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selenakIn between much RL business, I manged to squeeze a viewing of the second season AtS episode Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been…, with Tim Minear's audio commentary.
First, let me get some nostalgia out of the way. Until the fourth season, the second one was my favourite, because of the stunning Darla arc. I still have Pylea issues, and Epiphany "never mind, those lawyers were scheduled to die anyway" issues, but still, I love what happens in the second season pre-Dead End. (Yup, I also have "let's show off Christian's chest and singing and ignore the complete unlikelihood of him and Lorne being friends while Holland Manners was still around" issues.) These days, the fourth season is my favourite, mostly because it's the best written, and undid some of the damage the third did, but in my heart of hearts, the second will always be special. Noir, real noir, here I come! (And the sight of Cordy with long brown hair and no sign of saintliness or awkward Angel adoration makes me weep. Cordelia, my sweet, what have they done to you? If I ever meet Tim Minear, Joss or any of the AtS producers/writers in person, after complimenting them to the skies, I'm going to ask "why oh why Saint Cordy? Not that the Jasmine retcon in season 4 wasn't a brilliant idea, but why did you go there in the first place?")
So: Are You Now…. Tim Minear starts with saying that this is probably his favourite of the episodes he has written, which is interesting, considering he recorded this in the third season, and other contenders for the title would have been Somnabulist, Darla, or Lullaby. He originally wanted to set it in the 40s, "because we all love the 40s, the look, maybe some Nazis thrown in… but then Joss had the idea that it should be the 50s. Which clicked with me at once, because when you talk about paranoia, it really belongs in the 50s."
Sidenote I: Am I ever glad. I love Tim Minear best of the AtS writers, but really, the Scourge in Hero weren't his best effort - I feel about these demonic pseudo-Nazis like other people feel about Wrecked and the drug/magic thing therein. If you want to know how racism, concentration camps and other distinct parallels to the Third Reich can be handled in a fantasy or sci-fi surrounding, look at ST: DS9, specifically episodes like Duet. So I'm glad Joss kept Mr. M. away from the Nazis and steered him towards McCarthyism, with a superb episode as a final result.
Tim Minear calls the first shot of the flashback "the Titanic shot, which I wanted to cut, but Joss made me put it back in, and in the end, you know - Joss' show. He was right, of course. It works perfectly."
Sidenote II: This brings me to another observation. For some reason, a sizable portion of AtS fandom seems to believe - as evidenced during the wars about the arrival of he-who-must-not-be-named in the fifth season - that Joss had little to nothing to do with Angel during its four seasons, except for the few episodes he wrote or cowrote. I can't tell you how often I've read exclamations on the lines of "he doesn't understand the show/characters/storylines" or "leave my show alone and write Firefly, you…" (This is of course the reverse of the equally curious belief in Buffy that on the later BtVS seasons, Marti is responsible for anything the viewers don't like, and Joss for what they do.) Judging by the comments of Tim Minear here, in various interviews and judging by the commets of other writers like Mere Smith or Steven DeKnight, Joss was and is very much involved. Logic, thy name is not fandom.
The long tracking shots this episode features make TM very happy because they were supposed to get the viewer into the period, plus help with the feeling of emotional isolation and paranoia. He's equally happy with the music - says he told composer Rob Krol to "become Bernard Herrman" for this episode, "which he did". And he happily included as many 50s movie and atmosphere references as he could - Angel's red James Dean jacket, the Griffith observatory, Judy's name and Natalie-Woold-look, the simultanous parallels to Psycho (though wait, wasn't Psycho early 60s already?), the McCarthy hearings, the bookstore owner watching I Love Lucy, the detective sporting Jake Nicholson's look from Chinatown…
(His reference to Chinatown, a film set in the L.A. of the 50s but of course shot much later, reminded me of L.A. Confidential, for which this is true as well. Was LA Confidential shown in the cinemas before or after the start of AtS' second season? Because it would have been an obvious thing to reference as well.)
He had seen Melissa Soandso, the actress wo plays Judy, in a Martin Scorsese picture and had doubts she was right for the part because in the Scorsese film, she was so brash and modern and tough. But her reading convinced him and Joss, and she really came across as a 50s type of character, and brought the vulnerability and increasing fear out perfectly. The shot of the salesman actually killing himself had to be removed because the network insisted (boo! Hiss!) it was too disturbing. They also had a "Death of a Salesman" joke there - the movie actor misunderstands when first being told about the salesman's suicide and thinks the others are talking about the play - which had to be cut. (Note to self: Joss & Co. must be Arthur Miller fans, bearing Restless in mind.) As had a lot of other stuff, mostly Cordy and Wesley scenes, because the episode as shot was nine minutes over time. Something Tim Minear wanted to cut but couldn't was Angel's line to Judy "they fired you because they were afraid". TM thought it was too preachy but since David Boreanaz had moved while saying it, there was no way he could cut it without creating a notable continuity gaffe.
Something else he wasn't quite content with was the present-day look of the Hyperion - he thought it didn't look run-down and shabby enough. But he loved the flashback look. The bookstore Angel visists on Hollywood Boulevard is a real bookstore there, but Tim Minear said he heard it had be closed since they filmed Epiphany. (Which is where we meet bookstore owner Denver again.) Thematically, he said the episode made people think at first it's about Angel having to make up for this terrible thing he did in the past, until at the end it's obvious it's really about Angel having to forgive someone else - i.e. Judy - for what they did, a new thing for him.
Sidenote III: This reminds me: it's debatable whether Angel is good or bad at forgiving. As late as his perfect-day-dream Awakening, we see that in his mind, everyone else has to apologize to him, not the other way around. He forgives Connor quite a lot, but Connor is his son. Wesley, on the other hand…
As to how Judy survived all these years: the demon kept her alive in a symbiosis, feeding of her fear and guilt. Which is why Judy dies soon after the demon, of course. In the final dialogue of the episode, it becomes clear that the Hyperion is a metaphor for Angel himself. (I wonder what it means then that according to interviews, the AtS crew won't be using the Hyperion anymore in season 5?) One last thing - in an aside, Tim Minear refers to Cordy and Wesley as Angel's minions. He's clearly being flippant, but I can hear the screams of rage from certain people already…
First, let me get some nostalgia out of the way. Until the fourth season, the second one was my favourite, because of the stunning Darla arc. I still have Pylea issues, and Epiphany "never mind, those lawyers were scheduled to die anyway" issues, but still, I love what happens in the second season pre-Dead End. (Yup, I also have "let's show off Christian's chest and singing and ignore the complete unlikelihood of him and Lorne being friends while Holland Manners was still around" issues.) These days, the fourth season is my favourite, mostly because it's the best written, and undid some of the damage the third did, but in my heart of hearts, the second will always be special. Noir, real noir, here I come! (And the sight of Cordy with long brown hair and no sign of saintliness or awkward Angel adoration makes me weep. Cordelia, my sweet, what have they done to you? If I ever meet Tim Minear, Joss or any of the AtS producers/writers in person, after complimenting them to the skies, I'm going to ask "why oh why Saint Cordy? Not that the Jasmine retcon in season 4 wasn't a brilliant idea, but why did you go there in the first place?")
So: Are You Now…. Tim Minear starts with saying that this is probably his favourite of the episodes he has written, which is interesting, considering he recorded this in the third season, and other contenders for the title would have been Somnabulist, Darla, or Lullaby. He originally wanted to set it in the 40s, "because we all love the 40s, the look, maybe some Nazis thrown in… but then Joss had the idea that it should be the 50s. Which clicked with me at once, because when you talk about paranoia, it really belongs in the 50s."
Sidenote I: Am I ever glad. I love Tim Minear best of the AtS writers, but really, the Scourge in Hero weren't his best effort - I feel about these demonic pseudo-Nazis like other people feel about Wrecked and the drug/magic thing therein. If you want to know how racism, concentration camps and other distinct parallels to the Third Reich can be handled in a fantasy or sci-fi surrounding, look at ST: DS9, specifically episodes like Duet. So I'm glad Joss kept Mr. M. away from the Nazis and steered him towards McCarthyism, with a superb episode as a final result.
Tim Minear calls the first shot of the flashback "the Titanic shot, which I wanted to cut, but Joss made me put it back in, and in the end, you know - Joss' show. He was right, of course. It works perfectly."
Sidenote II: This brings me to another observation. For some reason, a sizable portion of AtS fandom seems to believe - as evidenced during the wars about the arrival of he-who-must-not-be-named in the fifth season - that Joss had little to nothing to do with Angel during its four seasons, except for the few episodes he wrote or cowrote. I can't tell you how often I've read exclamations on the lines of "he doesn't understand the show/characters/storylines" or "leave my show alone and write Firefly, you…" (This is of course the reverse of the equally curious belief in Buffy that on the later BtVS seasons, Marti is responsible for anything the viewers don't like, and Joss for what they do.) Judging by the comments of Tim Minear here, in various interviews and judging by the commets of other writers like Mere Smith or Steven DeKnight, Joss was and is very much involved. Logic, thy name is not fandom.
The long tracking shots this episode features make TM very happy because they were supposed to get the viewer into the period, plus help with the feeling of emotional isolation and paranoia. He's equally happy with the music - says he told composer Rob Krol to "become Bernard Herrman" for this episode, "which he did". And he happily included as many 50s movie and atmosphere references as he could - Angel's red James Dean jacket, the Griffith observatory, Judy's name and Natalie-Woold-look, the simultanous parallels to Psycho (though wait, wasn't Psycho early 60s already?), the McCarthy hearings, the bookstore owner watching I Love Lucy, the detective sporting Jake Nicholson's look from Chinatown…
(His reference to Chinatown, a film set in the L.A. of the 50s but of course shot much later, reminded me of L.A. Confidential, for which this is true as well. Was LA Confidential shown in the cinemas before or after the start of AtS' second season? Because it would have been an obvious thing to reference as well.)
He had seen Melissa Soandso, the actress wo plays Judy, in a Martin Scorsese picture and had doubts she was right for the part because in the Scorsese film, she was so brash and modern and tough. But her reading convinced him and Joss, and she really came across as a 50s type of character, and brought the vulnerability and increasing fear out perfectly. The shot of the salesman actually killing himself had to be removed because the network insisted (boo! Hiss!) it was too disturbing. They also had a "Death of a Salesman" joke there - the movie actor misunderstands when first being told about the salesman's suicide and thinks the others are talking about the play - which had to be cut. (Note to self: Joss & Co. must be Arthur Miller fans, bearing Restless in mind.) As had a lot of other stuff, mostly Cordy and Wesley scenes, because the episode as shot was nine minutes over time. Something Tim Minear wanted to cut but couldn't was Angel's line to Judy "they fired you because they were afraid". TM thought it was too preachy but since David Boreanaz had moved while saying it, there was no way he could cut it without creating a notable continuity gaffe.
Something else he wasn't quite content with was the present-day look of the Hyperion - he thought it didn't look run-down and shabby enough. But he loved the flashback look. The bookstore Angel visists on Hollywood Boulevard is a real bookstore there, but Tim Minear said he heard it had be closed since they filmed Epiphany. (Which is where we meet bookstore owner Denver again.) Thematically, he said the episode made people think at first it's about Angel having to make up for this terrible thing he did in the past, until at the end it's obvious it's really about Angel having to forgive someone else - i.e. Judy - for what they did, a new thing for him.
Sidenote III: This reminds me: it's debatable whether Angel is good or bad at forgiving. As late as his perfect-day-dream Awakening, we see that in his mind, everyone else has to apologize to him, not the other way around. He forgives Connor quite a lot, but Connor is his son. Wesley, on the other hand…
As to how Judy survived all these years: the demon kept her alive in a symbiosis, feeding of her fear and guilt. Which is why Judy dies soon after the demon, of course. In the final dialogue of the episode, it becomes clear that the Hyperion is a metaphor for Angel himself. (I wonder what it means then that according to interviews, the AtS crew won't be using the Hyperion anymore in season 5?) One last thing - in an aside, Tim Minear refers to Cordy and Wesley as Angel's minions. He's clearly being flippant, but I can hear the screams of rage from certain people already…
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-16 12:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-16 05:33 am (UTC)Yesterday I posted much more detailed thoughts about some observations I've made so far. I only mention this because you may be interested and. frankly, I'm too damn lazy to type it all over here. :p
As for your comment about Joss' involvement in Angel, I love the contradictions that exist in fandom. In every interview I have either heard or read involving wirters for Buffy and/or Angel, every single one of them has commented on Joss structuring the storyline for a particular episode, or tweaking an idea, or rewriting lines or even entire scenes. One way or another he is involved in every episode. What makes me laugh is that when people watch something they hate play out on screen the man is either attacked for abandoning the show and allowing things to go horribly wrong. Or, for having too much of a hand in it and interfering with the writers (who, according to fandom, are far superior to him). You can't have it both ways people.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-16 07:58 am (UTC)Season 4: I know, it's a love it or hate it thing, as you say. A lot depends on how one sees Connor and his relationship with Angel, which was as central to season 4 as Buffy's relationship with Dawn was to season 5 of BTVS. Since Connor (grown up version, not the baby!) played a huge part in reconciling me to AtS after season 3, and I loved the tragedy of this father-son relationship... But even aside from this completely subjective thing: I admire the way season 4 really works out as a single arc, from Deep Down to Home, and I admire the originality of Jasmine as a Galadriel-gone-wrong villain.
You can't have it both ways people
Exactly. But as I said, logic isn't fandom's strongest trait...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-16 06:34 am (UTC)I'm thrilled that Joss is apparently going to be more involved with Angel this year, but I'm very sad that Mr. Minear has left to work on a show for Fox called "Wonderfalls".
Tim Minear is a loss, true.
Date: 2003-09-18 05:10 am (UTC)Good to hear Tim M. regrets the Scourge!
no subject
Date: 2003-09-16 12:47 pm (UTC)between the Hyperion and the alleys...
Date: 2003-09-17 08:49 am (UTC)Re: between the Hyperion and the alleys...
Date: 2003-09-17 12:02 pm (UTC)