Rewatch: Hiros (Heroes, episode 1.05)
May. 31st, 2007 11:26 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakI know I wanted to cut down on the Heroes stuff, but damm it, the fever is still raging. So, meta this time. I originally watched the first eighteen episodes in a row, during the hiatus, so my first single episode review was .07%. Which is as good an excuse as any to go back now and ramble about selected episodes from earlier in the season.
Hiros, episode 5, is a favourite of mine, and now the season is completed, it’s interesting to rewatch and see where various plot threads led to, or didn’t, and why this episode was where I went from like to love. Short answer: it comes after the quartet of establishing and introductory episodes, kicks off the season arc, as it were, and fleshes out the several characters beyond their initial parameters.
The most obvious arc-relevant events are Future!Hiro contacting Peter in the subway to deliver his “save the cheerleader, save the world” message. In retrospect, one wonders whether this is where the timelines start to diverge, or whether they don’t yet, as Future!Hiro said “you told me how lost you felt before it happened; this is what you’ve been waiting for”. Which can be interpreted as Future!Peter telling him this had already happened, or that he simply used a general statement of Future!Peter’s to pick this point in time to deliver his message. (Five Years Gone sort of settles that, of course.) At any rate, it’s fascinating, in retrospect, that Future!Hiro’s pitch line – “be the one we need” – which is so designed to fit Peter’s personality is the same line Angela uses with Nathan much later, characteristically phrase in the form of a question: “Can you be the one we need?” The pitch to Peter is not just that he’s asked to save the world, but it’s combined with the saving on an individual, which is, imo, what hooks him for good. (Peter is eager to believe anyway, but I think if Hiro had asked him to just get that sword from Linderman, for example, his enthusiasm would have been somewhat on a lesser scale.) Future!Hiro is a mystery by himself; for the rest of the season, right until Five Years Gone, we’d wonder what happened to change current Hiro into this grim Clint Eastwood type.
(And it’s to the credit of the show that this transformation was never presented as something desirable, but as something to be prevented.)
In terms of the overall narrative, the meeting serves the important function of making the season about more than a couple of individuals discovering their powers; from this point onwards, we knew some terrible future was awaiting, unless something was done to prevent it, and that it was connected to the explosion Hiro catches a glimpse of before teleporting back to Japan in the second episode. It was also the episode where various characters from different plot lines started to interact. Other than Mohinder, who stops interacting at this point, concluding that Peter isn’t special, he’s nuts. (When after my eighteen episodes marathon I started to look for fanfiction, I wondered where all the Peter/Mohinder came from, until I recalled that yes, they had some scenes in the early episodes.) In retrospect, it’s symptomatic for a significant shift – up to this point, Mohinder’s quest to learn about his father’s death and the “special” people had been used as an audience pov, but not anymore. His decision to return to India basically signalled his storyline stalling, for a lot of episodes to come, right until he met up with Sylar in disguise.
On the other hand, Claire’s storyline was progressing and deepening. Hiros is the episode after she crashed the car with Brody the serial date rapist in it. Arguably Claire, Hiro and Peter are the most “innocent” characters of the first season, and two out of three would know what it is like to kill someone before the season is over. Claire, the youngest of the three, finds out now. The fact Brody survives doesn’t change that. Just as important are the scenes with Claire and Mr. Bennet, and later Mr. Bennet and Brody. Claire confiding in her father, telling him what she did – while deciding not to tell her mother – shows that he’s the person closest to her. While the audience at that point didn’t know much about Mr. Bennet, other than his sinister bagging and tagging activity for the Company, his reaction bring home that he does love Claire just as much. And his retaliation is ingenious; killing Brody would burden Claire, but taking every single memory of him is taking his life in another way.) At the same time, the mutual father-daughter-agreement NOT to tell Sandra anything is ominous, and of course the mindwiping going on here is a huge warning sign if you choose to see it.
Meanwhile, Hiro and Ando have a fallout, which makes for Ando taking off in a huff to visit his personal Pretty Woman fantasy (and while one can argue about the storytelling choice to make Niki a stripper, I do like how this episode as other early ones make it clear that she’s not even remotely buying into that kind of fantasy, treats it as business and, as she says to Ando, the self she presents to earn her living is not her – and she’s not talking about Jessica). This allows Hiro to be alone when he meets Nathan, at which point the episode hits comedy gold. (And incidentally, it probably was quintessential that Hiro is temporarily alone when he meets Nathan, because I can’t see Nathan establishing the same kind of rapport with Hiro-and-Ando.) Whoever thought up this plot twist was a genius; the actors took it and ran with it, which made for follow up scenes, which made for probably the most unexpected relationship in the first season. Nathan Petrelli and Hiro Nakamura are probably the furthest apart on the scale of powered characters, leaving aside Sylar. Hiro as the biggest enthusiast about the whole thing, Nathan as the most sceptical and trying to repress it; jaded politician versus exubarant fanboy, and so on. If Hiro had seen Nathan for the first time when Nathan was, say, giving a speech, or earlier in the casino (where they were at the same time) when Nathan was busy flirting with Niki, I doubt he’d have cared. If Nathan had met Hiro on a social gathering, Hiro probably wouldn’t have registered, either.
But Hiro sees Nathan, who is on the run from Mr. Bennet and the Haitian, flying, and is enthralled. Nathan is thrown enough by the whole experience and the craziness of it all not to brush off Hiro. At first, he’s deadpan and while it’s clear he doesn’t believe Hiro, he doesn’t say so out loud or is unkind. I think what makes the relationship (and makes it the start of the relationship rather than one single funny encounter) is that Nathan comes back after his car arrived, and asks Hiro about whether he wins the election, which in turn emboldens Hiro to successfully ask for a ride to Vegas. Agreeing to this is the first time we see Nathan being kind to someone he doesn’t want anything from, and by the time we see them arrive in Vegas, all mutual laughter, it’s obvious that much like the fandom, he fell to Hiro’s charms.
(If you don’t love Hiro, you have no soul. Iron rule of the show.)
His scenes with Hiro aren’t the only good ones Nathan gets in this episode. There is the initial teaser with him escaping from Bennet & Co. (and if Nathan was paranoid about superpowers before, that should have settled it), and kudos to the special effects team for finding a way to make Nathan fly that doesn’t look like a ridiculous Superman imitation. It was probably also a wise decision to use that effect very sparingly, so each of the few scenes where it happens is arresting, and hugely significant in what is done with the flight. Then there is the morning after encounter with Niki. The whole one night stand subplot in Collision and Hiros is a neat way to illustrate the ambiguity of Nathan’s character. On the one hand, he’s capable of cheating on his wife (which clearly is not a laudable trait, and an illustration that Nathan is open to temptation in various ways); on the other hand, when Niki pulls back after the kiss in Collision, he doesn’t try pressure her, or shows any kind of jerk-ish behaviour. He respects her decision. In their conversation earlier, he actually opened up about two fairly intimate things; his wistful question “have you ever wondered what it is like to fly?” is the first hint we get Nathan could feel other than negative about his power, and his “it’s weird, having children, isn’t it? It’s as if you are two people; the one they see, and the one –“ Niki continues – “you see in the mirror” – goes to the core of a quintessential Nathan dilemma, the need to meet expectations, which will be of huge significance later on. In Hiros, when meeting Niki again in a situation that certainly made her look suspicious, to say the least, Nathan accepts her saying she didn’t have anything to do with the abduction without question, and responds to the distress she shows about not wanting to be the person she was last night by trying to comfort her and reassure her; then, when she confesses they were taped and he’s about to be blackmailed, he simply nods and leaves. No self righteous outburst, no blaming her, nothing.
The pay-off for the blackmail plot, however, isn’t this scene, it’s the subsequent encounter between Nathan and Linderman’s henchwoman, in which he outsharks her without a sweat. In retrospect, I think Nathan felt in control of the entire Linderman situation, both campaign and FBI wise, for as long as he thought Linderman was simply another mobster. A ruthless one, to be sure, and one who did have ties to his father, but still, nothing more than a criminal, and thus a part of the normal Nathan Petrelli life he’s good at handling. The moment Linderman reveals he’s not so much part of the “normal” world as he’s the pullstringer in the superpowers one, that confidence is lost.
Other than Nathan, Niki’s plot this episode has her meeting Ando (as mentioned above) and getting the news DL is out of jail, as well as eventually seeing him again. The way this is handled is one of the few times where one feels the show sacrificed character continuity for tension, because the reaction Niki shows, her fear, is completely out of proportion and not justified by the DL we later get to meet. (Or indeed the flashbacks in Six Months Ago which show them during their marriage.) Sure, she doesn’t know he’s been framed yet, but the way DL is characterised later – and indeed the Niki/DL relationship throughout the season – she should have at least suspected that, and she definitely should not have been afraid of seeing him again. It’s rather obvious that the writers just wanted to create suspense here, and never mind the guy is actually a contender for the Most Understanding Husband award.
Speaking of husbands: poor Matt is saddled with the worst of plotlines here. On the one hand, in theory, I get the concept. Matt is Everyman, the ordinary guy, who doesn’t want to save the world (or eat people’s brains), who doesn’t want to be special, and using the unwanted gift to save his marriage is using it in ordinary situations. However, it doesn’t make for entertaining tv (we’ve not been given much reason to care about Janice), and besides, I’m not sure whether all those scenes of him reading her mind are supposed to read as creepy as they do, instead of sweet. (And Greg Grunberg can do sweet. Just look at Weiss’ scenes with Nadia in season 4 of Alias.)
Returning to the beginning, Future!Hiro’s warning to Peter leads Peter to visit Isaac, which leads to Peter using his power-repeating consciously for the first time and some unexpected bonding. It’s a sad fact the Peter-and-Isaac scenes come across more interestingly than the Peter/Simone scenes, but there it is. Of course, the two do have things in common, other than their attraction to Simone: they’re both needy, infatuated with the idea of hero-dom, and brave enough to face death while trying to help others when it counts. In terms of changing timelines: the episode ends with Peter responding to current!Hiro’s phonecall and giving him the message from Future!Hiro. This causes “our” Hiro and Ando to go to Texas (and meet Charlie); it occurs to me this would not have happened if Future!Hiro had not shown up, which means Future!Hiro might never have met or loved her…
Hiros, episode 5, is a favourite of mine, and now the season is completed, it’s interesting to rewatch and see where various plot threads led to, or didn’t, and why this episode was where I went from like to love. Short answer: it comes after the quartet of establishing and introductory episodes, kicks off the season arc, as it were, and fleshes out the several characters beyond their initial parameters.
The most obvious arc-relevant events are Future!Hiro contacting Peter in the subway to deliver his “save the cheerleader, save the world” message. In retrospect, one wonders whether this is where the timelines start to diverge, or whether they don’t yet, as Future!Hiro said “you told me how lost you felt before it happened; this is what you’ve been waiting for”. Which can be interpreted as Future!Peter telling him this had already happened, or that he simply used a general statement of Future!Peter’s to pick this point in time to deliver his message. (Five Years Gone sort of settles that, of course.) At any rate, it’s fascinating, in retrospect, that Future!Hiro’s pitch line – “be the one we need” – which is so designed to fit Peter’s personality is the same line Angela uses with Nathan much later, characteristically phrase in the form of a question: “Can you be the one we need?” The pitch to Peter is not just that he’s asked to save the world, but it’s combined with the saving on an individual, which is, imo, what hooks him for good. (Peter is eager to believe anyway, but I think if Hiro had asked him to just get that sword from Linderman, for example, his enthusiasm would have been somewhat on a lesser scale.) Future!Hiro is a mystery by himself; for the rest of the season, right until Five Years Gone, we’d wonder what happened to change current Hiro into this grim Clint Eastwood type.
(And it’s to the credit of the show that this transformation was never presented as something desirable, but as something to be prevented.)
In terms of the overall narrative, the meeting serves the important function of making the season about more than a couple of individuals discovering their powers; from this point onwards, we knew some terrible future was awaiting, unless something was done to prevent it, and that it was connected to the explosion Hiro catches a glimpse of before teleporting back to Japan in the second episode. It was also the episode where various characters from different plot lines started to interact. Other than Mohinder, who stops interacting at this point, concluding that Peter isn’t special, he’s nuts. (When after my eighteen episodes marathon I started to look for fanfiction, I wondered where all the Peter/Mohinder came from, until I recalled that yes, they had some scenes in the early episodes.) In retrospect, it’s symptomatic for a significant shift – up to this point, Mohinder’s quest to learn about his father’s death and the “special” people had been used as an audience pov, but not anymore. His decision to return to India basically signalled his storyline stalling, for a lot of episodes to come, right until he met up with Sylar in disguise.
On the other hand, Claire’s storyline was progressing and deepening. Hiros is the episode after she crashed the car with Brody the serial date rapist in it. Arguably Claire, Hiro and Peter are the most “innocent” characters of the first season, and two out of three would know what it is like to kill someone before the season is over. Claire, the youngest of the three, finds out now. The fact Brody survives doesn’t change that. Just as important are the scenes with Claire and Mr. Bennet, and later Mr. Bennet and Brody. Claire confiding in her father, telling him what she did – while deciding not to tell her mother – shows that he’s the person closest to her. While the audience at that point didn’t know much about Mr. Bennet, other than his sinister bagging and tagging activity for the Company, his reaction bring home that he does love Claire just as much. And his retaliation is ingenious; killing Brody would burden Claire, but taking every single memory of him is taking his life in another way.) At the same time, the mutual father-daughter-agreement NOT to tell Sandra anything is ominous, and of course the mindwiping going on here is a huge warning sign if you choose to see it.
Meanwhile, Hiro and Ando have a fallout, which makes for Ando taking off in a huff to visit his personal Pretty Woman fantasy (and while one can argue about the storytelling choice to make Niki a stripper, I do like how this episode as other early ones make it clear that she’s not even remotely buying into that kind of fantasy, treats it as business and, as she says to Ando, the self she presents to earn her living is not her – and she’s not talking about Jessica). This allows Hiro to be alone when he meets Nathan, at which point the episode hits comedy gold. (And incidentally, it probably was quintessential that Hiro is temporarily alone when he meets Nathan, because I can’t see Nathan establishing the same kind of rapport with Hiro-and-Ando.) Whoever thought up this plot twist was a genius; the actors took it and ran with it, which made for follow up scenes, which made for probably the most unexpected relationship in the first season. Nathan Petrelli and Hiro Nakamura are probably the furthest apart on the scale of powered characters, leaving aside Sylar. Hiro as the biggest enthusiast about the whole thing, Nathan as the most sceptical and trying to repress it; jaded politician versus exubarant fanboy, and so on. If Hiro had seen Nathan for the first time when Nathan was, say, giving a speech, or earlier in the casino (where they were at the same time) when Nathan was busy flirting with Niki, I doubt he’d have cared. If Nathan had met Hiro on a social gathering, Hiro probably wouldn’t have registered, either.
But Hiro sees Nathan, who is on the run from Mr. Bennet and the Haitian, flying, and is enthralled. Nathan is thrown enough by the whole experience and the craziness of it all not to brush off Hiro. At first, he’s deadpan and while it’s clear he doesn’t believe Hiro, he doesn’t say so out loud or is unkind. I think what makes the relationship (and makes it the start of the relationship rather than one single funny encounter) is that Nathan comes back after his car arrived, and asks Hiro about whether he wins the election, which in turn emboldens Hiro to successfully ask for a ride to Vegas. Agreeing to this is the first time we see Nathan being kind to someone he doesn’t want anything from, and by the time we see them arrive in Vegas, all mutual laughter, it’s obvious that much like the fandom, he fell to Hiro’s charms.
(If you don’t love Hiro, you have no soul. Iron rule of the show.)
His scenes with Hiro aren’t the only good ones Nathan gets in this episode. There is the initial teaser with him escaping from Bennet & Co. (and if Nathan was paranoid about superpowers before, that should have settled it), and kudos to the special effects team for finding a way to make Nathan fly that doesn’t look like a ridiculous Superman imitation. It was probably also a wise decision to use that effect very sparingly, so each of the few scenes where it happens is arresting, and hugely significant in what is done with the flight. Then there is the morning after encounter with Niki. The whole one night stand subplot in Collision and Hiros is a neat way to illustrate the ambiguity of Nathan’s character. On the one hand, he’s capable of cheating on his wife (which clearly is not a laudable trait, and an illustration that Nathan is open to temptation in various ways); on the other hand, when Niki pulls back after the kiss in Collision, he doesn’t try pressure her, or shows any kind of jerk-ish behaviour. He respects her decision. In their conversation earlier, he actually opened up about two fairly intimate things; his wistful question “have you ever wondered what it is like to fly?” is the first hint we get Nathan could feel other than negative about his power, and his “it’s weird, having children, isn’t it? It’s as if you are two people; the one they see, and the one –“ Niki continues – “you see in the mirror” – goes to the core of a quintessential Nathan dilemma, the need to meet expectations, which will be of huge significance later on. In Hiros, when meeting Niki again in a situation that certainly made her look suspicious, to say the least, Nathan accepts her saying she didn’t have anything to do with the abduction without question, and responds to the distress she shows about not wanting to be the person she was last night by trying to comfort her and reassure her; then, when she confesses they were taped and he’s about to be blackmailed, he simply nods and leaves. No self righteous outburst, no blaming her, nothing.
The pay-off for the blackmail plot, however, isn’t this scene, it’s the subsequent encounter between Nathan and Linderman’s henchwoman, in which he outsharks her without a sweat. In retrospect, I think Nathan felt in control of the entire Linderman situation, both campaign and FBI wise, for as long as he thought Linderman was simply another mobster. A ruthless one, to be sure, and one who did have ties to his father, but still, nothing more than a criminal, and thus a part of the normal Nathan Petrelli life he’s good at handling. The moment Linderman reveals he’s not so much part of the “normal” world as he’s the pullstringer in the superpowers one, that confidence is lost.
Other than Nathan, Niki’s plot this episode has her meeting Ando (as mentioned above) and getting the news DL is out of jail, as well as eventually seeing him again. The way this is handled is one of the few times where one feels the show sacrificed character continuity for tension, because the reaction Niki shows, her fear, is completely out of proportion and not justified by the DL we later get to meet. (Or indeed the flashbacks in Six Months Ago which show them during their marriage.) Sure, she doesn’t know he’s been framed yet, but the way DL is characterised later – and indeed the Niki/DL relationship throughout the season – she should have at least suspected that, and she definitely should not have been afraid of seeing him again. It’s rather obvious that the writers just wanted to create suspense here, and never mind the guy is actually a contender for the Most Understanding Husband award.
Speaking of husbands: poor Matt is saddled with the worst of plotlines here. On the one hand, in theory, I get the concept. Matt is Everyman, the ordinary guy, who doesn’t want to save the world (or eat people’s brains), who doesn’t want to be special, and using the unwanted gift to save his marriage is using it in ordinary situations. However, it doesn’t make for entertaining tv (we’ve not been given much reason to care about Janice), and besides, I’m not sure whether all those scenes of him reading her mind are supposed to read as creepy as they do, instead of sweet. (And Greg Grunberg can do sweet. Just look at Weiss’ scenes with Nadia in season 4 of Alias.)
Returning to the beginning, Future!Hiro’s warning to Peter leads Peter to visit Isaac, which leads to Peter using his power-repeating consciously for the first time and some unexpected bonding. It’s a sad fact the Peter-and-Isaac scenes come across more interestingly than the Peter/Simone scenes, but there it is. Of course, the two do have things in common, other than their attraction to Simone: they’re both needy, infatuated with the idea of hero-dom, and brave enough to face death while trying to help others when it counts. In terms of changing timelines: the episode ends with Peter responding to current!Hiro’s phonecall and giving him the message from Future!Hiro. This causes “our” Hiro and Ando to go to Texas (and meet Charlie); it occurs to me this would not have happened if Future!Hiro had not shown up, which means Future!Hiro might never have met or loved her…
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no subject
Date: 2007-05-31 12:49 pm (UTC)The pitch to Peter is not just that he’s asked to save the world, but it’s combined with the saving on an individual, which is, imo, what hooks him for good.
Also, it's an order, not a request. Peter likes for people to be forceful with him :D
If Nathan had met Hiro on a social gathering, Hiro probably wouldn’t have registered, either.
I think there's a good chance Hiro would have been led off by security, much like Mohinder.
The moment Linderman reveals he’s not so much part of the “normal” world as he’s the pullstringer in the superpowers one, that confidence is lost.
Agreed. I really think that Nathan, until the finale, felt outclassed by other mutants. Superheroes are flawless in the movies, and I doubt he felt on par with that. I wonder how that ties in with his Daddy issues ...
In any case, this just means Nathan needed to spend more time with Hiro. That would have helped him adjust to being a mutant!
This causes “our” Hiro and Ando to go to Texas (and meet Charlie); it occurs to me this would not have happened if Future!Hiro had not shown up, which means Future!Hiro might never have met or loved her…
Hmm, that creates causality problems, though. If Hiro hadn't failed to save Charlie, would he have gone on a quest to find the sword? Oh! I just remembered. They don't even know where the cheerleader is until Homecoming, so it's not like Hiro and Ando changed the course of their roadtrip. So, it looks like Hiro always met Charlie, always loved her, and always lost her. ;_;
no subject
Date: 2007-05-31 12:57 pm (UTC)Did he go on the quest in the first timeline, though? If he did, it definitely had to work out differently, since finding the sword caused his trip to the future, and from Future Hiro's reaction I am pretty sure he didn't do that back then. On the other hand, looking at the diverging timelines too closely opens many different and shiny cans of worms, not to mention that Future Hiro becomes a bit of a problem in what he does and does not remember.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 05:21 am (UTC)Although, actually, they might ended up there anyway, prompting Future!Hiro's surprised reaction. He went in the original timeline, but they weren't supposed to do that anymore, with Claire safe. Of course, thinking about that particular loop is breaking my brain a little.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-31 08:20 pm (UTC)That, too.:)
I think there's a good chance Hiro would have been led off by security, much like Mohinder.
Ah, good reminder. Yeah, poor Mohinder. Also proving his rep as The Pretty But Dumb One Mohinder, since shouting at a campaigning politician "Your life is in danger" never works (didn't he read Julius Caesar?).
But anyway, it's a good counter example of how first encounters with Nathan Petrelli can go if he doesn't like you. *g*
In any case, this just means Nathan needed to spend more time with Hiro. That would have helped him adjust to being a mutant!
Spending time with Hiro makes everything better. I do hope that if Nathan is the one who gets the amnesia plot, Hiro will find him once he's back from ancient Japan, and reducate him in the ways of mutantdom...
no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 05:23 am (UTC)I still wish Nathan had gone with Hiro to the past. But Hiro re-educating Nathan on the ways of herodom (while Peter handles Petrellidom) would be a pretty good substitute.
Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 01:42 pm (UTC)Future!Hiro is a mystery by himself; for the rest of the season, right until Five Years Gone, we’d wonder what happened to change current Hiro into this grim Clint Eastwood type.
Some of us may even have entertained the idea that he was really Future Sylar in disguise. *whistles*
(And it’s to the credit of the show that this transformation was never presented as something desirable, but as something to be prevented.)
*nods fervently* Especially considering how popular Future Hiro was among the fans. It would have been very easy for the PTB to make him out as this cool, great warrior, and they didn't. Same as with Future Peter, naturally, who may be badass, but has ultimately lost a lot of what makes Regular Peter human.
In retrospect, it’s symptomatic for a significant shift – up to this point, Mohinder’s quest to learn about his father’s death and the “special” people had been used as an audience pov, but not anymore. His decision to return to India basically signalled his storyline stalling, for a lot of episodes to come, right until he met up with Sylar in disguise.
I'm wondering why they did this, actually. Did they notice fairly early that his storyline didn't work out - and I think it didn't, especially in connection with the voiceovers of excessive boredom - or was it because they had to evict Nora Zehetner earlier than planned? (I read recently that they exchanged Ted's and Eden's times of death, presumably because of contract conflicts.) Either way, I think it ultimately was for the better, since even though Mohinder flounders majorly over the next few episodes, he does greatly benefit from being put first with Nathan and then Sylar. Even the scenes between him and Thompson work quite well, not to mention the genuine rapport he seems to have with Molly.
(and while one can argue about the storytelling choice to make Niki a stripper, I do like how this episode as other early ones make it clear that she’s not even remotely buying into that kind of fantasy, treats it as business and, as she says to Ando, the self she presents to earn her living is not her – and she’s not talking about Jessica)
I greatly appreciated that as well, although I found Niki's easy dismissal of Ando as non-threatening a little disturbing. We as the viewers are supposed to see Ando as a sleazy but ultimately harmless, and we have do evidence for that image even at that point of the story, but for her he is still a guy who is more or less stalking her, and especially since this directly affects Micah as well I found her reaction a little too nice.
Re: Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 02:58 pm (UTC)I will continue with this then.*g*
Some of us may even have entertained the idea that he was really Future Sylar in disguise. *whistles*
Really? Never thought of that, but yes, I can see why.
Especially considering how popular Future Hiro was among the fans. It would have been very easy for the PTB to make him out as this cool, great warrior, and they didn't. Same as with Future Peter, naturally, who may be badass, but has ultimately lost a lot of what makes Regular Peter human.
Yes. In many ways the anti Frank Miller choice. *geeks out with comics reference*
Did they notice fairly early that his storyline didn't work out - and I think it didn't, especially in connection with the voiceovers of excessive boredom
Oh yeah. I really didn't miss those and groaned a little when they were back at the finale, though I can see why. Whereas Malcolm McDowell doing the voiceover in .07% was fine by me.
...anyway, I suspect it was a matter of actress availablity AND noticing this ultimately didn't go anywhere, and they needed to find something else for Mohinder.
We as the viewers are supposed to see Ando as a sleazy but ultimately harmless, and we have do evidence for that image even at that point of the story, but for her he is still a guy who is more or less stalking her, and especially since this directly affects Micah as well I found her reaction a little too nice.
Hm, you're right, as she doesn't know Ando as we do - well, through his online chats, she knows him a little, but she has to think his persona there wasn't any more real than hers was - she should be more cautious.
Re: Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 03:43 pm (UTC)Fantastic!
Really?
Really. I just figured that Sylar had to be someone, especially after they introduced Candice, and either Future Hiro or Future Nathan made the most sense. I certainly knew that they would replace Nathan somehow, as I have read Days Of Future Past, and after seeing his lovely painting of the Oval Office, I was reasonably sure that Sylar would kill Candice and Nathan in 5YG at some point (and of course I got confirmation for that in his very first conversation with Matt. Grr.).
Yes. In many ways the anti Frank Miller choice. *geeks out with comics reference*
I only know a few of his works from the 80s (Daredevil and The Dark Knight Returns, mostly), as I find his views on women a little irritating, but he does go very much for dark and desperate men who do what they have to do, right?
Oh yeah. I really didn't miss those and groaned a little when they were back at the finale, though I can see why. Whereas Malcolm McDowell doing the voiceover in .07% was fine by me.
McDowell's was okay, and not as worded in such a cringeworthy way, IIRC. As for Mohinder, I hope they just brought it back to come full circle and leave it be from now on.
Re: Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 08:25 pm (UTC)Ah. I hadn't read Days of Future Past and only got suspicious when he was all over Mohinder, because that's just not Nathan, evil or not.*g* Plus of course
...and you're right, Future Hiro would also have worked, but like I said, this never occured to me.
he does go very much for dark and desperate men who do what they have to do, right?
Very much, and yes, that was what I meant.
Re: Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 08:51 pm (UTC)Ack! I was sure you had! Sorry for spoiling it...
Re: Part One
Date: 2007-05-31 05:06 pm (UTC)She could have been wrong, of course, if Ando weren't Ando; I'd rather have had some kind of follow-up of her remembering this incident in the following days and worrying about more contact from him, but I guess she was a wee tiny bit preoccupied by the rest of her insane life.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-31 01:49 pm (UTC)The moment Linderman reveals he’s not so much part of the “normal” world as he’s the pullstringer in the superpowers one, that confidence is lost.
I'm forever grateful that you and also
I’m not sure whether all those scenes of him reading her mind are supposed to read as creepy as they do, instead of sweet.
I definitely think they were going for sweet here, seeing that Janice later is only mildly disconcerted with the idea that Matt is reading her mind, and, given that she mostly isn't portrayed as a good wife, I was wondering if we were meant to read her disapproval as a flaw rather than a natural reaction. It's something that I find a little alarming, especially in connection with the aforementioned dismissal of Ando's stalkerish tendencies, and Sandra Bennet's rather sunny reaction to her regular mindwipes at the hand of her husband. The writers don't seem to be all that attuned to these rather creepy vibes (or they think that forgiveness is a general trait a female character should have in spades).
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Date: 2007-05-31 03:04 pm (UTC)Did you ever read The Talisman by Stephen King and Peter Straub? If so: I'm thinking Richard? If not: by now I wonder whether Nathan didn't see some disturbing display of superpowers by his parents as a child by accident, and was told it didn't happen, and repressed it so much that the whole superpowers thing has a level of disturbing similar to relations committing suicide for him. At any case, I think he gets gradually more at ease in some situations - notably with Hiro, of course, - but by and large, displays keep freaking him out (see his reaction to Isaac's paintings when he visits the studio the second time), and Peter rising from the dead of course just heightens that.
and Sandra Bennet's rather sunny reaction to her regular mindwipes at the hand of her husband. The writers don't seem to be all that attuned to these rather creepy vibes (or they think that forgiveness is a general trait a female character should have in spades).
I'm afraid you're right there. Until they give us some angry Sandra now that the immediate threat is gone, I will be disgruntled about this.
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Date: 2007-05-31 03:30 pm (UTC)I did, but that was roughly sixteen years ago, so I don't remember much of it. (Is it worth rereading?)
by now I wonder whether Nathan didn't see some disturbing display of superpowers by his parents as a child by accident, and was told it didn't happen, and repressed it so much that the whole superpowers thing has a level of disturbing similar to relations committing suicide for him.
It would certainly explain why he is so adamantly opposed to them, to a degree that surpasses his nominal Agent Scully role by far. It's also a good explanation for the rigorous measures he has put into place in 5YG to keep the superpowered humans in check (because as much as I would want to, I can't see Sylar coming up with an idea like "outlawing breeding.").
Besides, if his parents really had an active time of superheroing it's very likely he noticed it in some way, and it would be very ironic if they accidentally managed to mess up their "designated leader" so that he would end up completely dismantling everything they wanted to achieve.
Until they give us some angry Sandra now that the immediate threat is gone, I will be disgruntled about this.
Agreed. I want her back, but I also want to see some disgruntlement between her and Noah because of this.
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Date: 2007-05-31 08:34 pm (UTC)because as much as I would want to, I can't see Sylar coming up with an idea like "outlawing breeding.").
Oh, I can, because Sylar wanted to eliminate the competition by any means possible. This being said, I do think Nathan in the 5YG universe was responsible or co-responsible (he can't have become President immediately after the catastrophe, after all - my own guess is that he ran as VP candidate during the elections in 2008 and later got to be president because the original incumbent died/was killed by Linderman, which means it can't have been sooner than 2009 and probably was later, as it would have looked mighty odd if the President had died during his first months in office) for a lot of the legislation, such as registration, internment of those who refused to register or were deemed dangerous, etc., which would fit with what he tells Simone he'd do.
Agreed. I want her back, but I also want to see some disgruntlement between her and Noah because of this.
Yes. And no leaving him of the hook because "it was all for Claire". He signed on for work with the Company before Claire, and agreed to terms like the ones resulting in mindwipes for his wife.
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Date: 2007-05-31 08:48 pm (UTC)Agreed on the first point; however, since they emphasized that it was a law that forbade specials to have children, I suspected Nathan/the administration he worked for to be responsible for this rather than Sylar, who doesn't strike me as being the type to actively forge laws.
The timeline: I suspected that Sylar had killed Nathan shortly after he had become VP; definitely not earlier, and I don't think much later.
And no leaving him of the hook because "it was all for Claire". He signed on for work with the Company before Claire, and agreed to terms like the ones resulting in mindwipes for his wife.
Exactly. Neither should the words "it was for your own good" fall without repercussions, or I'll feel forced to write a strong-worded letter.
Btw, your idea about Nathan having seen something disturbing in terms of super powers as a child has left me with an insane plotbunny featuring Hiro meeting our merry bunch of first generation heroes, and more importantly, little Nathan. The thing is... I'm not used to plotbunnies, never mind crazy ones. What shall I do with it? You don't happen to know someone who might give it a home?
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Date: 2007-06-01 06:55 am (UTC)Same here. (Not much later because of all the security around both a VP and even more a P.) And it's the timeline I used for my Sylar pov.
And no leaving him of the hook because "it was all for Claire". He signed on for work with the Company before Claire, and agreed to terms like the ones resulting in mindwipes for his wife.
Exactly. Neither should the words "it was for your own good" fall without repercussions, or I'll feel forced to write a strong-worded letter.
We should make a list of this!
Btw, your idea about Nathan having seen something disturbing in terms of super powers as a child has left me with an insane plotbunny featuring Hiro meeting our merry bunch of first generation heroes, and more importantly, little Nathan. The thing is... I'm not used to plotbunnies, never mind crazy ones. What shall I do with it? You don't happen to know someone who might give it a home?
Argggh! Get it away from me! You billain! BILLLAIIIIINN!
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Date: 2007-06-01 11:53 am (UTC)Brilliant idea. Some sort of "twenty things Noah Bennet is not allowed to use as a rationalization for his treatment of his wife." (similarly we should make a list of "fifty things Sandra Bennet and Heidi Petrelli are allowed to do to their husbands without suffering legal consequences.")
Argggh! Get it away from me! You billain! BILLLAIIIIINN!
*cackles*
Seriously, I would try it myself, but I haven't really written anything really big and fictional for at least three years - and I have no idea how to write kids. I mean, sixteen year old Nathan? No problem at all, but six year old Nathan is somewhat hard to imagine. I guess Peter's existence is pretty vital to get a remote idea of the character.
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Date: 2007-06-01 06:14 pm (UTC)Oh yeah. I was planning to write a Heidi pov post season in which she has it out with Nathan about just about everything, but now I can't as long as his status is still unclear. As soon as I know when he'll be in the proper state for her to chew him out, I still intend to do it. Meanwhile, lists! Which you could make, given that you've now set a plot bunny on my heels. So you owe me.
(Though I have beaten it back so far by writting two little ficlets about something else which are currently beta'd.)
Anyway, for good old Noah, so far, we have:
1) "I did it all for Claire."
2) "I did it all to protect you."
I'd add: 3) "The Company I used to work for stood for something, but it has been corrupted." (Noah, dude, when I heard you say that I thought: I distinctly remember Thompson asking you whether you'd be ready to kill your wife, if necessary, 14 years ago, so don't give me the "it used to be so much better"...)
Your turn!
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Date: 2007-06-01 06:41 pm (UTC)That is a great idea, because if I have to read another fic where Heidi is either a screeching harpy or someone who thinks that Nathan is a fairy prince, I will have to stab myself. She deserves better representation than that...
Which you could make, given that you've now set a plot bunny on my heels. So you owe me.
It's my honorable duty to fulfil your wish, of course. *cheers bunny on*
(Though I have beaten it back so far by writting two little ficlets about something else which are currently beta'd.)
Oh, but it's a resilient little thing, I've noticed. (Will Hiro be just back from Japan and still wear the samurai uniform he'll doubtlessly acquire there? *is completely shameless*)
But, the list.
1) "I did it all for Claire."
2) "I did it all to protect you."
3) "The Company I used to work for stood for something, but it has been corrupted."
4) "I didn't know the Haitian's power could physically harm you." (because honestly, he had to know that. She had symptoms, and even Matt had symptoms, so everyone else they used this on would have likely shown some sort of negative reaction as well)
5) "Lyle is still young, this certainly wasn't harmful for him."
6) "But I only used it when you saw something unusual concerning Claire or other superpowered people, never when it would have been otherwise convenient."
7) "The mindwipes were never the easy way out instead of telling you what was going on."
8) "You may have been scared every time I send a strange man into your house, but he always made you forget that, too."
9) "This isn't a sign that I don't trust you enough, or that I'm emotionally distant from you." (This one could pull double duty for Nathan and Heidi, in fact.)
10) "I didn't prefer using the mindwipes instead of talking to you only because I was afraid that you would leave me if you knew the truth."
A little break before the next ten...
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Date: 2007-06-01 07:13 pm (UTC)Absolutely. Incidentally, my next rewatched episode entry will be Nothing to Hide and contain Heidi praise. Also, she is in the fic I just posted, albeit only in one segment.
Damm you and your image of Samurai!Hiro appearing to Kid!Nathan.
And love, love, love the list. It must be posted on your lj once it's done, so I can link it. It keeps changing, but my momentary favourite is:
"But I only used it when you saw something unusual concerning Claire or other superpowered people, never when it would have been otherwise convenient."
Sure, Noah, sure....
And yes, 9) definitely can do double duty!
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Date: 2007-06-01 10:44 pm (UTC)Very good! And yes, I saw that. Must comment in a few secs.
Damm you and your image of Samurai!Hiro appearing to Kid!Nathan.
Hee. I never knew I'm this good at inspiring people. *ponders about founding an agency for muses*
And love, love, love the list.
Thank you! Incidentally, here is the rest. (http://wee-warrior.livejournal.com/19073.html)
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Date: 2007-06-02 04:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-31 02:15 pm (UTC)What? Oh, no. Bad, bad idea. Where will I get my fix? :-)
When after my eighteen episodes marathon I started to look for fanfiction, I wondered where all the Peter/Mohinder came from, until I recalled that yes, they had some scenes in the early episodes.
Oh yes. The Peter/Mohinder contingent is still very loyal. I read the post you referred me to at
And it’s to the credit of the show that this transformation was never presented as something desirable, but as something to be prevented.
*nods* One of the things I love most about this show is that it's so earnest and sincere and idealistic--particularly in a society where cynicism and skepticism are seen as being more "cool."
Arguably Claire, Hiro and Peter are the most “innocent” characters of the first season, and two out of three would know what it is like to kill someone before the season is over.
You know, it never even occurred to me that Peter *hasn't* actually killed anyone yet. Which in one way is strange, given that he has so much power, and in another way isn't, because it's *Peter*. (OTOH, I wonder if he would have killed if Nathan had been threatened in the same way Ando was. I'm thinking he would have.) I hope that the writers find a way for these characters to progress in Season 2 while preserving their innocence.
It’s a sad fact the Peter-and-Isaac scenes come across more interestingly than the Peter/Simone scenes, but there it is.
Oh, yes. Santiago and Milo had *way* more chemistry together than either of them did with Tawny. Sad, but true. I loved their scenes together in this episode. "Don't answer that. Some Japanese guy keeps calling me." Heh.
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Date: 2007-05-31 02:52 pm (UTC)*g* It's stylish fun.
You know, it never even occurred to me that Peter *hasn't* actually killed anyone yet.
Not in the current time line, but I think it's safe to assume 5YG Peter has (other than those .07%, I mean). And it shows, just as it does with Future Hiro. Consider their decision not to freeze time during their rescue mission so they can fight the guards. (Which among other things will almost certainly result in a few deaths.) Because they feel like it. The current versions would never be capable of this. As our Hiro tells Ando: Future Hiro has forgotten that killing should never be easy. And I think Future Peter as well.
Which, of course, reemphasizes the point: this future might look "cool", but is bad for the characters on every level.
OTOH, I wonder if he would have killed if Nathan had been threatened in the same way Ando was. I'm thinking he would have.
Yes; if he was convinced Nathan would die otherwise, he'd have killed.
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Date: 2007-05-31 03:54 pm (UTC)It really is. And I think it was a conscious decision on the part of the writers to make Peter and Hiro the killers at the frontline in 5YG--that was what sold me on the idea of a dystopian future, even in the space of a few short scenes.
That's what gives me hope, really, that they're not going to lose the innocence and hope of this season (at least, not completely). The writers know that it's a bad thing.
Yes; if he was convinced Nathan would die otherwise, he'd have killed.
I think he would have, but they dynamic is somewhat different from Hiro-Ando, since Peter is never in the position of being Nathan's caretaker.
It's interesting looking back on Nathan's early scenes, which depict him as being *much* more morally ambiguous than the 2nd half of the season. I hope they don't make him too much of a white had in the 2nd season--his moral greyness is one of the things I enjoy most about him as a character, even while I think he's being an utter bastard.
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Date: 2007-05-31 08:45 pm (UTC)Um, except for the part where he contemplates going along with Linderman's schemes and not doing anything to try and save .07% of the world's population? Because that is far darker thing than the speech in ep 3, adultery or accepting money from mobsters (before we learn he's simultanously working with the FBI to put said mobsters into jail). Mind you, you could argue he actually does all the later whereas he ultimately did not do the former, but the Petrellis are Catholic boys. If you think about it, it makes you somewhat guilty as well.
But anyway, to your point - I do think they'll leave Nathan in shades of grey if he survives. I mean, I don't think they'll let him go so near the Dark Side again soon (not after something so monumental as the finale), but every day shady behaviour, that's different. For one thing, if his political career is over, I don't think he'll react well. (Being ready to sacrifice your life is different from having live a life completely different from everything you ever hoped for, and lost hopes usually don't bring out the good side of people.) If it isn't, and he can still continue as Congressman, then he'll soon be in positions where he has to choose between the right and the expedient thing to do all the time, and he is a pragmatic. Then there's his marriage with Heidi; by now, she has every right to rip off his head, because he lied to her (or kept secret) far more important things than the one night stand with Niki, to wit, the flying, all things superpowers, the Linderman plan, Claire's entire existence, and somehow I doubt he said goodbye to her and the boys before taking off to save Peter, either. So will he come clean or will he try to go by by "economical truths" some more? Etc.
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Date: 2007-05-31 09:03 pm (UTC)I think there would be a reasonable possibility that his career is indeed over, since the fact that he won the election through fraud is somewhat obvious. He was last one before, and now he won by 64% percent, and most of the votes came from one specific voting centre - that looks suspicious at the very least, and if someone investigates this they'll likely find out that the results were influenced. Which would probably not only mean the end of his career, but also jail time.
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Date: 2007-06-01 07:00 am (UTC)(And one of my pet annoyances, which is people saying "Baltar stole the election from Roslin" - when the genius of the plot was that she, the good guy, stole it from him, that he, the bad guy, was the one who won legitimately and wouldn't believe she'd so something like that when Zarek suggested it.)
Mind you, I don't think Micah's way of manipulating the net would leave traces, but still, if Nathan survives it would be reasonable if one of the second season subplots were dealing with his election getting investigated and him stepping down in order to avoid jail.
Though this reminds me of our discussion that Nathan doesn't actually know HOW Linderman got him elected, as no one ever told him about Micah's gift, including DL and Jessica when they visited.
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Date: 2007-06-01 11:45 am (UTC)Oh, I loved that. One of the things I adore about BSG is how they constantly let their characters do things that are questionable, but are believable decisions in their situation nonetheless. Which leads me to
And one of my pet annoyances, which is people saying "Baltar stole the election from Roslin" -
Er, I haven't the foggiest idea how anyone could interpret the situation that way. I mean, clearly she was the one who committed fraud, and everyone would have let her get away with it, too, if it hadn't been for poor, idealistic Gaeta. Baltar won legally; that has nothing to do with his personality, nor the fact that he inadvertently helped the Cylons to almost completely erase his people, and has been trying to run from that responsibility ever since.
Though this reminds me of our discussion that Nathan doesn't actually know HOW Linderman got him elected, as no one ever told him about Micah's gift, including DL and Jessica when they visited.
He still knows that something had to be going on and that he didn't win by himself. Of course, I have no idea if that would lead him to step back from the election, or if that situation will even arise, since even though people might get suspicious you definitely have a point with Micah probably not being traceable.
Of course, since Niki and Micah both know what Micah did to help him, they might present him with some sort of personal obligation to do something useful with his position... (All that aside, I tend to agree with
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Date: 2007-06-01 04:26 pm (UTC)Of course, since Niki and Micah both know what Micah did to help him, they might present him with some sort of personal obligation to do something useful with his position...
That's true. Also, in my ideal scenario which I'm almost certain won't happen on the show, though in 5YG Niki at least owns the bar in Vegas, Niki uses all the stuff she and DL found in Linderman's secret vault to take over the Corinthian and becomes the new player in town.*g*
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Date: 2007-06-01 06:10 pm (UTC)That would indeed be awesome. But they very likely won't go there, given how far they normally go to protect Niki's integrity. Maybe if Jessica takes over again... provided she isn't gone.
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Date: 2007-06-02 04:46 am (UTC)Weirdly, I was just thinking that the discovery of the mutants may be what keeps Nathan in office. Provided that the full extent of Peter's powers isn't known (or he's somehow incapacitated), I think the realization that they need someone on their side in Congress could keep Nathan there, despite a possible desire on his part to confess to the election fraud.
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Date: 2007-06-01 07:23 am (UTC)Which goes back to the idealistic world view of the writers. The system may suck and be broken, but they want to tell the story of a politician fighting against it, not being part of the problem.
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Date: 2007-06-01 11:27 am (UTC)That's a very interesting idea. My thought was that they'd mostly give him the amnesia to let him rediscover the powers in a drastically different way - and to play with the opposites, surely, since if there is a character who could reasonably have to start at the bottom again, it would be Nathan, both for his station in life and for what he was willing to go along with. Of course there is the old question whether it's really possible to atone for your sins if you don't remember what you've done in the first place, but still the situation has quite a lot of the king being forced to live among his subjects, and, presumably, benefitting from it in some way, which would tie in with your idea. (And last not least, keeping Nathan away will of course be tremendously important for Peter's development, one way or the other.)
Which goes back to the idealistic world view of the writers.
This is seriously odd for me. I mean, not only is my own worldview only a tad more positive than that of Rob Thomas (if you've seen Veronica Mars, you'll know what I mean), I think that the writers propose something that is extremely hopeful even for Hollywood standards. If they show you a scenery and say: "Look! Cute, fluffy bunnies!" you could almost believe their first thought isn't selling them to you...
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Date: 2007-06-02 04:46 am (UTC)Heh, that too. I really think there are a lot of fantastic opportunities in giving Nathan amnesia. He can define himself without the obligations or expectations of being a Petrelli -- which is wonderful thematically for a storyline that hinges on the secrets of the elder generation. We'll see just how important their secrets and manipulations really are. It's almost like a twin study! Nathan is the unaware control (having no knowledge of their parents), and Peter is the experiment (discovering all the manipulations for the first time)! Ohh, the psych geek in me can't wait. :D
I think that the writers propose something that is extremely hopeful even for Hollywood standards.
Oh, they definitely are. For a while now "realistic" versions of comics have always been cynical, and while I appreciate that good writing dictates that if you put a character in an impossible situation, you shouldn't let they get out of it with a wink and a nod and a moralizing speech, it's even better writing to find a way to solve the impossible situation with everyone's morals intact (not that I don't love stories about the ethical cost of saving the world; I really, really do).
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Date: 2007-06-02 07:18 pm (UTC)Me, too, which is why I'm desperately hoping the rumour is true, and am ridiculously excited about this turn of events (yeah, and that would be the first time that I've been excited about fictional amnesia since Data lost his memory due to radioactive rocks, or whatever that was).
He can define himself without the obligations or expectations of being a Petrelli -- which is wonderful thematically for a storyline that hinges on the secrets of the elder generation.
Two things that I've been wondering about in relation to this, unfortunately completely unconnected: one, if they can or even want to retain at least some of his moral ambiguity or if that is so connected to his dependence on his parents and/or father figures, that he will develop into a completely different direction (hopefully more headed towards Bennet territory than complete white hat level) once he is free both of them and of his ambitious powerplay environment.
And two, whether he could have relevant information about the elder generation's ostensible connection to next season's storyline/Big Bad.
If that is someone the elders actually had contact with (and I think that is possible, given they are supposed to be sketched out more) Nathan is probably the only one of the younger people who could have noticed something, given that he was both already born and connected to them when that likely happened, and given how incredibly forthcoming the elders are with information, that could indeed be useful.
It's almost like a twin study! Nathan is the unaware control (having no knowledge of their parents), and Peter is the experiment (discovering all the manipulations for the first time)! Ohh, the psych geek in me can't wait. :D
Maybe they should have built the spinoff around that idea...
while I appreciate that good writing dictates that if you put a character in an impossible situation, you shouldn't let they get out of it with a wink and a nod and a moralizing speech, it's even better writing to find a way to solve the impossible situation with everyone's morals intact
Like
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Date: 2007-06-03 04:48 am (UTC)If it were any other show, and any actor but Adrian Pasdar, I'd be running for the hills, but I'm really excited for this. (And I totally know the ep you're thinking of. I thought it was one of their probes that crashed and he was retrieving it? Hmm, I kinda remember it beign a crash that made him lose him memory.)
one, if they can or even want to retain at least some of his moral ambiguity or if that is so connected to his dependence on his parents and/or father figures, that he will develop into a completely different direction (hopefully more headed towards Bennet territory than complete white hat level) once he is free both of them and of his ambitious powerplay environment.
I think they'll have to keep at least some of it if they insert him back into his previous situation. It'd be interesting to see where the compromises have to come in and how he deals with giving up his new found moral center. (And whether he depends on Peter again to be his conscience, or isn't allowed that crutch.)
If that is someone the elders actually had contact with (and I think that is possible, given they are supposed to be sketched out more) Nathan is probably the only one of the younger people who could have noticed something, given that he was both already born and connected to them when that likely happened, and given how incredibly forthcoming the elders are with information, that could indeed be useful.
That's likely, because they do love playing with characters having mistmatched pieces of info, but incredibly frustrating sounding.
Maybe they should have built the spinoff around that idea...
Heh, well, apparently, they are going to have some repeat powers (probably in Origins), so they kinda are going to do that. Show us how different people react to the same powers, at least.
(And most interestingly, also directly opposite to Heroes direct TV competition 24, where heroism does mean that you have to cut off all emotional ties and become jaded and cynical, because otherwise everything will go to hell in a handbasket.)
There was actually a Salon article about that!
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Date: 2007-06-03 12:13 pm (UTC)You are correct. Apparently it is called "Thine Own Self," and it's a Season Seven episode. I thought it was much older. Oh well...
I think they'll have to keep at least some of it if they insert him back into his previous situation. It'd be interesting to see where the compromises have to come in and how he deals with giving up his new found moral center. (And whether he depends on Peter again to be his conscience, or isn't allowed that crutch.)
It really depends on what they're planning to do with him. I suspect that the original plan was to have the character exit at the end of Season One (soul saved, catastrophic future averted, blahblah) and let Peter grow from the experience, but if they keep him around (and seriously, it would be kinda dumb if they didn't) they have to develop the relationship beyond their current dynamic, since if Peter continues playing Nathan's External Humanity (I think the External Conscience duty may have gone over to Claire) both of them will stall as characters. Empathy being a good thing in this universe aside, I still think Peter needs to achieve more self-esteem and the ability to think and act for himself, without his brother as a crutch, and the same goes definitely for Nathan where something resembling emotional responsibility is concerned. Both of them are far from independent and keeping them apart might be a good opportunity to slowly change that. Which I would love. Nothing is better than characters going on quests! (Even figurative ones)
That's likely, because they do love playing with characters having mistmatched pieces of info, but incredibly frustrating sounding.
Oh, I bet there will be lots of gnashing of teeth, and howling, and sighs the likes of: "People, why don't you just talk... oh, wait, you're 300 years away, you have lost your mind, and you have no idea that something's going on because no one remembered to call you and keep you up to date. Right. Arrrgghh!"
There was actually a Salon article about that!
Ohhh. Do you have a link by any chance?
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Date: 2007-06-03 12:49 pm (UTC)Huh, I was thinking it was earlier, too. It seemed like a fifth season ep to me.
I suspect that the original plan was to have the character exit at the end of Season One (soul saved, catastrophic future averted, blahblah) and let Peter grow from the experience,
I agree. I think, since Nathan's character arc was over the entire season (as opposed to partitioned in thirds as just about everyone else was), that they probably intended to kill him for real. And then they realized how much they'd suck if they did that, and reconsidered.
Empathy being a good thing in this universe aside, I still think Peter needs to achieve more self-esteem and the ability to think and act for himself, without his brother as a crutch, and the same goes definitely for Nathan where something resembling emotional responsibility is concerned.
Well, and empathy is better if there's more of it, so Nathan needs his own internal conscience.
Both of them are far from independent and keeping them apart might be a good opportunity to slowly change that. Which I would love. Nothing is better than characters going on quests! (Even figurative ones)
I wouldn't bet on it being very slow. I think they are both going to get traumatic, fast crash courses in how to live without each other. Although, of course, it can't be complete, because they still need to be dysfunctional and crazy. It's just no fun without Petrelliangst to mine.
Oh, I bet there will be lots of gnashing of teeth, and howling, and sighs the likes of: "People, why don't you just talk... oh, wait, you're 300 years away, you have lost your mind, and you have no idea that something's going on because no one remembered to call you and keep you up to date. Right. Arrrgghh!"
We're going to need charts to keep track of who knows what and why they haven't told anyone else. :/
Ohhh. Do you have a link by any chance?
Yep: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/05/30/heroes/
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Date: 2007-06-03 01:46 pm (UTC)Pretty much. I suspect my source is wrong... didn't Wesley Crusher leave in Season 4? They list his last episode as being part of Season 7 as well.
Although, of course, it can't be complete, because they still need to be dysfunctional and crazy. It's just no fun without Petrelliangst to mine.
Oh, I'm sure there will be enough of that. I mean, first Peter will be destroyed because he thinks that he killed Nathan, then, when he discovers that he didn't, but that Nathan didn't even remember him, they'll both be angsty because of that, and everything will be kind of awkward, and as soon as they are halfway past that, something will happen that will stir things up all over again.
We're going to need charts to keep track of who knows what and why they haven't told anyone else. :/
I actually kept lists in the end... the most amusing thing is that several characters still know things others have no clue about. For instance that Kaito was likely involved with the Elder Americans - neither Hiro nor the Petrellis know that. I think Peter has the most overview over who was part of the conspiracy, while Nathan, Claire and Hiro likely have the most background information that they actually went superheroing together (without really knowing who "they" really is). Nathan is as far as I know the only one apart from his mother (and likely Kaito) who knows that his father had a power and was in some way involved in the conspiracy. Niki and D.L. (if he lives) are the only ones who know that the Company didn't just bag and tag, but might have had an actual breeding program. Bennet is the only one who knows that Claude is more than just a bum Peter met on the street. And I'm sure there is more.
Thanks for the article, that was a very interesting read!
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Date: 2007-06-05 01:12 am (UTC)Um, except for the part where he contemplates going along with Linderman's schemes and not doing anything to try and save .07% of the world's population?
What I meant by "morally ambiguous" is "lack of clear moral code" rather than "leaning towards morally bad". There are some characters who do bad things, but in their minds, they have a set of moral principles. In the 2nd half of the season, I saw Nathan as just such a character, and could see very clearly that for him, Peter > Nathan > Rest of family > Rest of the world. So I could begin to predict how he would behave in a given situation.
I knew he would refuse Linderman's offer in a heartbeat if he thought Peter would die. Similarly, I knew he would be tempted if he thought Peter would live.
In the 1st half of the season, I was much less certain of which way Nathan would swing, faced with a choice. Does he value Peter more than his career? Does he value his principles more than money? When he comes to bail Peter out of his scrapes, is that love for his brother, or just damage control? That's what I mean by "morally ambiguous"--not that he's good or bad, necessarily, but I wasn't sure that he even *had* a moral compass.
But anyway, to your point - I do think they'll leave Nathan in shades of grey if he survives.
I hope they do. And I hope Hiro will find out eventually that Nathan wasn't a "Billain" after all. You know, I'm somewhat saddened that Season 1 Hiro and Season 1 Peter will never meet. You just know they'd drive Nathan crazy.
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Date: 2007-06-02 04:55 am (UTC)I find it interesting that Peter is in a medical profession, yet specifically set up not to be a healer. His job is watching people die, which is either a product of his really rather strange view of death (he's never seemed particularly afraid of dying to me), or created it. So I'm not really sure how he'd react to the idea of killing someone.
Killing millions of innocents in an explosion he couldn't control is fairly different from personally killing Sylar would be, so I don't really think we can use Future!Peter as a barometer. With that scale of destruction, I think Peter tended to think of himself as the apocalypse (especially given the aftermath) rather than a murderer.
With Sylar, he must have known at Kirby Plaza that the end game was killing Sylar, and while I think they would have shown some kind of hesitation or reaction to killing him if it'd gotten that far, it's interesting that Peter's main concern was whether he could actually win, not if he could live with killing Sylar.
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Date: 2007-06-02 08:06 am (UTC)Hm, you're right, that's intriguing. Presumably he could have become a doctor, if he had wanted, but he went for the nurse thing instead, and then specifically chose hospice. I'm tempted to assume he didn't want to become a doctor because that would have been the same as becoming a lawyer in his father's eyes, and he really didn't want his job choice to be approved; or do you have another guess?
As to the chicken and egg question of his view of death - hmmm. Right now, I'm going with "job created", if only because I don't think Peter ever saw anyone dying before that.
he's never seemed particularly afraid of dying to me
Considering Isaac painting him looking very dead in front of Claire's school didn't result in more than "Yay! Now I know where the cheerleader is!", I'd say you're right, even before he gets Claire's gift. Otoh, he's certainly horrified and scared by the prospect of exploding and killing people en masse. (As one would be.) Question, though: when Claire challenges him about why they need Nathan, and Peter replies "because I'm afraid, okay? And I need my brother ", what is he afraid of? Facing Sylar again and being unable to defeat him? That Sylar now has Ted's powers? The situation in general?
At any rate, as opposed to Hiro, who verbalizes the "can I kill?" question with Ando, you're right, Peter doesn't list this about his worries at any point. And yet, I can't see him applying his "death can be beautiful" view to something outside of the natural death situation. (BTW: good thing he never said that to Ted, who saw his wife dying of radiation...)
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Date: 2007-06-02 12:16 pm (UTC)I think that's probably the biggest part of why he chose nursing instead of becoming a doctor. The amount of time involved in becoming a doctor was probably up there too. I think Peter probably wanted to be done with being a student. And docotors have more distant relationships with patients -- that does make me wonder, though, if he'd had bad experiences with doctors. Maybe about Daddy Petrelli's "heart attacks"?
Right now, I'm going with "job created", if only because I don't think Peter ever saw anyone dying before that.
Unless his family had more mob ties than we thought ...
I do think there must have been the seed of a weird reaction to it in him, though, because it seems very much rooted in his empathy. He cares more about the grief of others than the fact that he is confronting his own mortality. Without working as a hospice nurse, and seeing the commonalities, I don't think he'd have that really weird speech to Simone, though. (Not that he's not right. It's just that I can't get over how insane he sounds.)
Question, though: when Claire challenges him about why they need Nathan, and Peter replies "because I'm afraid, okay? And I need my brother to help us", what is he afraid of? Facing Sylar again and being unable to defeat him? That Sylar now has Ted's powers? The situation in general?
Of fucking it all up, I think. Peter's the screw up of the family, so he's got to run to Nathan ("most likely to") to know how to not screw up. Especially since, as opposed to Homecoming, it all hinges on him. He thinks he has to kill Sylar and keep control of himself so he doesn't nuke NYC -- I think the fact that he's passively a threat just by being in the city scares the hell out of him. Peter can't control himself, so he wants someone else to control him. So he runs to Nathan.
I really wonder how much of his inability to control his power is based in a fear of being independent. I mean, part of it is simply that he feels deeply, and it's harder to control the powers when emotional, but Peter has a lot of self-image issues. He's the baby, the screw up, the one who has to be rescued, so he can't quite become the powerful independent hero he ought to be. Not 'til next season, anyway.
And yet, I can't see him applying his "death can be beautiful" view to something outside of the natural death situation.
Not unless we ever get a Dark!Peter. ;)
(BTW: good thing he never said that to Ted, who saw his wife dying of radiation...)
The emo sensitivity is good for something!
no subject
Date: 2007-06-02 12:55 pm (UTC)Even then I doubt it. I've read The Godfather, after all; no killing in front of the kids as long as they're still kids, and never at home. *g*
Without working as a hospice nurse, and seeing the commonalities, I don't think he'd have that really weird speech to Simone, though. (Not that he's not right. It's just that I can't get over how insane he sounds.)
Peter Petrelli: sang the M.A.S.H. theme song once too often in karaoke at college...
Peter can't control himself, so he wants someone else to control him. So he runs to Nathan.
I spy another Niki parallel. She keeps wanting someone else to take over control out of fear of herself and circumstances, too - Jessica, prison, and oh, Nathan via punching her out in Parasite, and it's not until Jessica gives control to her that she manages to integrate and step up to Hero-dom.
In the case of Peter, it occurs to me that his relationship with Claude is also an attempt to give someone else control, only Claude skeedaddles, so that's that. The interesting thing is that he simultanously has the rebellious youth thing going on with Dad. So what makes being controlled by Nathan more acceptable than being controlled by Dad was? That with Nathan, Peter knows it's mutual in as much as he knows which buttons to push when he really wants something from Nathan (whether or not he believed Nathan when the later said "I don't know who I'd be without you")?
I really wonder how much of his inability to control his power is based in a fear of being independent.
I think he both fears it and once it - I mean, clearly he wants it to some degree (own choice of profession, "it's my turn to be someone now, Nathan!", the whole signing on the special/destiny train), but he definitely wants it in a way that doesn't come with the loner status traditionally associated with independence. Which brings us back to the empath thing again, and Peter as someone who brings people together. He definitely doesn't want to be Claude. Which is why 5YG Peter is so lost before Hiro shows up with a chance of team up and redemption, and even 5YG Peter is in a codependent relationship all over again, with Niki, soothing and feeding each other's pain.
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Date: 2007-06-02 02:53 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly! I wonder what this does to the chances for present timeline Peter/Niki ... if they qre intentionally being paralleled, that implies the writers want them to compare notes, at the very least, at some point.
In the case of Peter, it occurs to me that his relationship with Claude is also an attempt to give someone else control, only Claude skeedaddles, so that's that.
Yep. Peter's very much got a type for the kind of people he wants in his life -- strong and domineering. We even got a tiny, tiny hint of that from Simone in the finale. Her little "come here, paid help" gesture was totally what made Peter fall for her.
So what makes being controlled by Nathan more acceptable than being controlled by Dad was?
I think it's a lot of things. Peter knows Nathan loves him. Peter trusts Nathan. Peter knows Nathan is stable (unlike Dad). I think the mutuality, like you say, is a big factor, too. Peter doesn't want to be owned, he wants to be the center of someone's universe. With Nathan, he is, and if that means Nathan tells him what to do, then that's fine. The fact that he can get Nathan to give him whatever he wants and barely has to work to avoid expectations he doesn't want to live up to makes it that much sweeter. It's the best of both worlds for him.
And, of course, that's why it absolutely has to end. His codependency on Nathan is a crutch and a disability. They have to become equal partners, somehow.
I mean, clearly he wants it to some degree (own choice of profession, "it's my turn to be someone now, Nathan!", the whole signing on the special/destiny train)
Oddly, I do think jumping on the destiny train was another way of giving up control. He follows the prophecies, follows the plan, and he doesn't have to make decisions for himself, yet gets to be special anyway. Too bad the prophecies are so vague. Hmm, this is another reason why they should have dream/nightmare related villain (or have Peter temporarily lose his powers). Without his dreams to guide him, Peter would actually have to make decisions for himself.
Which is why 5YG Peter is so lost before Hiro shows up with a chance of team up and redemption, and even 5YG Peter is in a codependent relationship all over again, with Niki, soothing and feeding each other's pain.
Even badass!future!Peter just sort of drifts without someone to order him around.
How Peter's ultimate subbyness has not made it into smut yet, I have no idea.And he always just falls into unhealthy relationships -- he really strikes me as a male version of the usually female character who simply can't handle not being in a romantic relationship at all times.no subject
Date: 2007-06-02 03:55 pm (UTC)Again, it all depends on DL survival! And it would be one way to make sure Niki doesn't get separated from all the other storylines again.
Yep. Peter's very much got a type for the kind of people he wants in his life -- strong and domineering. We even got a tiny, tiny hint of that from Simone in the finale. Her little "come here, paid help" gesture was totally what made Peter fall for her.
She's domineering in their early scenes in the show as well. And ever since checking those out again for my story, I can't over the fact his very first pass at her looks like this:
SIMONE: You're like a son to him.
PETER: Well, then, that would make us like brother and sister. Might be a little awkward if I ever wanted to ask you out.
(She turns and looks at him. It’s an awkward moment.)
PETER: I'm sorry. That was, uh, that was inappropriate.
Well, yes, Peter. What else is new?
And there's him saying "I'm not going anywhere" when the next conversation they have is "I'm off to Texas!" and then he never contacts her again and only sees her once, stalking with Claude. Is this connected to Simone stopping to be domineering and following his lead with the superpowers thing, I wonder?
Peter doesn't want to be owned, he wants to be the center of someone's universe. With Nathan, he is, and if that means Nathan tells him what to do, then that's fine.
I think I mentioned this in another discussion before - with Nathan, he also knows he has no competition in the form of a person. There's politics and ambition, of course, but not an individual, and if he ever doubted that if push comes to shove, he'd win over ambition, the season finale sort of settled that.
The fact that he can get Nathan to give him whatever he wants and barely has to work to avoid expectations he doesn't want to live up to makes it that much sweeter. It's the best of both worlds for him.
And, of course, that's why it absolutely has to end. His codependency on Nathan is a crutch and a disability. They have to become equal partners, somehow.
Well, if they get separated for the first episodes by one being amnesiac and the other believing he's dead, presumably that will have them both learning things they lack so far, and after reuniting it could put their relationship on another level, with their post-Peter's-temporary-death conversation being foreshadowing of that, because that was Peter being calm, and Nathan admitting vulnerability.
How Peter's ultimate subbyness has not made it into smut yet, I have no idea.It hasn't? He's the bottom in nearly all the stories I've read.And he always just falls into unhealthy relationships -- he really strikes me as a male version of the usually female character who simply can't handle not being in a romantic relationship at all times.
Of course, to a degree the universe he lives in supports this because the ability to love is seen as a crucially important trait, and isolation as a bad choice.
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Date: 2007-06-03 01:15 am (UTC)And, as much as I like DL, it would be well worth the sacrifice to have the Sander family plot actually go somewhere and connect up with the other plots Being that Micah was specifically engineered by Linderman, they ought to connect up with the Petrellis (especially if Claire and Peter were engineered), but you never know.
And there's him saying "I'm not going anywhere" when the next conversation they have is "I'm off to Texas!" and then he never contacts her again and only sees her once, stalking with Claude. Is this connected to Simone stopping to be domineering and following his lead with the superpowers thing, I wonder?
I think the thrill was definitely gone for him between the mixed messages about Isaac and her unwillingness to commit. If Simone had been less ambivalent -- less someone he had to take care of -- he would made a big show of making a farewell while saying he was endangering her. As it was, though, I think he actually was still letting her take the lead. It's just that the lead, from what he last saw, was backing off and taking it slow, so he knew he couldn't lay all this on her. He never did get around to telling her that he had a power, after all.
and after reuniting it could put their relationship on another level, with their post-Peter's-temporary-death conversation being foreshadowing of that, because that was Peter being calm, and Nathan admitting vulnerability.
That's definitely where I think they'll go. It's nice to know in advance that it's a good dynamic.
How Peter's ultimate subbyness has not made it into smut yet, I have no idea.It hasn't? He's the bottom in nearly all the stories I've read.I mean in an actual BDSM sense. It seems like Peter could actually live his life in a sub/dom relationship day to day and be perfectly happy with it.Of course, to a degree the universe he lives in supports this because the ability to love is seen as a crucially important trait, and isolation as a bad choice.</>
Oh no! Their entire universe is enabling his dysfunction! D: