Apropos Romance

[selenak]

Recent events over at BSG having put me in an exceedingly cranky mode towards on screen romance, I thought that rather then get into a rant about how much I dislike certain 'ships and what they did/do, in several fandoms, to beloved (usually, but not always) female characters, I should have a reality check and remind myself there were and are pairings I enjoy, and sometimes these very pairings are the ones that make other viewers react exactly the same way I do to their OTPs.

So, if you, potential reader, have ever thought I'm being unfair to, say, Cordelia/Angel, Roslin/Adama, Lee/Kara, fourth season John/Aeryn - here is your ammunition. I confess. For looking at my fannish repertoire, I find that I have a soft spot for several girls of the week, and girls of the week tend to be among the most scorned of clichés. You know the complaint: they show up, we're supposed to believe our regular character falls for them with lightning speed, there is drama, at the end they're gone either because of a contrived reason or because they die, and the next week we get a reset button as if they never existed. And god knows, I've rolled my eyes at girls of the week in several fandoms, too, especially when Kirk or Kirkian types were doing the romancing. However, in some cases, I have become gushy, I wrote fanfic and/or devoured fanfic, and I remain incredibly defensive when I see them or their relationship with the regular or their episode critisized elsewhere. Here are some of the ladies and romances in question:


Babylon 5:

Here I have not one but two women and their relationships to regulars to adore and 'ship. And to the same regular, too. Whom I passionately ship with another male regular as well, but then, so does canon. Yes, naturally I'm talking about Londo. Londo and...

1) Adira Tyree: Adira shows up in the third episode of the first season (not counting the pilot, this makes her the first girl of the week on the show, and Londo the first regular to get laid, which I always find gratifying, considering he's a middle-aged plump alien who is nobody's idea of a handsome hero), leaves at the end of the episode, gets killed off screen in the fourth season and makes a short reappearance in the fifth, thanks to Neil Gaiman writing an episode called Day of the Dead. In her episode Born to the Purple, you'll recognize all the hallmarks of a girl of the week story - she's beautiful, she's in trouble, she's lying at the start, she gets our regular into trouble, there is a villain to blame for all of this, the grand climax involves her being rescued from said villain. So why is Born to the Purple one of my favourite B5 episodes, eliciting "awwwwws" every time I watch it, why have I written two Adira stories? Well, for starters, because there is no reset button. Adira gets referenced repeatedly in subsequent seasons, not just in the episode she gets killed off in or the one she makes her brief post-mortem reappearance in. The fact Londo fell in love with her has a lasting impact on him and one particular plot line. Secondly, the reason why Adira leaves at the end of Born to the Purple doesn't feel contrived but right for the characters. She was a slave, and Londo by the end of the episode has secured her freedom. But if she remained with him, it would feel as if she had simply changed owners, or as if her freedom was dependent on her being with him. So Adira's decision to leave plays as the right thing for her to do (as accepting it plays as the right thing for Londo). Thirdly, Born to the Purple cleverly skips over the whole "boy meets girl" part of the cliché, starts after Londo is already in love with Adira, and thus is able to focus on them as an existing relationship instead of one that has to be established first. And fourthly, it's a great character episode for Londo and his particular mixture of romanticism and cynicism, and a great cultural background establishing episode for the Centauri. (Blackmails, court intrigues, slavery, the importance of status, even such trivia as the drink Vir prepares for Londo's hangovers - jaala - all make their debut here.) Scenes like Adira teasing Londo by calling him by his title and his reaction to this both work as part of a love story and as a character revealing scene because it showcases a lot about Londo's past, present, attitude towards his world and society and the way he sees himself.

2) Timov (of Algul): in many ways the complete opposite of the Londo/Adira relationship. Timov, who shows up in only one episode - Soul Mates in season 2 - is one of Londo's three wives (the Centauri are a polygamous society), the one he argues with all the time and the only one he doesn't divorce. She and Londo appear to be roughly of the same age, the show makes a point of showcasing her, err, unique voice, she never stops pointing out Londo's flaws (of which he has plenty), and slaps him early on in the show. She also saves his life behind his back because, as she tells the station's doctor, she prefers to win her battles in different ways. Which is why Londo doesn't divorce her, though he's not told about the life saving; "with you, I always know where I stand" he says to her when they part at the end of the episode. The most attractive thing about Londo/Timov is of course the glorious verbal sparring, coupled with Timov's ruthless honesty (which by now we know is very atypical for their society) and the fact Londo respects her for it. And again, the fact that she leaves makes sense and doesn't feel contrived; they might feel more for each other than either is ever willing to admit, but they're also not kidding about the inability to actually live with each other. Depending on my mood, I can't decide whether Londo and Timov are a somewhat wiser George and Martha from "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf", or Benedick and Beatrice from Much Ado About Nothing, thirty years hence. Be that as it may, Soul Mates is a favourite episode of mine, and I've written lengthy fanfiction.



Doctor Who:

Priceless moment from the audio commentary of The Aztecs: William Russell, who plays Ian Chesterton, member of the original Team TARDIS and together with Barbara Wright the first companion, watches the scenes between the Doctor and the Atztec Cameca and observes that putting the Doctor in a romance is awfully sweet, and "it's a pity the show never did that again, they should have done it more often".

...

Anyway. The Aztecs are my favourite First Doctor serial for many reasons, most of which have to do with how much Barbara rocks in that story, but one reason is the One/Cameca subplot. Bear in mind here this was shot long before the phase where the word "asexual" in connection with the Doctor was bandied about. Cameca, the actress of whom only died last year, comes across as somewhere between 40 and 50 in this story, and the Doctor is interested from the moment he spots her (and asks the dignified One version of "who's the hottie?"). Partly because our heroes need allies, but mainly because Cameca is both attractive and clever, and Ian later teases him not a little about his crush. The fact the Doctor gets engaged to her is an accident but the flirting is anything but, and the scene where they part is very touching, and has an aftermath which Stephen Moffat later echoes in The Girl in the Fireplace. (The Doctor, having originally intended to leave the keepsake she gave him to remember her by, returns for it and takes it with him, and then at the TARDIS console regards it sadly the way Ten will with Reinette's letter.) I have a soft spot for any story that defies ageism by showcasing people over 40 in romantic situations anyway, but the Cameca subplot was gracefully done, and one never doubts the Doctor does indeed care for her. In conclusion: One/Cameca for the win!

Speaking of Reinette, she, of course, is my other DW girl of the week. The Girl of the Fireplace is my favourite Moffat episode so far, the superior brilliance of Blink notwithstanding (the Library episodes I can take or leave, and I was very impressed by "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" but haven't rewatched in years, which tells you something, I suppose); I like the meta-ness of it - the Doctor experiencing Reinettes life the way viewers (and readers) experience his, by being presented with selected emotionally charged episodes -, the beautiful monsters, so right for the period (automatons were an obsession of the age), and the way the audience, but not the characters, at last find out the why and wherefore by that final shot - the spaceship there were on was called Madame de Pompadour -, I like the surreality of a horse wandering through a spaceship (and the Doctor naming it Arthur): but all of this would not be enough if I didn't believe in the central relationship and the woman in it, and I do. Yes, this wasn't an in-depth and completely accurate portrait of Jeanne Poisson, Marquise de Pompadour. But it got a lot of the spirit right. One of the minor details that sold me: Reinette talking in a matter of fact way with her friend about her ambition to replace the most recent maitresse en titre. In most popular media, women who want to become a king's mistress are either zomg evil and the villainess or, if they are the heroine, they are blackmailed into it, or they are motivated by pure romantic love and not interested in the high position their relationship will offer at all. Not here. And while she builds up the Doctor from childhood hero to adult crush in her emotions, this does not influence the way she lives her life or deterr her from her ambitions. I think this is what I found most appealing - Reinette falls in love with the Doctor, but she remains queen of her realm, as it were. Character traits like her cleverness are not only told but shown - the way she comes up with the book and pages metaphor for how the Doctor visited her life, for example, the way she figures out that if he can look into her mind, she can look back. Her bravery vis a vis the automatons, both as a child and as an adult. I've seen criticism that she is presented as pining away for the Doctor for the rest of her life, but that wasn't the impression the episode gave me. Yes, she waited for him to return, as her letter said, but she did that since meeting him for the second time, and that had never stopped her from enjoying her life and doing what she wanted in all the other periods of her life that we saw, so why should that have been different in the last decade of her life? (The other thing that regularly drives me crazy about Girl in the Fireplace attacks is when it's claimed the Doctor is presented as "deserting Rose and Mickey in order to chase Reinette". He jumps through that mirror (via horse) in order to save her life which is in immediate danger of being ahistorically ended in the next minute. Yes, at this point he's also attracted and attached to her, but being the Doctor, I have no doubt he'd have done it for Louis XV. as well had it been Louis' head the automatons were after.) I've never written Reinette, but I love GiFP stories and AUs in which the Doctor is indeed forced to take the long path. In conclusion: hooray for Ten/Reinette!

...and then there is Ace. Who had both girls and boys of the week. My favourite girl for Ace was Karra in Survival (and if someone knows of a fanfic that makes a connection between the cheetas and the cat people of New Earth, and includes Ace and/or Karra in some way, I'd be eternally grateful), but I would be lying were I to claim this is my favourite thing about Survival. The one of her doomed boyfriends I have a seriously soft spot for is the Soviet captain in Curse of Fenric, Sorin, but due to the plot - i.e. he first gets possessed by EVIL FROM THE DAWN OF TIME and then dies - there is little to no room for fanfic. Pity.



Deep Space Nine

The girls and boys of the week the show came up with for our Starfleet crew tended to be bland, or, in one case, presenting unintended problematic subtext. On the other hand, my favourite among the regular characters who also happens to be the most unattractive in terms of looks, the Ferengi Quark, scored not one, not two, but three memorable girls of the week, and I loved each of the relationships and episodes. Despite the fact they shamelessly plundered some classic romances, or maybe because of it, since taking a short capitalist and sexist alien as hero instead of the dashing and heroic Starfleet guys made for a great inventive twist right from the get go.

1) Pel: aka, DS9 does Yentl. The Ferengi being the kind of society which at the start of the show still forbade their women to conduct business and indeed to wear clothes, the Yentl replay worked quite well with them. Pel disguised herself as a man, became one of Quark's waiters, befriended him, fell in love with him, was found out, along the way there were mutual savings involved, and at the end they parted for the same reason Yentl does with Avigdor - the man of the pairing is still too much a traditionalist. Viewers tend to hate or in a minority case love the Ferengi episodes. I, obviously, love them, and this one more than most, as in addition to presenting a believable bittersweet romance it introduced the Quark/Dax friendship that became one of my favourite elements in the show. Pel - the first female Ferengi we met on the Star Trek 'verse - was very likeable, and not because she was more "human" - she was presented as interested in profit as the male members of the species. While the story was presented as a comedy, it was a romantic comedy, not one that ridiculed the characters; the parting between her and Quark was poignant while absolutely the right thing to happen.

b) Grilka: aka, DS9 does Green Card (and later Cyrano de Bergerac): House of Quark, the first of the two Grilka episodes, is one of my favourite Trek eps, not least because of the inspired Klingon/Ferengi culture clash which doesn't present either people as superior. I love the way Quark faces down Klingon machismo in the climax episode and does so in a Ferengi way (by pointing out that a duel with him was always going to be just an execution, since there is no way he can fight the villain of the hour as an equal, so they might as well skip the formalities and the honour posturing and just kill him); I also love his relationship with Grilka, who goes through a fake marriage due to plot reasons and starts out despising him while he thinks she and her Klingon ways are crazy. Along the way, they teach each other a thing or two, and become very fond of each other indeed. In conclusion: Quark/Grilka: theirloveissomulticultural.

c) Natima: aka, DS9 does Casablanca: yes, Quark got to be Bogey as well. (The working title for the episode in question was "Everybody comes to Quark's"). His Ingrid Bergman was Natima Lang, a Cardassian dissident, and in a feminist twist on the original, she was the one to give him the "I have to get on this air plane space shuttle" speech at the end instead of him giving it to her. (As opposed to Ilsa Lund, she actually shot as well in the scene where she shows up with a weapon to get the pass ports cloaking device from him, and then confessed her love.) As opposed to the other examples, this romance had Quark as already in love when the story started, and you never doubt his sincerity. One of these days I must get back to writing DS9 because I don't think anyone has ever written Quark/Natima backstory, and as that happened during the first occupation of Bajor, with the Cardassian attitude to mixed couples being what it was, it has incredible potential. Quark/Natima: they'll always have Terok Nor!

Comments

[abigail-n.livejournal.com]

In B5, I liked Dodger, the infantry soldier Garibaldi hooks up with, because it's clear that both of them, though fond of one another, know that this is a short term thing, and because it's one of the first instances of Garibaldi showing his soft underbelly, most particularly when Dodger wants to have sex and he wants to slow things down.

I like "House of Quark" more than I ought to, and that's mostly because of Grilka (the actress was also the first Na'toth), though I was less pleased when she showed up again in "Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong Places." Another DS9 one-off I like is the astral-plane alterego of a repressed wife who falls in love with Sisko in an episode I can't be bothered to look up. It's an utterly forgettable story and she wasn't much of a character, but Avery Brooks is so damned adorable when he's playing Sisko as infatuated, which is later put to great use in his long term relationship with Kasidy Yates - in general, I think DS9 did a much better job with slowly simmering relationships than girls of the week.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, Dodger! Yes, I liked her, too. BTW have you seen andrastewhite's superb vid "Ophelia"? It's about the women who die and come back on B5, sometimes literally, sometimes only metaphorically; Dodger and Adira are both among them.

Agreed that DS9 did a great job with the long term relationships, but.

[beatrice_otter]

Link to the vid? Sound's great.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Here it is (http://andrastewhite.livejournal.com/316133.html)!

[beatrice_otter]

Thanks!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You should also check out Andraste's superb Brothers in Arms (http://andrastewhite.livejournal.com/273916.html), which is about the entire show. (I'm biased as it is dedicated to me, but it's really wonderful.)

[trobadora]

I so completely agree with everything you say about Girl in the Fireplace. That was one fabulous episode, and Doctor Who in a nutshell. How people manage to hate it is beyond me.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I tend to blame shipper craziness, but then, I'm hardly unbiased.

[trobadora]

Sure seems that way! But then I've never understood those who believe the Doctor must love one person above all else. He's just not that kind of person.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm a firm believer in the "loves them all" interpretation myself when it comes to the Doctor. Actually, with all immortal or near-immortal characters in any fandom once they've made it beyond their first century, I'd postulate that such a thing as a "one true love" is not possible if you want to portray them as sane or at least not completely sociopathic. It only works for supervillains like Kronos in Highlander or the Master; but characters who are able to relate to the rest of the 'verse, are interested in the people around them, will inevitably love more than just one of them in the course of several lifetimes.

[elisi]

Sometimes the shippiness it not a deliberate choice (as here). Personally I love TGiF, for all the reasons you state, and *adored* Reinette. I remember my main reaction being 'Yay! The Doctor danced!' - guess it was at that point I realised that (despite being very fond of Rose), I'd never be a Doctor/Rose shipper... ;)

ETA: Actually, Doctor/Rose was never my sort of ship. Much too straightforward.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

*g* I remember reading that post on my flist. See, that's the charming self aware type of shipperness that makes me smile in fondness instead of awaking my inner anti-shipper.

Doctor/Rose: I never 'shipped them, neither Nine nor Ten. It's not just Rose, though - any companion during the time they're travelling with the Doctor. It's different once they've left the TARDIS and have gotten on with their own lives, and he shows up now and then. For example, I read the occasional Sarah Jane/Ten with pleasure when I wouldn't touch Sarah Jane/Four. I suppose it's my power balance squick - the "designated driver" factor, to quote Rose from End of the World. Maybe I'd make an exception for Romana if I had watched more Romana serials, but I've only seen two. So the rule still holds.

The other reason why I was never even tempted to ship Doctor/Rose are, admittedly, the shippers - most I've "met" have the one true love insistence going. Not all, I hasten to add, but most of them. And that quickly made me go from eye-rolling to irritation.

[elisi]

See, that's the charming self aware type of shipperness that makes me smile in fondness instead of awaking my inner anti-shipper.
Exactly! And I get what you say about shippers putting you off something, esp the One Twu Luw ones, since that particular 'set-up' is one that I'm rather allergic to. Which is why I tend to stay away from fandom in general...

It's not just Rose, though - any companion during the time they're travelling with the Doctor.
That's interesting, and something I'll have to ponder, but I like it. Could River maybe be the exception to the rule? She, after all, definitely has her own life going on, running parallel to her travels with the Doctor

I think I was going to say other things, possibly clever ones, but it's late and my brain refuses to co-operate. So instead I'll just rec Five times the Doctor tried to get rid of Rose Tyler (and one time he succeeded) because it is so delightfully silly!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Could River maybe be the exception to the rule? She, after all, definitely has her own life going on, running parallel to her travels with the Doctor

Yes, and I didn't get the impression River travelled with him Companion-style as much as he visited her - or they met during her own adventures. Which removes me power balance problem. Mind you, I still want to see more of River and the Doctor interacting before I decide whether or not I 'ship them, but I definitely wouldn't object for the other reason.

Your rec: is priceless.*veg*

[elisi]

Yes, and I didn't get the impression River travelled with him Companion-style as much as he visited her - or they met during her own adventures. Which removes me power balance problem.
Yes - the problem is that the Companions (usually) make the Doctor their life, and that's not healthy. Also they're generally young and impressionable, and it leads to a lot of drama. (Loved that Martha realised this and walked away. I felt terribly sorry for the Doctor, but cheered for her!)

And I too hope we get to see more of River - River/Eleven would be fascinating. But - I must run...

Your rec: is priceless.*veg*
My pleasure. :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, in classic Who the Companions who really want to travel with the Doctor forever and focus on him to that extent are actually rare, and of the three categories for departure (1) leaves because she/he wants to, 2) leaves because the Doctor dumps them, 3) leaves because higher circumstances intervene against both the Companions and the Doctor's will), 1) is by far the largest. (Among these, the spectrum goes from very emotional goodbyes - Tegan, or Jo - to very cheerful ones - Mel.) Even in New Who, I'd say only Rose and Jack do that. Martha falls in love with him, but I didn't get the impression she ever intended to stay with ihm permanently, even if he had loved her back - she had a job she enjoyed on Earth, and sense of being eternally used as a peacemaker by her family aside, was pretty happy with her life as it was. Donna does want to travel and stay forever, but this is about the adventure and the travelling and the Doctor as part of this. Mickey comes along because he's curious about the adventure (and perhaps still a bit because of Rose at that point) and leaves because of the third wheel sense and because here is important work for him on Alt!Earth.

On the other hand, what Old Who usually doesn't provide the Companions with but New Who does is their own support network. Rose, Martha and Donna all have their families, Mickey on Alt!Earth had Jake and his Gran, and Jack has Torchwood. Whereas many a classic Companion usually either gruesomely loses their family just before meeting the Doctor, or never has one to begin with. (There are of course exceptions, but they're really rare.)

In either case, though: while they're travelling with the Doctor, he might be emotionally dependent on them to various degrees, but they're physically dependent on him. Your usual Companion can't drive the TARDIS, and if the Doctor should decide to leave them on planet X, there would be no way they could stop him or leave on their own. So - power imbalance.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

I love Timov! Wonderful character. And I agree that Adira is not just a one-episode character - you feel her presence in many episodes where she is not seen.

Reinette! Loved that story. I also like River Song- who seems to get disliked by many. (and I need to go find a copy of the Aztecs some day as I recall seeing it donkey's years ago and I remember Cameca.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Aztecs is out on dvd and eminently rewatchable - if we lived in the same country, I could lend you my copy!

River Song: she has her partisans, but yes, gets about the same amount of hostility as Reinette does. Personally, I'm very curious whether Moffat will bring her - or rather, a younger version of herself - back, or whether he'll declare she was in an alternate timeline...

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, Pel. I keep meaning to write a Pel/Jadzia femmeslash story just to make you and me happy, since I think they manage to have some chemistry in the (two?) scenes they share. Also I'm always gratified that Jadzia doesn't figure out Pel is a woman in man's clothing before she figures out the infatuation - and that it's presented as a perfectly okay thing for Jadzia to assume. It's a far more graceful note about homosexuality than most Trek episodes ever achieve.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You would make me exceedingly happy with Pel/Jadzia, and I shall remind you I did write Toby and Jed to blackmail you now that you've told me it's in the offering.

Also I'm always gratified that Jadzia doesn't figure out Pel is a woman in man's clothing before she figures out the infatuation - and that it's presented as a perfectly okay thing for Jadzia to assume. It's a far more graceful note about homosexuality than most Trek episodes ever achieve.

True, and that was a favourite detail for me, too. They did generally well with Jadzia in this regard - even in such a below-par episode like "He who is without sin..." when Worf is jealous about her and what's-her-name, she says "X is Curzon's lover, not mine", not something about gender. Plus of course Reunion where we get the anvilly speech from Kira about why two people who love each other should not be together, which might be a bit obvious but is still way better than nothing or the completely screwed (intention versus reality) up TNG episode.

Back to Pel: I can't make up my mind about Quark's reaction when she kisses him, because he assumes she's a man, too (and doesn't figure out the woman part until Rom outs her), but his "this did not just happen" reaction could be for different reasons - either because he doesn't think of himself as gay, or because it's a Ferengi cultural thing. (If we take the media tie-ins into account, it has to be the former, since Ira Behr slipped in a footnote in the Rules of Aquisition, but hey, the printed stuff is always of doubtful canonicity.)

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

You would make me exceedingly happy with Pel/Jadzia, and I shall remind you I did write Toby and Jed to blackmail you now that you've told me it's in the offering.

I think it might make me slightly embarrassed, since the draft I started has random kink for no reason other than I wanted to be smutty. What we really need is a Trek kinkmeme so I can pretend I didn't write it except under a pseudonym.

Back to Pel: I can't make up my mind about Quark's reaction when she kisses him, because he assumes she's a man, too (and doesn't figure out the woman part until Rom outs her), but his "this did not just happen" reaction could be for different reasons - either because he doesn't think of himself as gay, or because it's a Ferengi cultural thing.

Ira Behr also wrote "Always have sex with the boss," which is fairly leading. My guess is though, that he doesn't think of himself as gay since he's the Archie Bunker of DS9.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

I don't think the Ferengi have a concept of gay. The "always have sex with the boss" thing makes me think that the Ferengi have absolutely no problem with homosexual relations as long as the guy with more power is on top. Maybe Quark's freakout is because Pel is being too forward, and this makes it ambiguous as to whether "he" views Quark as a top or a bottom. (Quark might have no particular interest in men, but if a Ferengi employee who wasn't his brother offered sex, I think Quark's reaction would be "Thanks, but no thanks, I know you're after a raise and I'm not fooled," not "OMG a MAN is coming on to me!")

In my fanfic, the Ferengi have a problem with men who *only* have sex with other men -- someone who has no interest in women at all is a weird pervert (as is a masochist; one of my characters is a female physicist who acquired the power to get offworld and study physics by being a domme and then blackmailing the guys she dominated, because "if a guy doesn't have the lobes to control a woman in bed, who's gonna believe he's got the lobes for business?"), but it's expected that men will offer up sex to their boss to try to get promotions, raises or better treatment, and men will take those offers if it's a slow day and they haven't got the budget for a prostitute and they're going to be working late enough that they won't be getting home to the wife for a while. But in these situations there's a *very* clear top and bottom -- the top receives oo-mox or oral sex and gives anal, the bottom gives oo-mox or oral and receives anal -- and the idea is supposed to be that it's never reciprocal.

So what Quark might be freaking out about is not that Pel is offering sex -- he might have expected that -- but that "he" did so by kissing Quark, which from a man to a man would probably denote that the initiator of the kiss is on top. (From a woman, since a woman is *always* defined as inferior to a man, a woman can forcefully express sexual interest in a man and it doesn't define the man as a bottom, and Pel, actually being a woman, probably did not realize this distinction.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Sounds all plausible to me. Incidentally, do you think the Ferengi see sex with other species as pretty much the same? I.e. as long as the guy with more power is on top, it doesn't matter whether the person from the other species is male or female? Because they seem to have no taboos about sexual relationships with non-Ferengi as such, given not just Quark but pretty much every (male) Ferengi we see hitting on Bajorans, humans etc. Though Quark seems to be aware that such taboos exist in other species, given that when he challenges Sisko about being prejudiced, one of the things he asks is whether Sisko would let his son date a Ferengi.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

My view is that their attitude toward sex with other species is *very* different, but the distinction, if anything, is toward more "anything goes" and less social restriction.

For instance, they are willing to have sex with *alien* women who aren't subservient at all, who wear clothes, who do business, all things that appall them when it comes from a Ferengi woman. So I'd say that they probably have almost no taboos about what kind of sex is okay to have with aliens.

On the darker side of that, we've clearly seen that they are willing to take alien slaves, and *very* clearly that they're willing to enslave alien women, so my feeling about Quark's statement that the Ferengi don't take slaves is that Quark means the Ferengi have never enslaved *other Ferengi.* Ferengi males can be outrageously exploited, but must be paid *something* for their work and must be left free to go find another job; Ferengi females are permitted to own the property that is gifted to them (not real estate or entities like businesses, but if you give a Ferengi woman jewelry, it's hers and her dad or husband cannot take it from her) and are protected through contracts. If your Ferengi wife can actually manage to *meet* another man (unlikely, since she's stuck in the house, but possible), and she can persuade him to pay the fee for her breaking her contract with you, she can leave you for another guy. Her freedom is *very* restricted, but she's not a slave. However, TNG, VOY and ENT all showed us Ferengi taking prize ships through piracy, where the intent was obviously to enslave the crew, or taking prize ships and attempting to kidnap the women aboard as slaves, or enslaving local populations of aliens... so my feeling is that the Ferengi taboo on enslaving people applies *only* to other Ferengi.

Basically I think they give all other species a pass on the rules they enforce on each other, and reciprocally apply very, very few of the rules they enforce on intra-Ferengi dealings to aliens. So it's perfectly respectable to sleep with a clothed, dominating alien woman who commands the space station you live on (if she'd actually accept, which obviously she won't :-)), but it's also perfectly respectable to kidnap alien women and sell them as slaves or rape them (Lwaxana may have gone along with the Ferengi guy who kidnapped and stripped her and Deanna because she saw it as the best way to get them out of the situation, but whether or not she admits it to herself, she was at best coerced into sex if not outright raped. You can't freely consent to sex with the guy who kidnapped you.)

So I think if a Ferengi man wants to bottom to an alien man, that's okay and a harmless kink (he would be looked at funny if he *never* had sex with a Ferengi woman, but all he has to do is contract one as a wife and then keep her so she never has a chance to tell anyone else that he doesn't really have sex with her.) Bottoming to a Ferengi man who's his social inferior, however, would be shameful.

[flo-nelja.livejournal.com]

I really love Cameca.
And she must be at least 52, since she's an old woman by Aztec standards. (so she doesn't have to work anymore)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Right you are! And over 50 is even better.

[kangeiko]

I agree on your picks for B5 and DSN, they are ace. (Pst, Adira was killed in S3, not S4...)

I really liked Dodger (much more than Lise, who was dire), she was great fun. I hated - HATED - pretty much all of Talia and Ivanova's love interests, but I quite liked Lindisty because she's slightly psychopathic and the show doesn't back away from that. I guess she plays both love interest and villain?

On DSN, I liked the Cardassian woman played by Tracy Scoggins who lucks out with Miles O'Brien. Again, this is mainly because one character has significant prejudices that need to be overcome (and also because O'Brien doesn't cheat on Keiko, which makes me happy. I've loved Keiko since TNG's Rascals). I wasn't rooting for the them to get together or anything, but I really enjoyed the flirtation and what they did with it.

I also love Vash to bits. She brightened up TNG by being shallow and manipulative and a great lay that made Picard smile. Where's the wrong with that? Plus, he got to play Indiana Jones. I admit that her visit to DSN was awful, but Q lucked out there too.

And going to the classic 'girl of the week' territory, I remain Edith Keeler's devoted fan. Mainly because she wore a lot more clothing than the typical girl of the week, but also because she was the pivotal point for that particular reality. Not because she was beautiful or a princess or rich, but because she had vision and was determined. Which not a lot of typical 'girls of the week' possess.

Except for Dodger. Who was made of awesome.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

but I quite liked Lindisty because she's slightly psychopathic and the show doesn't back away from that. I guess she plays both love interest and villain?

Yes. My only problem is not with Lindisty but with the end of the episode where JMS goes for the cheap punchline at the expense of character. You know, when she kisses Vir and Vir, once she has left, says "well, which relationship doesn't have its ups and downs" and looks bedazzled. The same Vir who angsts non stop about Londo's growing darkness from Chrysalis onwards, the same Vir who is so disgusted by the sight of Cartagia washing his hands of G'Kar's blood that he goes from "maybe there should be another way" to "let's kill him". And this Vir, who has heard Lindisty tell him she enjoys killing and torturing Narn, sums this up with such a line? (To clarify: I don't think it's ooc for Vir to still care for Lindisty after discovering she's a psycho, or feel conflicted about whether or not to marry her. I do think it's ooc for him to make a joke out of it.)

Vash: oh YES. Adore her, too.

Edith Keeler: by all means. She had her own story, and wasn't just around for Kirk to smooch. Also, as opposed to most other ST time travel stories where our gallant crew finds the changed timeline to be worse than the original and has to do something heroic to change it back, here they have to do something painful - let a sympathetic and heroic character die. And I so love that exchange about "let me help you" rather than "I love you" being the most meaningful words.

(Plus? The fact Edith is played by a young Joan Collins will never cease to make my mind boggle.)

[kangeiko]

(To clarify: I don't think it's ooc for Vir to still care for Lindisty after discovering she's a psycho, or feel conflicted about whether or not to marry her. I do think it's ooc for him to make a joke out of it.)

I totally agree. I think him liking her despite that is IC, because it's Vir, and he loves Londo, for crying out loud, but I don't think that he would ever view it as anything light or anything you can joke over.

(Plus? The fact Edith is played by a young Joan Collins will never cease to make my mind boggle.)

I know! *g* I can't get over it, either.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

On DSN, I liked the Cardassian woman played by Tracy Scoggins who lucks out with Miles O'Brien.

I think you mean *struck* out? "Luck out" would imply that she got lucky, which would contradict the statement that O'Brien didn't cheat on Keiko. :-) And yes, I loved her too, not least of which was because the writers actually thought out a gender role distinction that was more complex and different than "this is exactly like Earth sexism" or "this is exactly like Earth sexism but backward." The notion that Cardassians think that engineering is for women, and the women's perception of this notion is that men just aren't smart enough to be engineers (whereas the men probably think that engineering is icky and girly and who would want to be an engineer when you can be a SOLDIER!), was utterly fantastic. And I also loved that Cardassians have actually *codified* the movie trope of "we're hostile and sarcastic to each other, that must mean secret lust!" into how they really think about relationships.

My second introduction to Q was with the Vash episode on DS9. I hated him in Farpoint so badly I refused to watch TNG -- I thought he was a ripoff of several Classic Trek concepts that weren't great to begin with, and that he made no goddamn sense. Then I saw him interact with Vash and realized that we aren't *supposed* to take this character seriously as an "advanced" being. As a trickster god with all-too-human emotions, he worked for me *much* better than the whole "I am omnipotent, ph33r me!" crap he pulled at Farpoint. So I will always have a soft spot for that episode, and for Vash, even though in retrospect it was kind of a crap episode, because that's where I fell in love with Q.

[kangeiko]

I think you mean *struck* out? "Luck out" would imply that she got lucky, which would contradict the statement that O'Brien didn't cheat on Keiko. :-)

Ah, my lack of knowledge on Americanisms strikes again. Yes, I did indeed mean 'struck out'!

And I also loved that Cardassians have actually *codified* the movie trope of "we're hostile and sarcastic to each other, that must mean secret lust!" into how they really think about relationships.

Yes! One of these days, someone is going to a Cardassian The Rules book, and I'm going to love them for it.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

The girls and boys of the week the show came up with for our Starfleet crew tended to be bland, or, in one case, presenting unintended problematic subtext.

Which case was this? I can recall some *intended* problematic subtext but I'm not sure which one came with *unintended* problematic subtext.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how problematic the Doctor/patient thing with Bashir and Serena was supposed to be, especially coupled with the way the rest of the Jack Pack was written off as having to be locked away from society. But I was mainly thinking of Chimera, and the argument londonkds presented here (http://londonkds.livejournal.com/20864.html) and here (http://londonkds.livejournal.com/21622.html). (If one reads Laas as a boy of the week, that is.)

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

I wish I could remember which side I took in this debate. Probably not the right one, because of ardent love for Odo and Kira, but the changeling pride line of Quark's always deeply disturbed me.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You were in a Odo/Kira Forever! mode, as I recall, but you know, I'm not a shipper and I'm not completely convinced, either. Still, he makes a very good argument for one - very disturbing - way to read the episode.

On the bright side, I still think the ending with Odo getting into fluid shape and around Kira is a terrific visualization of alien sexuality.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

No doubt. Eh. Not to get into it again, but I don't think I've ever not seen that subtext and found it a bit creepy... but surely there's an argument to be made that Odo obviously self-identifies with solids. Which is why I find his ultimate fate to be disingenuous at best, but I don't think the DS9 writers ever really had a good grasp on what the real conflicts in his character were.

*is very mean*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ha, you know, when I collected the links for my fanfiction page, I found an old DS9 vignette about Odo in Children of Time - Frozen (http://community.livejournal.com/celestial_templ/7759.html) - and thought: ZOMG! Future!Odo was a Doctor/Rose'shipper!

(Meanwhile, actual end of season 7 Odo is clearly more in tune with Stephen Moffat's interpretation of events of the beach scene...)

More seriously: Children of Time to me is still one of the best Odo character episodes because his love for Kira wasn't presented as romantic but chillingly ruthless.

Re: *is very mean*

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

That fic still rocks. I forgot all about it and then remembered - and LOL, I still do think Dax and Odo should have interesting conversations.

(Meanwhile, actual end of season 7 Odo is clearly more in tune with Stephen Moffat's interpretation of events...)

Heh.

See, I always think there was a missed opportunity in that Odo was basically a Bajoran-Changeling. Bajoran job, Bajoran father figure, Bajoran girlfriend. The writing staff never seemed to take that very seriously -- or at least, they took the components of it seriously enough but never squared the circle. Once Odo discovered the Changelings it became all rejection/attraction to his 'birth parents' and they never come back to what seems to be his real problem - his inability to fit in with the people who adopted him. I'm sure I've mentioned this, but that's why I find the ending where he goes off to the Great Link really bizarre, because other than a sense of duty to them it's hard to see why he'd abandon what he's starting to really achieve on the station.

More seriously: Children of Time to me is still one of the best Odo character episodes because his love for Kira wasn't presented as romantic but chillingly ruthless.

It's really the ONLY very successful Odo/Kira shippy episode. Although His Way is basically a very 'solid' romcom, and Chimera is interesting enough to continue discussions. I really like the episodes where there might be a random Odo/Kira hint or scene, though.

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Girl of the week? Hmm... I always found Black Cat's one-episode role/several episode references in Spectacular Spider-Man to be a nice alternative to the more standard Gwen/MJ/Peter triangle. It helps that of the cast so far, she's the only one who embraces his Spider-Man identity, which is a nice reversal.

And Tricia Heifer voice-acting is always welcome, even if just for riffing. Any kissing scene, say "Are you alive?" afterwards and get an instant laugh.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Tricia Helfer voice-acts Black Cat? Where can I get Spectacular Spider-Man?

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Well, if you don't want to do Bittorrent, the first DVD just came out, but they're releasing the episodes in arcs and Black Cat doesn't show up until the third arc about Venom. But even the Helferless episodes aren't too shabby.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

I really like this show. (And bombed a job interview just recently over it!) So have another recommendation. It manages to twist the Spider-Man mythos juuuust so at a certain point that leaves you genuinely curious to see what happens.

[beatrice_otter]

As to Rose and Mickey left behind in GitF: We already know that the Doctor has emergency programs written for the TARDIS in case he dies/whatever, we saw that when he sent Rose back home from Station One. So it's not like they would have been stuck there on a dead ship forever, y'know?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed. They weren't in lethal danger; Reinette was.