BSG 2.18 Downloaded

[selenak]

Watch me dissolve in utter fannish adoration. This is definitely one of my favourite episodes of the show, not just of the second half of this eason, or the second season. Allow me to celebrate this with a Yeats quote.


Once out of Nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing

The poem in question, Sailing to Byzantium, always makes me think of the Cylons anyway.


Firstly, of course I was predisposed to like this episode because I dig opposing/other pov episodes in general. (Unless they're badly done. Babylon 5, for example, offered both - it had the really good The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father wherein we see the station and its crew from the perspective of Bester and his Psi Corps interns, which doesn't offer a very flattering picture without negating the Psi Corps' own ruthlessness, and the really clumsy let's-never-talk-about-it-again A View From The Gallery.) And of course I've been longing for an episode which explores the Cylons for a while.

Nonetheless, despite my expectations and hopes, they managed to surprise me in a good way with so many things. One of the ongoing differences about Cylons and Humans was that humans were able to question their actions and their ethics, whereas Cylons, with the exception of original Boomer (can't call her Galactica!Sharon anymore, as she's living on Caprica now, with the other Sharon being on Galactica) who thought she was human, showed no such self doubts, and never wondered whether the genocide of the human race was justified or not. Making Caprica Six, the original Six from the miniseries, the first Cylon to come to the conclusion that murdering most of the human race was wrong and a crime was genius. As was giving her a Hallucination Baltar. And btw, James Callis does a neat job in making this Gaius both similar and different to the one we know, and as importantly, even more similar to the Six in Baltar's head. Now I really want to know what happened when that nuclear blast hit Caprica so that both Baltar and Six ended up with fragments of each other in their heads. The fragmentary nature, btw, never was as clear as in this episode. Caprica Six with her doubts and her need to figure out a way to deal both with what she has done and what is in store for the Cylons is like a complete mosaic, the Six in Baltar's head one of the stones making up that mosaic. (Ditto for the differences between the two Baltars.)

Then there was Sharon. I honestly never thought we'd see the first model again after Cally shot her, and I was glad to be wrong. More than any other Cylon, this Sharon reminded me of the Replicants in Blade Runner, with her artificial memories and her desperation once the truth started to come through. Whether or not she downloaded after her death had been an open question; now we see she did, and one can imagine the full horror of it in that scene when she wakes up. But Sharon stops being a victim in this episode; bonding with Caprica Six, she uses what was perceived as her weakness - the fact that she believed herself to be human for most of her existence, as opposed to the other Sharon - as a strength. I don't know whether the two of them will manage to start the process of change within the Cylons, but it's a goal worth fighting for, and I felt absurdly like a cheerleader for both of them in that handclasp scene.

Meanwhile, Lucy Lawless does a neat job as D'Anna (or Three), the voice of Cylon orthodoxy. I'm so glad they went with her and not a Doral, Leoben or Simon model in this role, and not just because I'm a fan; this gives us three women at the center of this episode, and they're fascinating to watch.

As for the Galactica subplot: finding a solution that on the one hand avoids killing the baby but on the other ensures it doesn't become a Cylon tool is something I hoped Laura Roslin would do, and she did. This was Roslin at her ruthless and intelligent best (meaning she has recovered from being blindsided by Baltar last week). Doesn't mean I didn't feel for Helo and Sharon, and you know, Tyrol being with Helo when they dispense the ashes in space just broke my heart.

Real Baltar only had two scenes this episode: I'm reminded again of him being unable to save the child from being drowned by Adama in his vision/hallucination in Valley of Darkness. (But he can't find its body in that scene, remember?) Back then, I thought this had been a Six-induced vision, but now I wonder whether our Gaius didn't have the genuine article back there - a glance at the future. (Where he's unable to save the child, but has a hint, even though he can't decypher said hint, that Adama/ Human authority didn't really kill it.) And who sent it. In fact, whether the reason that both Baltar and Caprica Six have pieces of each other in their head isn't that there is a third party involved, looking for a way for Cylons and Humans to live with each other. But that's just speculation. What's clear (again - we've head examples before) is that Six-in-Baltar isn't all-knowing, though on occasion she knows more than Baltar does; in this case, she, like he does, believes the child to be dead, and her grief and fury are as real as Sharon's.

If I were Sharon-currently-on-Galactica, though? I'd pray for the speedy and painful death of Roslin and Adama right now, as it is obvious to her one of them must have given the order to kill the child.

ETA: Something that only hit me just now, again comparing Baltar's Valley of Darkness vision with how things played out - the former very deliberately begged for Moses associations. And of course Moses, like Oedipus or Paris when you take Greek mythology, is one of those children who were meant to die, then raised in anonymity (in Moses' case by the very people who tried to kill them), then returning to fulfill their destiny anyway. So, if the little girl is Moses, does that make Roslin Pharao, and Maya Pharao's daughter?

Comments

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Lawless's Three's strategy of uniting two threats to Cylon cohesion was extraordinarily stupid.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Okay, you sold me on it.

*off to download BSG 1x01*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you have to download the miniseries first.*g* No, seriously. The miniseries is the pilot, and introduces the characters; the first episode got them a Hugo, but it still builds on what come before.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Right, so how is it called so that I can Limewire it at once?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

No extra title. It's called Battlestar Galactica - The Miniseries at Amazon, I think.

[k-julia.livejournal.com]

As strange as that sounds, from my detached, undecided-either-way POV, this was a lot of fun to read.

I've thought the same about Roslin's decision here, though I couldn't put it as succintly where I tried to explain it to someone this morning. A lot of her choices in the last episode had just a touch of panic written all over them, so it was nice to see her return to form.

I hadn't seen how well this fits the vision in VoD, so that was cool to read.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

A lot of her choices in the last episode had just a touch of panic written all over them, so it was nice to see her return to form.

Yes. It was thought out and prepared, and a third option instead of taking one of the two bad alternatives in front of her (killing a child or fulfilling the unknown plan of the people who tried to extinguish hers by letting it stay on Galactica).

[kernezelda]

The download of personality puzzled me a bit; I'd had the impression from early on that if one Cylon died, then the memories were downloaded to all extant copies.

The episode with the humanoid-Cylon-manufacture ship indicated that there had to be available bodies in close locale. And "Scar" had one of the fighter ships replicating its memories, but there are many, many of the ships. When Sharon spoke of death as a learning experience, wouldn't that be something that all Cylon ships find useful?

What happens if two or more of a Cylon type die at once, and there is no blank template waiting? Is only one set of memories preserved? If only one template is used for the download, doesn't that make Cylons individuals who would value their own identity more as time goes on? It was my thought that conformity was desired among the group.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'd had the impression from early on that if one Cylon died, then the memories were downloaded to all extant copies.

That actually was never firmly said; it depends on how you interpret what Six tells Baltar in the miniseries, which was shown in the previouslies ("I can't die.... if I die, I just wake up in a new, identical body"). Whether or not this means ONE body or same memories, many bodies - shrug. Though now it seems we have an answer to this. (Still doesn't explain why one Sharon shares the memories of the other up to a point - i.e. Boomer currently on Galactica remembers other Boomer's love for and affair with Tyrol up to the miniseries events.)

What happens if two or more of a Cylon type die at once, and there is no blank template waiting? Is only one set of memories preserved?

I think that might be why there were so many Sharon models on that ship "our" Sharon blew up, and so many Six models on the Resurrection ship. To ensure it doesn't happen. Of course, by Murphy's law, that just means it will some day.

My current guess is that there has to be some kind of central computer system guiding the downloads and trying to find a body for each.

Identity versus unity: we don't know yet how long the human-looking Cylons are around. They can be literary a very young people, with none of them older than, say, a decade or so, and none of them actually dying in larger numbers before the war. (Why would they before their attack on the colonies? The centurions wouldn't kill them.) So these growing differences, caused by more and more models collecting differing memories, could be something they never had to deal with before, but now do.

[kernezelda]

So these growing differences, caused by more and more models collecting differing memories, could be something they never had to deal with before, but now do.

Perhaps this is why the #3 Lucy Lawless model wished to expose the #6 and #8 Sharon to each other, to reinforce and later demonstrate their taint at some future point, to render their 'hero' status useless?

I can never really sympathize with Six, since she killed that infant in the mini-series.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Presumably that was the idea, though as ide_cyan points out above, this was short sighted. Though again, newbies at this differences thing.

I can never really sympathize with Six, since she killed that infant in the mini-series.

You know, I don't know what it says about me that I became interested in her at that point. Because that actually was an ambiguous gesture - did she do it because she could, or becausea she wanted to spare the baby pain once the big nuclear attack started?

Also, of course I've loved other baby-killing characters in other fandoms. Darla killed babies. Angel killed babies. (Spike, see yesterday, also killed them, but as I only like but not love him, he's not a good example to my point.) I always despised the sentimentality of Lindsey MacDonald who is perfectly fine with procuring nubile teenage victims for his vampire clients (see City of) but suddenly starts with the scruples when toddlers are involved. So, what's the age limit of murder being objectionable? Either it is, or it isn't.

(Sidenote, and speaking of teenager-killing: what is your take on Lucas Buck? I mean, we see him kill Merlyn and, via flashback, rape her mother in the pilot of the show. And still come to love him. Villain that he is.)

As for Six: found her interesting from the baby-killing onwards, but I think it's the second season why made me truly love her in her various incarnations. Her and Baltar both. Yes, I confess: I've gone from "interesting" to "I like him" to "beloved character" where Gaius is concerned.

[kernezelda]

Because that actually was an ambiguous gesture - did she do it because she could, or becausea she wanted to spare the baby pain once the big nuclear attack started?
Now, that is interesting, as I hadn't thought of Six as sparing the child potential pain. But given that the nuclear would kill the child instantly, in its close locale, it's not sparing all that much pain, after all.

Infanticide has been around forever, but I think that it's a biological trait in most people, to protect children, because without them, there's no continuance of an individual, a group, a culture. I find Roslin's actions repellent in light of Sharon and Helo's grief, but she's quite right regarding the larger picture and strategy, that the hybrid child is a major pawn, and should be hidden away.


I was thinking of Aeryn Sun, actually, and how she's introduced and garners audience sympathy for over a season, before her past is revealed. We're told she was a soldier, and she's a proud, strong woman to admire. Then we are shown the actuality of her being an order-following-soldier who murders at a word. It's devastating, but we love her still, because she is changing visibly all the time, and we are shown that she deeply regrets her past.

First impressions, etc. How a character is introduced makes a great deal of difference.


(Sidenote, and speaking of teenager-killing: what is your take on Lucas Buck? I mean, we see him kill Merlyn and, via flashback, rape her mother in the pilot of the show. And still come to love him. Villain that he is.)
I always took Buck's killing of Merlyn as a mercy-killing. It was a short scene, but he did seem regretful. If Buck had been sufficiently foresighted, he might have institutionalized her instead, for later/secondary production of a Cross-Buck heir, a woman who wouldn't cause any problem later on, unless the Temple blood diluted the strain and made Merlyn unsuitable.
If Caleb in his sudden absorption of his father's rage could attempt to forcibly abort Gail's child, could he have done the same to Merlyn's? He was much more protective of her his whole life, unlike Gail, a relative stranger.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Now, that is interesting, as I hadn't thought of Six as sparing the child potential pain. But given that the nuclear would kill the child instantly, in its close locale, it's not sparing all that much pain, after all.

True, though there is no guarantee that particular child would be at ground zero, as it were. It could be dismembered and lying about dying of bloodloss and radioactivity for hours. Anyway, I did think of that when watching the scene, because Six isn't being malicious or smirking or anything like that. (And felt a bit smug when the actress said in an interview that was her own interpretation, but I know, meta doesn't count.)

I was thinking of Aeryn Sun, actually, and how she's introduced and garners audience sympathy for over a season, before her past is revealed. We're told she was a soldier, and she's a proud, strong woman to admire. Then we are shown the actuality of her being an order-following-soldier who murders at a word. It's devastating, but we love her still, because she is changing visibly all the time, and we are shown that she deeply regrets her past.

True. hobsonphile brought up B5 and the different perceptions of war crimes as committed by Delenn and by Londo which also illustrates this point. The Earth-Minbari war is the backstory of the show, but we only get brief glimpses in flashbacks on screen, and it's not until the fourth season we find out Delenn actively voted to annhilate the entire human race in her grief for Dukhat. Also, we're told that the Minbari didn't just want to defeat the humans but wipe them out, true, but again, back story. Actively, on screen, we see Delenn being a good person (mostly), acting nobly. Meanwhile, Londo is introduced as a sympathetic character but we do see his crimes played out on screen in real time, we know some of the victims and sympathize with them, and though the Centauri do not wipe out the Narn nor intend to, we're far more horrified by their behaviour than we are about that of the Minbari, because it happens over one and a half seasons, and again, real time.

If Caleb in his sudden absorption of his father's rage could attempt to forcibly abort Gail's child, could he have done the same to Merlyn's? He was much more protective of her his whole life, unlike Gail, a relative stranger.

I don't think he would have turned against Merlyn as quickly as he turned against Gail, no. She was the person he loved most, after all. But he clearly wasn't stable, to put it mildly, so he might have acted on impulse while regretting it a moment later.

Anyway, re: Lucas - yes, that would have been more pragmatic. And I think he liked to think of it as a mercy killing. However, it might have been just as much getting rid of an obstacle. As her father had attacked her, Lucas could get rid of him, but that still left Merlyn and Caleb's strong tie to her, and he wanted Caleb all for himself. (He couldn't have known that his killing Merlyn would make her a far more formidable opponent than any of the living inhabitants of Trinity.)

[kernezelda]

I remember Hobson's points, and they are good ones.

He couldn't have known that his killing Merlyn would make her a far more formidable opponent than any of the living inhabitants of Trinity.)
Tsk. A man connected to and able to manipulate supernatural forces should be able to foresee the effects, or at least have read up on ghost stories sufficiently to know that innocents often return from unjust death to wander about in white and cause trouble for their killers.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Great review, not much to add on this end--

Although I kind of adored Roslin saying, "If I want to throw a baby out an airlock, I'll say so."

The Oedipus and/or Moses parallels are interesting -- somehow Roslin is both Moses's mother AND Pharaoh though; she's the one who ought to be ordering the child's death, but is actually saving it. I wonder if there are similar foundling legends w/i the Galactica-verse. (Also, how fast does a Cylon/human hybrid baby grow up? Maybe we'll have a Connor situation! And a 'thank-you- very-little, Laura' from the freaked out mother.)

As far as the POV-shift, the one bit that was especially creepy was seeing Anders, previously most notable as Kara's woobie, sounding creepily like a terrorist as he justifies taking out "civilian" targets. Of course, one can argue they're all toasters to him, but it's still an eerie echo.

and Zarek next week -- score!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Although I kind of adored Roslin saying, "If I want to throw a baby out an airlock, I'll say so."

An instant classic.*g* You know she would, too.

Also, how fast does a Cylon/human hybrid baby grow up? Maybe we'll have a Connor situation! And a 'thank-you- very-little, Laura' from the freaked out mother

He. Yes, that can be. After all, none of the Cylons were children before, they were designed as adults in adult bodies, so who knows? Plus it's always a way to avoid having a toddler on a show for too long.*g*

As far as the POV-shift, the one bit that was especially creepy was seeing Anders, previously most notable as Kara's woobie, sounding creepily like a terrorist as he justifies taking out "civilian" targets. Of course, one can argue they're all toasters to him, but it's still an eerie echo.

That is currently hotly debated at TWOP, I think - one side saying it reminded them of Iraq (with the Cylons as Americans), the other saying that no, it's Nazi-occupied France, with Anders being the Maquis. Personally, I'm reminded of a DS9 episode written by the enterprising Mr. Moore called The Darkness and the Light, in which someone takes out all the members of Kira's old resistance cell. And then she finds him, and in the showdown between them, things get muddy because this is a Cardassian who wasn't a soldier but a civilian, who was crippled through a bomb which blew up a Gul's house (he was a servant; said bomb also killed the wife, the children, well, anyone in the house), and he points out to Kira that when killing her comrades, he at least made sure that they were the only ones who died, not any bystanders around them. She's also highly pregnant at this point and he doesn't want to kill her child, so he wants to do a C-section before he kills her, and the reason why she's able to defeat and kill him is because he has pity on her and doesn't want her to go through this conscious, so he tries to give her an anaesthetic.

Now, Kira in her reply says, re: the resistance killing any Cardassians they came across, "you all deserved it" because none of them should have been on Bajor. It's one of the great things about DS9 that it never tried to portray Kira's resistance fighter past as one where she magically only killed soldiers and out and out bad guys. She calls herself a terrorist (not meaning this negatively) at several points in the show. Of course, this was broadcast pre-9/11. (I once wrote an essay about DS9 watched in a post-9/11 world.) But the thing is, you can both see her point - the resistance on Bajor was so vastly inferior from a military pov that they had to fight dirty, they were ready to do anything, anything at all to get rid of the Cardassians, and ultimately, it worked - and why the Cardassian in this episode calls her a murderer.

So, Anders & Co. are in an even worse situation vis a vis the Cylons on Caprica than the Bajorans were vis a vis the Cardassians. But yes, there is something chilling about his methods, and I don't think the Blade Runner homage of letting him use the term "skin job" for the human-looking Cylons is a coincidence. (When people in BR do this for the Replicants, it's not meant to characterize them as good guys.)

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

That is currently hotly debated at TWOP

Now, WHY do people call fanfic dot net the pit of voles, when that board is around? /snark

That is an interesting parallel to the DS9 ep -- was it one of RM's?

And I knew the 'skin job' thing sounded familiar!

I honestly expected this ep to end with conscience-Six & Boomer being boxed, so I was happy/surprised when they got to live. I'm guessing that whatever happens with them is being saved for next season, and the last couple episodes will mostly be military + Colonial politics. But it will be interesting to see if they crop up again. Now it occurs to me that their ability to develop a conscience -- even if only through interaction with/living as humans -- is the kind of thing, like Harmony's apparently spontaneous reformation (undercut, admittedly, in NFA) to cast doubt on the whole moral system vis-a-vis the enemy? (ie, if a vampire can sort-of reform w/o a soul or chip, is a "stake first, ask questions later" policy as defensible as the good guys have always thought? I do think that making Harm a traitor is meant to undercut this question, but then, it's also been frequently pointed out that human Harm would have done the same thing).

And I just managed to make this comment about Harmony. On the other hand, I didn't say 'Wesley' at all.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting parallel to the DS9 ep -- was it one of RM's?

Yes, it was.

I honestly expected this ep to end with conscience-Six & Boomer being boxed, so I was happy/surprised when they got to live.

Same here!

I'm guessing that whatever happens with them is being saved for next season, and the last couple episodes will mostly be military + Colonial politics.

Unless. How about this for a cliffhanger, which would actually make the various not so connected recent eps make sense together: Roslin loses the election, close, but she loses, and Baltar wins. At the same time, emissaries from the Cylons arrive, and lo and behold, it's Original Boomer, offering a truce with the humans. New President Baltar, supported by Gina and her peace party pals, accepts. But! Boomer, to redeem herself for the shooting and because her primarily loyalty is still with the humans, tells Adama and the just defeated Roslin that Baltar was the one who gave Six access to the Colonial defense grid. Maybe she even has hard evidence, like a recording of a conversation she has had with Six.

This naturally changes everything, negates the elections (he's a traitor!), and brings Roslin back to power... only then she realizes that the truce offer had actually been genuine, but now everyone is out for blood because Baltar's exposure totally has discredited all peace with the Cylons efforts...

Now it occurs to me that their ability to develop a conscience -- even if only through interaction with/living as humans -- is the kind of thing, like Harmony's apparently spontaneous reformation (undercut, admittedly, in NFA) to cast doubt on the whole moral system vis-a-vis the enemy? (ie, if a vampire can sort-of reform w/o a soul or chip, is a "stake first, ask questions later" policy as defensible as the good guys have always thought? I do think that making Harm a traitor is meant to undercut this question, but then, it's also been frequently pointed out that human Harm would have done the same thing.

Yes, human Harm would have, but I do believe her backstabbing in NFA was so she wouldn't be the vampire able to be a good guy sans chip or soul. However, BSG doesn't have quite the same problem - letting individual Cylons develop remorse about the genocide and sympathy for the humans would not wreck the premise of the show the same way letting vampires sans soul reform would destroy the premise of BTVS (and by extension AtS). As the premise of BSG is more about the Aeneid aspect - survivors of the destruction of a world, humanity post apocalypse etc. - then it is about human/Cylon war. And don't forget Moore's Trek/DS9 roots. The Dominion War ended via loving-the-solids-Odo returning to his people and sharing his experiences and values with them.

On the other hand, I didn't say 'Wesley' at all.

I noticed, and am impressed.*g*

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I like your imaginary season finale. How does Zarek fit in? (As long as I'm not mentioning Wesley, I can only ignore my pets so much )

True that the potential for Cylon-reform doesn't change the premise of the show -- a war's a war, even when the other side is human -- but it could negate the "toaster" sentiment a bit. Though of course, Moore has been working against that from the beginning, anyway.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

and also -- I wonder if Anders (who I also expected to die!) will be at all influenced by knowing a couple of Cylons spared him?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Nah. Other Sharon saved him, Kara and a couple of other folk and it didn't maken an impression, either.