Lost: Namaste and He's Our You

[selenak]

In which there is more confirmation Lost follows the circular logic model of time travel, and I just love how this show plays with expectations. Oh, Lost, I so adore your later seasons. Occasional goofs not withstanding. *hearts island show*



I don't have much to say about Namaste, partly because it's overshadowed by its successor which I watched immediately after. Also because I spent much of it frustratedly growling "but if this is 1977, where is young Ben?!?", but wouldn't you know it, in the final scene they delivered, and then some, in the next ep. More about this in a moment. Of course, I'm somewhat frustrated we didn't get to see Sawyer's and Juliet's first encounter with Harry Potter little Benjamin, but I agree the meeting with Sayid was more important and deserved to be delivered without precedents. Otherwise, Namaste offered less quadrangle stuff than I had feared (Juliet especially has been impressively adult so far), and it totally cracks me up Jack got qualified as a workman by the Dharma initiative. That chat with Sawyer about respective leadership qualitive was a good character moment, too. In the current-day plot thread, Sun turned out to be playing Ben who thought he was playing her, which I loved as well. I knew that whacking from behind was coming, but mostly because we've already seen Ben is with the rest of the crashed newbies in worse shape than he was when entering the plane, not with Sun and Frank Lapidus on the main island. Maybe a tiny bit because lying and striking from behind is such a classic Sun tactic, too.

The baby turning out to be Ethan was a neat touch.

Now, on to He's Our You. Back when The Shape of Things To Come first was broadcast, one of my main delights was the reversal of one particular fannish expectation. After the earlier revelation that Sayid was working as an assassin for Ben in the flash forwards, fans expected Ben had somehow blackmailed him into it, a la Michael. But The Shape of Things To Come flashforwards revealed among other things that while Ben was certainly being his manipulative self, Sayid volunteered with eyes wide open and asked Ben for the job. Now, in this season opener it's made clear Ben and Sayid had a parting of the ways before the O6 get together again. Everyone, including yours truly, promptly assumed Sayid either found out something that made him stop working for Ben or otherwise had belated ethical qualms again, or broke it off for other reasons, but we all thought it was Sayid who quit. Turns out we were wrong. Ben telling Sayid basically "thanks, that was it, go have a nice life" was one of those Lost moments where I squeed about being proven wrong. Also at Sayid going "what? But you can't fire me! What should I do now?" This makes the story ever so much more delicious. Because there is a reason Sayid keeps falling back into these patterns, and it's not just fate having it in for him. Of course, Ben's mind-messing "it's in your nature" statement later is too simple an explanation, either. But the truth is that Sayid had a lot of options other than volunteering to become an assassin for a man whose ruthlessness he knew all too well. But working for Ben gave him purpose, and someone to blame for being so very good at death as well. He needed Ben more than Ben needed him. Is it manipulation if someone knows he's being manipulated and responds anyway? (A question about Ben and any number of other characters, of course.) Even with their last pre-island encounter: Sayid for all his grand speech to Hurley about never doing what Ben tells you to do does exactly what Ben wants him to do; he goes and kills the guy outside Hurley's asylum and gets Hurley.

And then, courtesy of the island and time travel, he gets to meet Ben at age 12. And the Dharma Initiative's not so fun side, as opposed to the one our other heroes saw in the last three years. It's all a great chicken and egg, cause and effect thing. The Dharma Initiative members voting to kill the suspect individual in their midst, the Dharma Initiative ending up wiped out; I think we can see the connecting links here. So far, Sawyer and Juliet didn't tell them what's to come, and now the rest of them won't either. Sayid, under drugs, did, but because they used drugs they themselves have ensured they won't listen to this warning. Meanwhile, young Benjamin L. gets an illustration in human nature and everyone's ethics. Ben at this point is already a smart kid (I knew that burning van was a distraction so he could break Sayid out of jail) with an abusive father, but is he already someone capable of endless mindgames, dealing out death and at least shared responsibility for a massacre, in other words, is he already a sociopath? I think not. But both seeing the adults being ready to execute on suspicion and someone he had helped and who was nice to him turn on him and shoot him should help some considerable steps along the way.

Now, because this show doesn't seem to do alternate timelines, I don't think kid!Ben is dead. We'll either get an island-granted miracle cure for the shooting (which btw. could explain why Richard picked Ben as leader once the kid had grown up, and further emphasize the parallels between Ben and Locke), or the irony of Workman!Jack saving Ben (again) by supreme doctorly skills. But Sayid doesn't know that. And of all the characters, Sayid really is the one I see capable of both coming to the conclusion that he doesn't care about screwing up timelines, not get into any debates with anyone about it, and answer that old sci fi question "would you kill Hitler if you travelled back in time?" with "yes, absolutely". And do it. (Err, not that Ben is Hitler. But choosing another example would be coy on my part, because that is how this particular chestnut is phrased.) Just to make sure to really mess both him and Ben up further, this doesn't mean the show doesn't also take the trouble of letting Sayid witness one starling example of the grand gallery of bad parents on Lost, Roger Linus, who only doesn't get the "worst father" award because Anthony Cooper is such tough competition. (BTW, no surprise at all Sayid's father wasn't a champ, either.) And to feel some compassion for young Benjamin accordingly. As opposed to the rest of our guys, though, this does not stop him from carrying out his "kill the evil one" plan, though, thereby contributing to making Ben into his future personal Mephistopheles. Which I think Sayid will realize and have more things to feel guilty about, not that he needs them.

Lastly: I wouldn't be surprised if Sayid decided to remain celibate. Or discover the joys of gay sex, if he hasn't already. Clearly, women he feels attracted to either die, try to kill him, or tie him up after beating the crap out of him. Incidentally, I think Bounty Hunter woman was telling the truth - because she really works for Charles Widmore.

Comments

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Ben telling Sayid basically "thanks, that was it, go have a nice life" was one of those Lost moments where I squeed about being proven wrong. Also at Sayid going "what? But you can't fire me! What should I do now?"

And, oh, the look in Sayid's eyes at that moment was some lovely, subtle acting. It was a bit sort of... lost puppy-dog. Which, in context, is messed-up and wonderful.

He needed Ben more than Ben needed him. Is it manipulation if someone knows he's being manipulated and responds anyway? (A question about Ben and any number of other characters, of course.)

You know, lately I've been thinking about just how much Ben reminds me of Garak in certain ways... Here's another one, I guess, because they both do on certain memorable occasions have that "you know what I'm doing and you're going to let me anyway and I know it" thing going on. :)

but is he already someone capable of endless mindgames, dealing out death and at least shared responsibility for a massacre, in other words, is he already a sociopath? I think not.

I love the fact that he's already believably Ben -- smart, manipulative, perfectly willing to engage in betrayals and wonton destruction of property to suit his own ends -- but also believably a twelve-year-old kid who can't keep himself from crying when his dad beats on him. It's very well done; you don't usually see child characters handled that deftly on TV.

I think not. But both seeing the adults being ready to execute on suspicion and someone he had helped and who was nice to him turn on him and shoot him should help some considerable steps along the way.

This is the grand irony of trying to shoot your way out of time travel paradoxes. Sayid really should have read more science fiction. :)

We'll either get an island-granted miracle cure for the shooting (which btw. could explain why Richard picked Ben as leader once the kid had grown up, and further emphasize the parallels between Ben and Locke),

This is what I'm assuming will happen. It feels right, you know?

And of all the characters, Sayid really is the one I see capable of both coming to the conclusion that he doesn't care about screwing up timelines, not get into any debates with anyone about it, and answer that old sci fi question "would you kill Hitler if you travelled back in time?" with "yes, absolutely". And do it.

Oh yes. And yet there's enough complexity and ambiguity about Sayid that I didn't actually anticipate that that's what he was going to do. Just felt that I should have after he did it. :)

Just to make sure to really mess both him and Ben up further, this doesn't mean the show doesn't also take the trouble of letting Sayid witness one starling example of the grand gallery of bad parents on Lost,

One does indeed get the impression that Sayid felt genuinely sympathetic and understanding towards the kid in that moment, which, of course, just makes what he's planning to do all the ouchier. Oh, I do love this show and its emotional twistiness and twistedness. :) And, man, how much would adult Ben hate knowing that Sayid had seen that?

Or discover the joys of gay sex, if he hasn't already.

Well, that would greatly please a certain segment of fandom. ;)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And, oh, the look in Sayid's eyes at that moment was some lovely, subtle acting. It was a bit sort of... lost puppy-dog. Which, in context, is messed-up and wonderful.

Oh yes. Naveen Andrews sometimes gets nothing to do on this show (err, during most of s3), but ever since the future assassin thing came up, they keep giving him the good stuff, and he comes through every time. Boy, when you're depressed about Ben not requiring your services anymore (and this without him killing you), you're messed up even for Lost standards. I can't get over the fact that nobody but nobody guessed THIS was how they parted! *admires show*

Here's another one, I guess, because they both do on certain memorable occasions have that "you know what I'm doing and you're going to let me anyway and I know it" thing going on. :)

True, that. Now I want an AU where Ben, not Sloan, leads that Federation secret service and has an encounter with Garak.

I love the fact that he's already believably Ben -- smart, manipulative, perfectly willing to engage in betrayals and wonton destruction of property to suit his own ends -- but also believably a twelve-year-old kid who can't keep himself from crying when his dad beats on him. It's very well done; you don't usually see child characters handled that deftly on TV.

They're really doing well with him (and btw great casting). That "if you're patient, too" to Sayid was mini Mastermind!Ben, while his unabashed awesome!type of reaction when watching Sayid take out Jin was so very twelve years old boy. And of course the entire terror and flinching in pain from his father while not letting that keep him from plotting his "must run away to the Others" escape reminded me of my grand theory why Ben keeps going through his "get captured/beaten/tortured by enemies, get to know them that way, turn tables on them" scheme of things again and again; at its most basic, it's the first defense mechanism he came up with as a child, because he had to. Under the circumstances it's a minor miracle his relationship with Alex wasn't more screwed up than it already was.

This is the grand irony of trying to shoot your way out of time travel paradoxes. Sayid really should have read more science fiction. :)

Clearly. Incidently, what do you think John Crichton would have done if he had met child!Scorpius?

And, man, how much would adult Ben hate knowing that Sayid had seen that?

Muchly. And now he WILL remember Sayid seeing this, if we take the Desmond/Daniel precedent of Desmond only remembering Daniel giving him his message after Daniel had done so in Daniel's timeline, but not before. Can't wait to find out how he'll react. If, you know, his attention isn't more on the fact he's about to wake up to Locke seeing him again....

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

I can't get over the fact that nobody but nobody guessed THIS was how they parted! *admires show*

It does still have the ability to go totally unexpected places. Which, when you have a gazillion fans busily generating a gazillion speculations about your every move, is particularly impressive. :)

True, that. Now I want an AU where Ben, not Sloan, leads that Federation secret service and has an encounter with Garak.

Dude! I think you should write it, because I absolutely would read it. :)

They're really doing well with him (and btw great casting).

It's amazing casting, because the kid not only very much looks the part, but he's got the acting nailed, too.

at its most basic, it's the first defense mechanism he came up with as a child, because he had to.

Ooh, yes. That's a good, insightful thought. I'm quite ready to believe that.

Under the circumstances it's a minor miracle his relationship with Alex wasn't more screwed up than it already was.

Very true! Important as her death probably was in driving Ben's subsequent motivations, I really am quite sorry about it, because that's a relationship I would have loved to see explored more. But it's not exactly a time period that gets visited by flashbacks or time travelers, alas.

Clearly. Incidently, what do you think John Crichton would have done if he had met child!Scorpius?

It's a damned good question. And a very closely analogous situation, actually; I was thinking of Scorpius a bit, myself. I doubt Crichton could have brought himself to kill the kid, probably, but he certainly would have thought about it.

Muchly. And now he WILL remember Sayid seeing this,

Mind you, I doubt he'll talk about it, except to say something snarkily dismissive if it ever comes up. Still... :)

if we take the Desmond/Daniel precedent of Desmond only remembering Daniel giving him his message after Daniel had done so in Daniel's timeline, but not before.

I have no idea whether that's how it's always supposed to work or not. But I suppose we'll find out.

If, you know, his attention isn't more on the fact he's about to wake up to Locke seeing him again....

Yes, that might be a bit distracting. ;)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It's amazing casting, because the kid not only very much looks the part, but he's got the acting nailed, too.

Oh yes. He can do the stare, and even the Emerson intonation. The force is strong in that one.

Ben and Alex: what you said. I hope we'll see at least how it started, because unless they have messed up their dates, we've still got the mystery of dream!Horace stating "I've been dead since twelve years" and Alex being sixteen at this point. Even if that was just bad maths and someone in the production team not paying attention, Ben must have gotten Alex after he joined the Others, not before, and very soon after, plus we got the pregnant Danielle scenes, so I think we will get a scene showing how and why Ben got baby/toddler Alex.

Did you see the Ben and Alex scene from early s3 which was among the deleted scenes on the dvds, btw?

It's a damned good question. And a very closely analogous situation, actually; I was thinking of Scorpius a bit, myself. I doubt Crichton could have brought himself to kill the kid, probably, but he certainly would have thought about it.

Yes to both. Though Crichton does know his science fiction, as opposed to Sayid, which would have made it easier for compassion to win over shooting your way out of a time paradox!

WW pointed out above that Ben must have always remembered Sayid if we take Richard and Widmore as models, both of whom always remembered Locke (when meeting him for the first time from Locke's pov), and that Desmond is special because he did the time travel flashes before everyone else got in the business. *g*

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

so I think we will get a scene showing how and why Ben got baby/toddler Alex.

Oh, I hope, I hope! You're right that the pregnant!Danielle scenes we've gotten recently does make it seem more likely.

Did you see the Ben and Alex scene from early s3 which was among the deleted scenes on the dvds, btw?

No, I haven't! I've only seen the DVDs from S1, and I did find some of the deleted scenes on YouTube, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that one, so I must not have found it. Hmm, I should go hunting for that, perhaps.

Though Crichton does know his science fiction, as opposed to Sayid, which would have made it easier for compassion to win over shooting your way out of a time paradox!

And if that's not enough to do it, his own experiences in "...Different Destinations" have certainly taught him the ill-advisedness of trying to mess with time. :)

Although, man, the idea of Crichton attempting to use compassion to alter kid!Scorpy's timeline sounds like a really interesting premise for a fic. :)

WW pointed out above that Ben must have always remembered Sayid if we take Richard and Widmore as models, both of whom always remembered Locke

Yes, good point! Desmod probably shouldn't be taken as a model for anybody else where this time travel stuff is concerned.

Somebody elsewhere mentioned that they enjoyed imagining what must be going through Ben's head when he first saw Sayid, to which I replied, "You know, if it were any other character, really, I'd probably be thinking, 'Oh, come on, this is too much of a retcon. I can't swallow that he knew Sayid this whole time from when he was 12 and never gave any indication of it.' But with Ben... Well, sure. :)"

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ben and Alex deleted scene: here it is, if you haven't found it yet. It's from the start of s3:



And because there can't be enough Locke and Ben scenes, here's a deleted one in which they talk about Alex near the end of s3:



Although, man, the idea of Crichton attempting to use compassion to alter kid!Scorpy's timeline sounds like a really interesting premise for a fic. :)

WRITE IT, I say, for verily, you must.

And yes. Ben is just the type to keep that kind of "oh, I met you when I was twelve and you shot me" secret.*g*

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thank you! I hadn't had a chance to go looking for those yet, as it happens, and they're definitely worth watching. Good old Ben. That first one almost makes me feel sorry for him, and I kind of have to concede that he has a point in the second one, in his own twisted kind of way. :)

WRITE IT, I say, for verily, you must.

Maybe I'll put it on next year's finish-a-thon list. :)

And yes. Ben is just the type to keep that kind of "oh, I met you when I was twelve and you shot me" secret.*g*

Absolutely. And if anybody ever asks him why he didn't say anything, you know he'll just calmly reply, "You never asked." :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The first one also gives an additonal layer to Alex' death scene, because that's the only time in the entire show she calls him daddy, again and again. Not that she doesn't refer to him as her father a lot of other times - she usually says "my father" when talking about him, to Locke, for example - but when she's on the phone with Ben and is scared out of her wits, it's the first time we hear her use that form of address unironically, and pleadingly. And then there's the horrible tragic irony of Ben, so secure in his ability to manipulate, trying to bluff Keamy with "I don't care if she dies" (the very words Alex uses in the deleted scene), and that's the last thing Alex hears. No wonder Ben has his only on screen breakdown after that one.

Second one, and Ben's point: well, yes, though Locke actually didn't know who his parents were when he was a child and that just helped screwing him over as an adult, but otherwise, with other characters, on this show? Ben does have a twisted point. Mind you, it's questionable whether Rousseau would have lost it as much as she intermittently did if Alex hadn't been taken from her, so, chicken, egg.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there are mega-layers of ouchiness to Alex's death, and that scene just makes them ouchier.

well, yes, though Locke actually didn't know who his parents were when he was a child and that just helped screwing him over as an adult,

I kind of thought that what he really meant was, "If you were raised by someone you thought was your real father, instead of going looking for him later and wishing you hadn't." Which, put like that, is kind of hard to argue with.

Mind you, it's questionable whether Rousseau would have lost it as much as she intermittently did if Alex hadn't been taken from her, so, chicken, egg.

Oh, yeah. And even if that weren't true, I don't think Ben's logic actually justifies, y'know, kidnapping. Especially as I've always felt that Rousseau isn't nearly as crazy as people say she is, anyway. :) But he really does have a remarkable way of making the most unjustifiable things seem reasonable.