Well now...
May. 14th, 2008 03:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakMy ongoing issues with the Life on Mars finale notwithstanding, I still don't think either poor Sam Tyler or his creators deserved this. The horror....
Somewhere in the metaverse, I imagine this conversation between various characters played by John Simm:
Sam Tyler: That settles it. Not in a coma, not back in time. A universe that allows this must be mad. *looks at Beefcake!American!Sam and wants the Test Card Girl back*
Cal MacCaffrey: I think someone has problems with our physique. I mean, they cast Russell Crowe as me. I rest my case.
The Master: *looks extremely smug* Speak for yourselves. I think the latest action figure based on me just went on sale.
Sam: Two words, before you start to gloat: Eric Roberts.
***
Re-reading Brian Bendis' Breakout, the first trade collection of the New Avengers, is always amusing - Bendis is great with the banter - and I always hit the same stumping point. Which comes when they're all in the Savage Land, Wolverine turns up, and everyone asks him what he's doing there. Because, you know, that is pretty much meta. As is the Captain America - Iron Man conversation at the end, in which poor Tony has to come up with an explanation why they need Logan in their team and finds nothing but a soup ingredient metaphor. Because frankly, the only real reason I can think of is that this was when Wolverine was basically everywhere in the Marvelverse because the character was so popular, whether or not his presence made sense.
(Vaughan's Runaways does a great send-up of this while indulging in the same practice; during the first visit of our teenaged heroes in New York City, we open with a Wolverine panel and Iron Man commenting "a Wolverine appearance; how novel".)
Seriously, I don't claim to be a Logan expert, but I can't imagine why he'd want to be an Avenger (if he wants to hang out in a team, he is already one of the X-men), and from a writing pov, the "blunt, no nonsense character" position within this line-up of the New Avengers is already occupied by Luke Cage. Ah well.
***
Speaking of guest stars getting a prominent billing: back when s3 of New Who was broadcast, I remember some posts complaining Jack was "wasted" in the three episodes he guest starred in. This year, similar complaints were voiced about Martha's stint both on Torchwood s2 and now on DW s4. I don't feel this way, which I think may be due to what I expect, or don't expect, when a former supporting character comes back for more than one episode but not on a regular basis. . If it's just one episode, it's another matter, plus it depends on what the overall story demands at this point. For example, Sarah Jane coming back for School Reunion and only School Reunion in season 2, as the first Old Who companion to guest star, meant that while School Reunion wasn't exclusively about Sarah Jane, she and her relationship with the Doctor, and Rose's reaction to her and all her existence implied were more important than the villain of the week, even if said villain was played by Anthony Stewart Head. Or, to pick an example from another fandom, Oz coming back for the BTVS episode New Moon Rising for some direly needed resolution of his relationship with Willow meant Oz had to be a central character in this episode. If, on the other hand, he had rejoined the ensemble for three or so episodes, I expect he'd only have gotten two or so character exploration scenes.
What I, personally, had expected from Jack in s3 of DW and Martha on both TW and DW s4 was what I got, which meant I was happy with their appearances. Obviously, regarding Jack I wanted the circumstances of his departure addressed (from a Watsonian perspective; we all knew the Doylist reason was that he got his own spin-off), plus at that point despite one entire season of Torchwood we still had no idea about his personal time line, when he had come back to Earth, etc., so I wanted that cleared up as well. What I didn't expect were the last three episodes to be all about Jack, or even with Jack in a central position. On DW, he's a supporting recurring character, not a regular companion, he was in s1, and again in s3. In s1, the regular companion, Rose, got more screentime and a bigger role in the narrative during the last three episodes with Jack as a recurring character (after his initial introduction); in s3, the same was true of Martha. So the amount of screentime and character interaction Jack got during his s3 episodes didn't seem unfair or wasted to me, they were what I had expected, they gave me what I wanted, and that was that.
With Martha in s2 of TW and s4 of DW, it was a similar case. (Minus the repeated use of the "gets captured" plot device.) I love the character, so I was happy to see her on both shows, but I hadn't expected her to be, on either show, as central to the proceedings as the now current regulars. On Torchwood, she was a sympathetic outsider, used to trigger some reactions from the regulars (Tosh finding the courage to ask Owen out, for example, and of course Owen saving her life, plus later responding to seeing himself possibly replaced by her) and to give us insight into what was going on with said regulars in a way we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. I can't imagine Dead!Owen having the conversations he has with Martha in Dead Man Walking and A Day in the Death with the other Torchwoodians, plus Jack's initial "end of the world survivor's club" conversation with Martha showcases him as DW Jack, who is somewhat different than TW Jack, and again, this would not have been possible with a member of his team. In addition to this, we got some news on how Martha had been doing since last we saw her, but none of it was central to the episodes she appeared in; in short, she was a recurring supporting character while the central spotlight was on the regulars, again, as I had expected.
Martha during the last three episodes on DW was a slightly different matter, as she had been a regular last season, plus there were unresolved issues from last season. Still, now she is recurring, and I hadn't expected the episodes to be All About Martha. What I had wanted in advance was this: the Doctor seeing that she's doing well on her own, Martha getting to know Donna, Martha and the Doctor as friends now that the unrequited crush was out of the way, the three of them having adventures together. All of which I got. Furthermore: In The Sontaran Strategem, Martha was the way both the audience and the Doctor were re-introduced to the new UNIT, which worked far better than if the Doctor had crossed paths with them without anyone he knows present, in The Poison Sky, Clone!Martha was a plausible explanation why no nuclear weapons were used and allowed for a touching and shades of grey scene with Real!Martha in her demise, and in The Doctor's Daughter, Martha allowed us to see the other side of the conflict going through the episode. The format of the show means we get evil and/or invasion-minded aliens more often than not, so in a story featuring a pointless war, it would have been counterproductive if one side had just been presented as shooting troops. (If you're keeping count, the Hath, after the Ood and the Adipose, are the third sympathetic non-human species this season; possibly a new record at least in terms of recent DW seasons?) Which meant either Martha or Donna as view point characters had to be with the Hath. Honestly, I think it worked far better this way than if Martha and Donna had been in reverse positions. Using her medical skills and making her way across the land is what Martha does, whereas Donna confronting the Doctor with emotional realities (and being Supertemp, natch) is what she does best. None of the DW relationships and characters are interchangable. I can't imagine the Doctor having the "I've been a father before" conversation in this way with either Martha or Rose; conversely, Donna in Martha's place wouldn't have been able to fix the shoulder of the injured Hath, would have remained a prisoner and then would have tried to escape which would have been a whole different storyline and one without painting the Hath in a sympathetic light.
In conclusion: no complaints about waste of guest stars from this viewer. Your mileage may differ. After all, we are all watching different shows - and that's okay .
***
Lastly, a couple of links of the fanfic and meta persuasion, both DW and Iron Man, as these fandoms are currently on my mind right now:
Doctor Who fanfic recs:
Episode 4.06. offers one of these scenarios practically demanding more fanfic. Two fantastic and intense Doctor povs:
Subterranean: there are a lot of great writers in DW fandom, each with their own strengths and specialities (i.e. some are better with this incarnation of the Doctor, some with that companion...);![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
versaphile writes hands down the best Tenth Doctor around, and she proves this once more with this missing scene.
and
Daddy Issues, by Rickmaniac: also a great and believable Doctor perspective on Recent Events.
The Poison Sky gave us new information on a much-beloved Old Who character, the Brigadier. Someone took said information and used it in this superb and delightful Brig fic:
The New Year Honour List
Iron Man meta rec:
Comicverse, not movieverse, but you movie people should check it out anyway, since it's written in a fashion understandable for newbies and investigates something that is probably going to show up in the movies, too, sooner or later. Comicverse Tony gets shipped most often with Steve Rogers (Captain America), which on one level is one of these idealist/pragmatist pairings and on another uses two different ideas about America as... well, read this great essay about Iron Man, Captain America, ideological conflict and balance and see for yourself!
Somewhere in the metaverse, I imagine this conversation between various characters played by John Simm:
Sam Tyler: That settles it. Not in a coma, not back in time. A universe that allows this must be mad. *looks at Beefcake!American!Sam and wants the Test Card Girl back*
Cal MacCaffrey: I think someone has problems with our physique. I mean, they cast Russell Crowe as me. I rest my case.
The Master: *looks extremely smug* Speak for yourselves. I think the latest action figure based on me just went on sale.
Sam: Two words, before you start to gloat: Eric Roberts.
***
Re-reading Brian Bendis' Breakout, the first trade collection of the New Avengers, is always amusing - Bendis is great with the banter - and I always hit the same stumping point. Which comes when they're all in the Savage Land, Wolverine turns up, and everyone asks him what he's doing there. Because, you know, that is pretty much meta. As is the Captain America - Iron Man conversation at the end, in which poor Tony has to come up with an explanation why they need Logan in their team and finds nothing but a soup ingredient metaphor. Because frankly, the only real reason I can think of is that this was when Wolverine was basically everywhere in the Marvelverse because the character was so popular, whether or not his presence made sense.
(Vaughan's Runaways does a great send-up of this while indulging in the same practice; during the first visit of our teenaged heroes in New York City, we open with a Wolverine panel and Iron Man commenting "a Wolverine appearance; how novel".)
Seriously, I don't claim to be a Logan expert, but I can't imagine why he'd want to be an Avenger (if he wants to hang out in a team, he is already one of the X-men), and from a writing pov, the "blunt, no nonsense character" position within this line-up of the New Avengers is already occupied by Luke Cage. Ah well.
***
Speaking of guest stars getting a prominent billing: back when s3 of New Who was broadcast, I remember some posts complaining Jack was "wasted" in the three episodes he guest starred in. This year, similar complaints were voiced about Martha's stint both on Torchwood s2 and now on DW s4. I don't feel this way, which I think may be due to what I expect, or don't expect, when a former supporting character comes back for more than one episode but not on a regular basis. . If it's just one episode, it's another matter, plus it depends on what the overall story demands at this point. For example, Sarah Jane coming back for School Reunion and only School Reunion in season 2, as the first Old Who companion to guest star, meant that while School Reunion wasn't exclusively about Sarah Jane, she and her relationship with the Doctor, and Rose's reaction to her and all her existence implied were more important than the villain of the week, even if said villain was played by Anthony Stewart Head. Or, to pick an example from another fandom, Oz coming back for the BTVS episode New Moon Rising for some direly needed resolution of his relationship with Willow meant Oz had to be a central character in this episode. If, on the other hand, he had rejoined the ensemble for three or so episodes, I expect he'd only have gotten two or so character exploration scenes.
What I, personally, had expected from Jack in s3 of DW and Martha on both TW and DW s4 was what I got, which meant I was happy with their appearances. Obviously, regarding Jack I wanted the circumstances of his departure addressed (from a Watsonian perspective; we all knew the Doylist reason was that he got his own spin-off), plus at that point despite one entire season of Torchwood we still had no idea about his personal time line, when he had come back to Earth, etc., so I wanted that cleared up as well. What I didn't expect were the last three episodes to be all about Jack, or even with Jack in a central position. On DW, he's a supporting recurring character, not a regular companion, he was in s1, and again in s3. In s1, the regular companion, Rose, got more screentime and a bigger role in the narrative during the last three episodes with Jack as a recurring character (after his initial introduction); in s3, the same was true of Martha. So the amount of screentime and character interaction Jack got during his s3 episodes didn't seem unfair or wasted to me, they were what I had expected, they gave me what I wanted, and that was that.
With Martha in s2 of TW and s4 of DW, it was a similar case. (Minus the repeated use of the "gets captured" plot device.) I love the character, so I was happy to see her on both shows, but I hadn't expected her to be, on either show, as central to the proceedings as the now current regulars. On Torchwood, she was a sympathetic outsider, used to trigger some reactions from the regulars (Tosh finding the courage to ask Owen out, for example, and of course Owen saving her life, plus later responding to seeing himself possibly replaced by her) and to give us insight into what was going on with said regulars in a way we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. I can't imagine Dead!Owen having the conversations he has with Martha in Dead Man Walking and A Day in the Death with the other Torchwoodians, plus Jack's initial "end of the world survivor's club" conversation with Martha showcases him as DW Jack, who is somewhat different than TW Jack, and again, this would not have been possible with a member of his team. In addition to this, we got some news on how Martha had been doing since last we saw her, but none of it was central to the episodes she appeared in; in short, she was a recurring supporting character while the central spotlight was on the regulars, again, as I had expected.
Martha during the last three episodes on DW was a slightly different matter, as she had been a regular last season, plus there were unresolved issues from last season. Still, now she is recurring, and I hadn't expected the episodes to be All About Martha. What I had wanted in advance was this: the Doctor seeing that she's doing well on her own, Martha getting to know Donna, Martha and the Doctor as friends now that the unrequited crush was out of the way, the three of them having adventures together. All of which I got. Furthermore: In The Sontaran Strategem, Martha was the way both the audience and the Doctor were re-introduced to the new UNIT, which worked far better than if the Doctor had crossed paths with them without anyone he knows present, in The Poison Sky, Clone!Martha was a plausible explanation why no nuclear weapons were used and allowed for a touching and shades of grey scene with Real!Martha in her demise, and in The Doctor's Daughter, Martha allowed us to see the other side of the conflict going through the episode. The format of the show means we get evil and/or invasion-minded aliens more often than not, so in a story featuring a pointless war, it would have been counterproductive if one side had just been presented as shooting troops. (If you're keeping count, the Hath, after the Ood and the Adipose, are the third sympathetic non-human species this season; possibly a new record at least in terms of recent DW seasons?) Which meant either Martha or Donna as view point characters had to be with the Hath. Honestly, I think it worked far better this way than if Martha and Donna had been in reverse positions. Using her medical skills and making her way across the land is what Martha does, whereas Donna confronting the Doctor with emotional realities (and being Supertemp, natch) is what she does best. None of the DW relationships and characters are interchangable. I can't imagine the Doctor having the "I've been a father before" conversation in this way with either Martha or Rose; conversely, Donna in Martha's place wouldn't have been able to fix the shoulder of the injured Hath, would have remained a prisoner and then would have tried to escape which would have been a whole different storyline and one without painting the Hath in a sympathetic light.
In conclusion: no complaints about waste of guest stars from this viewer. Your mileage may differ. After all, we are all watching different shows - and that's okay .
***
Lastly, a couple of links of the fanfic and meta persuasion, both DW and Iron Man, as these fandoms are currently on my mind right now:
Doctor Who fanfic recs:
Episode 4.06. offers one of these scenarios practically demanding more fanfic. Two fantastic and intense Doctor povs:
Subterranean: there are a lot of great writers in DW fandom, each with their own strengths and specialities (i.e. some are better with this incarnation of the Doctor, some with that companion...);
versaphile writes hands down the best Tenth Doctor around, and she proves this once more with this missing scene. and
Daddy Issues, by Rickmaniac: also a great and believable Doctor perspective on Recent Events.
The Poison Sky gave us new information on a much-beloved Old Who character, the Brigadier. Someone took said information and used it in this superb and delightful Brig fic:
The New Year Honour List
Iron Man meta rec:
Comicverse, not movieverse, but you movie people should check it out anyway, since it's written in a fashion understandable for newbies and investigates something that is probably going to show up in the movies, too, sooner or later. Comicverse Tony gets shipped most often with Steve Rogers (Captain America), which on one level is one of these idealist/pragmatist pairings and on another uses two different ideas about America as... well, read this great essay about Iron Man, Captain America, ideological conflict and balance and see for yourself!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 12:50 pm (UTC)I don't think I can express how much I love this post. It's like you took *all* my thoughts on this subject and wrote them down word-for-word.
Oh and thank you again for all your awesome recs - And now I wish I had more time for reading.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 01:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 12:55 pm (UTC)As for Wolverine, I was wondering if he wanted to be part of a more accountable, no-killing team after the great brainwashed slaughter of the Millar run on his own title, but that idea went out the window just a few pages in. And yes, Luke Cage and Spiderwoman have the "no-nonsense" and "rather vicious actually" positions covered on that team.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 01:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 01:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 01:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:00 pm (UTC)Ooh, thank you for the Iron Man link. Actually, I've been meaning to tell you: your previous links led me to discover a) the comicsverse, and b) the joys of Tony/Steve, which I have fallen really hard for as a pairing. Which, um, led me to my nearest (and most excellent) comic shop, where I have now started budgeting for all the most essential bits of the Civil War arc. And by 'essential,' I of course mean 'seriously slashy.'
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:07 pm (UTC)Quite. If they had just taken the basic "contemporary cop wakes up in 1973 and isn't sure" concept but have come up with their own characters based on American cop show archetypes, it would at least look interesting...
And by 'essential,' I of course mean 'seriously slashy.'
Naturally.*g* Buy anything by Bendis, Cage and the Knaufs and avoid most of the other writers, and you should be set. Oh, and Brubaker and Jeph Loeb for the immediate post-Civil War stuff; they 'ship them madly, too.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:20 pm (UTC)I'm gonna be over here with my avis of John Simm LOM & Ashes to Ashes.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:26 pm (UTC)Also: Annie looks too average-generically-attractive. Andy & I loved Liz White with her big eyes & moon face... and is the friendly narrator-esque cop supposed to be Ray?? WTF seriously.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:38 pm (UTC)::cries TEARS OF BLOOD::
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Date: 2008-05-14 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 03:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 03:34 pm (UTC)Something I found interesting to my reaction to Martha on Torchwood was how much I resented her being there - which astonished me because I had liked her a lot as companion on Doctor Who. On Torchwood she felt like the interloper, someone who I was worried would take away screen time from the 'real' cast members because of her unique position in relation to the show.
I felt something similar on Doctor Who - she seemed very glib and cocky, and I think this was particularly a problem because I was just settling down into getting used to the new Donna/Doctor relationship, so to have as 'powerful' a character as Martha reappear felt threatening to that dynamic. hence I actually far preferred The Doctor's Daughter where Martha was mostly off doing her own separate thing.
As I say, all very emotional reactions, far more than how I would normally react to a guest character.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 04:38 pm (UTC)Re: dynamics on DW in those three eps - see, what I especially loved was how the Donna/Doctor relationship proved to be inclusive, not exclusive. I.e. both when Martha and when Jenny were in the mix, no one was overshadowed, there was no feeling of privilege and exclusion, and this made me appreciate this particular Doctor/Companion combination all the more. I mean, I love them on their own (they've already become my favourite New Who Team TARDIS), but I also love that they work so well together with others, which I wouldn't have known if I hadn't seen it in practice.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-15 05:59 am (UTC)I was fine with her, just enjoying the plot. The one I was anxious about was K9 because I do remember him and I loathed him - and actually he turned out to not be as irritating as I remember. I was also a bit over-anxious for Tony Head to be good, and was disappointed with his role. So overall it was a bit of an emotional turmoil and my reaction to Sarah Jane was right at the bottom of the heap. So it definitely seems to be that for me at least my previous knowledge of a guest star or character is very important.
Yes, having taken the possibility of romantic attachment out of the mix for Donna makes her far more capable of behaving reasonably with other people and hence with the Doctor himself - it feels like she is an adult after a set of teenagers. I like that. Watching teenagers is fun for a while but then it always is nice to have adults for a change - rather like when I first saw Firefly and realised how nice it was to have adults after all the Buffy kids.
It was also setting up an odd overall dynamic whereby companions like Martha and Jack are 'children' when with the Doctor and have to leave him to 'grow up'. That probably works given that DW is a children's show so the companion as POV character for the children has many advantages. It also explains some of the odd dissonance between Jack on DW and Jack on Torchwood.
Hmm, I rather like that idea - it explains all sorts of things. I think I'm going to think about it some more and then turn it into a full meta post.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 04:43 pm (UTC)*shrugs*
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Date: 2008-05-14 04:51 pm (UTC)And hey, Joss keeps him around for the Moose factor. But anyway, does he have significant stories within the New Avengers? I honestly don't know, I just read the first six issues and some of the last ones before Civil War.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 05:01 pm (UTC)My point is more that while it's fair to say Wolverine's overused he also manages to be underused at the same time. I mean, I like that he's not front and center in Astonishing, but I can't recall that any other Xmen writers used him in that time in any significant way. So, yeah, Quesada made Bendis stick him in the book, but I think the conception that he was a major part of Xmen and Avengers at the same time doesn't totally match the reality.
I don't mean to be touchy about this but it's one of those situations (like "Jean Grey dies all the time") that gets repeated as received wisdom so much that it kind of looms larger than the reality. And I've apparently become really sensitive to Wolverine-bashing (which I know you weren't really doing, but that's why I say sensitive :))
no subject
Date: 2008-05-14 08:38 pm (UTC)I don't know if I can watch this.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-15 04:48 am (UTC)