Lost 5.1 Because you left and 5.2. The Lie

[selenak]

Oh show of islands and polar bears, thou art back!



First of all, I loved it that we started with a Dharma Initiative scene. I have a serious soft spot for Dharma craziness and am hoping for lots more this season, what with all the time travelling. It also tickled me that we saw a bit of them shooting these earnest instruction videos. And the use of the record was neatly done, considering Daniel's analogy later, plus of course the reveal of Mr. Farraday at the end of the teaser.

In the first episode, we caught up with everyone since last we saw them, which unfortunately included a downer for me when Ben mentioned he hadn't seen Locke ever since their goodbye in the s4 finale. I hope he's lying (as, you know, he's been wont to do now and then) because the thought of no more Emerson/O'Quinn scenes is too hard to bear. If he's not lying, I'm pinning my hopes on the moving-through-time gimmick. Scenes with Jack ARE NOT A REPLACEMENT, show. Not that those aren't good, mind.

We also learn that Sayid must have left Ben's employ since his last flash forward (or should we know call the island scenes flashbacks instead? Guess we should), which isn't exactly a shocker, but I'm still having no sympathy for Sayid presenting himself as misled by the Tiny Evil One, because he signed up for this and explicitly asked Ben for the job (and for targets), knowing exactly what Ben is like. And without being blackmailed like Michael was. Complain about the existential angst of an assassin career elsewhere, Sayid, as far as I'm concerned, you had it coming the moment you said "Benjamin - who's next?" This being said, of course the assault-and-escape scenes were thrilling and tense. Sayid really excels at those. And they included another inventively gruesome death, featuring the best black humour use of kitchen utensils since the Gremlins got microwaved.

I was wondering how they'd plausible get Kate to join them, but Kate being forced to go on the run on her own, with Aaron, is an inventive plot twist in preparation of that. Considering the timing, I wouldn't put it past Ben to have tipped someone off about the non-relatedness (because it sure wasn't any of the other Oceanic Six). This scene also filled me with hope that Kate will actually get a plot line this season that has nothing to do with the most annoying love triangle this side of BSG. I really liked her here, and it reminded me that Kate alone, sans Jack or Sawyer, is a good character. Also competent at escapes. Go Kate! Though not far, as in the next episode she hooks up with Sun, who is my other suspect as to who sent these lawyers. Given the flashbacks, I think Sun is lying when she says she doesn't blame Kate. She might or might not be planning something for Widmore (though I think she has it in for him now, given his treatment), but as far as wanting to kill Benjamin Linus first - that sounds sincere. (Though how does she know Ben is responsible for the freighter blowing up? It must have been Locke mentioning it, if he visited her the way he visited everyone else, othwerwise I'm stumped.)

Meanwhile, everyone left on the island finds out they've become an updated version of the Flying Dutchman. I must say, the only problem I had with this is that Daniel is a lousy liar and I wouldn't have expected a) Charlotte to believe the "I'm just going back for my backpack" story and b) Juliet or even Sawyer not to have figured out there was a reason why he wanted to go to the hatch to begin with. Tsk. Also, Daniel knows that Ben moved the island via the Orchid which he actually can't know (Jack and Hurley would have been able to, having seen Ben and Locke at the Orchid, but Daniel was busy ferrying people when the whole Orchid plot happened), but I'll wave it aside. He did some time travelling of his own even before he came on the island, after all, due to all those experiments. And hey, the reunion (from his pov) with Desmond was simultanously amusing and touching. Though I immediately went from those feelings to wanting to slap Desmond when he didn't take the trouble to explain to Penny first and then make the dramatic gestures.

Apropos gestures: Ethan continues to prove that death is no impediment to showing on on this show far more often then when your character was alive. I had a huge grin on my face when he showed up. Also, loved that what tips Locke off to what is happening with the island is watching the smuggler plane crash - this is something so connected to his personal story, and to his first fall from grace (i.e. leading Boone to his doom) as well as some attempts at redemption (trying to save Eko). Richard handing him the compass was great, too - going back to their first encounter (the compass as well as the sand were the items child!Locke picked correctly, before insisting on the knife instead of the law) and symbolic for the whole quest motif in Locke's life. "You have to die" to save the island - fascinating that he puts it like this, and not "you have to leave". And of course it means that the "suicide" in the off-island timeline might actually have been a suicide, instead of a murder as Sayid and Ben assume, though not out of despair. Or it might have been murder but one Locke expected/invited. At any rate, it figures that being ready to offer his life for the salvation of the island would be Locke's ultimate test, due to the Locke/Island OTP. I'm still betting on my theory that his death is a case of "only mostly dead" and will end in him becoming an avatar for the island and/or Jacob once his body is back there, btw.

Hurley's parents go a long way of breaking the "bad parents except for Jin's father" curse of Lost; so far, they're coming through for him. As to who Ben's current allies are, hm, but I can't help noticing they're all in the same age class, the butcher lady and our aquaintance from Desmond's season 3 time travel episode both. And she has a Dharma type computer. Which would argue they might be Dharma Initiative types who weren't on the island at the time of the purge, though in this case, why their alliance with Ben (unless he left out that bit where he allied with the Others in the grand massacre)? Also, I feel smug that my theory Ben is vulnerable towards middle-aged women who can order him around is proven true. (When I speculated about a Ben versus Angela Petrelli match, that's what I saw as her advantage.)

Speculation: the Others Locke was with when the time travelling started didn't travel with him because they, not just Richard, are all immortal - that would be Others as in original Hostiles, not Others as in later recruitments like Juliet or Ethan. This means they can't exist in two places at the same time, hence no time travel for them.

Comments

[ladystarlightsj.livejournal.com]

And that kitchen scene is exactly why my knives always go in the dishwasher point down, heh.

I loved everything, although I realize now how much of S4 I managed to miss, sigh.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

s4 rocked, so you should rent the DVDs somewhere.

I think I will follow your example about those knives now!

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

In the first episode, we caught up with everyone since last we saw them, which unfortunately included a downer for me when Ben mentioned he hadn't seen Locke ever since their goodbye in the s4 finale. I hope he's lying (as, you know, he's been wont to do now and then)

Well, he was already lying in this very scene, since he said they said goodbye and then John left - which is only technically what happened. I mean, yes, John went and joined Richard and the remaining Ninjas, but the one who actually left was Ben. (I'm also convinced that TPTB wouldn't really split up their power couple for good.)

Speculation: the Others Locke was with when the time travelling started didn't travel with him because they, not just Richard, are all immortal - that would be Others as in original Hostiles, not Others as in later recruitments like Juliet or Ethan. This means they can't exist in two places at the same time, hence no time travel for them.

Hm, but what tells you that the Richard who saved Locke is the same Richard who was with Locke when the island started travelling? The Other group itself pulled the same disappearing act that Ethan did, and if Medic!Richard is right, the same thing happened in both cases - it was actually Locke who disappeared, while from his point of view everyone else disappeared.

Btw, did you read the credits?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Yes, and I noticed Daniel Dae Kim is still in them, if that's what you mean:)

Re: Richard - yes, but that's actually my point. Locke was surrounded by Richard and the, well, Others, when he time travelled the first time, but they didn't time travel with him. Whereas the other castaways, who were also together in a group, did shift all together, i.e. it didn't happen that Juliet was in one time zone and Daniel in another and Sawyer in a third after a few shifts, they were always in the same. Conclusion: there is something about Richard (and the rest of the ninjas) that prevents them from time travelling, and I think the reason is that they're immortal and thus would be there twice in the same time zone if they shifted. (I also think this is why Charlotte is bleeding. She's already on the island, as a child, and so right now she's there twice.)

The Richard who gave Locke the compass is clearly one who already met him (as an adult, I mean, not as a child) - doesn't necessarily have to be Richard post-first shift, but definitely Richard post- plane crash. I very strongly suspect that the next version of Richard Locke is going to meet will be the Richard who shows up creepily in the hospital to check out baby John, and that this is in fact why Richard got alerted to the existence of Locke to begin with - he met him as an adult first. And that the compass is going to be the one child!Locke gets to choose, etc. I love time travel.

...and that's to say nothing of the stint Richard did as mayor of Gotham...

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

this is in fact why Richard got alerted to the existence of Locke to begin with - he met him as an adult first.

But that implies he does travel in time!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

No, no. See, from Richard's pov, the following happens:

At some point before 1955: Richard meets an adult John Locke, who got shifted there due to the current phenomenon, and who tells him who he is, hands over the compass, etc.

1955 (as far as I remember, I haven't checked the date): Richard then tracks down the hospital where John Locke is born.

For Richard, this happens in a linear fashion and doesn't involve any time travelling. For Locke, it does.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Ah. Can Locke go back to before he was born, then?

[Edit] I suppose he can, if Daniel et al encountered WW2 soldiers. Hmm. Perhaps we'll find out about all the remains on the island (the ship, the two skeletons etc). So you think they just can't overlap their own lives on the island? Interesting idea.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

So you think they just can't overlap their own lives on the island? Interesting idea.

In most time travel shows, crossing your own timeline is a baaad idea, so, yes. I mean, it would have been easy to, say, let Locke watch the original plane crash from the pilot - that would have told us (and him) he was in the past as well. But the show took the trouble of picking out an event which both Locke and we know happened many years before he came to the island, the drug smuggler plane. And then there's Charlotte's symptoms which nobody else shows, and last season established as Charlotte's background that she has been on the island before, as a child.

(BTW, I think this will be used as an element of suspense, not just for Charlotte - sooner or later, the castaways will end up in a time zone that overlaps with their own existence on the island and will start to feel dizzy as well. Hence Future!Locke insisting everyone dies if the Oceanic 6 don't come back - they're probably needed to stabilize either the island or the remaining castaways so there is no more flipping through time.)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

they're probably needed to stabilize either the island or the remaining castaways

Yes, that makes sense. Though I think there are far greater implications going by Worthington's reaction to Hurley being in jail, perhaps planet-wide.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Um, I meant Hawking's reaction. Where did I get Worthington from?

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Yes, and I noticed Daniel Dae Kim is still in them, if that's what you mean:)

*g*

Re: Richard - yes, but that's actually my point. Locke was surrounded by Richard and the, well, Others, when he time travelled the first time, but they didn't time travel with him. Whereas the other castaways, who were also together in a group, did shift all together, i.e. it didn't happen that Juliet was in one time zone and Daniel in another and Sawyer in a third after a few shifts, they were always in the same. Conclusion: there is something about Richard (and the rest of the ninjas) that prevents them from time travelling, and I think the reason is that they're immortal and thus would be there twice in the same time zone if they shifted. (I also think this is why Charlotte is bleeding. She's already on the island, as a child, and so right now she's there twice.)

You make a good point. I'm not entirely convinced - I think the reason the castaways plus Freightees travel and the Others don't, lies in them, not in the Others - but I can't prove the opposite. I think you're wrong about Charlotte's nosebleed, though - this happens to her while they are in the time period with the intact hatch, where everyone but the Freightees was on the island (if this were before the crash, Dan wouldn't have met Desmond but Kelvin), so if being double was the catch, Sawyer and Juliet would have suffered nosebleeds. I still think she's suffering from something similar to Minkowski and Des in The Constant, though - it's not her consciousness jumping, but the time travel is obviously affecting her negatively.

I mostly concur with the Richard-Locke-elements, although I don't think he necessarily has to be one who is post crash. If he met this adult Locke in his own past (and in Locke's future, somewhere during one of the next shifts), he would be familiar with the basic details.

...and that's to say nothing of the stint Richard did as mayor of Gotham...

At least now we know how he finds the time!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think the reason the castaways plus Freightees travel and the Others don't, lies in them, not in the Others - but I can't prove the opposite.

But in that case, what about Juliet? She's in sync with the castaways and Freightees, and she's been far longer on the island than either, so why does the force that causes the time shifts recognize her as one of them? (In my theory, she shifts because she's not an original hostile.)

At least now we know how he finds the time!

Quite. BTW, am amused to bits that the same fans who find Ben creepy to the nth degree are all "I love you, Richard!" and "Richard should be a regular". Not that Ben isn't creepy, of course he is, but given all we've seen Richard do (show up around small boys to figure out whether they're suitable, manipulate, and general Other stuff), I think it's impossible not to deduce the different reaction to similar actions is entirely due to his looks.

...I'm now amusing myself with the thought of a kidnapped Bruce Wayne who got drugged by Mayor!Richard and transported to the island. They'd all find his "my parents are dead!" issues as SO avarage and not that traumatic compared to their own stuff, and no matter whether he was with the Castaways or the Others, he'd be faster than Sawyer in arguing with everyone about what to do.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

But in that case, what about Juliet? She's in sync with the castaways and Freightees, and she's been far longer on the island than either, so why does the force that causes the time shifts recognize her as one of them? (In my theory, she shifts because she's not an original hostile.)

Then again, Ethan apparently isn't an original recipe hostile, either, and he stays put. I don't have an actual theory on this, but if the current chaos is happening because the O6 left (and not because Ben turned the wheel), it possibly depends on the ties they have to the people who were left behind. Also, Juliet was very thoroughly cast out by her Others, that might play a role as well.

Quite. BTW, am amused to bits that the same fans who find Ben creepy to the nth degree are all "I love you, Richard!" and "Richard should be a regular". Not that Ben isn't creepy, of course he is, but given all we've seen Richard do (show up around small boys to figure out whether they're suitable, manipulate, and general Other stuff), I think it's impossible not to deduce the different reaction to similar actions is entirely due to his looks.

You've never met Ben/Juliet shippers then, or people who carry the signature "Mrs. Benjamin Linus" on public messageboards? (I wish I were kidding, believe me.) By the same token, I've rarely met Richard fans who actually think he is hot (except for the Richard/Alex shippers, probably), most of them seem to be more interested if he has four toes.
I think he might get underestimated both for his looks and his friendliness, though. Most of the other creepy, mysterious possible evil overlord types on the show are at least cranky, and most of them are jerks. Richard is so nice, you hardly notice that he manipulates people to kill their father, or has annoying ex-husbands taken out by buses.

...I'm now amusing myself with the thought of a kidnapped Bruce Wayne who got drugged by Mayor!Richard and transported to the island. They'd all find his "my parents are dead!" issues as SO avarage and not that traumatic compared to their own stuff, and no matter whether he was with the Castaways or the Others, he'd be faster than Sawyer in arguing with everyone about what to do.

On the plus side, he would keep all of them busy for centuries. But he would probably think of Jack as some sort of Harvey Dent clone, that's not a good thing.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know there is a Ben/Juliet shipping community (it shows up in the lj search functions) and there are people around who find Ben attractive, but they definitely pale in a small minority when compared to Richard fanciers (my thoroughly scientific basis for this is elliotsmelliot's friends list, which has many a "Lost" link, hence my browsing through it).

Bruce Wayne on the island:

On the plus side, he would keep all of them busy for centuries. But he would probably think of Jack as some sort of Harvey Dent clone, that's not a good thing.

You mean Sawyer would get jealous? *g* *has vision of Bruce earnestly telling Jack that he must not go crazy but remain good* But you know, NolanVerse Bruce doesn't know yet it's his destiny to train adolescents and children into crime fighters, otherwise I'd have said that if he arrived in s1, Michael would have had someone other than Locke to resent re: Walt, or, conversely, Boone would have found another guru.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(my thoroughly scientific basis for this is elliotsmelliot's friends list, which has many a "Lost" link, hence my browsing through it).

Hee. My thoroughly scientific basis are the DarkUfo blog (not really worth checking out) and several other ljs who are probably not connected to elliot. And spectralbovine, who told me Richard is awesome, because he used to play this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batmanuel). There is even photographic evidence (http://www.thetick.ws/images/Batmanuel%202.jpg).

or, conversely, Boone would have found another guru.

That would have been even greater if Ian Somerhalder's character on Smallville had actually been Batman (he wasn't, but since he used the name Adam Knight, a lot of people thought he was Bruce Wayne in disguise).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

LOL on both counts. Of course, Bruce got at least one of the Robins killed, so I'm not sure whether Boone's fate wouldn't have remained the same!

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I just watched this. Excellent pair of eps!

our acquaintance from Desmond's season 3 time travel episode

Ms Worthington? I was assuming she was Daniel's mother that he wants Desmond to give a message to. But maybe not.

I am puzzled about who the English soldiers were who wanted to cut Juliet's hand off. It can't be as far back as WW2, surely? And if they were some of the mercenaries, they wouldn't be surprised at their presence there.

I do hope they're not planning to kill Charlotte. I like her. I'd swap her for the annoyingly ever-smiling Juliet any day.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Daniel's mother - he said, at least - is in Oxford; the woman Ben meets is in Los Angeles. They might still be one and the same, of course, and Daniel is simply wrong about where his mother is.

Soldiers: well, considering there is the wreck of an old slave trader ship on the island, there definitely were visitors long before WWII, so I don't see why not. But I guess we'll find out.

Charlotte: I think she'll be in grave danger but Daniel will manage to save her - she's not been around long enough for the show to kill her off, cynically speaking, and we still need to find out so much about her.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

My brain is spinning too much for deep thoughts right now, but: Sun is lying. Lying, lying, lying. And using Kate to achieve her own ends. Ooooh.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

What I'm thinking, too. Sun has learned how to be patient and disguise her feelings the hard way, and she's always been a good liar. My current guess is that she wants to use Widmore and Ben to destroy each other, and plans to use Kate as either a weapon or bait.

[misachan.livejournal.com]

And I think she does blame Kate. Sun's going to be the big monkey wrench in everyone's grand plans this season, and no one will see it coming.

[misachan.livejournal.com]

We also learn that Sayid must have left Ben's employ since his last flash forward (or should we know call the island scenes flashbacks instead? Guess we should), which isn't exactly a shocker, but I'm still having no sympathy for Sayid presenting himself as misled by the Tiny Evil One, because he signed up for this and explicitly asked Ben for the job (and for targets), knowing exactly what Ben is like.

Ooh, this just occurred to me: maybe Ben ordered Sayid to kill Penny? Alex was killed by one of Whitmore's hired goon, after all, so Ben sends his goon after her. Assassinating people who are a danger to his friends is one thing, but being sent to kill an innocent purely so Ben could get revenge could well have been the breaking point. Especially considering how friendly he and Desmond became on the freighter.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, it would make perfect sense if that was Sayid's reason to call it quits with Ben, but it doesn't change that it's his own fault he signed up for the assassin gig to begin with. Ben being capable of killing innocents isn't exactly a shocker if you know the guy, and Sayid did.

Now here's a question. Say it happened thusly:

Ben: ..and now we're finally ready to deal the fatal blow to Widmore. Kill Penny.

Sayid: What? No way!

Why on earth didn't Sayid kill Ben at this point? I mean: you're Sayid, at this point assassin extraordinaire. And a man whom you know to be one of the most dangerous you've ever met, no matter how harmless he looks, has just announced his intention to kill an innocent woman. You know that this man usually gets what he wants, one way or another. Would you

a) Walk away in a huff, announcing your intention to never return or
b) kill the man then and there, thus ensuring the innocent woman's life will not be in danger anymore?