Things Who

[selenak]

Whovian results from my England trip:

1) Claws of Axos. I've seen better Third Doctor adventures, though the Master is fun as always in the Delgado incarnation, and I find it somewhat amusing that everyone but Jo is entirely willing to believe the Doctor would run away with him. (I wonder why.) (Oh, and this bit of dialogue sounds eerily like Ten rather than Three: Jo: "So, the Master is trapped as well?" Doctor: "Absolutely. Well, with 90% certainty." (The Brig and Jo give him a look.) "Well, there is a chance he could have gotten away.")


2) The Dalek Invasion of Earth. Hands down the best of the First Doctor adventures I've watched so far. Good old Terry Nation and his dystopias. The Daleks themselves are still a work in progress, not yet the "classic" version, but closer to it than in their first appearance, but as Nation-written dystopias go, Earth under Dalek rule can compete with his later stuff on both DW and Blake's 7 quite nicely. (Speaking of B7, the moment when Barbara and Jenny meet the old and younger woman, I had an immediate deja vu to Duel, of course, and was half expecting ther older one to be called Sycorax.) The First Doctor is far more Doctor-ish than in An Unearthly Child or The Daleks, and there is a lot of meaty character stuff if one wants to tie this first incarnation to those written decades later; I'll get to that in a moment. Of course, early 60s sexism is quite obvious, what with Barbara being asked immediately whether she can cook when they join the rebels and Susan being put on cooking duty with her rebel branch as well, not to mention all that took about wanting to put down roots as a woman's destiny, BUT, and it's a big "but", Barbara gets such a lot of screentime and is so incredibly awesome throughout that I'm handwaving that right now. Barbara driving a truck through the Daleks is as awesome as Ace taking one on with a baseball bat. And her intelligence and having the good ideas ability is consistent.

Sidenote: the Doctor's interaction with Barbara and Susan throughout the story reminded me of my vague theory that the two spawned two models of future companions; Martha follows the Barbara model while Rose is the Susan model. Barbara of course was already an adult when she met the Doctor (as Martha will be), and he treats her like an adult. Susan he loves dearly, but he makes the big decisions for. (It often gets overlooked, but he did that twice to Rose, both as Nine and as Ten, sending her away against her own choice in the respective season finales; this being the early 21st century, of course, Rose is allowed to do something about it instead of being left stunned as poor Susan.)

I know the meta reason for Susan being left was that the actress wanted to leave, but from a Watsonian instead of a Doylist perspective, the fact that the Doctor locks her out of the TARDIS and leaves her "for her own good" because he knows she would never have left him is fascinating because it both ties with a conversation Susan has earlier with David in which he calls her travelling-with-the-TARDIS-lifestyle "running away all the time" and with Tenth Doctor's "oh, I ran... and I've never stopped" from Sound of Drums. So you have Susan falling in love with a human and feeling conflicted; still, is leaving her behind a selfless gesture (ignoring that post-Dalek invasion Earth isn't exactly the best place to start a new life, and that she hasn't even known David that long, not to mention that Gallifreyan biology will pose a problem in the long term), or does he do it because he's secretely afraid he either won't be able to do it later, or that she would leave him by her own choice later after all? In any case, his goodbye to her is going to set a pattern for that kind of thing: first he locks her out of the TARDIS (double-locks, the way the Master locks him out in Sound of Drums), then he gives her his goodbye message via broadcast. It's his choice, and he doesn't give her the chance to touch him or argue against it. And yes, he's running away.

3) One Doctor Who magazine, full of useful and/or funny quotes.



So, RTD regarding Martha: "I only completely made up my mind about Martha departing in the second half of last year. I knew that we'd never lose Freema, and that's why we've these plans to put her into Torchwood, and then to put her back into Doctor Who, cos there's no way we want to let her go. She's just brilliant. But also I want to see that character grow, which is the point of her making a break. I just realised what a trap she was in, and actually how I was still writing the story of Queer as Folk. The only way out of this story is to end it. It's suffering otherwise, to be in that permanent state of unrequited love. There is so much further to go with her now. (...) The Martha that you'll see walking into Torchwood, and then back into Doctor Who next series, is freed from her curse of unrequited love."

Shooting report from Last of the Time Lords, the death scene. Simm is John S, Barrowman is John B:

"David and John S give the scene their all, acting the socks of one another, and pummelling every last ounce of angst out of the script. It's moving to watch. 'Good death, good death,' says Colin after the take. 'We've just been intimate,' David states, as John B saunters up. 'Yeah, so I saw,' beams John B, and says something unprintable about the face that the Master pulled as he breathed his last."

On that note:

"Back in Vaynor Quarry, John S has filmed his final scene for today. 'When's the funeral?' he asks. 'Tonight,' David answers. 'We're waiting for you to leave, then we're burning your effigy.' 'The death of Vader!' chuckles John. 'Doesn't the Doctor push me out to sea?' 'No, that was in the old script.' 'Can we have Light My Fire playing then? asks John. 'Try now we can only lose/And our love become a funeral pyre...'"

And lastly, spotted today: one of David Tennant's endearing qualities is that he's such an unabashed Old Who fan. Behold more adorkable proof.

Comments

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Aw, he is so cute in that Time Lord clobber!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Isn't he just?

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

I find DT far more adorable than Ten, largely because of the unabashed geek factor.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

Awww, their Time Lord pop-homoeroticism is so cute. I really do wish I had warmer feelings about this show, because the cast is so great. It makes me sad that I've started having the kneejerk negative reactions to the whole show that I do.

I think the Delgado Master could tempt just about anyone to leave with him, through sheer suave charm alone. Claws of Axos is goofy, but a good sort of goofy.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Claws of Axos made me feel for Katy Manning, having to wear a mini skirt when there's snow all around (and not fake one by the looks, either).*g*

'Twas a sad day when the Delgado Master had to turn to body-snatching, true...

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

At least they tended to keep her warm with the running. :)

I need a Delgado icon terribly. I think someone once found me a pic that I could turn into a bizarrely slashy het Master/Jo icon, and it was terribly tempting.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I did. (http://pics.livejournal.com/kalypso_v/pic/000bfq5g)

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

That is so hot.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

JB would have rude thoughts about the death scene. When he watches the story arc, I'm sure he'll fully appreciate the insane slashiness of the whole thing.

David in Gallifreyan robes--ZOMG GEEKGASM!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

JB would have rude thoughts about the death scene.

When I read the article, I thought: people, what do you mean "unprintable"? He probably just said what everyone online wrote as well.*g*

When he watches the story arc, I'm sure he'll fully appreciate the insane slashiness of the whole thing.

As I said: he'll really have to pull all the stops when JM shows up at Torchwood to compete with that one. And even then there's the problem of how to beat that much backstory and layers of a relationship.

...I'm thinking whoever said that the Master = Darla and that arc = season 2 of AtS is onto something...

[honorh.livejournal.com]

And see, by introducing the Jossverse element into the conversation, I've now gotten weird crossover pictures of Ol' Bat Face in my brain with David Tennant and John Simm with Julie Benz as Lucy. Quit confusing my fandoms!

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I so want to see a crossover featuring the Master and the Master. That would rock.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Will it include a hypnotizing contest? (The other one can do that, too, after all!)

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

It ought to. It most definitely ought to. :)

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

I'm watching all the Doctor's from the beginning and just finished "The Krotons". It's a fascinating trip watching the Doctor taking form.

Zoe is still a bit of an enigma. A very smart companion and able to take take of herself but was still required to do the screaming bit when necessary. There seemed to be quite a bit of waffling in the character.

Hopefully they'll straighten out Martha and they can have a "happy" season like they promised us. Let's hope Catherine knocks some sense into him before Martha returns...

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Barbara is made of awesome. She is, like, the original Made of Awesome companion. (Have you seen "The Aztecs" yet, by the way? Great episode, and it features Barbara at her awesomest.) And I do think you have something there in your idea about her and Susan as the original templates for the companions who would come later.

As for the Doctor leaving Susan... To be honest, I've always really resented him for that. I know his hearts were probably in the right place, and he really was doing what he thought was best for her, but, dude... If she's old enough to go off on her own and to marry, she's old enough to make her own damned decisions! And what a traumatic parting that must have been for her. Plus, what is she going to do if she changes her mind, doesn't like post-invasion Earth, wants a divorce? She's stuck in a situation she didn't even actually agree to! But, yes, the more you think about his actions there, the more they do seem to fit very well into a consistent, if somewhat dysfunctional, psychological whole. I think there's also some interesting resonances there with what I see, especially in the Ninth and Tenth Doctors, as a sort of internal conflict between envying and longing for a settled, domestic life, and being absolutely terrified of it. He makes the choice for Susan, that she'll have the kind of life he can't or won't.

It's suffering otherwise, to be in that permanent state of unrequited love.

Which is a good argument for not introducing that element in the first place. *rolls eyes* But it sounds like he perhaps understands that now, which is encouraging.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I once heard a rather enjoyable radio series of 15-minute monologues on "What Happened to [Fictional Character]?" Vague feeling that Little Lord Fauntleroy turned into a serial killer, but can't remember the details. Anyway, one of them was about Susan, who'd ended up working for the UN - or maybe it was the European Court of Human Rights. She said a lot of the staff there turned out to be stranded aliens. She also observed that their marriages to humans always failed, because they were no good at the sort of social lies required to ease themselves through.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think one of my storytelling issues with this season is that you really should not find half-way through the season that you've painted yourself into a corner you can only get out of by getting rid of the companion and rebooting her story. Ideally, you want to not get into that position in the first place - particularly when it was not a mystery this would happen with an unrequited love storyline.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ideally, you want to not get into that position in the first place - particularly when it was not a mystery this would happen with an unrequited love storyline.

True, though given that Davies wrote two entire seasons of a show with an unrequited love storyline, he might have been deluded on that front. (Disclaimer: I haven't actually watched Queer as Folk, but I take it one of the guys is in unrequited love with another one, based on fannish osmosis and Davies' own comments.)

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Yes, but that ultimately resolved itself in a way that Doctor Who simply does not have the option to do.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Atztecs: no, haven't yet.

I know his hearts were probably in the right place, and he really was doing what he thought was best for her, but, dude... If she's old enough to go off on her own and to marry, she's old enough to make her own damned decisions!

Oh absolutely. Also, as you say, what if she falls out of love again, which really is more likely than not given her age? Okay, so she also showed interest in the whole "rebuilding Earth" thing, which could work independently from her romance with David, but still.

Sidenote: "Jack has to stay to rebuild Earth" is the excuse the Doctor gives Rose for not taking Jack along. Iiiiiinteresting.

But, yes, the more you think about his actions there, the more they do seem to fit very well into a consistent, if somewhat dysfunctional, psychological whole. I think there's also some interesting resonances there with what I see, especially in the Ninth and Tenth Doctors, as a sort of internal conflict between envying and longing for a settled, domestic life, and being absolutely terrified of it. He makes the choice for Susan, that she'll have the kind of life he can't or won't.

Of course, we don't know how he ended up travelling with her in the first place, and what happened to her parents, so it might be that one of the reasons why he feels entitled to make that choice for her is that he's the reason she doesn't have the domestic life to begin with.

(Trivia: on the dvd, they have that "whatever happened to Susan?" radio broadcast K. is talking about below, which is very funny (with Jane Asher as Susan, btw), in the form of a mockumentary, and in it she says that clearly her grandfather ditched her in order to cavort with the young floozies he was hanging about with later, who would have thought twice about this with a granddaughter on board.*g*)

On a tangent: if one could say that the Doctor didn't fall in love with Gallifrey until it was irrevocably gone, perhaps Susan, once he made sure he had lost her, is what he looks for with the younger Companions like Jo, Ace and Rose (different as they all are from each other, they do share a teenage enthusiasm and adoration of the Doctor which is Susan), as opposed to ones like Sarah Jane, Harry or Martha - or even Jack, for that matter - , who fit more the Barbara template. It might also be why he's doing the unprecedented thing of basically proposing in that scene with the Master, because the Master is outside of any of these templates altogether and his own unique case.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

so it might be that one of the reasons why he feels entitled to make that choice for her is that he's the reason she doesn't have the domestic life to begin with.

I'm fairly sure that's true, actually, one way or another. But just because it might be reasonable for him to question whether it was a good thing for him to drag her into his unsettled and unstable lifestyle doesn't mean it's reasonable for him to dump her against her will on some post-apocalyptic planet without so much as a suitcase.

and in it she says that clearly her grandfather ditched her in order to cavort with the young floozies he was hanging about with later, who would have thought twice about this with a granddaughter on board.*g*

*snerk*

perhaps Susan, once he made sure he had lost her, is what he looks for with the younger Companions like Jo, Ace and Rose

I was going to say that while a Susan-substitute is clearly what he was looking for in, say, Viki, I'm not sure how true that still is as one goes increasingly many years down the road. But the more I think about it, the more I think it's at least reasonable to say that he liked having someone around who had that enthusiasm, who looked up to him and whom he could be protective of, and, consciously or not, tends to latch on to people who can keep providing him with that. In other words, yeah, you might be right. :)

It might also be why he's doing the unprecedented thing of basically proposing in that scene with the Master, because the Master is outside of any of these templates altogether and his own unique case.

Well, I think there are all kinds of complicated reasons behind that... The Master is interesting, though, because he's very much the Doctor's equal in terms of intelligence, knowledge, strength of mind, etc. The only person we've seen him travel with who can honestly be said to come close to that is Romana; even the most Barbara-esque of human companions are still, well, human. One could, I suppose, argue that the Doctor is at this point craving a partnership of equals -- in fact, it seems a fairly believable idea to me -- but of course, what he's proposing with the Master isn't that at all. It's more protectiveness, an "I'll take care of you for your own good" sort of thing. Heck, one could argue that it's the reverse of what he did with Susan: forcing the Master to stay with him against his wishes, for his own good. The Master, I think, actually has a point with all those accusations about the Doctor being a sanctimonious goody-two-shoes who knows what's best for everybody, or whatever it is he says. :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

But just because it might be reasonable for him to question whether it was a good thing for him to drag her into his unsettled and unstable lifestyle doesn't mean it's reasonable for him to dump her against her will on some post-apocalyptic planet without so much as a suitcase.

Indeed. I take it that in The Five Doctors, which I haven't watched yet, there is no follow-up on this when Susan meets him again?

Heck, one could argue that it's the reverse of what he did with Susan: forcing the Master to stay with him against his wishes, for his own good. The Master, I think, actually has a point with all those accusations about the Doctor being a sanctimonious goody-two-shoes who knows what's best for everybody, or whatever it is he says. :)

Ah, but imo it's even more complicated than that! For one thing, it comes directly after the Master forced the Doctor to stay with him for a year. Now I don't think the Doctor consciously thinks of it as tit for tat, but you know, we have no idea how Stockholm Syndrome works for Time Lords anyway, plus it does rather make the case for the Master wanting the Doctor around (on his terms, of course, but that's always the issue between them) in a totally dysfunctional way.

And then there's the practical problem of what to do with the Master, if killing him for good isn't an option. Put him in a normal prison, and he'll be out of same soon after and menace the galaxy some more. Now in theory the Doctor could do to him what he did with the Family of Blood, but in practice, no. Let's face it, he has a double standard there, and he couldn't do that to someone he cares about, no matter how you define "care".

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I take it that in The Five Doctors, which I haven't watched yet, there is no follow-up on this when Susan meets him again?

No, there isn't, which is something that's always rung rather false to me. There's one hug of greeting, and then it's just plot, plot, plot. You'd think after that kind of separation they'd at least want find a moment to talk! But it may be a good indication that perhaps he did at least make good on his promise to come back, and has seen her since.

Ah, but imo it's even more complicated than that!

Well, of course it is! It's an insanely complicated, deeply twisted relationship altogether. Which is why I love it. :) My guess, actually, is that it's not so much tit for tat as "here, let me take this terrible thing you did to me, turn it around, and make it a kind thing I do to you." The Doctor might see that as noble and fitting. I suspect the Master would view it as sickeningly holier-than-thou, and it's clear that he doesn't regard the Doctor showing him kindness as a kind thing at all. It's a bit of an open question whether the Doctor, consciously or otherwise, intends to inflict some measure of cruelty to the Master with his kindness... Personally, I think he's trying to cling to the vain hope that if he just forgives the Master enough and shows him enough care, eventually he'll accept it and be a better person for it. But then, I happen to see the Doctor as being pretty darned good at denial. :)

plus it does rather make the case for the Master wanting the Doctor around (on his terms, of course, but that's always the issue between them) in a totally dysfunctional way.

I don't think there's any real question of that. Hell, it's pretty nearly canonical. "A cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about." :) Of course, I suddenly realize that it was in "The Five Doctors" that he said that, and you've already mentioned not having seen that. But he does say it.

And then there's the practical problem of what to do with the Master, if killing him for good isn't an option.

It is hard to think what else he could have done. What's interesting, I think, is that his reaction isn't along the lines of, "Oh, goddamn it, now I'm going to have to devote my life to taking care of this jerk." It's "maybe it's time I settled down." He sounds like he's quite looking forward to it, really, and expects it to be personally fulfilling. Whether that says more about his relationship to the Master, specifically, or more about the fact that he's second-guessing his own lifestyle choices is, I think, open to debate. Personally, I think both are highly significant.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You'd think after that kind of separation they'd at least want find a moment to talk! But it may be a good indication that perhaps he did at least make good on his promise to come back, and has seen her since.

I noticed that in Curse of Fenric, the Doctor when asked whether he has family says he doesn't know, which would indicate at this point he's not sure whether Susan is alive or dead. I gathered via fannish osmosis there is a novel or short story stating Susan ended up leaving post Dalek Invasion Earth with the Master's TARDIS when he showed up there and during his usual menacing killed her husband, but as generally only what's on screen counts as tv show canon, that probably doesn't count. I'd like a story in which any of the later (i.e. post-Five) Doctors encounters Susan and they talk about his way of leaving her - is there something in fanfic?

Personally, I think he's trying to cling to the vain hope that if he just forgives the Master enough and shows him enough care, eventually he'll accept it and be a better person for it. But then, I happen to see the Doctor as being pretty darned good at denial. :)

To be sure. Also, presumably the fact that just giving up on the Master and letting him perish which he did as Five didn't work out so well, either, feeds into the "must try" impetus.

Question: if the Master had actually taken him up on his "we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want", just not on Earth offer in Sound of Drums - which is a very different thing from what he suggests in LotTL - would the Doctor have gone through with that? Because fighting across the constellations does not sound all that good for planets not Earth who happen to be in said constellations...

He sounds like he's quite looking forward to it, really, and expects it to be personally fulfilling. Whether that says more about his relationship to the Master, specifically, or more about the fact that he's second-guessing his own lifestyle choices is, I think, open to debate. Personally, I think both are highly significant.

Bearing in mind I only saw one of the Rani storylines - he probably would have suggested it for her or another Time Lord gone bad who survived the Time War, too, but I don't think with the same kind of, yes, looking forward to-ness, longing, whatever one wants to call it. Of course, this is after his stint as John Smith, and some of that unlived life John Smith sees shortly before giving it up probably is still having an impact, but nonetheless I think for a big part it's about the Master personally rather than a generic "member of my species plus just lost chance at domestic life" thing. Even if Rose somehow had come back (or for that matter any of the other old Companions except possibly Romana), and it would have been an either travelling with them or travelling with the Master situation (or however that "settling down" idea would have worked in practice), he'd have picked the Master.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I noticed that in Curse of Fenric, the Doctor when asked whether he has family says he doesn't know, which would indicate at this point he's not sure whether Susan is alive or dead.

Oh, that's a good point. Which is interesting, because the Doctor more recently seems to imply that he had family before the Time War and doesn't now. I imagine there are any number of ways to reconcile that, though.

The story you mention with Susan and the Master isn't ringing a bell for me... I'm notoriously bad about remembering things I've read after much time has passed, but I'd think I'd remember that one, so I probably haven't encountered it. Anyway, yeah, the books are dubiously canonical at best.

I'd like a story in which any of the later (i.e. post-Five) Doctors encounters Susan and they talk about his way of leaving her - is there something in fanfic?

I'm sure there must be, but I can't think of any. I've only started reading much in the way of Who fic relatively recently, though. If you do find one, let me know, because I want to read it too!

Question: if the Master had actually taken him up on his "we can fight across the constellations if that's what you want", just not on Earth offer in Sound of Drums - which is a very different thing from what he suggests in LotTL - would the Doctor have gone through with that?

I don't think he was thinking about it too carefully at the time... He just wanted to get the Master away from Earth. Exactly what would have happened next I have no idea, especially given that the Master was the only one with a TARDIS at the time. I'm sure the Doctor would have tried to stop the Master from rampaging against the galaxies or anything, but trying to keep him from doing that, well, would be "fighting across the constellations," I suppose.

Bearing in mind I only saw one of the Rani storylines - he probably would have suggested it for her or another Time Lord gone bad who survived the Time War, too, but I don't think with the same kind of, yes, looking forward to-ness, longing, whatever one wants to call it.

The Rani, I think, would have been an interesting and entirely unique case. If the Rani had survived, I'm pretty sure she'd already be cloning up Time Lords, and we might see the Doctor joining her rather than vice versa. Very different dynamic.

But, yeah, if it were Generic Evil Time Lord #3, I think you're quite right. He might have tried to do the same thing, but emotionally it would have been very different. He does care about the Master personally. They have a hell of a history, both as friends and enemies, and there have always been things about the Master that the Doctor genuinely appreciates and admires. There's a strong connection there. Twisted, but strong. There's also the fact that a lot (most? all?) of the Master's destructiveness seems to be aimed directly and obsessively at the Doctor, and that every time the Doctor defeats him that obsession seems to get a little crazier and a little worse. So the Doctor very probably views him as a personal responsibility, rather than just his responsibility by default as the last Time Lord.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Which is interesting, because the Doctor more recently seems to imply that he had family before the Time War and doesn't now. I imagine there are any number of ways to reconcile that, though.

To start with the most simple one, he met Susan again post-Fenric and pre-Time War, but yes, sure. (Presumably TPTB didn't want to commit themselves to the state of Susan's existence or lack of same one way or another back in the 80s? Or maybe it was just a convenient way of keeping the script from expanding, since if the Doctor had said "yes" the Vicar might have asked for details.)

especially given that the Master was the only one with a TARDIS at the time.

Which reminds me: since the Master must have ended up on the shores of the silver devastation somehow, he must have had a TARDIS. With a fully functioning chameleon circuit, one assumes, and of course as Yana he would have forgotten what it looked like. But in theory, it should still be out there, near the end of the universe.

There's also the fact that a lot (most? all?) of the Master's destructiveness seems to be aimed directly and obsessively at the Doctor, and that every time the Doctor defeats him that obsession seems to get a little crazier and a little worse.

rozk at the time wrote that the Master's actions in that final arc make her imagine the Master pondering of how he could possibly hurt the Doctor more than by anything he did in the past, and coming up with using the future humanity to enslave and kill the current one in the name of a new Gallifrey as a result... and that it reminds her of late season 3 Faith and Buffy on a cosmic scale because she had the impression that what the Master wanted as a result wasn't a defeated Doctor ad infinitum but the Doctor to strike back in an equally hurtful way. (Just not through forgiveness, of course!)

What I want to know is when this mechanism between them started, since I doubt it was when Three was exiled and the Master showed up on Earth.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

(Presumably TPTB didn't want to commit themselves to the state of Susan's existence or lack of same one way or another back in the 80s? Or maybe it was just a convenient way of keeping the script from expanding, since if the Doctor had said "yes" the Vicar might have asked for details.)

Or it was just put in to add (or highlight) a bit of mystery about the Doctor. Or was intended to pay off later as part of the master plan that never materialized because the show got canceled.

Which reminds me: since the Master must have ended up on the shores of the silver devastation somehow, he must have had a TARDIS.

I've been thinking about that, and I'm not sure that's actually a safe assumption. The Master didn't just run to the end of the universe, he ran to the end of the universe and stopped being a Time Lord, because he figured he was dead otherwise. But his TARDIS, presumably, did not stop being a TARDIS, and thus may well have been destroyed by the Daleks or by whatever the Doctor did.

the Master's actions in that final arc make her imagine the Master pondering of how he could possibly hurt the Doctor more than by anything he did in the past, and coming up with using the future humanity to enslave and kill the current one in the name of a new Gallifrey as a result...

I suspect there may have been a number of reasons why he settled on that particular plan, but I think that's definitely one of them. It is hard to think of anything that would hurt the Doctor more... other than the thing that he ultimately did, of course.

The Buffy-and-Faith analogy is interesting. And I think I shall have to ponder more on the idea that what the Master wants is for the Doctor to strike back. I think, actually, that that's been true to some degree for a very long time. For one thing, it's all sort of a game to the Master, really, and games are no fun if your opponent doesn't get to take his turn. For another, I've always had the impression that what the Master really wants is the Doctor's attention and appreciation, recognition of himself as a worthy opponent, etc... which isn't going to be forthcoming from someone who's dead or completely broken. It's also easy, in the case of the Simm!Master, to imagine that part of him wants to be punished or hurt... Beyond that, it's also occurred to me to wonder if perhaps the Master is hoping that, one of these days, he'll push the Doctor too far, right off the edge into the dark side, and then maybe they can go and ravage the universe together. Which makes for an interesting symmetry to the Doctor hoping he can redeem the Master.

What I want to know is when this mechanism between them started, since I doubt it was when Three was exiled and the Master showed up on Earth.

It's a good question. It certainly seems to me to that it must've started well before the Master ever showed up in canon, although it seems to get uglier and more vicious as time goes on. The two of them must have had one hell of a falling-out.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

But his TARDIS, presumably, did not stop being a TARDIS, and thus may well have been destroyed by the Daleks or by whatever the Doctor did.

Oh, good point.

Beyond that, it's also occurred to me to wonder if perhaps the Master is hoping that, one of these days, he'll push the Doctor too far, right off the edge into the dark side, and then maybe they can go and ravage the universe together. Which makes for an interesting symmetry to the Doctor hoping he can redeem the Master.

Indeed it does. Claws of Axos sadly did not have much Master and Doctor interaction, but well, you had this scene which basically went like:

M: So, what's the plan to save the day for your pets?
D: There isn't one. I'd rather run off with you.
M: ? Why do I doubt that?
D: Why would I rather stick around on this dust ball than running away with you?
M: Fine. Despite the fact that you kept foiling my schemes in the past, I believe you and shall repair your TARDIS some more. Let's run off together.

I mean, really. He's awfully quick to believe the Doctor leaving the humans to their fates there. (Though not that surprised when the Doctor does the heroic time loop thing.)

It certainly seems to me to that it must've started well before the Master ever showed up in canon, although it seems to get uglier and more vicious as time goes on. The two of them must have had one hell of a falling-out.

The break-up from hell indeed. At a guess, the Master felt somehow betrayed by the Doctor rather than the reverse. (Based on who usually starts their pecadillos.)

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I haven't seen "Axos" in ages, but I did read the novelization a while back, and now that you mention it, he was rather quick to believe that, wasn't he? Maybe it was because he wanted to, or because he didn't want to reject the opportunity on the off-chance that it was genuine.

At a guess, the Master felt somehow betrayed by the Doctor rather than the reverse.

I'd be willing to bet on it. Although I'm equally sure that if you asked the Doctor, he'd say it was the Master's fault.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

And, speaking of "Axos," I wonder if there's some significance to the fact that when the Doctor is recalling past times they've had together, desperately trying to talk the Master into regenerating, it's the Axons that he mentions...

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

what the Master really wants is the Doctor's attention and appreciation, recognition of himself as a worthy opponent

Haven't seen the actual scene, just read descriptions, but in The Mind of Evil there's a scene where the Master gets attacked by a fear-creating alien creature (that he'd, as usual, thought he could control) and we see his hallucination of his greatest fear. As you'd expect, it's the Doctor, but it's not the Doctor in a murderous or vengeful mood, but laughing at him.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Yep. This is absolutely correct, and, I think, tells you a lot about the Master. :)

(I strongly recommend watching "The Mind of Evil," by the way. It's terrific!)

[neuralclone.livejournal.com]

Claws of Axos: it's next on my "to buy" list.

The Dalek Invasion of Earth. I love this episode - in fact I think it's my favourite of all One's stories. Like yo said, it gave Barbara a chance to shine, and there was also that wonderful WWII influenced "Blitz/Resistance" atmosphere to the story. (It's probably worthwile noting that WWII was well within living memory for those who made The Dalek Invasion of Earth - in fact WWII was closer in time to them than the episode is to us. In other words, Terry Nation and Co. had some pretty realistic, not at all pretty, dystopias in mind to draw upon.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Claws of Axos: I wouldn't qualify it as a "must"; like I said, there are Third Doctor adventures that impressed me way more - which ones have you already?

Oh, the WWII imagery was very obvious in The Dalek Invasion of Earth, and not in a trivializing way. (Though I could have done without the black Dalek being called "the commandant" - I mean, really, Terry, I get the Daleks = Nazis thing anyway.)

[neuralclone.livejournal.com]

Well Old Who or New Who, they've never been scared to use very obvious metaphors. ("45 seconds", Rusty?)

I don't have that many Doctor Who DVDs as yet - "The Horror of Fang Rock" and "Spearhead from Space" (which I started watching yesterday). However, I have been watching episodes borrowed from the local public library (I watched "Inferno" recently). It's one of the things which prompted me to start building my own collection.

As for "Claws of Axos" - I just feel like watching the Master captured by cheesey looking aliens again. *G*