15 Unpopular Opinions

[selenak]

So, it's unpopular opinion meme time again, is it? FINE. To hell with fannish neutrality and even temper. I shall hold nothing back! Be afraid. Be very afraid.



1) Shakespeare didn't retire to Stratford soon enough. And don't give me that crap about the sublimemness of The Tempest. He embarassed himself with Henry VIII afterwards, and while we're at it, The Tempest could have used an editor or two. Pointing out to him he should make up his mind about whether Antonio has a son or not, among other things.

2) Shaw's last act for Cymbeline is ever so much better than the real thing. I know GBS often gets accused of putting plot over character and writing only clever puppets voicing his opinions, but leaving aside he created some of my favourite characters in theatrical literature, he and Shakes provide an ideal counterbalance to each other.

3) Horatio is overrated as a character, and Hamlet/Horatio as a 'ship. I mean, I get you like the well-dressed quiet guy who in later acts suddenly spouts the occasional snarky remark, especially with the canon relationship with Hamlet, but do we ever find out what makes him tick? The second gravedigger has more character, and he's only around for one scene.

4) Sorry, can't see the Crazy Elsinore Incest. Sure, Laertes is overprotective and hung up on his sister, but not in a sexual way. Such brothers do exist. As for the other 'cesty pairing, Hamlet (Junior)/Gertrude - I'll grant you some subconscious murkiness, but I think the real reason for all his "Mum, you're disgusting for having sex" rants is simply his natural prig-ness, rather than Oedipal urges.

5) I like Romeo and Juliet and don't think Mercutio is the only good character in that play, so there. Also, Romeo/Juliet and Romeo/Mercutio are absolutely compatible, so I don't get what that shipper war is about anyway, plus if you can't stand Romeo, why the hell are you shipping him with Mercutio in the first place?

6) On the other hand, I'll never forgive Shakes what he did to Helena by making her end up with bloody Bertram. I mean, Bertram makes Claudio from Much Ado about Nothing look enlightened. He makes Angelo in Measure for Measure look like a feminist and a good catch. He's so absolutely revolting in his callow smugness, and Helena, clever, witty, awesome Helena is first made to pine after him, then she has to put up with his rejections, and then ending up with him is supposed to be her happy ending. Bah.

7) Killing off Cordelia was the right thing to do in Lear, and no, I don't think it was just to give Lear more emo and kick the audience in the gut one more time. On the other hand, killing off the Fool off-stage? That's just over the top gratitious cruelty, Will.

8) I like Benedick/Beatrice as much as the next fangirl, but my favourite m/f couple is Macbeth/Lady Macbeth. This was Shakes finally giving us something other than boy meets girl; a messed up relationship, absolutely, but an adult one. They're mythic.

9) No matter how many denial fics are out there where Hal after breaking up with Falstaff changes his mind and grovels and apologizes and saves him from dying in Henry V, I still like canon better. Because given how these two were characterised before, I just can't buy into a happy life together. Also, I hate all the Katherine bashing and/or writing her out so she won't be in the way in the denial fics.

10) Not that Shakes is above doing such stuff himself. I mean, what's up with killing off Portia, a woman previously characterized as being strong, and having an equal partners type of relationship with her husband, in such a "oh suddenly she's a sobbing mess who can't do without him" manner just so Brutus and Cassius can do some more manly bonding over her death in Julius Caesar? And don't give that "it's history" stuff, since when did our Will care about history? (See also: his other plays.)

11) Someone should write Mark Antony/Octavius Caesar. Admittedly this is an opinion entirely caused by the way the RSC production of Antony and Cleopatra with Patrick Stewart two years ago had him flirt with Octavius just to mess with the guy's mind, but suddenly this totally worked for me, and I'm frustrated there is no fanfic.

12) There is no excuse for what Shakes did to Jeanne d'Arc in Henry VI, Part II, including English patriotism. I mean, if Aischylos was able to give the Persians some dignity... Bastard.

13) Richard II deserved to die for all those lengthy boring speeches alone. Otoh, Bolingbroke entirely deserved Hal.

14) I wish Shakes had found some other way to work out his issues about callow good-looking young noblemen than by inserting the type again and again in his work. I mean, Bassanio is less objectionable than Bertram, but just because Gratiano is around to be more hate-able. We get it, Will, you had issues and a fetish, but surely, that was what the sonnets were there for?

15) Which brings me to the spin-offs. I mean, I'd root for The Author/Mr. W.H., canon slash and all, but why on earth should I care about some male bimbo about whom we never hear more than that he's blond, noble and at some point shags the author's female lover? Dull, I tell you. The most interesting character in the sonnets isn't either The Youth or The Author, but The Dark Lady, who has non-idealized relationships with either and seems to have come out of same neither dead nor in despair, but on top. Definitely my favourite. You can keep the guys.

No bards or certain repeating patterns in many a fandom were harmed in the production of this meme.

Comments

[leia-naberrie.livejournal.com]

LOL! This was hilarious!

7) Killing off Cordelia was the right thing to do in Lear, and no, I don't think it was just to give Lear more emo and kick the audience in the gut one more time. On the other hand, killing off the Fool off-stage? That's just over the top gratitious cruelty, Will.

Ha! I thought I was the only one who had a problem with Cordelia dying but apparently it's a popular opinion!

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I was actually really surprised when I delved into older criticism (older = back before the advent of -- I don't know, theory? -- when Shakespeare criticism when most writing about Shakespare basically was fandom-type arguments about characterss) how many critics argued the Cordelia point fiercely. I'd just always taken it for granted -- it's a tragedy, Cordelia dies -- but at one point, at least, it seems to have been widely regarded as a flaw. Possibly before existentialism discovered Lear.

[aralias.livejournal.com]

Richard II deserved to die for all those lengthy boring speeches alone. <-- so true. even as spacey it was true.

also, i can't believe that people really like horatio. as in - really? what is there to like?

but the tempest is great though :( one of my favourites.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Horatio: flippant answer: like, 90% of Hamlet fanfic is Horatio/Hamlet! It's irritating if you want to read about other characters...

More serious answer: kindkit defends Horatio enthusiastically from my slander below.

Oh, I love The Tempest, too. But I'm still right about W.S. slipping up with Antonio. Ferdinand mentions he has a son who was also on the boat so that Prospero can make a clever aside about his daughter, but other than that nobody ever refers to Antonio having offspring. *is a fannish nitpicker*

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I will take you up on many, many challenges. In fact, I have. But Antony/Octavian? Just no. *big g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Somehow, I knew you'd say that. *g* You wouldn't even think of it, which is why I am the evil twin.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Win. :D

[selenak.livejournal.com]

*beams*

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

(5) Am I the only person in this bloody fandom who thinks Mercutio's too good for either of them and that he didn't deserve to get killed over those two shallow teenagers, who deserved one another?

(7) For the last time, he's talking about Cordelia being hanged! OK, it's a bit lazy to just have the Fool wander off after the storm scene with no real explanation, but that's what fanfic's for. I read a great one a while back where Lear dumping him for the new cool thing in the shape of Poor Tom causes the scales to fall from his eyes about believing that the aristocracy will ever give a toss about you and he becomes a militant Leveller and shoots Albany in the face. (I can't believe people actually think Albany's a likable or decent human being, it's just that the other characters are so OTT evil and his wife's a ho. If he'd been there when the eye-gouging happened he'd have been cheering it on with the other.)

(8) Beatrice/Benedick isn't adult? They're both grown-ups who know about the potential to get hurt and work past it, that's why I love them. You're secretly one of those arrested adolescents who thinks OTT "darkness" = adult, aren't you?

(9) Absolutely.

(13) Yep.

(14) No, it's not Shakespeare's sex kinks, it's bloody Burbage and his insistence that the core comedy demographic can only sympathise with other rich white dudes like themselves. Art is not produced in an economic vacuum.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

(5) There you go again with the Mercutio whitewashing. If you recall, he gets himself killed while Romeo, behaving way more maturely, is trying his damned best to keep both him and Tybalt alive and ending those stupid fights altogether. Mercutio is not dying because of R&J but because of buying into the machismo he spouts.

(7) Now you're reminding me that I'm still traumatized by how easily Lear dumped the Fool for Tom. Talk about fickle. Serves him right that Tom never really existed.

(14) Yeah, yeah, go on blaming Burbage. Next thing you'll blame him for the costumes and the way Othello and Desdemona never actually have a chance to have sex. Shakespeare was a shareholder, he was as far from a kept artist as it's possible to get!

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, man, I'd like to have some witty rejoinder for some of these, but it's early and I have to be off for work, so I'll just say, awesome!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And here I was counting on you as the Bard fangirl extraordinaire!

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

Heee, that was brilliant.

That's it, basically.

Except that, clearly, the best character in R&J was the Nurse.

I feel a sudden urge to listen to The Kingmaker again.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I concede the point about the Nurse. *g*

[andraste]

I wish I had something intelligent to say here, but in lieu of that: I love you eternally.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That is good to know. Does this mean this year's Multiverse won't be the last?

[harmonyangel.livejournal.com]

Hee! This is fantastic. :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

*bows*

[x-los.livejournal.com]

4) Sorry, can't see the Crazy Elsinore Incest. Sure, Laertes is overprotective and hung up on his sister, but not in a sexual way. Such brothers do exist.

God, totally. It's not like they're The Duchess/Ferdinand over in Malfi fandom---and btw, if I see one more OOC fic where the Duchess forgets Antonio and the Pile Of Dead Babies and decides she really wanted her twin brother after all, fulfilling the maxim that 'if he obsessively loves me enough, he should be rewarded with requitement,' AND buying in to the whole Leather Pants Ferdinand thing, I'm just leaving this fandom forever. I hear good things about Marlowe fandom: I mean, all the slash...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Don't remind me of the Leather Pants Ferdinand cliché. Ugh. Though the GloucesterWives who claim they're married to Richard III. on the astral plane here in our fandom are even worse!

Marlowe: yeah, there's the slash, but I hear there is also vicious infighting between the Edward/Gaveston, Edward/Spencer and Edward/Lightborn crowd, and that's leaving out the Edward/Mortimer hate!sex shippers...

[spikewriter]

Okay, I've just frightened the cat by laughing so hard. Bloody brilliant -- and your line about The Tempest gave me something for the Shakespeare novel idea that's been brewing.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to serve and all for Shakespeare novels!

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I ::heart:: you SO much for this post. Hee!

Also, my favourite m/f couple is Macbeth/Lady Macbeth.

YES! YES YES YES YES! (That might also be because - or the reason why - "Macbeth" is my favorite play!! OK, also "Twelfth Night." It's a tie.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

"Twelth Night" makes me flinch over Malvolio too much for a favourite, though I do love it. And ha, I wish I'd have seen Sean Bean as Macbeth, too...

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I freakin' love you.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Does that mean you'll write the TARDIS season 4 diary soon? *veg*

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Truly, a work of genius.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

*bows*

[fresne.livejournal.com]

OMG brilliant!

But, but, re:10, Oh no you didn't. Portia ate red hot coals like a real Roman. none of this flailing disembowelment with go on and on speeches. Not even Lucretia-esq go get em,stabyness. Just gotta take care of honor business, bring on the burning rocks..

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, the death method might be hardcore (and historical), but look how he treats her death! Does she get an actual scene, or a monologue? Noooo. Instead, it's all about Brutus' reaction, or lack of same, and Cassius having the chance to be manly and understanding and ashamed about quarelling with Marcus earlier. Bah.

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

But . . . but . . . but Horatio is great. He's the only person in Elsinore with a lick of common sense, he tries to talk Hamlet out of some of the stupider ideas, but he's so loyal that when Hamlet decides to go with the stupid, Horatio follows him all the way. *hugs him*

Heh. I'll bet you didn't think this would generate actual controvery, did you? ;-)

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

You don't think he's spying for Fortinbras, then?

[kathyh]

Brilliant!

Bertram makes Claudio from Much Ado about Nothing look enlightened. He makes Angelo in Measure for Measure look like a feminist and a good catch.

I have to disagree with you here. Nothing, but nothing, could make Angelo look like a good catch except maybe the oily Duke. Isabella/Mariana femmeslash is the only possible outcome

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I stand by my claim Bertram is even more loathsome than Angelo. At least Angelo is vaguely interesting. Though of course you're right about the Isabella/Mariana femmeslash.

[angevin2.livejournal.com]

It's a little scary how many of those I agree with.

Even though I actually really like the late plays. And can't bring myself to be too bothered by Joan Pucelle.

And of course #13. THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS.

(My love for Richard II is great and squishy. However, I am not sure that your opinion is precisely unpopular. Especially among people who know me.)

Also, I am pretty sure that if more people did write fic about the histories, there would still be practically no Hal/Falstaff. ;)

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

there would still be practically no Hal/Falstaff

That's because Hal and Poins are obviously fucking like bunnies. *grins*

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Hah! Fantastic!

I agree about Hamlet/Horatio, but can't quite agree with the Elsinore incest because I can't help thinking there is something vaguely sexual about the sheer level of control Polonius (not necessarily Laertes) has over Ophelia. I mean, he does pimp her out, basically, right?

For me, Beatrice/Benedick is tied with Lady Macbeth/Macbeth. One is comic and righteous, the other tragic and fallen, but both are wonderful.

And WORD about stupid smug horrible Bertram and how Helena deserves so much better. I cannot stand that play precisely because Bertram makes me want to heave it across the room. It even originally sullied P.G. Wodehouse's Bertie Wooster for me, because his name is Bertram too (I got over it).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, Polonius and his pimping ways are skeevy, I agree, though in theory he's all about preventing actual Hamlet/Ophelia - which still makes it sexual control. But then he's obsessed with Laertes' sex life as well, sending spies after him etc. Are you suggesting he's a molesting father?

B/B and M/M: agreed!

There can never be enough Bertram hate. *nods eagerly*

[elisi]

I'm on holiday, but just wanted to see what you were up to and... *hands*

I have nothing to say to your utter brilliance. (Except - where are the Mercutio/Romeo/Juliet threesome fics?)

Also dropped by since you asked for recs, and I've put a lot of the stories I enjoyed recently in my favourites section at the Teaspoon. All hereby recommended.

Oh and I wrote some meta-fic myself, dealing with alt!Doctor. It's here if you're curious. (Only around 4500 words. Which is very short for me! *g*)

Anyway. I do not have a Shakespeare icon, which is obviously a great failing. I blame my inability to think of anything witty on the fact that I travelled all day yesterday! *yawns and crawls away*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you for all the links! *anticipates tasty fanfic* It might take a while with the reviews, since I'm just returning from my aunt's golden anniversary and tomorrow I'm off to London, but I will read everything!

And I wonder where the Mercutio/Romeo/Juliet threesome fics are as well. Damn it.

[joonscribble.livejournal.com]

Wow, I wasn't even aware there was a Shakespeare fandom that had fic written in it.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

While this whole entry was primarily intended as a parody, there is actually a fandom. Check out the Yuletide fanfics, there is a sizable share of Shakespeare fanfic each year (and usually of high quality). (And while I was poking fun at fandom, the views are indeed mine, with some exaggarations.)