Heroes 2.09 Cautionary Tales
Nov. 20th, 2007 08:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakConsidering last winter was low on snow, I've been using the last few days to ski as much as I could. Still one of the most fun things ever.
Early on, I thought I knew how this could go; a trade of the girls followed by a dead Bob. And I felt a bit unsatisfied, not just because of my fondness for Bob, but because I thought this wasn't a good pay-off for all the building up of issues: Noah's road to helll, the enstragement between him and Claire, Claire's own mistakes and flirting with hubris, Mohinder's road to the morally grey.
What we got instead was so much better.
But before I get to the jaw-droping moment, I'll talk about the Hiro subplot. In which we saw Kimiko again, though sadly she had no lines, but stilll, good to know the show remembered Hiro isn't the only one now orphaned. We also saw the custom with the red ink on a Japanese gravestone I mentioned in Hitan, so colour me smug (despite the fact they didn't use any of the other funeral customs). Naturally, Hiro would try to save his father. Yes, he learned this doesn't work with Charlie, but if Future!Hiro from 5YG tried to change the timeline to save Ando nonetheless, it figures current day Hiro would try as much for Kaito. And Kaito repeats a line Bob said to Nathan back in Out of Time, only he says "we" not "some" and "they" and puts it more emphatically: We can't be gods. How do you do justice, Little!Hiro asks, and adult Hiro thinks he knows the answer, but does he? Finding his father's murderer, he finds what is, among other things, his own creation.
The "we create our own monsters" theme is played out with Matt's subplot as well, as he discovers his powers extending and uses this, as he sees it, in pursuit of justice. The scene with Angela, as their two previous scenes, was again superb, with the power balance shifting, and yet even while Matt obtains his objective, the name he wants, Angela lands the most devastating blow when telling him he'll be his father. We also get some intriguing new tidbits about the Elders. If Angela-under-pressure says the truth as she's made to, an important reason for them to turn against Adam thirty years ago was the discovery of his immortality. Which presumably means he didn't tell them his age to begin with. Why would the discovery that "Adam" is immortal freak them out/turn them against him? My current guess is because of what it meant in regard to Adam's plans (and Adam's position as the head of the group before the others landed a coup and locked him away).
Angela also says, but this is a bit more circumspect because it's spoken when she was not replying to Matt's direct command anymore, that the Elders did what they did for the next generation (hah! a Runaways echo! - Brian K. Vaughan's Runaways, that is, not my fanfic), which again could relate to either what happened to Adam or some of their other actions.
Of course, parents have used that justification - I did it all for you - since the beginning of time, and sometimes children have cause to doubt it. Just look at Noah Bennet and Claire. What I like about the big confrontation is that they're both right and wrong - Claire messed up (and she knows it), but this has stopped being about her and keeping her safe a good while ago, as Noah later acknowledges. It has become about himself when he saw the picture of his own death for the first time (at the latest). And note it took Sandra to stop him from carrying out the threat to tie Claire up. While we're talking of Sandra, may I say I'm eternally grateful for that one tiny moment where she pulls her hand away. Because I wanted Sandra once, just once, NOT forgive Noah immediately. (And she has more reason than anyone not to - after she forgave him the last time, he started lying to her again, and for no good reason at all, simply because it was easier and he's used to that patronizing attitude towards her.) Though of course now he's died a martyr's death (sort of), there won't be any follow-up on this once he returns out of the sheer joy he's alive again, so I suppose that was that. Still, I got it. My one moment of Sandra showing actual resentment over what Noah did. Thank you.
Noah and Claire are mirrored by Bob and Elle, and we got some more background. Elle's version of her past - which she told Peter last week - is called into doubt by what Noah tells her, though actually both versions aren't incompatible (that psychiatrist diagnosis could have come after the multiple electricity experiments she can't remember). We got as good as confirmed that Bob, like Noah, isn't the biological but the adopted father (Noah says he "brought her in" - presumably after the first two incidents she mentioned to Peter which brought her to the attention of the Company), and always assuming Noah is telling the truth instead of bending it, the fact Elle got thoroughly messed up by the initial experiments could very well have been the cause for the adoption (i.e. guilt, as duty was the initial cause of Claire's adoption by Noah). Considering Noah is completely sure Bob will trade Claire for Elle, it seems equally clear that the initial cause was superceded by genuine affection. But Bob combines admonishments to use sunscreen with training his daughter to be a good killer (as opposed to one who just does it because she loses her temper) if needs be; it's the flipside or darkside of Noah's overinsistence to keep Claire innocent of everything (as opposed to, you know, showing her that painting to begin with, for example).
Sidenote: loved Bob's eyeroll when Elle asked whether she can keep Mohinder. It's little things like that which make that paternity thing real.)
Speaking of little things, another neat detail was Mohinder in the back of the car and Bennet behind the wheel mirroring their first meeting in the pilot when HRG was freaking Mohinder out with his Matrix allusions. And might I say, Sendil R. has grown as an actor since then. He's always been pretty, but in this episode he's handed some big scenes, and he handles them magnificently. Both the near-execution by Bennet, with him kneeling (you could really feel the fear but also the resolve in Mohinder there), and the big one, the shooting and the aftermath. Of all the things I expected to happen, the one I never expected to happen was the painting playing out in literal terms, i.e. Mohinder shooting Noah, with Claire and West in the background. I was really really certain it would be Bob, Elle, and Peter. And yet, when it came, it felt completely true, because at this point Mohinder was ready to shoot Bennet, not as an assassination but as literary as an act of saving a life/several lives. He couldn't have done it earlier, the first time he pulled the gun and got easily overpowered by Noah, but at that point? Yes. Awesome scene, and awesome aftermath, with Mohinder staring at his hands. Way back when, in the Sylar situation, he got close to killing another human being, but because he needed to do the monologuing and punishing, he didn't go through with it until Sylar had regained the upper hand. This time, though, he did it, and the road to morally grey is complete.
Lastly: when Bob took the blood from Claire, I assumed that if he tested it on anyone, it would be Niki, for obvious reasons. (Btw, there has to be a reason why they don't use any Adam samples, and they must have plenty. Which makes me a little worried for Nathan. Again.) I never expected the final reveal. So, Noah: back from the dead. Again, I suspect there must be a reason why this isn't done all the time with 30 years of involuntary or voluntary Adam donations, and I presume we'll see some serious drawbacks soon. As for reasons why Bob should bring Noah back to the living? Well, as a test subject for whether Claire's blood does immunize against the virus would be one reason, though again, why not Niki? So maybe there are other considerations at large as to why a living-with-drawbacks Noah is better than a dead one as far as the Company and/or Bob is concerned.
Dark Horse factor: unless the person responsible for snatching Noah's body and injecting it with Claire's blood wasn't Bob but Elle, who wants more answers, but I don't see how she could have done it without Bob noticing.
The award for most painful bad dialogue in this episode goes to the Noah and West bonding, but as the rest of the episode was good, let us cover it with the cloak of silence, as we say in German.
Early on, I thought I knew how this could go; a trade of the girls followed by a dead Bob. And I felt a bit unsatisfied, not just because of my fondness for Bob, but because I thought this wasn't a good pay-off for all the building up of issues: Noah's road to helll, the enstragement between him and Claire, Claire's own mistakes and flirting with hubris, Mohinder's road to the morally grey.
What we got instead was so much better.
But before I get to the jaw-droping moment, I'll talk about the Hiro subplot. In which we saw Kimiko again, though sadly she had no lines, but stilll, good to know the show remembered Hiro isn't the only one now orphaned. We also saw the custom with the red ink on a Japanese gravestone I mentioned in Hitan, so colour me smug (despite the fact they didn't use any of the other funeral customs). Naturally, Hiro would try to save his father. Yes, he learned this doesn't work with Charlie, but if Future!Hiro from 5YG tried to change the timeline to save Ando nonetheless, it figures current day Hiro would try as much for Kaito. And Kaito repeats a line Bob said to Nathan back in Out of Time, only he says "we" not "some" and "they" and puts it more emphatically: We can't be gods. How do you do justice, Little!Hiro asks, and adult Hiro thinks he knows the answer, but does he? Finding his father's murderer, he finds what is, among other things, his own creation.
The "we create our own monsters" theme is played out with Matt's subplot as well, as he discovers his powers extending and uses this, as he sees it, in pursuit of justice. The scene with Angela, as their two previous scenes, was again superb, with the power balance shifting, and yet even while Matt obtains his objective, the name he wants, Angela lands the most devastating blow when telling him he'll be his father. We also get some intriguing new tidbits about the Elders. If Angela-under-pressure says the truth as she's made to, an important reason for them to turn against Adam thirty years ago was the discovery of his immortality. Which presumably means he didn't tell them his age to begin with. Why would the discovery that "Adam" is immortal freak them out/turn them against him? My current guess is because of what it meant in regard to Adam's plans (and Adam's position as the head of the group before the others landed a coup and locked him away).
Angela also says, but this is a bit more circumspect because it's spoken when she was not replying to Matt's direct command anymore, that the Elders did what they did for the next generation (hah! a Runaways echo! - Brian K. Vaughan's Runaways, that is, not my fanfic), which again could relate to either what happened to Adam or some of their other actions.
Of course, parents have used that justification - I did it all for you - since the beginning of time, and sometimes children have cause to doubt it. Just look at Noah Bennet and Claire. What I like about the big confrontation is that they're both right and wrong - Claire messed up (and she knows it), but this has stopped being about her and keeping her safe a good while ago, as Noah later acknowledges. It has become about himself when he saw the picture of his own death for the first time (at the latest). And note it took Sandra to stop him from carrying out the threat to tie Claire up. While we're talking of Sandra, may I say I'm eternally grateful for that one tiny moment where she pulls her hand away. Because I wanted Sandra once, just once, NOT forgive Noah immediately. (And she has more reason than anyone not to - after she forgave him the last time, he started lying to her again, and for no good reason at all, simply because it was easier and he's used to that patronizing attitude towards her.) Though of course now he's died a martyr's death (sort of), there won't be any follow-up on this once he returns out of the sheer joy he's alive again, so I suppose that was that. Still, I got it. My one moment of Sandra showing actual resentment over what Noah did. Thank you.
Noah and Claire are mirrored by Bob and Elle, and we got some more background. Elle's version of her past - which she told Peter last week - is called into doubt by what Noah tells her, though actually both versions aren't incompatible (that psychiatrist diagnosis could have come after the multiple electricity experiments she can't remember). We got as good as confirmed that Bob, like Noah, isn't the biological but the adopted father (Noah says he "brought her in" - presumably after the first two incidents she mentioned to Peter which brought her to the attention of the Company), and always assuming Noah is telling the truth instead of bending it, the fact Elle got thoroughly messed up by the initial experiments could very well have been the cause for the adoption (i.e. guilt, as duty was the initial cause of Claire's adoption by Noah). Considering Noah is completely sure Bob will trade Claire for Elle, it seems equally clear that the initial cause was superceded by genuine affection. But Bob combines admonishments to use sunscreen with training his daughter to be a good killer (as opposed to one who just does it because she loses her temper) if needs be; it's the flipside or darkside of Noah's overinsistence to keep Claire innocent of everything (as opposed to, you know, showing her that painting to begin with, for example).
Sidenote: loved Bob's eyeroll when Elle asked whether she can keep Mohinder. It's little things like that which make that paternity thing real.)
Speaking of little things, another neat detail was Mohinder in the back of the car and Bennet behind the wheel mirroring their first meeting in the pilot when HRG was freaking Mohinder out with his Matrix allusions. And might I say, Sendil R. has grown as an actor since then. He's always been pretty, but in this episode he's handed some big scenes, and he handles them magnificently. Both the near-execution by Bennet, with him kneeling (you could really feel the fear but also the resolve in Mohinder there), and the big one, the shooting and the aftermath. Of all the things I expected to happen, the one I never expected to happen was the painting playing out in literal terms, i.e. Mohinder shooting Noah, with Claire and West in the background. I was really really certain it would be Bob, Elle, and Peter. And yet, when it came, it felt completely true, because at this point Mohinder was ready to shoot Bennet, not as an assassination but as literary as an act of saving a life/several lives. He couldn't have done it earlier, the first time he pulled the gun and got easily overpowered by Noah, but at that point? Yes. Awesome scene, and awesome aftermath, with Mohinder staring at his hands. Way back when, in the Sylar situation, he got close to killing another human being, but because he needed to do the monologuing and punishing, he didn't go through with it until Sylar had regained the upper hand. This time, though, he did it, and the road to morally grey is complete.
Lastly: when Bob took the blood from Claire, I assumed that if he tested it on anyone, it would be Niki, for obvious reasons. (Btw, there has to be a reason why they don't use any Adam samples, and they must have plenty. Which makes me a little worried for Nathan. Again.) I never expected the final reveal. So, Noah: back from the dead. Again, I suspect there must be a reason why this isn't done all the time with 30 years of involuntary or voluntary Adam donations, and I presume we'll see some serious drawbacks soon. As for reasons why Bob should bring Noah back to the living? Well, as a test subject for whether Claire's blood does immunize against the virus would be one reason, though again, why not Niki? So maybe there are other considerations at large as to why a living-with-drawbacks Noah is better than a dead one as far as the Company and/or Bob is concerned.
Dark Horse factor: unless the person responsible for snatching Noah's body and injecting it with Claire's blood wasn't Bob but Elle, who wants more answers, but I don't see how she could have done it without Bob noticing.
The award for most painful bad dialogue in this episode goes to the Noah and West bonding, but as the rest of the episode was good, let us cover it with the cloak of silence, as we say in German.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:06 pm (UTC)And now we've only got two episodes left. *weeps* Stupid cheap-ass suits. *mutter, grumble*
Again, I suspect there must be a reason why this isn't done all the time with 30 years of involuntary or voluntary Adam donations, and I presume we'll see some serious drawbacks soon.
That is a really good point, and now I'm very interested to see how it plays out. Because I can't see it as being just a plot hole.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:39 pm (UTC)Off-Top:
Date: 2007-11-20 08:09 pm (UTC)Are you still at the same address in Munich? I need to send you something. ;)
Re: Off-Top:
Date: 2007-11-20 08:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:10 pm (UTC)What Matt did to Angela was pretty harsh - especially since he, unlike the viewers, doesn't have any concept of how dangerous she actually is, and thus is basically tormenting an aged socialite - but the thing that really made my jaw drop was his "experimenting" on Molly. It's a very fascinating storyline; I never would have guessed that he would lose perspective this quickly.
Angela was awesome, though. And I bet she still managed to keep information from him.
Why would the discovery that "Adam" is immortal freak them out/turn them against him? My current guess is because of what it meant in regard to Adam's plans (and Adam's position as the head of the group before the others landed a coup and locked him away).
I'm pretty sure it'll be something like this. Realizing that someone can simply outlive you when things don't go according to his plans - and likely outlive your children and grandchildren - isn't a soothing prospect.
Angela also says, but this is a bit more circumspect because it's spoken when she was not replying to Matt's direct command anymore, that the Elders did what they did for the next generation (hah! a Runaways echo! - Brian K. Vaughan's Runaways, that is, not my fanfic), which again could relate to either what happened to Adam or some of their other actions.
Then again, I bet Angela also thinks sending Heidi away was for Nathan's own good... or for that matter trying to alienate Peter and Nathan from each other. Or giving Claire away...it's a whole laundry list of things that were just in the best interest of her family.
Sandra: I am totally with you on her removing her hand - and I am glad she remembered that Lyle exists, too.
Considering Elle: do you think she knows that Bob isn't her real father? I felt she views him as such.
Loved Tobolowsky's eye roll as well, and agree on Sendhil Ramamurthy's growing acting chops.
(Btw, there has to be a reason why they don't use any Adam samples, and they must have plenty. Which makes me a little worried for Nathan. Again.)
I don't think the problem is Adam's blood - although if he is no longer around, they will run out of it fast, since you can only store actual blood for so long - I think Bob simply wants to know if Claire's blood has exactly the same effect. It's likely experimenting more than anything else (and he would likely risk Niki's health for that - I mean, it's not as if they couldn't use whatever is left of Adam's for her if it didn't work).
In the long run, there probably will be drawbacks for both Adam's and Claire's blood, though, since it is just too convenient a cure to keep. Who knows, maybe Adam's blood turns you into an automatic alcoholic. Or makes you his minion, like Dracula's. (Great, and now I have visions of Nathan as Mina Harker. Not good.)
As for reasons why Bob should bring Noah back to the living? Well, as a test subject for whether Claire's blood does immunize against the virus would be one reason, though again, why not Niki?
Maybe they wanted a non-powered subject? If they go by 5YG, the powered humans do seem to be a different species, after all, so the reactions might be different.
Dark Horse factor: unless the person responsible for snatching Noah's body and injecting it with Claire's blood wasn't Bob but Elle, who wants more answers, but I don't see how she could have done it without Bob noticing.
Elle would be awesome! I have read theories that it could be Adam, but I'm pretty sure that was a Primatech ... broom closet? It certainly looked like one...
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:52 pm (UTC)Well, the fact she bitchslapped him out of her mind before probably clued him into the fact that this wasn't a woman to be messed with, but good point nonetheless - he still has no idea how dangerous she is. I doubt Nathan talked about her en route to Philadelphia and back.
Re: experimenting on Molly: I think that had less of an impact on me because the first time he did it was clearly an accident, and the second time he wanted to make sure this was really happening, that it hadn't been a coincidence. Whereas by the time he talked to his boss, he knew what he was doing, and he most definitely came in to that room with Angela prepared to go the full length.
I never would have guessed that he would lose perspective this quickly.
Well, Matt has been one of the disempowered, a schlub, most of his life, and he has just been handed THE toy to find the truth, cut through the crap, get answers, not more lies. I'm not surprised he gave into temptation; I remember 5YG!Parkman, after all. I do expect this version of Matt will not go that dark, though, mostly because I expect upcoming events will provide a reality check.
Then again, I bet Angela also thinks sending Heidi away was for Nathan's own good... or for that matter trying to alienate Peter and Nathan from each other. Or giving Claire away...it's a whole laundry list of things that were just in the best interest of her family.
Oh, naturally. I mean, this is the woman who thought permitting one son to kill .07% of the population was for the greater good...
Great, and now I have visions of Nathan as Mina Harker. Not good.
*covers eyes and tries not to wonder about Winona Ryder playing yet another Petrelli relative, since she's cast as Zachary Quinto's mother elsewhere*
Maybe they wanted a non-powered subject? If they go by 5YG, the powered humans do seem to be a different species, after all, so the reactions might be different.
Agreed, but non-powered people shouldn't be that hard to come by, they don't need the bother with Noah around the living once more for that.
Those walls screamed Prima Tech to me, plus I'm sure Adam is currently either in Montreal or en route to New York, depending how simultanously these events are supposed to take place (and especially considering all of them take place during a single funeral in Japan).
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 09:10 pm (UTC)No, but I bet he now knows everything about Matt's marriage troubles. Everything.
Re: experimenting on Molly: I think that had less of an impact on me because the first time he did it was clearly an accident, and the second time he wanted to make sure this was really happening, that it hadn't been a coincidence. Whereas by the time he talked to his boss, he knew what he was doing, and he most definitely came in to that room with Angela prepared to go the full length.
Agreed, and I'm certainly not fine with how he treated Angela, but getting Molly to eat her vegetables and do her homework might become an easy habit. Doubtlessly just because he wants "what's best for her." With Angela, there is no level of trust that he breaks. (On the other hand, we are talking the guy who thought reading his wife's mind unasked was romantic...)
I do expect this version of Matt will not go that dark, though, mostly because I expect upcoming events will provide a reality check.
On the one hand, yes, on the other I am wondering whether they'll let one regular go completely dark. Could easily be Matt.
*covers eyes and tries not to wonder about Winona Ryder playing yet another Petrelli relative, since she's cast as Zachary Quinto's mother elsewhere*
*wonders if that makes her yet another member of the 9-year-old Screen Moms Club*
Agreed, but non-powered people shouldn't be that hard to come by, they don't need the bother with Noah around the living once more for that.
Well, there comes a level where I do suspect that being played by Jack Coleman gives Noah the advantage over Guard No. 3, but it would certainly be nice if there was another Watsonian reason for Noah being resurrected. Hm. If we presume that the Company wants to experiment on resurrection/discover a way to emulate Adam's immortality, it may have been convenient enough that Noah was dead and available to them...
Those walls screamed Prima Tech to me, plus I'm sure Adam is currently either in Montreal or en route to New York, depending how simultanously these events are supposed to take place (and especially considering all of them take place during a single funeral in Japan).
Same here. I didn't think it was Adam, because I don't think Noah would be a useful partner for him. Way too shrewd.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 09:49 pm (UTC)*g* Indeed. And about Mohinder's annoying habits, and how cute it was when Molly first started saying "Matt" instead of "Officer Parkman". Going back to the marriage troubles, I wonder what Nathan's reaction would be/have been if Matt had asked "so, in your opinion, what is worse, cheating your spouse or leaving..."
but getting Molly to eat her vegetables and do her homework might become an easy habit
True, and if he does it again, I will be properly freaked out and see this as evidence of the Dark Side.
*wonders if that makes her yet another member of the 9-year-old Screen Moms Club*
*along with Sally Field as Tom Hanks' mother?*
(Seriously, though, when I saw Winona R. cast as Amanda in the new Star Trek, I thought, I like her, but how on earth is she going to look old enough? Amanda is the human parent! That means she should look at least 25 years older than Spock, minimum!)
I didn't think it was Adam, because I don't think Noah would be a useful partner for him. Way too shrewd.
Another good point. Did you read this week's web comic, btw? Definitely argues for Adam as at least as bad as the Company; he gets to use the "god" line, as in "I am...", which if the comics are canon would argue Bob at least wasn't lying in this regard in his Adam briefing towards Nathan.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 10:21 pm (UTC)Depending on how they travelled back, going for the radio, asking the stewardess for a really big drink, or "accidentally" dropping Matt?
(Seriously, though, when I saw Winona R. cast as Amanda in the new Star Trek, I thought, I like her, but how on earth is she going to look old enough? Amanda is the human parent! That means she should look at least 25 years older than Spock, minimum!)
It's very typical WB casting. (That's how you get Adrian Pasdar auditioning for playing Milo's father way back and not getting dismissed on the grounds of being too young, but for looking too much like Milo's brother)
Did you read this week's web comic, btw? Definitely argues for Adam as at least as bad as the Company; he gets to use the "god" line, as in "I am...", which if the comics are canon would argue Bob at least wasn't lying in this regard in his Adam briefing towards Nathan.
I read it, but must have missed that line (Have you seen the Easter Egg picture?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 01:40 pm (UTC)LOL. Considering that Nathan pointed out he's not a cargo jet and that West reminded us again the flying doesn't come with superstrength, I'm voting for the former two.
I saw the link in
God quote
Date: 2007-11-21 02:01 pm (UTC)"I had been purposeless for so long. Wanting nothing other than to destroy the miserable humanity that surrounded me. I was a god. Timeless. But even a man's dying whisper of his power challenged my claim. So ending him became my new purpose."
I'm just saying that this does not sound like 2007 Adam is going to actually want to destroy the virus, no matter what he tells Peter...
Re: God quote
Date: 2007-11-21 02:49 pm (UTC)Wow. That pretty much settles it, I'd say, although this
But even a man's dying whisper of his power challenged my claim. So ending him became my new purpose.
smacks either of a vendetta against one specific person - I figure the other regenerative guy? I really have to re-read that comic - or against other specials in general, no?
I'm just saying that this does not sound like 2007 Adam is going to actually want to destroy the virus, no matter what he tells Peter...
I never thought he would, I thought he would go for the Goldfinger approach and blackmail people. Oh well, seems he is really more for cleansing after all.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 10:19 am (UTC)That's the funny thing. For a show that isn't at all concerned with making it's science realistic, they actually do a good job at portraying scientific rigor here. They already took West in, so why try to take in Nathan? They've already studied flying. But they need a bigger sample size. So they go after everyone they find.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 08:18 pm (UTC)Honestly, I thought it might have been Mohinder who stole Noah's body and resurrected him -- still not completely convinced that Bob's side is the right one. I'm... not sure how I feel about it, if it is.
Whoever it is, though, I don't think it's Bob, because the place Noah woke up in doesn't look like a cell, does it? I'll have to watch that scene again to be sure, but it looked to me like some sort of storage area, rather than an actual cell, which makes it much more likely that someone is trying to resurrect him in secret -- someone who knows how to hook up an IV, which I guess Elle might, but Mohinder definitely would.
Very interesting post as always. I never even thought about Adam's blood having side-effects. Maybe that's why Nathan keeps seeing his burned face in the mirror? (Although obviously, having been magically healed without knowing why and being constantly afraid that he'll go back to being burned is enough reason for that.)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 01:03 am (UTC)That occurred to me too. Considering that the plan was to use to Claire's blood to cure Niki and thus nip the virus outbreak in the bud, it might be rather ironic if Mohinder uses it to resurrect Noah instead, thus undoing his own personal mistake at the cost of unleashing the virus on the rest of the world.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 10:48 pm (UTC)I thought you might enjoy that bit *g*.
Awesome scene, and awesome aftermath, with Mohinder staring at his hands.
I loved that. I really thought it was only going to look as if Mohinder had shot him and actually he'd been zapped by Elle or something, but no, they went all the way. I can almost see Mohinder turning into an HRG style grey character at this rate.
Dark Horse factor: unless the person responsible for snatching Noah's body and injecting it with Claire's blood wasn't Bob but Elle
Interesting. I wondered that too. There was something about the way she reacted to him that made me think she might be prepared to try and save his life if she thought he could give her some answers about how she became Electric!Girl. I felt that if he'd been saved by the Company there would be batteries of medical equipment around, instead it all looked a bit rough and ready.
Enjoy the skiing.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-20 11:05 pm (UTC)Oh man, that would be fun right now. The total lack of winter sports is one of the main disadvantages of living in Westphalia. OTOH, rollerblader's paradise... that makes up for it.
must skip Heroes spoilers...
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 06:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 10:23 pm (UTC)Just watched the episode; I'm impressed. This season I've mostly been downloading for the sake of my friends, I still enjoyed it but I wasn't getting into it that much. I was having doubts that after all the twists and build-up the writers would be able to deliver. But this ep had some really satisfying payoff and it took me by surprise at every corner while still making sense. I'm completely hooked once more.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 07:30 am (UTC)As soon as I got over the initial shock about the shooting, I was pretty sure that the blood would be used on Bennet. At first, I thought he might even have been canny enough to anticipate it and somehow set the whole thing up. In retrospect, though, probably not; I'm also curious whether he had accepted the inevitablity of his death, which would explain the emphasis on passing Claire on to West as her new protector (which again begs the quesiton of why an indestructible girl needs so many people looking out for her). I'm honestly not sure how much of Bennet's story to Elle to believe. I wouldn't put it past Bennet to be sowing seeds of doubt, and Elle's facial expression in the car (I <3 Kristen Bell in this) shows he was successful.
The one thing I didn't respect was for the Noah reveal to be at the end of this episode -- I expected we'd spend a couple weeks debating whether he was going to be resurrected or not. But this was a smart place to use the reveal, and it shoes that the showrunners are canny to the ways of fandom. The time gap within the episode is short enough that viewers might not put the blood and Noah's onscreen death together right away, but I'm guessing that if we didn't have that final reveal, the intrawebs would have put two and two together by next week. So now we're left with the more interesting question of where Noah is and -- the one I didn't even think about until reading this review -- who put him there? I think I want to go with Elle, just because I like the idea that it's the result of his planting doubt in her. Mohinder's a possible candidate, too.
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Date: 2007-11-21 10:05 am (UTC)http://www.tvguide.com/News/heroes-hayden-kristen/071119-01
The protecting Claire when she's indestructible thing: quite. I think it was
At a guess, if not for the strike, we might have had to wait a few weeks for the Noah reveal.
Elle would make the most sense, but I still want to know how she got Noah's body (and Claire's blood) without Bob noticing.
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Date: 2007-11-21 10:16 am (UTC)I really, really want to know what she meant by "mortgaged their souls." That's quite a turn around from the woman who thought blowing up NYC with her son was a good idea. So what were they protecting their children from? The Shanti virus? Adam? Or were they trying to pave the road to immortality for their children?
(Noah says he "brought her in" - presumably after the first two incidents she mentioned to Peter which brought her to the attention of the Company)
Unless the Petrellis have special clearance, yeah, I think that confirms it. The Elders don't seem troubled about applying Company rules to themselves and presenting their children to be tagged and studied.
Considering Noah is completely sure Bob will trade Claire for Elle
A great, great moment there. Both because Noah doesn't even consider the possibility that Bob wouldn't make the trade (and there are certainly parents on Heroes who wouldn't do it: Hal, Maury, Angela if she's up to something craftier...), but Elle does. I wonder how much of that is the revelation that she was damaged by Company experiments, and how much is just her relationship with Bob?
Speaking of little things, another neat detail was Mohinder in the back of the car and Bennet behind the wheel mirroring their first meeting in the pilot when HRG was freaking Mohinder out with his Matrix allusions.
That was a beautiful, beautiful scene. The acting, and especially the blocking of the camera work. In fact, the whole episode was gorgeous. Heroes always is, but this episode had a LOT of particularly comic-booky framing, which has actually largely been missing this season. I've missed it.
So maybe there are other considerations at large as to why a living-with-drawbacks Noah is better than a dead one as far as the Company and/or Bob is concerned.
I've been figuring hallucinations, at best. Which explains the crispy!mirror!Nathan, and also how Nathan spiraled down so quickly. Which makes Niki a very, very bad candidate to test on, and makes it too dangerous to use on Company employees. I do wonder why they brought Noah back. Maybe they weren't chasing him simply because of the betrayal? Maybe he was in on some Company projects that they need information on. Or maybe they just want to always have leverage on Claire.
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Date: 2007-11-21 10:45 am (UTC)In "Runaways" the comics, the Pride - that group of supervillains the kids discover their parents to be - turns out to have originally turned to the Dark Side on the promise that their children, not themselves, will inherit the earth, literary. (There are demi-gods/powers involved.) It does hinge on them themselves not getting the top spot, though. (Which is why not all go through with it in the end.) If Angela isn't bending the truth in order to get to Matt, it could be something similar, and it could tie with the fact neither she nor Linderman tried to get that ruler of the country position themselves, nor any of the others. Adam might have done, though, and discovering he's immortal, i.e. will always be the boss, could have clinched it.
The Elders don't seem troubled about applying Company rules to themselves and presenting their children to be tagged and studied.
Well, actually... in addition to Peter and Nathan, we have Matt and Hiro as children of Elders who never were examined while they were children, only as adults (in Matt's case) once they had manifested, or not at all. Which is actually another reason why I think Elle isn't Bob's biological daughter but became his daughter after the testing.
Both because Noah doesn't even consider the possibility that Bob wouldn't make the trade (and there are certainly parents on Heroes who wouldn't do it: Hal, Maury, Angela if she's up to something craftier...), but Elle does. I wonder how much of that is the revelation that she was damaged by Company experiments, and how much is just her relationship with Bob?
Good question. Though you've got to factor in Elle being a sociopath and none too sure about anyone's affection, I guess. BTW, this is the second time Noah uses someone else's daughter as leverage this season - he also did with Ivan, though in that case Ivan's memories of Ivan's (dead) daughter. Given that if he says the truth (and I'm guessing he is, at least as much as Bob both bringing Elle in and originating the experiments is concerned), he'd have reason to believe Bob wouldn't make the trade, too, I wonder whether he has seen something of Bob and Elle between initial experiment and Noah's own departur of the company that makes him sure Bob does in fact care enough about Elle to make that trade without hesitation?
*wants flashback scene of raising a daughter conversation*
Noah as leverage on Claire: ohhhh, good point, and yes, possible.
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Date: 2007-11-21 11:22 am (UTC)Yeah, that's part of what I've been thinking, since I generally assume Angela's ultimate goal in life is for a Petrelli to rule the world. But, if it is that route, I think it truly does need to have more in common with Runaways -- I haven't read it, but isn't part of the rationale for the deal that the Earth is going to get conquered no matter what, so their parents decide to help out and survive? Angela's phrasing suggests something similar. Something bad was going to happen no matter what, so they did what they thought was necessary to protect their children. Which, in light of the thirty year time line and the ages of most of the second generation, is interesting and does suggest Adam was the threat.
Well, actually... in addition to Peter and Nathan, we have Matt and Hiro as children of Elders who never were examined while they were children, only as adults (in Matt's case) once they had manifested, or not at all. Which is actually another reason why I think Elle isn't Bob's biological daughter but became his daughter after the testing.
Hiro and Matt I semi-handwave, since Hiro manifested and started questing at the exact same time, and Matt wasn't around his father. Peter and Nathan, though, there's little excuse for. Angela probably knew what was up during the car crash, and she definitely knew in episode2. The fact that they were nonetheless not directly brought in means that the Elders don't follow their own rules. It'd be interesting to know if Elle truly manifested before she was brought in, or if they somehow forced the activation (again, possibly resulting in her psychosis).
I wonder whether he has seen something of Bob and Elle between initial experiment and Noah's own departur of the company that makes him sure Bob does in fact care enough about Elle to make that trade without hesitation?
I think he must have. Elle clearly almost never leaves the Hartsdale facility, and Bob was Noah's boss at some point (still confused about the Thompson, Bob, Noah hierarchy), so it must have come up.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-21 01:36 pm (UTC)Yes, it is.
Which, in light of the thirty year time line and the ages of most of the second generation, is interesting and does suggest Adam was the threat.
This reminds me: both Hiro and Peter would have been born after Adam got locked up, but Nathan and Matt of course already existed. Niki just about, though it's questionable whether Hal Sanders had any connections to the Twelve. However... drumroll.... what about Shanti and Mohinder? Wouldn't 30 years ago be just the right time for Shanti to die and Mohinder to get born, or did we get a definite different age for Mohinder (can't remember) in season 1? So far, we've been assuming that the Company, meaning the guys not Adam, might have developed the original virus to begin with. However, what if Bob didn't lie when he said Adam talked of plagues etc. to reduce humanity, and he was the one to come up with a virus that would make all the others (and their children) dependent him, his regenerating blood, if they misbehaved, and that for the less cynical, more idealistic group they were back in the 70s was that?
Elle clearly almost never leaves the Hartsdale facility, and Bob was Noah's boss at some point (still confused about the Thompson, Bob, Noah hierarchy), so it must have come up.
IMO Bob didn't rise from the ranks to the top until recently, i.e. when Linderman and Thompson both dying gave him an opening. After all, Sandra knew him as "regional sales manager", and if he was around enough to meet the wife, that makes him far lower in the hierarchy than Linderman, of whose existence as a Company chief Noah, Mr. Middle Management, knew nothing. So I'd say he was below Thompson or of theoretical equal rank - i.e. also heading a facility, Hartsdale, not Odessa - but in practice below because Thompson was Linderman's right hand man.
Maths, though - Noah joined the Company 15, now 16 years ago (since we're now in spring 2007 in the Heroes timeline). Elle is 24; according to her own memories, she first manifested when she was 6 and the second time when she was 9 which was when she was brought in, right? (They might have wiped the memory of the experiments from her mind, but she seems to be certain about the age.) This would mean said experiments happened briefly BEFORE Noah got Claire.
...no wonder he didn't want to get close at first. Otoh, probably says something about Noah that he could see this still as justifiable for the greater good at the time....
Peter and Nathan, though, there's little excuse for. Angela probably knew what was up during the car crash, and she definitely knew in episode2. The fact that they were nonetheless not directly brought in means that the Elders don't follow their own rules.
Now I 'm having visions of:
After the car crash:
Linderman: Sorry about your daughter-in-law. It was just supposed to bring your son to his senses. Speaking of whom. My man x tells me he flew from the car. And later your other son was seen ranting about dreams in the hospital. Methinks your boys are due for an examination.
Angela *disdainful look*: You can't be serious.
Linderman: But...
Angela: I'm a bereaved widow and you're talking about this to me now?
Linderman: goes back to Vegas.
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Date: 2007-11-21 02:14 pm (UTC)We do, actually. They gave us the year that Shanti died in as 1972 (maybe 73) in S1, so Mohinder is thirty four. Which yet again complicates their time line. At least, if Shanti's virus was created by the Company rather than found and messed with, it does.
However, what if Bob didn't lie when he said Adam talked of plagues etc. to reduce humanity, and he was the one to come up with a virus that would make all the others (and their children) dependent him, his regenerating blood, if they misbehaved, and that for the less cynical, more idealistic group they were back in the 70s was that?
Ooooh, interesting. Adam could have seized on the Shanti virus and purposefully infected a few members of the twelve to keep them beholden, and that's when everyone else rebelled to take him down. Of course, that doesn't really paint the Elders as bad guys, so either a few of them were complicit, or they were intending to use the virus in their own way anyway.
IMO Bob didn't rise from the ranks to the top until recently, i.e. when Linderman and Thompson both dying gave him an opening.
That's generally what I think, but the direct reference to Primatech threw me off. I know the Hartsdale stuff has the logo, but for some reason I was under the impression only the Odessa facility was actually called that. Hm.
she first manifested when she was 6 and the second time when she was 9 which was when she was brought in, right? (They might have wiped the memory of the experiments from her mind, but she seems to be certain about the age.)
Second time was when she was eight (knocking out the power grid), and then she skips to being nine and drugged up. Could be a whole missing year of experimentation there.
...no wonder he didn't want to get close at first. Otoh, probably says something about Noah that he could see this still as justifiable for the greater good at the time....
And that after having witnessed what was done to Elle he would still shoot Claude for not bringing a mutant in.
Angela: I'm a bereaved widow and you're talking about this to me now?
Linderman: goes back to Vegas.
Hee. In general, I don't think any of the other Elders were keen on the idea of 1) attempting to make Angela do something she didn't want to do, or 2) having more Petrellis running around the Company.
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Date: 2007-11-21 12:55 pm (UTC)I was wondering about that, too. The fact that Adam is immortal doesn't warrant to lock him up but if he kept it a secret and the 12 gang found out later that would change things. I would question his motives to form this heroes supergang and ask myself what he had been doing for the past centuries and why he didn't try to save the world before. But I also think that it's a natural reaction to mistrust someone that old; 400 years of life experience can be intimidating - well except for Peter who was more impressed that Adam still looked hot. *g*
While we're talking of Sandra, may I say I'm eternally grateful for that one tiny moment where she pulls her hand away. Because I wanted Sandra once, just once, NOT forgive Noah immediately.
I agree. Sandra and Angela are slowly but steadily becoming my favorite female characters of this show. I still love Claire but these two woman have so much potential as characters and I guess it helps that they are portrayed by such stellar actresses.
Way back when, in the Sylar situation, he got close to killing another human being, but because he needed to do the monologuing and punishing, he didn't go through with it until Sylar had regained the upper hand. This time, though, he did it, and the road to morally grey is complete.
Interesting observation regarding the contrast to the Sylar scene. Those situations could not have been more different - just the "You killed my fater - prepare to die" and "Please don't do this" contrast beautifully the emotional and moral place Mohinder was in those scenes and sum up the change in his motivations. He changed his revenge vendetta for trying to do the right thing for everyone involved and tragically enough that resulted in his first actual killing.
I think Elle expressed everyone's feelings during that awkward Bennet-West scene with her eyeroll. *g*
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Date: 2007-11-21 01:12 pm (UTC)That, and/or: if he had, what happened to the previous teams? One or several could also have found documents about Adam's life in previous centuries, and activities which didn't jell with his current claims.
just the "You killed my father - prepare to die" and "Please don't do this" contrast beautifully the emotional and moral place Mohinder was in those scenes and sum up the change in his motivations. He changed his revenge vendetta for trying to do the right thing for everyone involved and tragically enough that resulted in his first actual killing.
Yes. He's selfless in the second scene, trying to right thing, whereas in the former, it's all about his own father and Sylar having played him - and it's such a beautiful irony that this second scenario and looking out for the greater good is the one that makes him a killer, not the former.
It also says something about fandom that the reaction to Mohinder nearly killing Sylar and torturing him somewhat in Parasite resulted in "oh, Mohinder is hot!" reactions whereas Mohinder being surrounded by bad choices - there is no good one he could have made in this situation - and acting to save two people right then and a great deal of the population later on results in Mohinder bashing like you wouldn't believe.
(Also that HRG shooting Claude just because Thompson said so and shooting Ivan after torturing him to get a picture makes him a bad-ass antihero, but Mohinder shooting HRG makes for hte above named reasons Mohinder a villain.)