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selenak: (DexterandRita by call_me_daisy)
[personal profile] selenak
In which someone show gets a wake-up call.



If season 2 was Dexter's belated angry adolescence, with some of the belated rebellion against a dead father carrying over in s3, he's now - when he's becoming a father himself - at that adult stage where one realises that maaaaayyybe the parents had a point. In other news, damn, damn, damn. I mean, I guessed Ellen would be the one to die (and Anton the one to live), but this doesn't make me less upset. Also, way to underscore how deeply vicious Miguel is: strangled, stabbed and beaten, as Masuka says. Oh, Ellen Wolf, you were a good character, I loved your interaction with Maria LaGuerta, and I really hope it's your death that will bring Miguel down.

Because here's the thing: how will Dexter killing Miguel not simply be a copy of last season's ending with Lila? A genuine twist would be if Miguel survives behind bars. Which leaves us with the problem of his knowledge of Dexter's nightly activities, BUT there is a way around that. Dexter never told him how and where he truly disposes of the bodies (the story of leaving them in someone else's graves was a lie, though Miguel believes it), and does he have any hardcore evidence implicating Dexter? Can't think of any right now, but I might be overlooking something. Miguel's word theoretically would carry some weight, but not if he's just proven to be a murderer; accusations against Dexter could then be explained by Miguel wanting revenge on the police department that caught him.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid for LaGuerta, Rita and Syl, in varying degrees, and afraid one of them will die before the season is over, and it's not going to be Syl, who is a new character the audience hasn't that much connected with. I hope I'm wrong.

Dexter realising he's been played for at least since the night of Feebo's murder begs the question: has it been longer than that? I.e. did Miguel when catching Dexter at checking Oscar Prado's record realise that this, not Freebo, could be his brother's killer, and that was why he invited Dexter to the funeral etc? And we're now three for three in terms of Dexter having a massive blind spot to being manipulated by the main villain of the season. He never clued in to Rudy/Brian until Deb was taken, he didn't realise about Lila setting her own flat on fire for quite a while, and he was completely taken in by Miguel's chummy "hail fellow, well met" comraderie. One would think this would shatter the arrogance he has accumulated during the last two seasons a bit. (Though his inner Harry is nice to him and doesn't too much emphasize the "I told you so".) There is an obvious irony in him thinking Miguel needs a stern warning that "no one is untouchable" by the discovery of Ellen's body when he himself has become increasingly sloppy and risk-taking.

I wasn't worried about Anton once we saw Ellen was dead; as I said last week, the rules of tv drama dictate that if you have a cliffhanger with two characters in lethal danger, one of them dies and the other survives. This being said, he can now compare stories with Tony Tucci from season 1 about surviving brutal serial killers. Poor guy. The department not simply putting surveillance on King once they had to release him made no sense, other than it offered the opportunity for Deb to come up with the palm tree trick.

The Skinner's identity being revealed now makes me think there is still something we don't know; and in this episode we get the scene with Miguel talking to King after having made sure the surveillance cameras were off, so neither Angel nor the audience know what was being said. Now this could be simply Miguel doing the same thing he did with the Aryan supremacist killer he got out of prison so he and Dexter could kill him. Or it could be someone taking a leaf from Thomas Harris' novel Red Dragon, meaning Miguel gave King the address of his next victim, the next victim being someone he wants to get rid of. Or it could be that the two actually have known each other for quite a while...

Date: 2008-11-26 11:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] veritykindle.livejournal.com
I.e. did Miguel when catching Dexter at checking Oscar Prado's record realise that this, not Freebo, could be his brother's killer, and that was why he invited Dexter to the funeral etc?

I've seen this mentioned by several people now, and I really don't think that is the case. I know Miguel is a scary manipulative bastard, but I don't think that he would have acted the way he did around Dexter if he'd known that Dexter killed his brother. I think he got curious about Dexter at the funeral, and then got even more curious when Dexter killed Freebo and then was so expert in getting rid of the evidence, and decided to try and figure out what Dexter was about. Miguel is using Dexter to learn how to be a serial killer. If Miguel had known that Dexter had killed Oscar, I think Miguel would have just tried to kill him right away.

Plus, really, there is absolutely *no* reason for anyone to think that Dexter would have killed Oscar Prado. It was a complete accident on Dexter's part, and the only person who even knew that there was a connection between Freebo and Dexter before Oscar's death (Freebo's lookout whom the Skinner killed after he'd talked to Deb) never had a chance to tell anyone about it, and never knew enough about Dexter to do anything more than maybe identify Dexter's picture. (ie, someone would have had to be already suspicious of Dexter to get it out of him.) Considering how hard Dexter is pushing his Code on Miguel, I don't think it would occur to Miguel that Dexter could have ever killed someone so completely outside the boundaries of his code.

I think it *might* be possible that Miguel knows that Dexter is the Bay Harbor Butcher, but even that I am not sure about. As you pointed out, Miguel clearly believed Dexter's story about how he disposed of Freebo's body, and the BHB's method of disposing of bodies is fairly well known.

Miguel's word theoretically would carry some weight, but not if he's just proven to be a murderer; accusations against Dexter could then be explained by Miguel wanting revenge on the police department that caught him.

Well, I was thinking about that. I think that even if Miguel gets convicted of the murder, his word could still carry some weight with LaGuerta. And that would be the second very close friend she has who would be suddenly and for her quite unexpectedly convicted of crimes she didn't think them to be capable of, and who also was suddenly telling everyone who'd listen about there being something wrong with Dexter. Given that Miguel killed Maria's friend, she isn't likely to fight to get him released. *But* I think she might listen to him about Dexter.

At the end of last season, I thought this season would be Dexter vs Deb, given how quickly Deb was improving as a cop. But I think that could only work for the last season of the show (because I think Deb would actually *catch* Dexter), so this time, I think next season is going to be Dexter vs Maria LaGuerta. Which, on the one hand, I'd like to see because I think LaGuerta is a good enough cop to be a big threat to Dexter, but on the other hand, I don't want to see, because that would spell trouble for LaGuerta, and I really like her as a character.

Or it could be someone taking a leaf from Thomas Harris' novel Red Dragon, meaning Miguel gave King the address of his next victim, the next victim being someone he wants to get rid of.

I was thinking when I was watching that scene that Miguel had asked King to go after Dexter, since Miguel knows how dangerous Dexter is, and he is smart enough and not too proud to go for help when he needs it. Of course, if Miguel did enlist King's help, in this or anything else, and then the cops found King's hideout, it's also possible that King might take that as a betrayal, and we all know what King does to people who betray him. So, even if Miguel did make a deal with King that King would go after Dexter if Miguel got him released, it's just as possible that King would go after *Miguel* as it is that he'll go after Dexter.

I guess we'll have to see what happens. I agree with you that there was a *reason* Miguel turned off that camera beside him trying to pretend that he was helping the police.

Date: 2008-11-26 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
If Miguel had known that Dexter had killed Oscar, I think Miguel would have just tried to kill him right away.

You do have a point, and also about learning more about Dexter and his code would make Miguel disregard the possibility Dexter killed Oscar. (Unless Oscar led a secret double life as a serial killer, which I really don't think.)

I think it *might* be possible that Miguel knows that Dexter is the Bay Harbor Butcher, but even that I am not sure about. As you pointed out, Miguel clearly believed Dexter's story about how he disposed of Freebo's body, and the BHB's method of disposing of bodies is fairly well known.

True, but Miguel brought up Doakes twice to LaGuerta, and he's intelligent enough to wonder. I mean, what are the odds that not one but TWO serial killers who specifically kill only guilty criminals work in the same police department? And he clearly figured out Dexter had killed before Freebo for quite a while.

Dexter versus Deb: you're right, that's a scenario they only can do when they know it's the last season.

Which, on the one hand, I'd like to see because I think LaGuerta is a good enough cop to be a big threat to Dexter, but on the other hand, I don't want to see, because that would spell trouble for LaGuerta, and I really like her as a character.

I'm with you here and torn for those same reasons.

I was thinking when I was watching that scene that Miguel had asked King to go after Dexter, since Miguel knows how dangerous Dexter is, and he is smart enough and not too proud to go for help when he needs it.

True. He must know he now falls under Dexter's code and that Dexter would be able to kill him quite easily. It's a possibility.



Date: 2008-11-26 02:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] veritykindle.livejournal.com
I mean, what are the odds that not one but TWO serial killers who specifically kill only guilty criminals work in the same police department?

Well, but you are looking at this from the point of view of a healthy sane person who knows serial killers are rare *and* realizes that killing criminals is wrong and *makes* one a serial killer and not a hero. Even in the show itself, we've gotten used to seeing things from Dexter's point of view, and for all his faults and blind spots, Dexter is (usually) at least self-aware enough to admit that he is a serial killer and not a hero, and that the fact that he likes to kill means that there is something seriously wrong with him. I am not convinced that Miguel is self-aware enough to realize that. I'm not even sure he thinks of himself as a serial killer at all. It seems to me that he has convinced himself that he is doing the right thing by enforcing *his* idea of justice. I can see him buying into the idea that there would be more than one person working in the police department who would come to the same conclusions he and (he believes) Dexter did. In fact, he probably secretly believes that there is something wrong with the cops who *don't* come to this conclusion themselves.

Which isn't to say that he couldn't still figure out that Dexter is the BHB -- he has almost enough information to do so, and he is certainly smart enough. I'm just saying that it's not completely certain he would, because his point of view is so different from ours.

Date: 2008-11-26 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violaswamp.livejournal.com
he didn't realise about Lila setting her own flat on fire for quite a while

And even then it was because of physical evidence--multiple points of origin for the fire--and not insight into her behavior.

R.I.P., Ellen Wolf.

Miguel can die without Dexter's help: I think he'd hate jail as much as death, and maybe could get into a shoot-out with the cops (possibly LaGuerta?). That would leave him unable to tell on Dexter, but Dex wouldn't have to kill him.

Not putting surveillance on King made no sense to me, either, unless it's against the law?

I don't think Miguel has ties to the Skinner. But we know Freebo did. So maybe Oscar did?

Date: 2008-11-26 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
And even then it was because of physical evidence--multiple points of origin for the fire--and not insight into her behavior.

Yes, exactly.

Against the law: I wouldn't know, being German. All I know about American law I learned from tv.

My current worry re: Miguel and the Skinner is that he used the off-camera time to give him someone's address. There was quite an emphasis on King needing respect and seeing himself as a man of honour, so presumably if Miguel struck a bargain with him (I'm letting you go and you kill X for me), he'd stick to it.

Date: 2008-11-27 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violaswamp.livejournal.com
I actually did some digging about this because I was curious: it's not against the law per se, but it's extremely manpower intensive to track even a single suspect before an arrest is made. So local police departments don't do it. The FBI sometimes does, though.

Date: 2008-11-27 07:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violaswamp.livejournal.com
I should say, local police don't do it regularly. And electronic surveillance can be a violation of people's Fourth Amendment rights, depending.

Date: 2008-11-27 08:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Thanks for looking it up! That's fascinating. So it wasn't as unrealistic as we thought.

Date: 2008-11-27 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abigail-n.livejournal.com
Still, in this case King isn't simply a homicide suspect. The cops believe he's holding a man whom he intends to torture to death. That seems like the kind of extreme circumstance that would warrant the extra manpower.

Date: 2008-11-27 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] violaswamp.livejournal.com
True. Though I don't know much about the logistics of shadowing a moving target without electronic equipment (the use of which would raise 4th Amendment issues). Still, they should have thrown us a line about why they weren't doing it.

Date: 2008-11-26 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abigail-n.livejournal.com
I thought this was the weakest episode of the season, mainly because the investigation as described made no sense. As you say, King should have been surveilled once he was released, and knowing this it beggars belief that he would go directly to Anton. What I did find interesting was the parallel the episode drew between Miguel's willingness to bend and even break the rules of due process and morality and Deb's increasing willingness to do the same. Obviously, they have different goals - Miguel wants to express his violent urges, Deb wants to save a life - and my gut instinct is that Deb's is nobler and therefore justifies her actions, but I'm not sure that's what the episode is getting at. For one thing, she's so gung ho to save Anton because she loves him, which causes her to destroy what tenuous trust she'd managed to build with King.

I haven't thought in terms of a danger to Maria's life, though I suppose being close to Miguel and challenging him puts her in the line of fire. She's had a rough time of it these last couple of seasons, hasn't she? She's lost two close friends in terrible ways, seems to have no one else in her life, and one way or another by the time the season is out she's going to lose Miguel. I'm wondering whether she won't be the one to bring him down - it won't make her very happy, but at least it'll give her some power in her life.

Date: 2008-11-27 08:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Re: investigation - [livejournal.com profile] violaswamp checked and commented above that it wasn't as unrealistic as we thought - apparantly local police department don't do it, though the FBI sometimes does.

Deb and Miguel: I was thinking more along the lines of Deb and Harry, because in the final season they'll surely let Deb make that crucial discovery, and then she'll have to decide what she does with it. It would make sense if she were in a similar position to where Harry was at that point, BUT since she's herself, not her father, would not have to make the same choices.

She's had a rough time of it these last couple of seasons, hasn't she? She's lost two close friends in terrible ways, seems to have no one else in her life,

Angel, not in a best friends manner, but they do know each other longer than everyone else does, and I think literally arrived on the same boat. But they're not close, so I think your description still fits.

and one way or another by the time the season is out she's going to lose Miguel. I'm wondering whether she won't be the one to bring him down - it won't make her very happy, but at least it'll give her some power in her life.

It would be right from a storytelling point of view, especially since last season she tried to hard to first save Doakes from himself and then prove him innocent, and failed, plus it would fit with the show making a point of first establishing her past connection to Miguel and then showing us her current befriending of Ellen.




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