The Whys and Wherefores of 'Shipper Wars, and some Sylvia Plath news

[selenak]

The other day, a friend of mine wondered in which fandom the 'shipper wars started. She brought up the peaceful days of Highlander fandom, until I reminded her that while there were no 'shipper wars per se, there were wars about anything to do with the Horsemen episodes, Methos, Cassandra and Duncan. This didn't illuminate us as to where the 'shipper wars started, though - does anyone have any idea? I know that Voyager fans were dreadfully upset about the never-quite-canon 'ship of J/C, but since I'm mostly a TNG and DS9 fangirl as far as Star Trek is concerned, I'm not sure whether there were ever wars between followers of different relationships.

In the Harry Potter fandom, there are, I believe, wars between Ron/Hermione and Harry/Hermione believers, but those seem to be confined to the Sugar Quill. Meanwhile, the lj world is more into slash and inflicting Draco Malfoy or Severus Snape (who is fascinating, but really no material for romance, leaving aside the entire student/teacher squick which is a big one for me) on any of the above anyway. And the Remus/Sirius'ship appears to be uncontested, though the imp of the perverse (pace, E.A. Poe) makes me want to point out we have more canon evidence for James/Sirius every time I see someone proclaim that "theirloveissocanon". At any rate, HP isn't old enough as a fandom to have started 'shipper wars.

The reason why there are so many of those in the Jossverse is, imo, that as opposed to, say, Farscape, or Babylon 5 for that matter, the source text itself offers various compelling relationships instead of just one. I mean, season 4 of Farscape might have dillusioned some people about John/Aeryn, but as far as I can see J/A'shippers still dominate the fandom, and why not? Farscape has never offered another romantic relationship for either John or Aeryn with the same kind of build-up and narrative space. And while you might regard, say, John/Chiana or Aeryn/Crais (until the later's death) as possibilities, there never were serious expectations the show would actually go there.

Whereas in BTVS, and to a lesser extend AtS, the shows themselves offer various possibilities. Buffy/Angel might have been the uncontested (by the show's narrative) pairing for these two during the first three seasons, but then first Riley and later Spike got equal screentime to the departed Angel in scenes with Buffy, and at least the Buffy/Spike relationship got a longer, more detailed development. Meanwhile, on AtS, the Angel/Darla relationship was fleshed out via flashbacks and present-day storylines to a degree that enabled viewers to make a plausible argument that, in retrospect, Angel's relationship with Buffy was partly still all about Darla. Xander/Cordy got less screentime than Xander/Anya. Willow/Tara got slightly more than Willow/Oz. And those are only the relationships actually consumated on screen; then there's the entire subtexty fun of Buffy/Faith, for example. Or the relationships presented as strong and close though not romantic, which nonetheless are compelling enough for some viewers to wish for a romantic interpretation as well, such as Willow/Xander or Buffy/Xander, or Anya/Giles. With some many possibilities presented in the primary text, I suppose it was inevitable that conflict would arise in the fandom.

I'm curious how my theory works in other fandoms, though. Can anyone think of a fandom with 'shipper wars, with a movie/show/book as their canon source material which doesn't present various pairings as equally valid to begin with?

Speaking of fannish wars, they have nothing on the decades old-controversy on anything to do with Sylvia Plath. John Brownlow, the scriptwriter of the biopic Sylvia which will open this fall, put it this way in an entertaining article he wrote about the process of creating the script: "The Plathites and the Hughesites were involved in a feud of the order of Godzilla vs Mothra." The entire article, Who's afraid of Sylvia Plath, is here, and the trailer for Sylvia can be seen here.

The marriage of Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes does make for a compelling, dramatic story, and I love them both as poets, but watching those first images of the movie, playing out some iconish imagery from their lives (their first meeting which SP described in her journal and TH in one of the Birthday Letters poems, for example), made me feel uneasy in a way I never did with, say, a film about Elizabeth I (though I'm even more interested in and partisan of her). The former feels intrusive in a way the later does not. I wonder whether the temporal distance makes all the difference?

Lastly, for X-Men aficiniados: a superb vignette about Mystique here.

Comments

[wychwood]

I'm curious how my theory works in other fandoms, though. Can anyone think of a fandom with 'shipper wars, with a movie/show/book as their canon source material which doesn't present various pairings as equally valid to begin with?

Trying to think... there are Ent shipper wars (mostly about Archer/T'Pol vs Tucker/T'Pol, but also endless slash discussions about Archer/Tucker vs Tucker/Reed vs Archer/Reed vs Reed/Mayweather...) but the slash ones don't really have any canon evidence, while the het ones both have moments.

LotR arguably has some pairs which are better supported in the text (although I don't think JRRT intended them) - Frodo/Sam and Legolas/Gimli, for instance. I don't know if that leads to wars with the Frodo/Aragorn, Gandalf/Frodo, Aragorn/Legolas, Boromir/Legolas etc shippers, though.

But LOTR...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...does not support rival 'ships. The book, at least. I don't think anyone saw, say, Aragorn/Boromir or Aragorn/Legolas before the movies.

In any case, I'm not sufficiently familiar with LotR message boards and the like to judge whether there are shipper wars.

Interesting about Enterprise. The het rivalries at least seem to support my theory...

Re: But LOTR...

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the conviction that a deep friendship must also involve a romantic and sexual commitment leads to vehement and irrational hatred for poor Rosie Cotton... who probably doesn't care a whit, actually.

(And the H/Hr R/Hr shipper wars are not just on the Quill. Try FictionAlley Park. The debate thread is on round 50something, I think. This is where we have people demanding indignantly, "Are you telling us we're reading the books wrong?" and the even more mind-boggling denial, however, not to mention essays on how Ron is supposedly abusive and one really strange guy who claims to "be" Harry in personality. So maybe you shouldn't.)

OMG!

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

We had a guy turn up on a Buffy/Angel board I frequent who claimed to be undergoing some kind of cross-dimensional mind-meld with Angel. To the point of opening his own detective agency. And people who suggested that he seek medical help were accused by him and other posters of being judgemental and disrespecting his lifestyle choices...

Re: But LOTR...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the conviction that a deep friendship must also involve a romantic and sexual commitment leads to vehement and irrational hatred for poor Rosie Cotton... who probably doesn't care a whit, actually.

Since I tend to view Rosie as monkeycrackmary writes her, I agree she wouldn't care about the silly fangirls.*g* But yeah, Rosie-bashing is annoying. Though I have to say so far what entries I did see were not going into diatribes against Rosie; instead, poor Tolkien was the victim for "breaking Frodo and Sam up".

not to mention essays on how Ron is supposedly abusive
The mind boggles. Now I'm feeling in Vir (=Babylon 5 character) mode: What is the matter with you people? ("You" not meaning you, obviously.)

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

I've had odd feelings just reading about their lives, so I think I understand. Time could be the issue, do you mean that their lives are more similar, and so feel closer to ours?

Time is certainly an issue...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...it's just easier when you know the people in question died a century or thousands of years ago. But Hughes died only a few years ago, and their children are vehemently opposed to any fictional rendering of their parents' lives. Which I suppose I understand - I'd hate it if it were my parents, too. Moreover, such disasters like anything penned by Paul Alexander aren't exactly encouraging.

Otoh, the ruthless writer in me recognises a good story when she sees one, and certainly all the essentials are there. In any case, I see one severe problem with the movie - Frieda Hughes hasn't given permission for the use of either of her parents' poetry. Now if you want to tell about the lives of two poets without quoting at least some of what made them different from Mr. and Mrs Smith in the neighbourhood, you have a problem...

Re: Time is certainly an issue...

[angeyja.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree on both those points. I know I'm odd in this way but I find knowing about the artists life can be a two edged sword. Not necessarily Plath but I've had artists that became more difficult for me after I read about them. Perhaps, it's simply that I had a hard time with their lives coloring their work and narrowing the enjoyment.

The shipper wars were a shock to me when I first became aware of the Buffy communities and also the way some people would write about the different characters. Just the different ways we all watch the show. BYOS Bring your own subtext.

P/C and P/Q didn't have wars so much as we sniped at each other. :-)

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

Which, given the relationship of our respective love interests for Picard to each other, is strangely fitting. :-) Actually, no, the P/Q shippers and the P/C shippers in TNG mostly got along fairly well and in fact some people wrote both pairings. (Though I'm not sure anyone ever seriously wrote both into the same story-- there was a PWP with that as the concept, but given that there were other serious stories where Picard's relationship with Q was non-exclusive and included a wife who *wasn't* Crusher, I wonder why not.)

There were serious shipper wars in 1997 in X-Men fandom between fans of Rogue/Gambit and fans of Rogue/anyone who wasn't Gambit. Characters Rogue had an interest in who weren't Gambit-- particularly Magneto and Joseph-- were bashed horribly by many Rogue/Gambit writers, leading to many fictional retaliations in which Gambit got bashed.

Sniping would make sense for Beverlites and Qties *g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

No, seriously, it's good to know there were no real wars. Back when TNG was broadcast I wasn't online yet and thus wouldn't know.

Both ships in one story: well, I can't see it, either. A threesome with, say, Vash, yes (actually I think Vash wouldn't have said no to a threesome with Beverly, either), but with Beverly, no. Considering Beverly found the sex-change in Odan too much to handle and has her own complicated backstory of unspoken feelings from Picard while Jack was still alive, I can't see her going for any kind of relationship where a third party is involved (either Q or Vash).

That X-Men war sounds like the kind of thing I was talking about, which alas is all too common in Jossverse fandom. I don't think it happened wit strictly movieverse X-Men fans yet, or did it? Rogue/Wolverine movieverse 'shippers seem to get around the Rogue/Iceman canon by declaring Rogue a wild girl who finds Bobby too tame (and declaring Bobby to be longing for Pyro anyway). But I haven't seen a counterattack by Rogue/Iceman 'shippers yet (do they exist?).

Re: Sniping would make sense for Beverlites and Qties *g*

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

Actually most online TNG fandom didn't occur until the series was over. Online fandom kicked off for Trek in about 1992, and TNG went off the air in 94, so there wasn't that much overlap. Most P/Q wasn't written until about two years after TNG went off the air.

I can see your point about the relationship not working-- I'm just kind of surprised no one has ever tried to pull it off, given some of the bizarro stuff we *have* seen (at one point P/Q bdsm became such a cliche that P/Q writers who *weren't* doing bdsm had to disclaimer their work "there is no bdsm in here, not that there's anything wrong with it.") I'm also kind of surprised no one has ever tried the premise "Q hits on Beverly to get her away from Jean-Luc" given that that's exactly what he did with Vash (and, according to my SO, the best explanation for his behavior toward Lwaxana in Peter David's Q-In-Law. :-)) I mean, this wouldn't *work*, but few people expect all of Q's tactics to work. I've seen people write him matchmaking for Crusher and Riker (which would have made sense if it had been a P/Q story, actually, but it wasn't-- Q was just supposed to not have a clue), fall in love with Crusher without reference to Picard (hint: he turned her into a dog. Not going to fall in love with her anytime real soon), but not attempt to set up a threesome, try to hit on her to get her out of the way, or any of the other silly tactics I might expect. :-)

The shipper war in X-Men fandom is between "Logan/Rogue 4Ever!" and "Eeuw! Logan/Rogue is pedophilia!" It's really more pro and anti a given pairing rather than pro one pairing and pro another. I did see some happydances on the part of Rogue/Bobby shippers that they are now canon, but yeah, lots of people all over the Bobby/St. John thing. (And there are in fact X-Men Movieverse Rogue/Gambit shippers. Despite the fact that Gambit has not yet appeared in the movieverse. :-))

[hobsonphile.livejournal.com]

I don't know how this fits into things, but there are occasional wars in the Stargate SG-1 fandom between the Sam/Jack 'shippers, the Sam/Daniel 'shippers, the Daniel/Jack slashers, and the anti-shippers (a group that includes yours truly). Sam/Jack is the only relationship that has ever been explicitly canonical, but I think cases could be made for the other pairings.

I am an anti-shipper for two main reasons. Number one, as a Navy-brat, I don't see Sam/Jack or Daniel/Jack as realistic if the "don't ask, don't tell" and "no fraternization" issues are not seriously addressed. Number two, I've always felt that the show was at its best when it focused on the team. When SG-1 made the Sam/Jack 'ship canonical, the team dynamic suffered.

Of course, this is just IMO. *g*

Having seen only a few episodes of Stargate...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...from the third season or so, I think I agree with you.

Can't say I know where it started

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

. . . but the ship wars were a pretty big deal in XF, back in the day, from what little I remember. I didn't frequent the boards, but Gossamer is where I first even learned the term ship. And in XF shipper referred only to M/Sers - as I'm sure everyone in the universe knows. Who wasn't an X-Phile, after all? But, again, what I saw wasn't Mulder/Krycek vs Mulder/Scully. It was MSR vs. everyone else.

I think you have a good point about the BtVS/AtS turmoil in ships - that it is based off of canonical screen time, text, and subtext given to all the characters. Of course, I always thought that was why there *wasn't* strife. Everyone can read what they want into the show, so everyone is happy. But that probably isn't true for the Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike contingents. Still, it isn't like HP where almost all you have is subtext and personal interpretation.

Heh. And can I just say I did a huge double take up there, reading the TNG? See, the fandom I wrote the most in is called Trigun, with a main character named Vash. And *he* would never be caught in bed with Picard *or* Q. Nonetheless, there was unhappy shippiness in that fandom. 'Nother subtext-based, personal interpretation sort of battle - except the sides were in a cold war. The VashxMeryl shippers played on their side and had fun and the VashxWolfwood shippers played on their side and wrote derisive fic and mocked the VxM shippers and claimed the moral high ground as VxW is yaoi and there fore superior. Anyone who doesn't like it is a homophobe. Yeah, I'm still bitter.

Re: Can't say I know where it started

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Of course, I always thought that was why there *wasn't* strife. Everyone can read what they want into the show, so everyone is happy.

You'd think so. But no. And it's not just B/A versus B/S, believe me. I remember when W/T became official - endless rants from Willow/Oz'shippers. And I remember the strange sense of fannish entitlement displayed by various factions - "Joss owes us this, Joss owes us that". For example, before I stopped lurking at the BC&S because of all the acid, there were long threads from the B/X faction about how every other ship got their moments on screen (including W/X, during season 3's clothes fluke period), and that ME "owed" them a Buffy/Xander romance.

Oh, and as for AtS: during the third season, there were endless anti-Fred diatribes by Wes/Gunn slashers, the venom of which you wouldn't believe...

Oh, and also:

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Heh. And can I just say I did a huge double take up there, reading the TNG? See, the fandom I wrote the most in is called Trigun, with a main character named Vash.

Now Trigun is unfamiliar to me, but multifandom girl that I am, I did encounter the "name" thing -Wesley Crusher/Wesley Wyndham-Pryce, for example. John Crichton/John Sheridan. And a friend of mine drove me mad by consistently spelling the B5 character Londo "Lando", because of Lando Calrissian. Thankfully, the names in SW and HP for the most part are unique...

and claimed the moral high ground as VxW is yaoi and there fore superior. Anyone who doesn't like it is a homophobe.
Arggh! This kind of thing drives me crazy, too. I like some slash pairings. I like some het pairings. The extremes - either "all slash is of the devil" or - "anyone who can't see a slash pairing is a bigot/homophobe/narrow-minded/ec." are apallingly similar in their fanaticism.

Lastly: tolerance to all pairings has its exception. Naturally, all Obidala'shippers are of the devil, because of distortion of no less than three canon characters.*g*

Re: Oh, and also:

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

Heh. And what I mostly remember about the W/T confirmation was the extreme "told you so" I gave to my best friend who swore up and down that they were just friends. Maybe it's me, but for some reason I've always ascribed to the idea that shipping is about what you you like and has very little to do with canon. So, whining about ship airtime is pretty ridiculous. And B/X? Should never be argued for on the basis of W/X, since that was a characterization disaster for three of the four participants.

I think I saw some of the Fresley venom, but I thought that was more on the part of Wes-fans and Weslah shippers than Wes/Gunn shippers. And I can't say it was entirely undeserved. Ruining the Wes/Gunn friendship through Fresley and sidestepping that entire betrayal issue really sucked and nearly annihilated the likeability of both Fred and Gunn for half a season.

Oddly, the name crossover doesn't usually bother me. Possibly because I always call Wesley Crusher "Wussy" and Wesley Wyndham-Pryce "Wes" and pronounce TNG's Vash with a long A while Trigun's gets a short A. Alas, this really only works in conversation. Thank heavens, for the (mostly) unique character names in SW. No one can get confused about which Anakin I'm talking about.

fanaticism Heh. I giggle at the irony, not the sentiment. But fanaticism is usually where fandom starts caving in on itself.

Absolutely right on Obidala. It is of the devil, infringes on at least three characters, and undermines the philosophical basis of the universe. "Oh, he didn't turn because a life of slavery, politcal manipulation, or destiny. It was because his wife was a ho."

Re: Oh, and also:

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think I saw some of the Fresley venom, but I thought that was more on the part of Wes-fans and Weslah shippers than Wes/Gunn shippers.

Nope. The Fred bashing started in the third season, and Wesley didn't become involved with Lilah until the last three episodes of the third season. (Didn't even meet her one to one before then; didn't sleep with her until the season finale.) Weslah 'shippers objected to Wesley's ongoing Fred obsession in the fourth season, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Ruining the Wes/Gunn friendship through Fresley and sidestepping that entire betrayal issue really sucked and nearly annihilated the likeability of both Fred and Gunn for half a season.

I never had problems liking Fred. Gunn, yes, but not Fred. Which is why I honestly didn't get the third season Fred bashing. Of all the people at AI, Fred was the one who behaved best in regards to Wesley. She tried - successfully - to find out why he did what he did in "Forgiving". She did what I had expected Cordelia to do - visited him in the hospital and yelled at him. (Thus exhibiting both concern and anger, and you know, Wesley wasn't entirely blameless - there was reason for anger.) She tried to make the others see reason about Wesley in every single remaining episode of the third season. (That was when I lost all sympathy for Cordy - when Fred said "but imagine what Wesley must be feeling right now" and Cordy replied "The only feelings I'm concerned about are Angel's".) So, dislike for Gunn? By all means. Dislike for Cordy? Absolutely. But Fred? No. Yet who got blamed? Fred.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

Hmm. It seems to me that full-scale, all-out shipper wars are most likely when both pairings have a reasonable chance of becoming canon; for example, Harry/Hermione vs. Ron/Hermione, or Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike (where both relationships *are* canon, but presumably only one gets a happy ending). I understand that there were shipper wars in Star Wars between Luke/Leia fans and Han/Leia fans before Return of the Jedi came out, for the same reason.

I think slash vs. het shipper wars happen less, simply because everyone on both sides accepts (except possibly in the Jossverse) that the slash 'ship won't ever be canon. It's not a threat to the het shippers in the same way that a competing het ship would be, and the slashers are usually fairly philosophical about working around their guys' canonical relationships with women.

Of course, the silliness of full-fledged shipper wars of any kind is the apparent belief that fan belief in Harry/Hermione somehow threatens the chances of Ron/Hermione becoming canon, or vice versa. (Substitute the battling pairings of your choice.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that full-scale, all-out shipper wars are most likely when both pairings have a reasonable chance of becoming canon

That makes sense. Though...

Of course, the silliness of full-fledged shipper wars of any kind is the apparent belief that fan belief in Harry/Hermione somehow threatens the chances of Ron/Hermione becoming canon, or vice versa. (Substitute the battling pairings of your choice.)

Exactly. I mean, to an extent I can understand the rationalisation of this belief when we're talking about ongoing TV shows, because obviously ratings can be an influence. At the same time, there are a lot of counterexamples. From what I can see most Smallville fans seem to rant every other week about the show's emphasis on the Clark/Lana relationship, but this apparently doesn't stop the producers from promoting it in every other interview.

And: I can't see JKR writing one iota different because of pro/anti Harry/Hermione or Ron/Hermione postings. So what purpose do 'shipper battles serve, ultimately?

[penknife.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I mean, to an extent I can understand the rationalisation of this belief when we're talking about ongoing TV shows, because obviously ratings can be an influence.

I'm not even sure this is true--ratings are such a blunt instrument. All they can tell the show's producers is "we did this, and people started watching; we did this, and people stopped watching." I'd argue that the vast majority of people involved in shipper wars are so invested in the show that they're going to keep watching no matter what, if only to yell at the screen and throw popcorn.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

What a great post! (I followed the LJ "friend of a friend" breadcrumb trail here).

Coming relatively late into the BtVS online fandom I missed the B/A vs. B/S brouhaha. But the "my vampire is better than your vampire" wars have been endlessly entertaining. It has been my opinion that the wars seem reach a fever pitch during summer hiatus, with this summer being particularly bitter due to 1) the end of BtVS and 2) the prospect of Spike on AtS. As a fan of both shows, I'm thinking I win all around.

However, I had to comment (and friend) due to the Plath/Hughes comments. Now this is a war that puts all others to shame! I've been mesmerized by their poetry and personal story for years. After reading endless biographies, journals and letters I've come to the conclusion that their relationship was just elastic enough to project whatever relationship drama the reader wished upon them. It's like they say about the bible - give me an hour and I'll prove or disprove anything based on scripture.

I can't wait for the movie although I simply can't imagine how it will come across without using any of their work - it was the core of their relationship.

Welcome!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Now this was a war to put all others to shame!

Quite. Never mind the Spike vs Angel furors - between people like Paul Alexander or Robin Morgan on the one hand, and the ever vigilant Olwyn Hughes on the other, you get the bloody feud to end all feuds.

I've been mesmerised by their poetry and personal story for years.
Me, too. And I can't imagine how you separate one from the other, either. I always was glad then when TH finally did "go public" about SP, it wasn't in a TV or newspaper interview, which would have been trivial and cheap, but via poetry. Doesn't mean that his view of their relationship is the alpha and omega, but among so many other things, it's the tribute of a poet to a poet, and I think she would have appreciated it.

Maraudershipping

[hmpf.livejournal.com]

>And the Remus/Sirius'ship appears to be uncontested, though the imp of the perverse (pace, E.A. Poe) makes me want to point out we have more canon evidence for James/Sirius every time I see someone proclaim that "theirloveissocanon".

And that would be a hindrance to the canon-ness of R/S how...? ;-) (Yes, I know, we've *been* there. But really. Yes, there's evidence of J/S. But there's also evidence of S/R, and why should that be mutually exclusive?)