, then Tracy on Firefly, then Knox on AtS.) Holden Webster is about the most memorable one shot character since the Gentlemen showed up, and definitely the most interesting vampire since Spike and Dru came to town. (Mr. Trick never did anything for me.) The casting helps - Woodward is just so damm likeable - but you do see these were written by Joss, imo. There is never any question as to whether or not Buffy will in the end kill Holden, and the script doesn't downtalk to us by pretending to go for a "OMG, can she beat him?" thing, and that adds to their poignancy. And they're both emotional and witty and endlessly quotable, from "Buffy, I'm here to kill you, not to judge you" to "Oh my god - well, not my god, because I defy him and all his works - is there any word on that, by the way? Does he exist?" to Buffy explaining vampire terminology to Holden ("it's 'sire' - that word when you turn someone into a vampire? It's also noun!"). Holden is just so perfect as the stranger Buffy opens up to because he's both a vampire and someone who was in High School with her, thus combining her two worlds. What she tells him regarding her relationship with Spike and about her feelings in general could in the hands of a lesser writer come across as anvilly meta, but in these scenes, it just feels natural, both the "the last guy I was with, I treated him like a monster", "he loved me, but I didn't want to be loved" and the confession of feeling at the same time better and worse than anyone, inferior to her friends and superior at once.
The question of whether or not Buffy loved Spike was violently debated by 'shippers and anti-'shippers alike, and probably still is. To me, their relationship in season 7 is the necessary counterpoint to their relationship in season 6, and the most significant thing Buffy does isn't to say "I love you" at the end but two earlier statements. One in Sleeper: "I'll help you". And one in Never Leave Me - "I believe in you". Both of which she proves to be true. Buffy and Spike both damaged each other in season 6; and I think that helping Spike, Buffy also recovers that part of herself which was lost in her own personal post resurrection hell. If he's able to bring out the worst in her, he's also able to bring out the best. Because it really would be easier for her to stake him - what the First had him do certainly provides all the excuse of the world if she needs one -, or to just send him to Los Angeles in his unstable emotional state, asking Angel to take care of him. Spike as an ally in purely pragmatic terms doesn't become useful until months later. She helps him because he needs help. And her faith - especially for someone like Buffy with her intimacy and trust issues ever since Angel - is a more important thing to give him than her body in season 6 ever was.
What strikes me about Sleeper and Never Leave Me as well is, as indicated, the ongoing parallelling of Andrew and Spike. They both get used by the First at the same time, they both end up at Casa Summers at the same time. And incidentally, it's also true for Andrew that, once he has spilled his information on the First, there are no real pragmatic reasons to keep him around regarding his usefulness. And he probably could have been handed over to the police for the attempted bank robbery in Seeing Red, if not for the death of Jonathan (remember, the body has dissappeared). Chances are, though, that Andrew would either have gotten killed by the Bringers or if left on his own would have completed his development to sociopath. (Sleeper does contain the hint Andrew isn't irredeemable, of course, by letting him refuse to commit another murder since Jonathan's wasn't enough.) The acerbic, unsentimental hospitality he gets instead (going from prisoner to "guestage" to comrade in the fight) works an unspectacular but effective rehabilitation therapy instead. Is it just that Andrew gets this second chance instead of doing jailtime? Probably not, but then again: getting what you "deserve" is not something any of the three shows Joss Whedon created presents as something necessarily good. When characters declare "they all deserve it" like Anya does in her Selfless flashback, or that someone doesn't deserve mercy, as a distraught Buffy does in I've only got eyes for you when she projecting herself on James the ghost, they're usually either on their road to villainy or just plain wrong.
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Date: 2006-02-22 09:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 09:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 09:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 06:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 09:31 pm (UTC)Selfless is a fantastic episode and the characterisation of Willow I wish had lasted and developed all the way through the season. But, as I think I've said to you before, the reason why there was such a strong response to the "I am the law" line is because it's such a widely-recognised quotation in English-speaking fandom as the catchphrase of Judge Dredd (think Frank Miller's Batman from DKR if the tone of the story was less approving of him), which I cannot imagine that Goddard and Whedon were unaware of.
It's interesting that in the three roles Woodward plays the same, almost trade mark, ME figure of the superficially charming rogue who turns out to be a ruthlessly and genuinely dangerous bad guy. The repetition brings a new interest to all three. And the Dawn scenes in Conversations are among the very few genuinely frightening moments in ME shows.
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Date: 2006-02-23 06:55 am (UTC)Frightening moments: it occured to me after posting that Jane E. also wrote After Life, and Anya cutting her face there when possessed freaked me out as well.
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Date: 2006-02-23 10:30 am (UTC)Most frightening scene ever in a Whedon show - the scene where the Gentlemen kill the male student in Hush.
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Date: 2006-02-23 01:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 09:39 pm (UTC)I know you're looking at me -- none that I know of; is this your first time through S4? I can't remember what comes when so I don't want to spoil anything.
Anyway, my favorite crossover conceit is the notion that Faith and Wesley would both have read Charlotte Light and Dark with completely different perspectives; they could meet up post-"Chosen" and argue about it (there may possibly have been a 3way with Brenda involved in this idea, though I also might have been drinking.)
I'm running out the door but I'll read your s7 lovepost when I have a minute. I'm odd about S7 b/c it's when I happened on the show, so I was bewildered to hear how much it was supposed to suck -- but I never bought the DVDs and I haven't rewatched it that much (and when I did, it was mostly the Faith-heavy eps). I've only seen CWDP the once, believe it or not.
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Date: 2006-02-23 06:58 am (UTC)Faith and Wesley debating: can see that. Can see the threesome with Brenda, too, of course...
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Date: 2006-02-23 10:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 01:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 09:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 07:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 10:39 pm (UTC)That is odd, isn't it? Xander never gets over Spike, or even Angel, being a vampire, but he doesn't seem to take Anya's demon past all that seriously prior to S7.
the most significant thing Buffy does isn't to say "I love you" at the end but two earlier statements.
I have no idea which episode it's in (maybe the same as "I need you") but by far the most significant thing she ever says to him, in my book, is "I'm not ready for you to not be here." I think your assessment of S7 S/B is right on; reading this, it occurs to me that the reason I've never understood "Did X love Y, did X ever say so?" etc debates -- IRL or in fiction -- is that "love" is so hard to define that in an absolute sense it doesn't mean anything, the way that "I need you," "I trust you," "I believe in you," "You gratify my ego and I'll get pathologically jealous if you look at anybody else and when I'm actually with you I'll treat you like shit" -- now those give you something to work with!
One of my issues with "Spike loved Buffy ever since S5, Buffy admits she hated him and used him" -- is that I'm not sure that "loving" for soulless Spike is that far from "hating and using" for Buffy. I'm not sure that their feelings are as far apart as the words that they use for them.
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:11 am (UTC)Except for those subconscious moments I mentioned, yes. Which makes his "how can you have sex with a soulless serial killer" to Anya, then Buffy in Entropy and Seeing Red of course breathtakingly double standard. I think that he basically is able to do this because he never met Anya-the-vengeance-demon; he only knew her as human. Aside from Doppelgangerland, she never endangered someone he loved. Whereas he of course saw Angelus' and Spike's handiwork first hand.
One of my issues with "Spike loved Buffy ever since S5, Buffy admits she hated him and used him" -- is that I'm not sure that "loving" for soulless Spike is that far from "hating and using" for Buffy. I'm not sure that their feelings are as far apart as the words that they use for them.
That's why it drives me crazy if people argue that Buffy and Spike would have been just fine and dandy in season 6 if Buffy had declared her love for Spike. When she tells him "I'm using you" and he says "not complaining here", you have the problem in a nutshell. Because Spike really meant what he told Riley in Into the Woods, and Xander in After Life - he'd take any version of Buffy, no matter how damaged, and any thing Buffy gives him, over no Buffy at all. And that's just not good for either of them.
Their conversation in Never Leave Me is a good counterpoint to that, because now he does get it, since he gets self loathing now. Which was such a crucial element in Buffy's season 6 relationship with him, and something he didn't understand without the soul.
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Date: 2006-02-23 10:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 07:10 pm (UTC)Seriously. He's using her too; it just doesn't occur to him to feel guilty about it (or even to put it in those terms, because what kind of non-using relationship has he known?)
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Date: 2006-02-22 10:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 07:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 12:12 am (UTC)As for Andrew--rewatching S7 would be painful for me, but I remember the thing that bugged me the most about him was that his redemption seemed unearned. I never got the impression that he understood his crimes and was sorry for them, rather than simply being scared of Buffy and desirous of a glamorous storybook-hero role.
Andrew
Date: 2006-02-23 07:20 am (UTC)Mind you, that doesn't mean he's not still into playacting and rewriting. But I think it's significant that the last thing he does on the show is to use this for Anya - telling Xander about her death as a classic hero's death, protecting him (whereas actually Anya was cut down from behind) - not for himself.
Re: Andrew
Date: 2006-02-23 11:12 pm (UTC)This is not to say he doesn't have a conscience. He does, as the examples you point out show. But is his conscience ever the main motivating factor for his actions? I'll have to re-watch and find out, I suppose. (Ouch).
Also, we see Andrew on AtS, and I find that some of his actions are storybook-hero-ish---and wrongly so---on that show. I believe he exaggerated when he spoke to Angel in Damage. I don't believe Buffy would ever just write Angel off if she thought he was doing wrong and I don't believe she knew a thing about the "you're not on our side" speech. I suspect that Andrew was taking Giles' instructions a step too far. I think Giles probably expressed mistrust of Angel and told Andrew to get Dana back, but Andrew dramatized the conflict in order to show off to Angel and Spike that he was Cool and in charge of a shiny new Slayer army.
This is all speculation, of course.
Re: Andrew
Date: 2006-02-26 02:39 am (UTC)Re: Andrew
Date: 2006-02-26 03:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 12:50 am (UTC)Heh. That's a very cute way to put it and pretty much how I feel about S7 too.
the ongoing parallelling of Andrew and Spike.
Another parallel that I see between those two is that for both one of their biggest sins was blindly doing what they were told, letting others tell them what is right and what is wrong. Andrew never questioned Warren and Spike for all his rebellion was love's bitch who was very easily led by both Buffy and Dru. That's why I dislike the scene in "Get It Done" where Spike puts on the Big Bad role again - not because he is enjoying the killing again, but because he did it only because Buffy told him to (as opposed to "Chosen" where he stays in the cave against Buffy's wishes because it's the right thing to do).
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:25 am (UTC)And of course, the doing something without needing to impress/gain favour with the beloved is crucial for both characters' growth later on.
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Date: 2006-02-23 09:32 am (UTC)She's a sadder, wiser woman, and her help for Anya - whom she always had issues with - comes without fuss, with efficiency, and with compassion that comes from having been in that place herself.
I think
Which is exactly why killing off Andrew, in a Gollum fashion or otherwise, would have been completely the wrong thing to do. Andrew gets to wake up and to live.
I just watched Bad Girls and what I saw there what I hadn't seen before is how attached to the Potentials Andrew is. He is their conduit for knowledge, ok slightly warped, but nevertheless he is the one that provides background information for them. Interesting choice.
If he's able to bring out the worst in her, he's also able to bring out the best.
I *really* like that idea.
And, er, finally I co-mod a community called
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Date: 2006-02-23 10:45 am (UTC)RE: Six Feet Under / A:TS crossover - I haven't seen any, but I've been kicking around the idea for one since I saw "You're Welcome". I wanted to have the Fishers bury Cordelia, because Angel doesn't want a Wolfram & Hart-affiliated funeral home doing it.
And, of course, the Fishers also host the laying out of the body before the service, and there are many non-human attendees, and it's all... weird. But POIGNANT.
Which is probably why I haven't written it, as I cannot do poignant.
OTOH, you can do poignant. You should do it!
RE: Andrew - there's a really good fic out there called 'Big Rock Candy Mountain' by, emr, I forget who (but I can look it up!) wherein we have a delightfully AU take on Andrew ending up with the Scoobies. I agree, Andrew isn't irredeemable, but I don't think that anyone in the Buffyverse is supposed to be irredeemable. Just, bit by bit, they keep making the wrong choices until they end up dead. Then, in hindsight, they weren't redeemed.
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Date: 2006-02-23 01:12 pm (UTC)I agree, Andrew isn't irredeemable, but I don't think that anyone in the Buffyverse is supposed to be irredeemable. Just, bit by bit, they keep making the wrong choices until they end up dead. Then, in hindsight, they weren't redeemed.
True. I wrote a "Five Things Which Never Happened To Warren", and in some of the five, he does end up on the light side (and in some, he is even worse than he was) because there were a couple of times where another choice would have salvaged him.
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Date: 2006-02-23 03:00 pm (UTC)YES!! That would totally rock!
However, timeline - season 4 of Six Feet Under would match with season 5 of AtS, right? So I'll wait some more till I've watched season 4 entirely, then I can get the mood right.
Ah, you're definitely going to have to write it, 'cause I've only seen up to the end of S1 in any sort of order. After that, it was episodes here and there.
True. I wrote a "Five Things Which Never Happened To Warren", and in some of the five, he does end up on the light side (and in some, he is even worse than he was) because there were a couple of times where another choice would have salvaged him.
Exactly. D'you suppose that it's a recent development, to have 'villains' who only end up as villains because of choices that turn out to be bad in retrospect? I remember a lot more cut and dried stuff on tv from my earlier days...
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:20 pm (UTC)My earlier tv days were (classic) Star Trek as a kid, but later on, B5 and DS9 both had a different attitude already, so I suppose it depends on what you define as "recent"...
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Date: 2006-02-24 12:44 pm (UTC)(also, The X-Files, wherein there was absolutely no explanation for the 'evilness' of certain characters.)
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Date: 2006-02-23 02:50 pm (UTC)I think ATS peaked in a way that BTVS did in five, and it was a shame that it was cancelled. I think putting Spike/Angel together (finally) was a stroke of genius and could lead to issues and back story for Angel that you could only dream about previously.
Season seven BTVS had a chance to be a great season, but it wasn't. (although I'm going to rewatch it again) It felt tired but it also felt like the Scoobies could have been used better after the controversy of six. I came out not liking the scoobies very much, and I seriously don't think that Joss intended that.
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Date: 2006-02-23 06:30 pm (UTC)Um, Darla? Season 2? Anyway, the reason why season 5 for me is nice but not great (my own ranking is 4,2,1 and 5 at the same spot, then 3) is that I'm an arc girl first and foremost. 5, like 1, has a lot of standalones, and compared with the very tightly written 4 this just shows. Also, the ensemble was used better in 4. Let me put it this way - 4 had Angel/Connor at the center, 5 had Angel/Spike. But 4 also had a great storyline for Wesley (and Lilah), it had Fred better written than she was at any point of the series (especially compared to 5, where all her edges were gone), the falling apart of the Fred/Gunn relationship was more convincing than Fred/Wesley in 5, and the overall Big Bad, Jasmine, was since she was basically Galadriel who had taken the Ring a far more interesting villain than the usual "I wanna destroy the world" fare.
Meanwhile, the only person other than Angel and Spike who had a consistent arc through the season in 5 was Gunn (and well-deserved it was, the poor guy had been waiting long enough). Wesley essentially didn't have any development until Fred died. (I remember a comment at the time that said the quintessential difference between 5 and 4 is that in 4, Wesley would have shot his father and it would have been his father, not a robot, plus this would have led to ongoing consequences in the next episode. Which sums it up.) Fred was robbed of all her darker aspects and was back to being Ultimate Nice Girl, which is far less interesting. Illyria was fascinating, true, but only there for the last third, and at any rate the addendum, not the main opponent. The Black Circle felt pretty much made up at the last moment. Lindsey felt written like he was supposed to be Lilah until Underneath. (Compare this to the way Faith was used and written in season 4 and weep.) Eve didn't work until her last appearances, either.
There is a lot of season 5 I like (which I've written about elsewhere, and Spike/Angel interaction is certainly one element, just as Harmony or the big company satire), but it just doesn't cut it for top position with me for all these reasons. Plus of course a prejudiced one: I like Spike, but I don't love him. I do love Connor. Which is another reason why the father-son tragedy of season 4 beats the bickering duo of season 5 in my book, but that of course is entirely personal and not shareable.
Season 7: I stated my feelings in the post, but let me add that I liked the Scoobies quite a lot. 7 is actually the only season where I do love Willow. (Early Willow, whom everbody loves, is too sweet and good to be true for me. Willow ca. 4-6 is more interesting, and I find much of her storyline fascinating, but I don't like her. Season 7 Willow, for the first time, I like.) Xander I like throughout the show, even at the times when he infuriates me, and Buffy is my favourite character. Back to the season: I find as much to critisize in it as I do in season 5 of Angel, but, as stated earlier, there is also much to like, and I am fond of both.
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:19 pm (UTC)re: Six Feet Under -- are you watching it all at once, or getting it week by week on TV?
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:22 pm (UTC)SFU: I have just aquired the season 4 DVDs and watch it all at once. Just posted on this.
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Date: 2006-02-23 07:58 pm (UTC)Will check out the SFU post when I get done with students..
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Date: 2006-02-23 09:47 pm (UTC)In the first half of season five ATS, they were trying to pull in new viewers with the "Not Arc" thing, but by the time we get to DESTINY (Episode eight?) I think it's cooking on high...(and yeah, we went back to the arc.) They were going to have to get into the Shanshu and Angel's soul/Angelus. Who better than Spike to get into these issues? (not to mention the Buffy thing) It was a fun and sad season full of great episodes.. (Similar to season five BTVS, IMO) I do think Five is the greatest ATS season (and six would have bene incredible) but then I don't think season two of BTVS is all that, and most do. Again, it's a matter of taste.
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Date: 2006-02-23 03:55 pm (UTC)Not that I've ever read but I agree that it would be quite easy to make them fit.
plus the Big Bad doesn't work the way it should,
No, I always feel I'm missing something with the First Evil. I suspect it was an idea that looked great on paper but didn't work so well on screen. I read the idea (and I can't remember whose idea it was) quite recently that the First Evil would have worked better if it hadn't been revealed quite so soon i.e. if we hadn't known whether it was First Evil Buffy or Real Buffy, but that might have led to extreme audience confusion!
Great review, as always.
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Date: 2006-02-25 09:22 pm (UTC)One thing I would deviate from yours on:
When characters declare "they all deserve it" like Anya does in her Selfless flashback, or that someone doesn't deserve mercy, as a distraught Buffy does in I've only got eyes for you when she projecting herself on James the ghost, they're usually either on their road to villainy or just plain wrong.
In AtS, S5, Damage, when Spike tells Angel the pain he's experiencing (from having had his forearms sliced by Dana) is "what I deserve".
Spike's not on the road to villainy nor is he just plain wrong. He is quite right: he does deserve it.
And: Spike lover here; I love the character but I never forget the beginnings, middle and ending (?) of his journey.
Once again, terrific insight; thank you for sharing.