15 Unpopular Opinions
Jul. 25th, 2008 01:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakSo, it's unpopular opinion meme time again, is it? FINE. To hell with fannish neutrality and even temper. I shall hold nothing back! Be afraid. Be very afraid.
1) Shakespeare didn't retire to Stratford soon enough. And don't give me that crap about the sublimemness of The Tempest. He embarassed himself with Henry VIII afterwards, and while we're at it, The Tempest could have used an editor or two. Pointing out to him he should make up his mind about whether Antonio has a son or not, among other things.
2) Shaw's last act for Cymbeline is ever so much better than the real thing. I know GBS often gets accused of putting plot over character and writing only clever puppets voicing his opinions, but leaving aside he created some of my favourite characters in theatrical literature, he and Shakes provide an ideal counterbalance to each other.
3) Horatio is overrated as a character, and Hamlet/Horatio as a 'ship. I mean, I get you like the well-dressed quiet guy who in later acts suddenly spouts the occasional snarky remark, especially with the canon relationship with Hamlet, but do we ever find out what makes him tick? The second gravedigger has more character, and he's only around for one scene.
4) Sorry, can't see the Crazy Elsinore Incest. Sure, Laertes is overprotective and hung up on his sister, but not in a sexual way. Such brothers do exist. As for the other 'cesty pairing, Hamlet (Junior)/Gertrude - I'll grant you some subconscious murkiness, but I think the real reason for all his "Mum, you're disgusting for having sex" rants is simply his natural prig-ness, rather than Oedipal urges.
5) I like Romeo and Juliet and don't think Mercutio is the only good character in that play, so there. Also, Romeo/Juliet and Romeo/Mercutio are absolutely compatible, so I don't get what that shipper war is about anyway, plus if you can't stand Romeo, why the hell are you shipping him with Mercutio in the first place?
6) On the other hand, I'll never forgive Shakes what he did to Helena by making her end up with bloody Bertram. I mean, Bertram makes Claudio from Much Ado about Nothing look enlightened. He makes Angelo in Measure for Measure look like a feminist and a good catch. He's so absolutely revolting in his callow smugness, and Helena, clever, witty, awesome Helena is first made to pine after him, then she has to put up with his rejections, and then ending up with him is supposed to be her happy ending. Bah.
7) Killing off Cordelia was the right thing to do in Lear, and no, I don't think it was just to give Lear more emo and kick the audience in the gut one more time. On the other hand, killing off the Fool off-stage? That's just over the top gratitious cruelty, Will.
8) I like Benedick/Beatrice as much as the next fangirl, but my favourite m/f couple is Macbeth/Lady Macbeth. This was Shakes finally giving us something other than boy meets girl; a messed up relationship, absolutely, but an adult one. They're mythic.
9) No matter how many denial fics are out there where Hal after breaking up with Falstaff changes his mind and grovels and apologizes and saves him from dying in Henry V, I still like canon better. Because given how these two were characterised before, I just can't buy into a happy life together. Also, I hate all the Katherine bashing and/or writing her out so she won't be in the way in the denial fics.
10) Not that Shakes is above doing such stuff himself. I mean, what's up with killing off Portia, a woman previously characterized as being strong, and having an equal partners type of relationship with her husband, in such a "oh suddenly she's a sobbing mess who can't do without him" manner just so Brutus and Cassius can do some more manly bonding over her death in Julius Caesar? And don't give that "it's history" stuff, since when did our Will care about history? (See also: his other plays.)
11) Someone should write Mark Antony/Octavius Caesar. Admittedly this is an opinion entirely caused by the way the RSC production of Antony and Cleopatra with Patrick Stewart two years ago had him flirt with Octavius just to mess with the guy's mind, but suddenly this totally worked for me, and I'm frustrated there is no fanfic.
12) There is no excuse for what Shakes did to Jeanne d'Arc in Henry VI, Part II, including English patriotism. I mean, if Aischylos was able to give the Persians some dignity... Bastard.
13) Richard II deserved to die for all those lengthy boring speeches alone. Otoh, Bolingbroke entirely deserved Hal.
14) I wish Shakes had found some other way to work out his issues about callow good-looking young noblemen than by inserting the type again and again in his work. I mean, Bassanio is less objectionable than Bertram, but just because Gratiano is around to be more hate-able. We get it, Will, you had issues and a fetish, but surely, that was what the sonnets were there for?
15) Which brings me to the spin-offs. I mean, I'd root for The Author/Mr. W.H., canon slash and all, but why on earth should I care about some male bimbo about whom we never hear more than that he's blond, noble and at some point shags the author's female lover? Dull, I tell you. The most interesting character in the sonnets isn't either The Youth or The Author, but The Dark Lady, who has non-idealized relationships with either and seems to have come out of same neither dead nor in despair, but on top. Definitely my favourite. You can keep the guys.
No bards or certain repeating patterns in many a fandom were harmed in the production of this meme.
1) Shakespeare didn't retire to Stratford soon enough. And don't give me that crap about the sublimemness of The Tempest. He embarassed himself with Henry VIII afterwards, and while we're at it, The Tempest could have used an editor or two. Pointing out to him he should make up his mind about whether Antonio has a son or not, among other things.
2) Shaw's last act for Cymbeline is ever so much better than the real thing. I know GBS often gets accused of putting plot over character and writing only clever puppets voicing his opinions, but leaving aside he created some of my favourite characters in theatrical literature, he and Shakes provide an ideal counterbalance to each other.
3) Horatio is overrated as a character, and Hamlet/Horatio as a 'ship. I mean, I get you like the well-dressed quiet guy who in later acts suddenly spouts the occasional snarky remark, especially with the canon relationship with Hamlet, but do we ever find out what makes him tick? The second gravedigger has more character, and he's only around for one scene.
4) Sorry, can't see the Crazy Elsinore Incest. Sure, Laertes is overprotective and hung up on his sister, but not in a sexual way. Such brothers do exist. As for the other 'cesty pairing, Hamlet (Junior)/Gertrude - I'll grant you some subconscious murkiness, but I think the real reason for all his "Mum, you're disgusting for having sex" rants is simply his natural prig-ness, rather than Oedipal urges.
5) I like Romeo and Juliet and don't think Mercutio is the only good character in that play, so there. Also, Romeo/Juliet and Romeo/Mercutio are absolutely compatible, so I don't get what that shipper war is about anyway, plus if you can't stand Romeo, why the hell are you shipping him with Mercutio in the first place?
6) On the other hand, I'll never forgive Shakes what he did to Helena by making her end up with bloody Bertram. I mean, Bertram makes Claudio from Much Ado about Nothing look enlightened. He makes Angelo in Measure for Measure look like a feminist and a good catch. He's so absolutely revolting in his callow smugness, and Helena, clever, witty, awesome Helena is first made to pine after him, then she has to put up with his rejections, and then ending up with him is supposed to be her happy ending. Bah.
7) Killing off Cordelia was the right thing to do in Lear, and no, I don't think it was just to give Lear more emo and kick the audience in the gut one more time. On the other hand, killing off the Fool off-stage? That's just over the top gratitious cruelty, Will.
8) I like Benedick/Beatrice as much as the next fangirl, but my favourite m/f couple is Macbeth/Lady Macbeth. This was Shakes finally giving us something other than boy meets girl; a messed up relationship, absolutely, but an adult one. They're mythic.
9) No matter how many denial fics are out there where Hal after breaking up with Falstaff changes his mind and grovels and apologizes and saves him from dying in Henry V, I still like canon better. Because given how these two were characterised before, I just can't buy into a happy life together. Also, I hate all the Katherine bashing and/or writing her out so she won't be in the way in the denial fics.
10) Not that Shakes is above doing such stuff himself. I mean, what's up with killing off Portia, a woman previously characterized as being strong, and having an equal partners type of relationship with her husband, in such a "oh suddenly she's a sobbing mess who can't do without him" manner just so Brutus and Cassius can do some more manly bonding over her death in Julius Caesar? And don't give that "it's history" stuff, since when did our Will care about history? (See also: his other plays.)
11) Someone should write Mark Antony/Octavius Caesar. Admittedly this is an opinion entirely caused by the way the RSC production of Antony and Cleopatra with Patrick Stewart two years ago had him flirt with Octavius just to mess with the guy's mind, but suddenly this totally worked for me, and I'm frustrated there is no fanfic.
12) There is no excuse for what Shakes did to Jeanne d'Arc in Henry VI, Part II, including English patriotism. I mean, if Aischylos was able to give the Persians some dignity... Bastard.
13) Richard II deserved to die for all those lengthy boring speeches alone. Otoh, Bolingbroke entirely deserved Hal.
14) I wish Shakes had found some other way to work out his issues about callow good-looking young noblemen than by inserting the type again and again in his work. I mean, Bassanio is less objectionable than Bertram, but just because Gratiano is around to be more hate-able. We get it, Will, you had issues and a fetish, but surely, that was what the sonnets were there for?
15) Which brings me to the spin-offs. I mean, I'd root for The Author/Mr. W.H., canon slash and all, but why on earth should I care about some male bimbo about whom we never hear more than that he's blond, noble and at some point shags the author's female lover? Dull, I tell you. The most interesting character in the sonnets isn't either The Youth or The Author, but The Dark Lady, who has non-idealized relationships with either and seems to have come out of same neither dead nor in despair, but on top. Definitely my favourite. You can keep the guys.
No bards or certain repeating patterns in many a fandom were harmed in the production of this meme.
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no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:11 am (UTC)Ha! I thought I was the only one who had a problem with Cordelia dying but apparently it's a popular opinion!
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:25 am (UTC)also, i can't believe that people really like horatio. as in - really? what is there to like?
but the tempest is great though :( one of my favourites.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:48 am (UTC)(7) For the last time, he's talking about Cordelia being hanged! OK, it's a bit lazy to just have the Fool wander off after the storm scene with no real explanation, but that's what fanfic's for. I read a great one a while back where Lear dumping him for the new cool thing in the shape of Poor Tom causes the scales to fall from his eyes about believing that the aristocracy will ever give a toss about you and he becomes a militant Leveller and shoots Albany in the face. (I can't believe people actually think Albany's a likable or decent human being, it's just that the other characters are so OTT evil and his wife's a ho. If he'd been there when the eye-gouging happened he'd have been cheering it on with the other.)
(8) Beatrice/Benedick isn't adult? They're both grown-ups who know about the potential to get hurt and work past it, that's why I love them. You're secretly one of those arrested adolescents who thinks OTT "darkness" = adult, aren't you?
(9) Absolutely.
(13) Yep.
(14) No, it's not Shakespeare's sex kinks, it's bloody Burbage and his insistence that the core comedy demographic can only sympathise with other rich white dudes like themselves. Art is not produced in an economic vacuum.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 12:54 pm (UTC)That's it, basically.
Except that, clearly, the best character in R&J was the Nurse.
I feel a sudden urge to listen to The Kingmaker again.no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 12:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 01:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 01:34 pm (UTC)God, totally. It's not like they're The Duchess/Ferdinand over in Malfi fandom---and btw, if I see one more OOC fic where the Duchess forgets Antonio and the Pile Of Dead Babies and decides she really wanted her twin brother after all, fulfilling the maxim that 'if he obsessively loves me enough, he should be rewarded with requitement,' AND buying in to the whole Leather Pants Ferdinand thing, I'm just leaving this fandom forever. I hear good things about Marlowe fandom: I mean, all the slash...
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 01:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 02:20 pm (UTC)Also, my favourite m/f couple is Macbeth/Lady Macbeth.
YES! YES YES YES YES! (That might also be because - or the reason why - "Macbeth" is my favorite play!! OK, also "Twelfth Night." It's a tie.)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 02:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 04:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 05:30 pm (UTC)But, but, re:10, Oh no you didn't. Portia ate red hot coals like a real Roman. none of this flailing disembowelment with go on and on speeches. Not even Lucretia-esq go get em,stabyness. Just gotta take care of honor business, bring on the burning rocks..
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 06:01 pm (UTC)Heh. I'll bet you didn't think this would generate actual controvery, did you? ;-)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 10:18 pm (UTC)Bertram makes Claudio from Much Ado about Nothing look enlightened. He makes Angelo in Measure for Measure look like a feminist and a good catch.
I have to disagree with you here. Nothing, but nothing, could make Angelo look like a good catch except maybe the oily Duke. Isabella/Mariana femmeslash is the only possible outcome
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 10:29 pm (UTC)Even though I actually really like the late plays. And can't bring myself to be too bothered by Joan Pucelle.
And of course #13. THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS.
(My love for Richard II is great and squishy. However, I am not sure that your opinion is precisely unpopular. Especially among people who know me.)
Also, I am pretty sure that if more people did write fic about the histories, there would still be practically no Hal/Falstaff. ;)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:11 pm (UTC)That's because Hal and Poins are obviously fucking like bunnies. *grins*
no subject
Date: 2008-07-25 11:24 pm (UTC)There's also a lot of Hal/Hotspur sexual tension. They're the Harry/Draco of the 15th century.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-26 02:50 am (UTC)I agree about Hamlet/Horatio, but can't quite agree with the Elsinore incest because I can't help thinking there is something vaguely sexual about the sheer level of control Polonius (not necessarily Laertes) has over Ophelia. I mean, he does pimp her out, basically, right?
For me, Beatrice/Benedick is tied with Lady Macbeth/Macbeth. One is comic and righteous, the other tragic and fallen, but both are wonderful.
And WORD about stupid smug horrible Bertram and how Helena deserves so much better. I cannot stand that play precisely because Bertram makes me want to heave it across the room. It even originally sullied P.G. Wodehouse's Bertie Wooster for me, because his name is Bertram too (I got over it).