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selenak: (Laura Roslin - Kathyh)
[personal profile] selenak
No better way to start a Sunday than to watch BSG and mull over the issues. Show, pray keep this level up, and the Black Market to Captain's Hand period from last season is forgiven.



I think it's important that we're presented with two cases here, Jammer and Gaeta, not solely Gaeta, because the later would be cheating. We know Gaeta did everything he could to help the resistance. Allow me an aside to one of my favourite Babylon 5 episodes, In the Shadow of Z'Ha'dum. In which the show's leading man, in as much as B5 has one, Sheridan, walks all over the civil right's of one of the show's villains. Now, the audience knows the guy he locked up, Morden, is actually up to no good. But the show still makes the point that this is wrong behaviour on the part of Sheridan. That "well, he's a villain" is no excuse. It's the anti-24-attitude, if you will.

So, Jammer, no matter how well intentioned, did actually get people killed. He did collaborate. He is not innocent or a Misunderstood Woobie (tm). He's probably representative for the majority of the people actively collaborating with the Cylons. But his execution is still something not presented as good or justifiable.

Meanwhile, the people forming the Circle aren't presented as villains, either. In the first season, the weakest episode was probably Litmus because as far as witch tribunal allegories go, this was a bad one, and also because Adama was so clearly meant to be the good guy and his opponent so clearly the boo-hiss worthy villain. Not so here. We know where they're coming from; we know what they have been through. Tyrol, Tigh and Seelix have been with us from season 1 onwards, Sam Anders since season 2, the only unfamiliar face is Connor and he's presented as someone who lost his child, so he's not a hissable villain, either. Compare that to Litmus in which the opposition was someone who only showed up in all of two episodes, or for that matter the annoyingly characterisation-and-believability-less people from Sacrifice or the group who took Gina in, and I'm really, really happy. Well. In a "no, don't do that!" screaming sort of way, but at the characters, not at the writers.

As guessed by everybody and their Cylon, killing Ellen broke something in Saul Tigh. He's now doing what used to be unthinkable to him, critisizing Adama in front of everyone (he wasn't even able to critisize Adama when alone with Ellen in previous times), and of course, he wants to see all the collaborators dead. If they don't deserve to die, then Ellen didn't; if they deserve mercy, then Ellen did; if he doesn't kill them, he killed Ellen for nothing. Nothing at all. All the same, Tigh isn't completely broken; he does cling to the procedures, to the idea that this is justice - six jurors, the presidential justification - he needs to believe he's not executing a personal vendetta.

Kara is the opposite. Kara doesn't have any illusions about this being for a higher principle when she comes to join the tribunal, and she doesn't want to believe that. She knows she is looking for personal payback. What I don't get is that this is surprising anyone, or leading to Kara being declared utterly vile and beyond redemption now. Go back to the miniseries, to the Kara Thrace everyone fell in love with, and what is the very first thing we see her do, that jogging and quick exchange with Adama aside? Lashing out at Tigh, provoking him ("how's the wife, Colonel") and punching him. And this is Kara in peaceful times, in a good mood, as happy as she's likely to be. How does Kara Thrace react to four months of complete isolation and relentless mind games, with the last one being just the final kick in the stomach? Guess what. No, it's not pretty so see. And no, of course Gaeta didn't do anything to deserve that treatment (and even if Gaeta had not helped the resistance but had done nothing but prepare Baltar's coffee, Kara's "beg!" still could have been horrible). But it's entirely in character and anything else would underplay her brokenness, or her general emotional make-up.

(And here's me being predictable again: when everyone loved Kara, I just liked her, but now that she's apparantly getting the Buffy-in-s6-and-s7-treatment from fandom? I could come to be a partisan. Anyway, I agree with this lengthy Kara essay.)

The ambiguity is presented a plenty on the political leval as well. I think it was [livejournal.com profile] deborah_judge who recently was afraid that Zarek would be changed in to a white knight, now that the show does something with his chemistry with Roslin. Well, as this episode makes clear, obviously not. And yet he's not suddenly a boo-hiss worthy villain, either. I love how he and Roslin see exactly the same logic as to why actual trials and due process dealing with the collaborators would tear the fleet apart - and come to two very different conclusions about it. Tom goes for the secret tribunal, Laura for the general amnesty (aka the South African model, as the "commision for truth" term makes clear in case anyone missed it). Which is why I'm ultimately glad Laura is Queen, err, President again. But I do hope she keeps her part of the deal and makes Tom Zarek VP (I guess we'll find out next week). They need each other. Checks and balance.

Which brings me to Adama. Note that Zarek says in the initial conversation with Roslin, when she expresses amazement he's so willing to hand over the presidency to her, that he's a realist and that Adama made it clear Roslin had the military support. Bear in mind this is long before Adama finds out about the tribunals. Now, given that the last time Adama stuck up for democracy over personal loyalty, this ended with Baltar as President, I'm not entirely surprised, but it's still Adama making the opposite choice now: Laura Roslin would have had no legal claim to the presidency at all, and he'd have supported her if Zarek had chosen to insist on his position as the legally elected President (well, VP turned President due to Baltar being removed from office). Which is as anti-democratic as his military coup in Kobol's Last Gleaming and would have probably destroyed the notion of democracy in what's left of humanity altogether. Which is probably yet another reason why Zarek went for the deal with Roslin instead. I find it fascinating that Laura instantly offered him the Vice Presidency, because he didn't specify which position in her goverment he wanted. And oh, the irony: that was the very job he campaigned for back in Colonial Day and would have won if she hadn't entered Baltar in the race instead.

Sidenote to on the Zarek-sanctioning-the-Circle matter: I must say, I loved Peter David's take on this:

And, of course, the real kicker is that we have a situation where hidden tribunals, torture and death are sanctioned by the head of a Democratic government. That could NEVER happen in the real world.

Quite.

Not enough Cylon-and-Gaius scenes for my taste, but I expect we'll get more in the next episode. What we did get was interesting as always. Baltar's dream showed Six-in-his-head in a reverse function to what she used to have: she doesn't bring either sex, solace, or urgings to do this or that, but is the embodiment of his guilt. Which, of course, on another level, she always has been. Remember in Fragged, when she told him "I'll be your conscience"?

Meanwhile, CapricaSix is trying to be a Cylon again and to rid herself of her love for him. It's typical for Gaius Baltar that what he does say is dead wrong and unconvincing - but that he's still not lying. Not any more. Because not only does she love him but I do think (now) he loves her. The one point where he could make that declaration with any credibility, though, was, again with a fitting irony, when she couldn't hear it and when for once he didn't want anything for himself. I'm referring to the scene in Pegasus when he was trying to get Gina to eat something, and told her about himself and CapricaSix, ending in "I love her".

Lastly: ever since CapricaSix told Three "if you had ever experienced love, you wouldn't ask", I suspected that somewhere in Three's mind, there was the idea of taking Baltar away from Six. For curiosity, because she's still ticked off about that headbashing in Downloaded, and now also possibly because of Hera. But given her scene this week, my suspicion that she'll try has grown stronger.

Lastly: the silent scene with Tigh and Ellen's clothes at the end made me teary-eyed again. Damm you, Edward Albee couple, for being so tragic!

ETA: can't believe I overlooked this, but: Roslin gave that general amnesty to everyone who collaborated with the Cylons. Without specifying. Which means, in theory, that it applies to Baltar as well! Not, mind you, that anyone is in a position to tell him so, or even that such legalities would matter if he were to be on Galactica right now, but it could be important for later in the season. Bet Laura didn't think of that one...

Date: 2006-10-29 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adn-heming.livejournal.com
I'm equally baffled by the vitirol thrown Kara's way: not because her actions and her motives weren't reprehensible---they were. But given what she has been through, they MAKE SENSE. I don't expect her to be thinking about being right and wrong, at this stage---much less thinking at all. Unfortunately, abuse victims DO lash out. As I see it, the fault lies with the people who selected Kara to take part in the decision-making and executions; and Zarek for choosing people with personal vendettas to exact revenge.

(I'm also incredibly infuriated, btw, at some of the BSG meta that compared Kara's internment to Tigh's, said she got off lightly in comparison and that she was emoting over NOTHING. *strangles*)

Date: 2006-10-29 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
So with you there. There are many kinds of hell; Kara and Tigh went through different ones, but I don't see how that makes Kara's something which should be treated as somehow less or negligible.

Date: 2006-10-31 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
As I see it, the fault lies with the people who selected Kara to take part in the decision-making and executions; and Zarek for choosing people with personal vendettas to exact revenge.

Dear God, yes -- I was watching them bring Kara in and I said "worst jury selection EVER."

I'm with those who are suddenly interested in Kara again -- I was a fan from the beginning, but other than "Scar," I haven't liked much that was done with her character since then. The scenes with Anders made me bawl because, well, that's me and "love among the post-traumatic stress disorders." (Also, I have to say I've been pulling for Kara/Anders ever since reading a sympathetic Anders-POV story, where people were actively rooting for him to die, in the feedback comments, so that Kara and Lee could get together.)

I'm not sure how I feel about the Zarek angle on this episode; on one level it seemed a pretty convenient way to absolve Roslin, while letting Moore & Co. get in a political point about secret trials (and I half expected to find out that the scene between the two of them arguing about the tribunals was staged for Adama's benefit -- but I had to reluctantly discard that as not making a lot of sense). But I did like the way he talked about prisoners showboating and using the system and making themselves martyrs BECAUSE HE WOULD KNOW. Ahh, Tom.

Date: 2006-10-31 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Dear God, yes -- I was watching them bring Kara in and I said "worst jury selection EVER."

Blame Seelix, since we're shown her watching Kara's scene with Gaeta at lunch and then moving in to a close-up, with the next thing being Kara invited, so obviously Kara's behaviour was what qualified her in Seelix' eyes. Kara isn't the only one with a need for vengeance, obviously...

I do like Anders, but must say he's a bit of a hypocrite; he was the one who was all "Die, Ellen, Die!" on Caprica, after all. However, it makes sense that once he has time to think and has to take part in an execution himself, he might feel differently. In any case, this appears to be the most healthy romantic relationship Kara has had, so I hope it's not completely over yet. Though again, it makes character sense for Kara to withdraw.

Zarek: Of course he would know.*g* Incidentally, new angle: he spent those four months in detention again and I think when we see him in "Precipe" his ear looks like it's half torn off. So, question - is he acting for ruthless logic reasons - i.e. the one he names - or might he, too, be affected by the general payback mood? Mind you, I also can see him shrug those four more months off, considering the jailtime he had already. I'm just throwing ideas around.

Date: 2006-10-31 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
There was definitely a bit of a leap on Anders' part, so that I was WTFing when he was the one who walked out of the room. However, as the ep went on I started to buy it more, that his view changed once they got away from the planet; you could argue that his motives re: Ellen were machiavellian -- the resistance was still ongoing; also, unlike the others, he was living in a state of resistance on Caprica for a lot longer. Post-exodus, he started to re-evaluate; also, having Kara back might have changed his emotional view of the situation. Anders is by no means perfect (for God's sake, if you think the executions are wrong, stay on the jury and vote no; don't pull a Pilate and walk away), and I don't think his characterization is totally consistent, but I continue to hope he's well used.

As for Zarek -- well, yeah; the whole composition of the tribunals he chose shows he might not have been using the most impartial judgment. He WANTED convictions and executions. Personal and political motivations have been mixed up for him since his introduction in Bastile Day. (You know who knew that? Lee. Who's apparently too busy having his fitness regime mocked for anybody to care about his views on democracy or to remember that he, together with Zarek, is the reason they ever had elections in the first place).

Date: 2006-11-01 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adn-heming.livejournal.com
Oh yes. I am unbelievably cranky about that. I didn't mind Lee gaining weight---I was happy at first because hey, how many shows dare desexify their young sexy lead characters? What made me cranky was the way they made so much of it, and to Lee's detriment. Imagine how much more daring that move would have been if it had been permanent---or for a longer period of time than we've been given, and still have Lee actively involved in the politicking that made him so compelling in Season 1 early season 2? To show how much he's matured as commander and caretaker, how he'll utilize that to ease the integration between the two crews, the tensions between those who remained at their posts and those who chose to go to New Caprica?

Hopefully, they'll pick up the ball again with Lee soon, same as they've done with Kara.

Date: 2006-11-01 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Absolutely!

Also -- icon love! I need to go over there and demand Cyclops/Starbuck because . . .*dissolves in a bubble of incoherence and flail*. . .yeah, just because.

Date: 2006-10-31 11:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adn-heming.livejournal.com
Also, I have to say I've been pulling for Kara/Anders ever since reading a sympathetic Anders-POV story, where people were actively rooting for him to die, in the feedback comments, so that Kara and Lee could get together.

I...that's...wow. There's more crack in this fandom than I gave it credit for. (although after the comments regarding Kara and situating her treatment as preferable compared to Tigh's, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.) Where can I find this story btw?

One of the things I love about this show. All its principled Machiavellans. *g*

Date: 2006-11-01 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Here's the fic -- I think I found it through [livejournal.com profile] crack_van. It's a good Anders-POV, though definitely told by a K/L shipper:

Tell me enough (http://rawles.livejournal.com/188581.html).

Date: 2006-11-02 03:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adn-heming.livejournal.com
Thanks for the link! And, wow. That is a lovely, insightful look at Anders. I don't know how anyone can read that, and still cheer on Ander's death. oO.

Date: 2006-10-29 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hobsonphile.livejournal.com
I, too, am perplexed by the vitriol thrown Kara's way. I interpreted "Beg!" as an expression of unconscious guilt - that a part of her (deep down) had realized exactly what they were all doing and wanted an excuse to turn back.

Meanwhile, regarding Roslin and Zarek, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that the status quo was so easily restored with a backroom deal. Personally, I find it extraordinarily problematic that Roslin - although yes, she is the queen ;) - has yet to be officially elected as president of the Colonies.

Date: 2006-10-29 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
By now, I've come yet across another interpretation of "beg" which I also find intriguing: that Kara was projecting some of her own (irrational) guilt on Gaeta, because in the end, Leoben broke her, and she could offer no effective resistance.

Re: Roslin: oh, it is problematic. And I don't think we're meant to overlook that she still has no public mandate. Sure, I bet if you asked people now, they'd confirm her, but then, I'm also sure it's going to be at least a month or so before anyone is in a state to hold elections, and if they hold them then, things might have changed again. We'll see.

Anyway: I do find it in character. She wasn't kidding when she replied to Zarek's "I wish you had done it" with "so do I" regarding the stealing of the elections. They both obviously meant it. Which you can understand given the current situation, but which is NOT democracy. We'll see whether Roslin is able to let go and have elections - real elections - risking losing again once the fleet is in a more stable state...

Date: 2006-10-29 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com
that Kara was projecting some of her own (irrational) guilt on Gaeta, because in the end, Leoben broke her, and she could offer no effective resistance.

That's the way I heard it, too: "you beg for mercy, and I'll get to tell you - and hear everyone else tell you - why no excuse for working with the Cylons is good enough, even if you say you had good reasons to keep working for Baltar, even if you say you were still on our side." What's most disturbing about it is the idea that she didn't necessarily disbelieve Gaeta's explanations earlier, just didn't think they mattered.

About D'Anna and Baltar, and the scene on the Cylon ship - I honestly thought she was Six for a moment, because of the white dress. Interesting idea...

Date: 2006-10-29 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skywaterblue.livejournal.com
I'm not actually in the fandom, so the news that Kara fangirls are going fuck nuts doesn't surprise me. This show has done just about anything to let them know they will not be getting their stars and hearts ending with Kara and Lee and yet they persist. Fuck that.

(Also, I always hated Buffy, so loathing her guts in S6 and S7 was not a problem for me.)

I think it's not that Baltar is dead wrong as much as he is mostly wrong. Much of the sentiment of his dialogue to me, sounds more and more like truth as we're progressing in season three. After all, he has the ability to be quite self-deceptive in the beginning of the show, but by season three he doesn't fall straight in with the Cylons and think that they have the ability to make things better. From the start it's apparent that even Caprica Six's reappearance in his life isn't enough to make it okay.

(Of course, the fact that he never really quite believed in New Caprica himself and spent the four months in a drug induced orgy with some hookers doesn't really help his case.)

Baltar's little aside to himself: "I need you too!" and then realizing that she can't hear him and saying: "Maybe I should have led off with that." That is true, but it isn't the 'real woman' that Baltar wants -- it's the fantasy woman who guides him. Caprica Six is not her.

Date: 2006-10-29 04:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deborah-judge.livejournal.com
Ah, but do we know what Roslin really wanted? Does she? The whole business reminded me of a 'rape' fantasy - the kind where one is forced to do precisely what one wants to do, without having to take the moral or emotional responsibility for it. Zarek forces her to accept the executions as already done, which keeps her from having to decide if she approves of them. And yes, there are other people she could have executed, but the circle knew they only had 48 hours and got the worst. Not only didn't she have to make the order, she didn't even have to make the decision.

Baltar is starting to remind me of Londo in terms of his amazingness and moral ambiguity. And his character arc. I loved how after his totally wrong and self-aggrandizing (if true) speech to Six he realized that he should have said something else altogether. And the more he loves Six, and the more he needs her, the more his loyalty to the Cylons becomes part of his soul and being rather than a survival strategy. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in the Londo direction of becoming a hero by doing something more terrible and self-destroying than we could have imagined. I wonder, if he did become aware that Roslin's decree included him, would be go back to the humans? Maybe he's also being forced to do what he really wants.

Date: 2006-10-29 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Zarek forces her to accept the executions as already done, which keeps her from having to decide if she approves of them. And yes, there are other people she could have executed, but the circle knew they only had 48 hours and got the worst. Not only didn't she have to make the order, she didn't even have to make the decision.

On one level, you could call this a seduction game, because that is certainly how he is presenting it to her as well - he's telling her this way, she starts her new presidency with clean hands, etc. (And I feel more justified than ever for my little suggested season 2 scene.*g*) And I think a part of her responds to that, but another rejects it. As opposed to the Cain case, here I don't think she'd have made either a direct or indirect request. We'll see how she handles Zarek in the future, and how she reacts when/if (I do think when) Baltar comes back. Because as opposed to Tyrol, Tigh, Kara etc, she hasn't had to face the need for personal vengeance. She does not hate any of the collaborators that way, or blames them. But Gaius? She might. Especially given her awareness that his connections to the Cylons predates New Caprica. So we'll see how she treats him.

Date: 2006-10-29 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deborah-judge.livejournal.com
Yes, Cain is exactly to the point - it's not like she is against extrajudicial executions in all cases.

And I think a part of her responds to that, but another rejects it.

And that's exactly it, she gets to have the wishes of both these parts fulfilled. That's what Zarek has done for her. She gets to have the executions *and* be judgemental about them.

she hasn't had to face the need for personal vengeance

Leoben?

Date: 2006-10-29 04:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com
People hate Kara now? Sigh. What does a woman have to do on TV to be deemed woobie. Like you I was under whelmed by early Starbuck, she seemed like a little girl dressing up Daddy’s cigars. But this Kara, who bites but knows herself well enough to warn Anders off, this is a Kara growing up the hard way, a Kara I could love.

In retrospect I seem to prefer Litmus to this episode but that was based on the issue being more balanced not the people presenting it, they clearly worked very hard to generate audience sympathy for the Circle’s point of view here.

Good point about both Zarek and Roslin having the same understanding of the issues. I had read people seeing it as Tom not understanding the quality of mercy but I think, as you say, he does but hasn’t Roslin’s faith that the people as a whole will. Interesting that the change of Presidency is done without either of them referring to the democratic process. I had thought Zarek wouldn’t want to challenge Roslin at this point because she would obviously have the popular vote after the New Caprica debacle but instead he seemed to regard Adama as her trump card.

Date: 2006-10-30 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Well, let's be realistic (ahem) - right now, Adama is her trump card, because Adama has the power to stage (another) military coup any time, and he certainly has the power to carry out his threat of locking up Zarek in a cell. (Which he made before learning of the Circle, i.e. simply based on his "I want Laura to be President, and not you" credo - and to be fair to Adama, probably caused by the fact he beat himself up in the last year-plus-four-months for stopping Laura from accepting the rigged elections and supporting Baltar's claim because Baltar did win the democratic vote.)

What does a woman have to do on TV to be deemed woobie.

Never ever hurt a male woobie, it seems. No matter how badly she's damaged herself, if she hurts a male woobie, she's out of favour.

Date: 2006-10-30 09:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com
Adama is a powerful card but one thing I love this series for is that it makes it very clear that no one card is sufficient by itself. As the recent and slightly less recent past has shown, military control of an unwilling civilian population or incarceration of its legitimate leader engenders resistance and Adama doesn’t have the option the Cylons did of nuking the inevitable insurgents and leaving. With the human race so close to extinction any civilian-military face off is going to lead to mutually assured destruction if neither side backs down. In that light I think it’s interesting the importance Tom gives military power. It may indicate that he sees the military playing a much more active role in civilian issues than they appear to have done under Roslin, alternatively he may believe Roslin sees things that way, given her willingness to rig the election.

Date: 2006-10-31 03:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
But this Kara, who bites but knows herself well enough to warn Anders off, this is a Kara growing up the hard way, a Kara I could love.

Oh, damn, you really hit on why I loved that scene. I liked Kara from the get-go, but I have to say that I liked her at the same time as recognizing that she was a poser --ie, I liked her BECAUSE she was a little girl with Daddy's cigars who was trying her damnedest to become the thing she acted like. I think that's been part of her character from the beginning, and it's possible that's an element that a lot of the fandom missed, instead just going for "she smokes cigars and flies planes and she's cooler than Lee."

I was in a discussion not long ago about whether I prefer characters who aren't self-aware to those who are, and I admitted that I tend to be fascinated by people who don't know themselves very well. However, the moments when those characters move toward self-awareness -- if only for a moment -- are some of my favorites because they actually feel earned.


Date: 2006-10-31 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com
Yes exactly, it’s those moments of transition. And those moments when the person realises that they’ve got nothing left, not even themselves and yet they’re still prepared, even a little, to use that nothing to try and do something. For someone. And probably fuck things up and hurt people even more in the process. Those are my girls.

Date: 2006-10-29 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
I thought the opening -- and showing two cases, not just Gaeta -- was perfect, showing all that was horrible about what they were doing without, frankly, squicking me into next week.

Unlike the Iraq parallels and the torture and military dictatorship stuff,
I didn't see this one as much of an analogy of what democratic heads of government nowadays might never ever do, as your Peter David quote suggests. It seemed more general than contemporary commentary to me.

Which is as anti-democratic as his military coup in Kobol's Last Gleaming and would have probably destroyed the notion of democracy in what's left of humanity altogether.

Adama and democracy -- he has a history of being down with democracy in theory, until it interfers with how things are done in his kingdom, and you're right to point out that his last experience with choosing principles over personal loyalty only enforced that. I loved that entire exchange to pieces; I took her offering him the VP spot to mean that she knew how fishy the military aspect was -- not enough to say, "No, no, Zarek is President!" to Adama, because she does think she knows best, but she knew. With the second Zarek scene, I was momentarily afraid that they'd take the chance to make him look awful so he couldn't become VP after all, but then I loved that too.

It's possible to not be surprised by Kara's actions and still not like her for them.

Date: 2006-10-29 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I took her offering him the VP spot to mean that she knew how fishy the military aspect was -- not enough to say, "No, no, Zarek is President!" to Adama, because she does think she knows best, but she knew.

Yes. It's a thing I love about Laura - she's capable of ruthlessness and taking the crooked way instead of the straight one, etc., but she does know there is a straight one, and that she's doing it.

Date: 2006-10-29 05:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] buffyannotater.livejournal.com
So, Jammer, no matter how well intentioned, did actually get people killed. He did collaborate. He is not innocent or a Misunderstood Woobie (tm). He's probably representative for the majority of the people actively collaborating with the Cylons.

OTOH, Tigh's horribly unethical methods of resistance, taking actions leading to the deaths of humans as a means to an end (such as shown in the webisodes) are what drove Jammer to join the Cylons in the first place.

Date: 2006-10-29 05:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
True, but that doesn't refute my point - we needed to see the Circle act against someone other than Gaeta, someone who had actively collaborated, because otherwise, the implication might have been "what these people (almost) did to Gaeta is wrong because it's Gaeta" not "because it's wrong".

And that was an unintentional Buffy/Faith quote. *g*

Date: 2006-10-30 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] c-mantix.livejournal.com
Great essay (and links). I'm glad [livejournal.com profile] midnightsjane pointed me in your direction!

I particularly appreciate your analysis of the political timbre of Collaborators. I'm looking forward to seeing Roslin, Zarek and Adama navigate the shoals of the division of power and public opinion up ahead!

Date: 2006-10-30 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
So do I, so do I.

Date: 2010-10-05 10:45 pm (UTC)
jesuswasbatman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jesuswasbatman
Just a quick addition to say that I didn't have so much of a clear-cut antipathy to Hadrian in Litmus. I think it comes from watching the deleted scenes at the same time as the S1 episodes as they were shown, as if you do that there's quite a bit of cut material that shows her trying to investigate the suspicious events hovering around Boomer and Tyrol, and becoming more and more convinced and angry that there's something very sinister going on and everybody's lying to her.

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