Nostalgia

[selenak]

One reason why despite the occasional need to get away I still think fandom and all it entails - especially discussions with fellow fen - is a great thing: one comes up with slightly insane cross fandom lightbulb moments and find they work for other people as well. My last two were Laurie being a female Dick Grayson and "if Vir Cotto was a Marvelverse character, he'd be Henry Hellrung". Trust me, it makes sense.

***

Once Battlestar Galactica is over, if I find time inspite of Darth Real Life overwhelming me, I want to to a compare and contrast post with Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Though there is the danger of being too glib and just sum it up with "DS9 did most things BSG did first, and did them better". Which is certainly true for some aspects, but not all. Right now, I find myself nostalgic for two particular aspects. One, oddly enough, is Benjamin Sisko. This is odd because Sisko never was among my DS9 favorites. I mean, I never hated him, or disliked him, but if you had asked me about "what's great about DS9?", there would have been a lot of characters and storylines I'd have named before coming around to good old Benjamin Sisko. Right now, however, the Sisko looks especially good for several reasons. He had strong relationships with both of the two female regular characters on his show. Neither was a romantic relationship, and the female characters, Kira and Dax, had their own storylines; in neither case these were consumed by Sisko's. Also, Sisko managed to be that rarity in any genre show: a man in a good relationship with his son and his father. Said son, Jake, did not want to follow his father's Starfleet footsteps, and did not. Somehow, Sisko did not see this as a personal insult or make it all about him. When Sisko thought everything was falling apart and withdrew to brood about it, it only took two episodes. (This did not mean that the third episode pushed a reset button, it means he got his act together.) Whether or not his overall development from sceptical Starfleet Officer to religious icon was good for him is debatable, but it wasn't at the expense of anyone else's development.

(Why do I still feel just like but not love for Benjamin Sisko? To tell you the truth, it's the baseball obsession. I just don't get baseball. Never did, never will. When in The West Wing Jed Bartlett came out as not liking baseball, either, to Toby, no less, I wanted to hug him.)

The other DS9 aspect I'm nostalgic about right now are, you guessed it, the women. Kira is on a lot of people's list of favourite DS9 characters, and it's easy to see why. She's three dimensional, she's tough but her flaws are genuine flaws, not "oh, that Kira, so stubborn!" nice ones), she has a variety of relationships through the show ("relationship" here meaning friendships, feuds and romances alike), and never is defined through just one of them, and she goes from second most powerful person on the station to most powerful. My own favourite female character is actually Dax, but I've always enjoyed Kira's storylines and knew that if an episode was Kira-centric, we'd be in for a treat. Also, I have to admit that the show knew how to write Kira from day 1, whereas with Dax they floundered a bit in season 1, and didn't hit their stride until season 2. One mistake they always avoided, from the pilot onwards, was to make Dax the soft one just because Kira was the tough one; we never got that kind of annoying set-up with our two female regulars. Jadzia Dax was a scientist, but she enjoyed her martial arts as well. Like Kira, she had a variety of interesting relationships (again in the sense of friendships and romances, not either/or) without being defined by them; she had a great sense of humour, knew how to throw a party, and was never judgmental (which doesn't mean she didn't have lines you did not cross over if you wanted to remain her friend). When I saw Watchmen in the cinema, I saw the newest Star Trek trailer as well. It still looks like a bit like Star Trek: High School to me (and, err: Star Trek: I'd Rather Make Star Wars, but that could be interviews), but it did evoke nostalgia. Not for Kirk & Co., though. For Dax, and Kira - and naturally for my favouritest favourites, Quark and his family, and Garak, and Bashir - and O'Brien, and Kai Winn, and Jake, and yes, for Benjamin Sisko. Oh, I do miss them.

***

A BSG vid reck: Untouchable, a Gaeta portrait. kindkit, one section in it is practically made for you, as it deals with the "why didn't we get this on screen problem" quite neatly.

Comments

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking that I wanted to watch DS9 again from the beginning. Yes to all you said. I'd add one more too -- there was a married couple with a plot and with tension. Miles and Keiko were good together and their relationship was solid but realistic. They weren't on the same page all the time. But when the chips were down they were there for each other. Usually married couples are dull and have no plot, or they hate each other.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

True. Mind you, Keiko was and for all I know is still massively resented by fandom, predictably enough. But I thought the show did a good job in showing a believable enduring marriage (the fact that as the show says Miles sometimes likes Bashir better doesn't negate this - different types of relationships!).

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I always liked Keiko. I suppose it's the shipping thing.

[redfiona10.livejournal.com]

How can you resent Keiko? It's not like she had an awesome life of luxury and decadence, she was a teacher, gosh darn it, and it's not like Miles O'Brian, lovely though he undoubtedly is, is that much of a catch.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

As A speculated, it probably was a shipping issue. I'm not sure; I clicked away when I came across Keiko rants.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Henry = Vir. YES.

I think Sally and Laurie in Watchmen were consciously based on Dinah Lance Sr. and Jr. aka Black Canary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary) in DC Comics, who were initially parallel universe alternates of each other but after DC abandoned its multiverse concept were retconned into mother and daughter.

DS9 and Baseball: I also have no interest in baseball, but was surprised by how much I enjoyed Take Me Out to the Holodeck, since it was far less nationalistic and more generic to all forms of sport than I had expected.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Henry-Vir equation was something that struck me when talking about Henry to harmonyangel, who isn't familiar with B5, which meant I had to explain my comparison and said Vir was a character who is nice, with self esteem issues, in a relationship with a charismatic messed up character which is arguably better for the other character - who needs someone like Vir as a friend - than for himself - but really really competent, and in his quiet way very heroic, which as the plot goes on becomes more and more important. And then it struck me that even the scenes where these put-upon nice guys lose their temper are similar: compare Vir's "Londo, are you trying to drive me insane?" outburst in Dust to Dust when Londo is rewriting his report again with Henry's "Tony, are you trying to drive me insane?" outburst when told mid-Los-Angeles-threatening crisis that he'll get a new villa plus film job.

Sally and Laurie: I can see that - the Dick Grayson comparison related specifically to Laury starting out the superhero life really young after having trained for it, expected to follow in the footsteps of an older mentor, and that her (belated) coming of age as a superhero involves choosing that life but this time with her own superhero identity and costume (as declared in her last line of dialogue - she won't be Silk Spectre anymore, as Dick Grayson didn't just grow out of being Robin but also didn't become Batman II but created Nightwing for himself).

I'm trying with Take Me Out To The Holodeck, as in theory I can see how much it has going for it as a good natured ensemble story. But the anti-baseball reflex keeps kicking in! (Seriously, I danced the dance of relief when the obligatory American show baseball episode/ subplot of episode in West Wing had the twist of Bartlet disliking the sport and being absolutely lousy at throwing (which is a problem when you're the President, apparantly, as you're supposed to open some Superbowl game or the other).

[oracne.livejournal.com]

*misses DS9*

[bethos.livejournal.com]

The DS9 nostalgia has really been going around lately. I'm on a rewatch myself, and I've been really struck this time through by how strong each character is both individually and as part of an ensemble network of a relationships. There are only a handful of shows I watch that manage to do this, you know?

(Also in addition to doing things DS9 did first and better, BSG is ... more depressing, to the point of sometimes being just kinda hard to watch for me sometimes.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Re: strong individually and as part of an ensemble: yes, I know what you mean, and think none of the other Treks managed it so well, either. Babylon 5 did. West Wing did. But other shows I love, like Farscape or Lost, do not; there are either clear leading character(s)/supporting characters divisions, and the supporters aren't as fleshed out, or some of the characters are layered and others shallow as paper independent from leading status. Oh, DS9!

Depressing: oh yes. More proof that RDM needs someone like Ira Behr for balance.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I mainlined a lot of DS9 in a very short time just before Christmas prepping the new book, and I missed them all over again.

On Sisko: he should be brilliant. My feeling is *whispers* AB isn't very good... And, yes, the bloody baseball.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

AB: I think he's variable. Sometimes he can't sell me anger, sometimes he can. He totally sold me on Sisko's love of cooking, fatherhood, things like that, and on his friendship with Dax (any incarnations of same). And you can tell he had a hoot playing a supervillain in Our Man Bashir, or Mirror!Sisko in the Mirrorverse episodes. There are little moments where his acting really adds to what the script provides, as when Sisko talks to Dax about Lenara, she tells him all is fine, and he stretches out his hand and puts her com sign straight - that gesture and his expression convey a lot about what Sisko is thinking and how he's worried for his friend but won't say anything. Or his reaction when Dukat mentions not being there for his son's birthday. (You know, back when Dukat wasn't Crazy Evil and Sisko was allowed to see him as having Non Evil Emotions.) He can to subtle.

On the other hand, breakdowns are, err, not his speciality. Though I'm now seeing them in a new appreciative light because of EJO's breakdowns...

[altariel.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, breakdowns are, err, not his speciality.

No ;-) I gather that on set, people were in tears at Benny Russell's breakdown in "Far Beyond the Stars", which leads me to agree with another commenter here that he's a far better theatre than TV actor. I suspect a lot of what he's doing simply doesn't communicate on TV. (Tho' you'd think he'd have got the hang of it after seven seasons.)

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

I love reading your DS9 posts. I really need to watch it all - I've just seen episodes here and there, which just leaves me craving more.

BSG I just can't get into - it's too grim for me, I need some kind of balance. Roslin is awesome, though.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

*misses DS9, too*

And I agree with those who say BSG is too depressing. It makes SCC look like a cheerful romp, and that says something. (Although SCC does have a (rather black) sense of humour, which BSG decidedly lacks)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I would say there is also a difference of running time - BSG was a tad more optimistic pre-New Caprica, and we have no idea how SCC will/would (*panicks and shakes fists at Fox*) handle its premise the next two seasons. But in conclusion, yes. It's like watching Lear on repeat. Whereas SCC is more like Hamlet. (I.e. also tragic but with a lot of wit in between.)

In conclusion: what IS Ira Behr doing these days?

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

It's like watching Lear on repeat.

Now I have this really horrible vision of EJO as King Lear in my head. And Jamie Bamber as Cordelia...

what IS Ira Behr doing these days?

The TV version of Crash, it seems. And before that, he did The 4400 (has momentary starry-eyed vision of Ira Behr running Heroes).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

But James Callis would make a great Edmund! And Michael Hogan is already playing Kent.

(Have I boasted yet that I have the Ian McKellen/SylvesterMcCoy Lear on dvd?)

Also, there is a tv version of Crash? The David Cronenberg movie about people getting off on car crashs? *mind boggles*

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

What I love/hate about BSG: we can shout to the rooftop that 'if you like BSG you should really try Star Trek: DS9' and it's still the dark horse most unloved Star Trek. *shakes her head*

I like baseball. It's a far more interesting game than American football, which is a game I literally LOATHE.

I also don't think Avery Brooks is bad in the role of Sisko, certainly not once they start tailoring it for him around the middle of season two. His breakdowns tend to be stagey -- I think they'd be more impressive in the theater and that they don't work that well on television.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It's a mystery. Though not as big a mystery as why the film industry's latest attempt to cash in on the mostly positive BSG resonance is wanting to make a movie based on Glen Larson's 70s version. I mean, of course classic BSG still has its loyal fans, but they're probably thinking of drawing the new crowd to the theatre, and if they think they can do that with old style Cylons and male Starbucks, well...

*concludes that the Abrams ST has given people wrong idea about fannish wishes*

Avery Brooks: see above my reply to Altariel. (Including the fact EJO is currently giving me a new appreciation for Sisko's breakdowns.) And yes, I can see the theatre/tv difference, although I must point out my guy Patrick Stewart who was as theatre-esque as they come in his schooling broke down tv-friendly in season 2's Sarek. But addition to the subtle Sisko moments I singled out for praising Brooks above, let me say that compared to El Shatner, even his "stagey" moments are absolute masterpieces.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

It's Star Trek, we like our leads to have a slice of cheese. Your response is good.


*concludes that the Abrams ST has given people wrong idea about fannish wishes*

I worry that Watchmen will tank next week at the Box Office and reinforce it. Meanwhile: that Glen Larson thing... I can only assume someone optioned it to have it and that it won't actually be made. Because I cannot believe anyone in Hollywood is quite that stupid.

[abigail-n.livejournal.com]

there is the danger of being too glib and just sum it up with "DS9 did most things BSG did first, and did them better"

I don't know, that was pretty much the conclusion I came to (http://wrongquestions.blogspot.com/2008/01/back-through-wormhole-part-iv-looking.html). Mainly, the difference is that DS9 had more guts. Most of the issues that BSG sidled up to - genocide, terrorism, political assassination - DS9 faced head-on, and it did a much better job with religion, too. Also, stronger female characters, more compelling relationships, better plotting, and more attention paid to second and third tier characters and the show's world. Aside from stylistic issues - special effects, wardrobe, design, naturalistic language - I'm struggling to think of a single aspect of the two shows in which DS9 doesn't leave BSG in the dust.

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

I've just been watching the beginning of DS9 season 7 for the first time, and mostly so far (apart from the appalling baseball episode -- what were they thinking?) I've been struck by how much the absence of Jadzia has changed the dynamic. It is wonderful to have a show with so many strong, interesting female characters -- not just the leads, but Winn and many minors & one offs.

I've been thinking a lot about Sisko of late (sparked by the whole Racefail debate). To be honest, I've never much liked the character -- like Altariel, I'm rather put off by AB's stagey performance -- but I did find the story arc on the conflict between his religious & Star Fleet sides fascinating. I also like some aspects of the father-son relationship, particularly, as you mention, the way in which Jake is allowed to choose a career path different from that of his father without it being a huge deal.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Now I really want to re-watch DS9.