a bit B5, lots of BTVS

[selenak]

It's raining. See me do my Gene Kelley imitation. I can't tell you what a relief this is on my side of the Atlantic.

Babylon 5: My Vir story, now entitled Knowing Love, is up here . Once September starts, RL will have me back with a vengeance and lots of work to do, but who knows, I just might be giving in to another old B5 plot bunny first, which has been dogging my steps forever, a telepath story this time. A Bester and Lyta conversation, set during The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father when he's recovering in the hospital.

I watched two more BTVS season 6 episodes before my weekend visitor will arrive, both with writer and director audio commentary. Now Hell's Bell's was something of a disappointment - not the episode, which I love, but Rebecca Rand Kirshner and David Solomon made the mistake of getting too caught up in watching and not talking enough. Still, there were some nice tidbits, such as Solomon teasing Kirshner that she auditioned for the part of Spike's date (hey, other writers had their cameos!) , and Kirshner revealing she got married some weeks before writing the episode, "but Xander's mother isn't based on my mother, oh no". Buffy's desperate explanation to Anya why the wedding would have to wait was improvised by the entire writing staff when the story was broken. Also, as most fans probably already know, Joss wrote the entire Buffy/Spike encounter of that episode. Emma Caulfield and Nick Brendon were justly praised, but alas so much that there were far too many "Isn't she great!"s and "Isn't he cute?"s and not enough info.

Random personal impressions upon rewatching Hell's Bell's:
- Do Mr. and Mrs Harris remind anyone else of a ghastly version of not Xander and Anya, but Xander and Cordelia if they had gotten married in season 3?

- Even knowing what I do know (i.e. poor Anya doomed), I still feel sorry for both Anya and Xander, not just Anya, in this episode. I thought Nick Brendon really sold Xander was genuinely afraid of hurting Anya the way his father did his mother.

- Buffy is adorable in Hell's Bell's, between intercepting Harris Snr from insulting everyone further, distracting the guests with charades and juggling, being supporto girl to Xander and having her encounter with Spike in a honest, dignified and adult manner.


Normal Again, on the other hand, also with a writer/director combination for audio commentary (first time Buffy director Rick Rosenthal and first time Buffy writer Diego Guiterrez, though as Joss' assistant he was a BTVS veteran otherwise), was much more satisfying as far as commentaries were concerned. As I mentioned in my later-seasons-of-Buffy-praise a while back, I love the experimental episodes, and this was one of them.

Rosenthal digs the concept so much he thinks it should have been an end-of-season cliffhanger. (My thought: And wouldn't the fandom have screamed bloody murder?) Guiterrez disagrees - they did want people to question realities, but this particular episode was also commenting on Buffy's emotional state at that particular time in the arc, and couldn't have come at any other point. Or earlier than season 6, for that matter, for her to be actually tempted by the hospital scenario.

They love the ambiguity of it - yes, among other things it's a reflection of Buffy's psyche, but it's also a parallel world. That's what they call it in the commentary: a parallel reality. With both realities informing upon another; Guiterrez points out that Buffy's first extended trip to the mental hospital world, for example, is preceded by the Xander-Spike fight, and Buffy attacking Xander later by Xander being on the verge of discovering her affair with Spike. And then of course the Tara/Joyce-interference climax.

When the scene where the Doctor comments on Buffy inserting Dawn into her delusional world when it started to become less comforting, and on her villains now not being grandiose demons and gods but three guys she went to high school with comes up, Guiterrez mentions Joss grooved on the meta-narration aspect of it all. It was also a way to tell the fans (they mention the original online confusion about Dawn and later about the Trio as the season's villains here) "you know, we know what we're doing". Which we probably guessed. But what was surprising in a "duh!" way for me that Guiterrez said, during Spike's "you're addicted to misery" speech to Buffy, that this was also a meta thing - it wasn't just Spike talking to Buffy but himself talking to Joss.*g*

But, he continues, here's where the Jossian dictum of "give them what they need, not what they want" comes in.

As with the other commentators, they're wild about the actors - MT, AH, but most of all SMG, whom they single out for praise since this is really her episode. (An aside here: these commentaries were recorded when about half of season 7 was already over, and they knew the show would end. So if this was only praising the star for job related reasons, it wouldn't have been necessary anymore. Just saying.) Their favourite scene is when Buffy, watching the photo of herself with her parents, tells Willow she was in fact once in a mental asylum. ("That was so important for the character, and she nailed it. Watch that single tear on the left side. How does she do that?")

Incidentally, since it was hotly debated how this new information fits with previously established continuity: Guiterrez says it took place between the movie and the pilot.

Random observations of yours truly:
- they're right, it's a crucial scene and background information for Buffy; the foundation of her fear that if you tell about that other world/vampires/Slayerness/everything "not normal" in you, you get rejected by your nearest and dearest

- in a way, Dawn is right about this being Buffy's ideal world - the return to childhood with both parents together and no responsibility at all - but the surrounding circumstances make it a searing comment on Buffy's state by season 6; after all, it would have been possible to make that other world a wonderful paradise, only Buffy's mind, to paraphrase Agent Smith from The Matrix would have rejected that; she has to put herself into a straight jacket to accept it


- Warren's offhand comment about Andrew's Ocean's Eleven "I still think we need another eight guys for this" reference - "I should never have let you watch that movie" - is a nice and subtle comment about the power dynamics of the Trio having irrevocably changed at this point, just as the more obvious ostracizing of Jonathan.




Which Silver Screen Siren are you?
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I am a sleepy kitty face down in a pile of food.


Which sleepy kitty would you be?
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The Boat Hug

You're a big, wet, soppy hug. I emphasize 'wet'.
You're the type to go and nearly drown yourself
just to get rescued by that dream guy of yours.
You are the 'Oh Sam!' of true love.

And wet.


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Comments

Lookit me:

[honorh.livejournal.com]

The Death Kiss

So, you had to wait until he was dead until you
could plant one on the guy, huh? You shouldn't
stay like that forever. I mean, you never know
when Legolas is going to bite the big one. Be
ambitious, not passive with your death kisses!


(http://quizilla.com/users/AndreaLyn/quizzes/What%20Slashy%20Moment%20In%20Fellowship%20Are%20You%3F/)


Hehehe. I knew that would be mine. Love the bits and pieces you gave us, esp. about "Normal Again." You know my take on that ep, of course, and I was aware of yours, but it's fun seeing it from Gutierrez's pov. You know what? I just noticed he's another DG. Are we sure he's not the sexy, smoky-eyed, and spectacularly talented Drew Goddard?

And yeah, Joss is certainly addicted to misery. The Firefly crew should be happy they got out before he could really torture them.

And why do you get...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...that kiss and I don't, I'd like to know?

Also: having heard Drew Goddard on the Succubus Club, I can assure you he's someone else. But just as W&H has a thing for lawyers with the initials LM, Joss seems to have a thing for writers with the initials DG.

Here's my slashy moment...

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

The Waking

Ahh, public love displays. You like long walks on
the beach, being serenaded by love songs in the
moonlight, and holding hands in Elven
paradises. True love does have a strong grip,
as Frodo might agree.


(http://quizilla.com/users/AndreaLyn/quizzes/What%20Slashy%20Moment%20In%20Fellowship%20Are%20You%3F/)

Thanks for the invite honorh and selenak

[hobsonphile.livejournal.com]

I am a sleepy kitty face down in a pile of food.


(http://quizilla.com/users/liquorpig/quizzes/Which%20sleepy%20kitty%20would%20you%20be%3F/)


Heh. Cute.

I hope you do eventually get to tackle your other B5 plot bunny, because your first two stories were wonderful.

Hello there!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And welcome!

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

Even knowing what I do know (i.e. poor Anya doomed), I still feel sorry for both Anya and Xander, not just Anya, in this episode. I thought Nick Brendon really sold Xander was genuinely afraid of hurting Anya the way his father did his mother.

I agree NB did a fabulous job with the script. I did feel Xander’s pain. But I couldn’t finish the episode feeling sorry for him, not when he walked out like that, leaving Anya to deal with his atrocious family and all their friends. I dunno, maybe it was because I watched the episode with some newly married and newly engaged friends, and I’m swayed by their booing, but that episode gave that little added kick to Xander’s downhill spiral in my esteem in season 6. Ah well. It still rocked.

- Buffy is adorable in Hell's Bell's, between intercepting Harris Snr from insulting everyone further, distracting the guests with charades and juggling, being supporto girl to Xander and having her encounter with Spike in a honest, dignified and adult manner.

That she was. It was a gracious and sweet performance by SMG, and it was nice to finally see the Buffster happy again. Plus, she looked adorable - quite a feat for someone wearing a dress like that! ;-)

Rosenthal digs the concept so much he thinks it should have been an end-of-season cliffhanger. (My thought: And wouldn't the fandom have screamed bloody murder?) Guiterrez disagrees - they did want people to question realities,

I really can’t blame them for that. It was a pretty cool concept, in theory. But I didn’t like the implication that a story about a female superhero was so improbable and unrealistic that she must have dreamt it up. I mean, it obviously is improbable and unrealistic because of the superhero and demon stuff, but we’re being asked to suspend disbelief for that and accept it as metaphor. That leaves the female stuff at the forefront...But I’m probably not making any sense here...Anyway, I agree with Guiterrez. Leaving it as a season ending would have just annoyed me in so many ways.

But what was surprising in a "duh!" way for me that Guiterrez said, during Spike's "you're addicted to misery" speech to Buffy, that this was also a meta thing - it wasn't just Spike talking to Buffy but himself talking to Joss.*g*

For some reason I can’t fathom, I haven’t listened to the Normal Again commentary. This is great stuff, so it’s top on my ‘to do’ list when I get home from work tonight!

Incidentally, since it was hotly debated how this new information fits with previously established continuity: Guiterrez says it took place between the movie and the pilot.

It is a bit odd in light of Joyce’s reaction to Buffy’s revelation in Becoming. Shouldn’t her reaction has been closer to “so it was true all this time, Buffy I’m so sorry I doubted you and had you interned in a mental hospital…”? Still, I can forgive them that lapse in continuity, because the concept was cool. And, as you say, it goes along way to explaining why Slayers so willingly stay so secretive (at least in places that Are Not Sunnydale).

… to paraphrase Agent Smith from The Matrix would have rejected that; she has to put herself into a straight jacket to accept it

Wow. Cool observation. Plus, there's also some additional meaning in that straightjacket hinders her physically, takes away the strength and power that make her so different in the ‘real’ world in much the same way that being in an institution removes her burdens and responsibilities. She's completely powerless. I don't think it would usually be her ideal world in any way at all, but in season 6, at the height of her struggle to accept her slayerness and stop her downward spiral, the only way 'out' she can envision is abdicating everything that makes her the slayer and removing herself form her own control.

This is interesting

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

On the ATPO board (http://www.voy.com/14567/) there was a great deal of debate about a Joss remark that Buffy's relationship with Spike in S6 was about wanting to give up her power. Very few people had seen it in that way before, possibly because the board has a number of vocal Spike fans who saw Buffy as the one who had the power in that relationship. But certainly the extent of her fantasy self-abasement in Normal Again is intriguing.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Certainly a part of what drove the sexual relationship with Spike was Buffy's self-loathing and urge to seek oblivion, which also fuels the Normal Againscenario; it doesn't coincidentally start just after she found out that Spike, killer of two Slayers, can kill her again, and after he had given her the excuse of being "wrong"; i.e. she didn't have to face the responsibility of her own choices anymore. Hence her reaction to Tara's announcement which hands the responsibility right back to her.

Otoh, she does have more emotional power over Spike than he does over her, because he's completely focused on her, with no other emotional release (whereas Buffy, even in her darkest season 6 state, still has emotional ties to her friends and Dawn), and she knows it. She's also aware that she's exploiting it (as I wrote some entries before, Buffy's dream in Dead Things featuring Spike-as-Katrina/The Victim makes this very point), which in turn fuels more self-loathing. One very good reason why the relationship as it was in season 6 really had to end.

Re: The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

Re Joss’ comment, I agree. I’m definitely of the view that Buffy had more power within the relationship, and that she knew that she was abusing that power. This is certainly not to say that Spike was a shrinking violet – he was clever and manipulative enough to hold his own at times. But Buffy had power of him because he was simply so in love with her, and because there was very little in his life besides his relationship with her. Which is why I found Joss’ comment a little odd.

My own fanwank of the comment is pretty much that Buffy’s attempt to ‘give up her power’ didn’t involve letting Spike manipulate and control her so much as it did jumping into a downward spiral of her own design (which, ironically, was still somewhat under her own control, because she never could quite free herself from her that “slayer power” and need for control). Spike, her relationship with him, the way she treated him, were all symptoms of that, as were her nihilism and detachment generally.

Comment a little late...

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Normal Again - Rosenthal digs the concept so much he thinks it should have been an end-of-season cliffhanger.
Funny, my boyfriend said the same thing. But I disagree. If this would have been the end, it would have cheapened the message of Buffy that women are strong. It would have said that they could be only strong in their dream world. Before the rise of feminism, most strong women in media were portrayed as insane, and Buffy would have fallen into that stereotype. While I realize that the writers were commenting on how Buffy felt mental after coming back from heaven, it was out of the place with the whole strong woman concept of the show.

Oh, I disagree with Rosenthal as well.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And so, you'll notice, does the actual writer of the episode (Rosenthal was the director). It was an excellent episode at the point where they put it, and made sense in Buffy's season 6 character arc, plus I am a sucker for ambiguity - but putting it at the end of a season would have made for a very different impression.