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selenakIn which I fall more in love with this show than ever.
Another episode with three different plot threads which all reflected on each other and brought out subtleties - Jesse's past/future, current John with Derek, Jesse and Sarah, and Catherine Weaver, John Henry and James Ellison. There are two ways in which this episode both delivered and subverted on build up expectations. Firstly, given the previous episode, it was obvious something would go horribly wrong on that submarine and would be the trigger event to transform Jesse into who she is today. But because of the horror/sci fi genre expectations built into the audience, that something was expected to be either Queeg the captain going beserk or the content of the box or both. Now, the content of the box does kill one of the crew, but it's no alien from Alien which gets hunted and takes out the crew one by one. And Queeg kills a human being, but only because said human is violently attacking Jesse and inciting a ganged-up beating on her. Indeed, the whole sorry tale of the submarine Jimmy Carter puts blame on everyone's shoulders, it's not a horror scenario of a machine gone wrong. Future John Connor is at fault for the absolute secrecy which heightens the crew's paranoia, the pressure they're under. The crew is at fault, lashing out against each other and their human commander all too easily. Queeg the captain is at fault, though he least of all, because he's simply following his programming and not flexible enough to see that a little variation - simply telling Jesse what they're transporting when she asks the first time, say - would help the mission to no end.
And then there's the T-1001 in the box. Who might or might not be Catherine Weaver, but who at any rate illustrates what I and a lot of others have speculated on to be true; a) the machine side of the future war is divided in itself, and not simply because John Connor managed to reprogramm several terminators, but because Skynet isn't the only faction around, and b) Future John tries to get one side to ally with him and end the war this way. The reason why "will you work with us?" as a question is so shocking to Jesse when she finally hears it isn't the basic idea of using machines against machines; Future John and the resistance have been doing that for a good while. But so far, these have been reprogammed machines. They weren't asked for their cooperation, they were made to cooperate via rewiring, if you will. What this proposal sounds like is voluntary cooperation, an alliance of equals, without the safety latch of the human side being in control of their machine allies to make sure they don't turn against them. (May we say it sounds like current day teenage John handing back Cameron her gun even though her programming still tells her to kill him, gambling on her ability to override it?) But of course, if you make such a proposal, you risk that a) your human allies think you're nuts and b) the machines say no and kill you anyway. Though it's interesting that the T-1001 on board the submarine kills "just" the one woman threatening her with a weapon, and no one else, though this might simply be because it's not threatened by someone else at that point and wants the submarine to reach its destination.
Meanwhile, in the present, we have John Henry, Catherine Weaver and James Ellison. Ellison really does treat John Henry like a child now, giving in to the "please let me stay up late and paint my action figures, dad?" demand and even helping with the painting, though he's still sufficiently creeped out not to reply to the "are we friends now?" John Henry, for his part, has arrived at the conclusion that they are, as he calls Ellison a friend when talking to Catherine Weaver later. And what's really fascinating is this: if John Henry "feels" something for Ellison, it would be a first. Because John and Cameron are a special case; she might or might not be voluntarily attached to him now, depending on how you define feelings for AIs, but it started from her pov via a reprogramming. John Henry, on the other hand, has not been programmed to have any kind of attachment or subordination to Ellison; Ellison is not essential for his survival; so anything pro-Ellison John Henry does would be in response to the attention and kindness Ellison has shown to John Henry. "Human beings will dissapoint you," says T-Catherine who neither loves nor hates Ellison and values him but has a continguency plan just in case he becomes inconvenient. They might or might not. I spotted some potential trouble about this whole "eyes are the windows to the soul" business and Ellison's insistence on the sanctity of human life because of the soul. Because should Ellison inform John Henry that machines do not have souls, how will John Henry react?
The current day John plot thread was fascinating, among other things, because it offered the best demonstration yet why John one day will be accepted as leader by so many humans. And it was another way in which build-up was followed and subverted. A lesser show might have made the whole John figures it out and confronts Jesse plot into John wanting to kill Jesse in revenge for Riley and Derek holding him back both because Derek loves Jesse and because he doesn't want his nephew to kill. Not this show. Instead, the conversation between John and Jesse wasn't about revenge at all. It was brutally honest, not least because John without excusing Jesse Talked about his own degree of guilt in Riley’s fate. And not in a teenage “woe is me” manner. Actually, he wasn’t behaving like a teenager throughout this entire conversation; that was an adult man Jesse was talking to, and she responded to him accordingly. It also answered for me one question I had: if Jesse, for understandable reasons, btw, has arrived at the conclusion Future!John isn’t working as a resistance leader anymore, why does she go through the complicated time travel and set up business instead of, you know, simply taking out “her” John Connor of the time she’s living in, and tries to either replace him herself or look for some other candidate to lead the resistance? Well, it seems she still respects him too much for this, not wanting him out of the way but changed, and given the kind of conversation they have, you can see where that respect is coming from.
The Derek and John interaction, too, was the most mature we’ve seen so far between them. Derek always had and has a double vision of John; boy/nephew on the one hand and Future Leader Whom He Resents As Much As Admires on the other, and he keeps switching between whom he treats him as. In their conversations here, both elements are present as well, but what struck me especially was the note of emotional closeness, arguably the most since Derek showing John his future father. Also, when John tells Jesse that both Derek and Riley only had the two of them this shows an awareness I hadn’t been sure of before.
Sarah only has a few scenes in this episode, but they’re striking. The conversation with Cameron is an awesome psychological blow (and btw shows that at least subconsciously, Sarah sees Cameron as a person and one who has some kind of attachment to John, because the “if Future!John sent you away, he must want you gone from himself” ploy would not work on an unfeeling machine), and I can’t wait for the result. And then there is the final scene, where John after being mature all the episode finally breaks down and cries, and she comforts him, in a reverse image to him comforting her after her breakdown in the Mexican desert. These two often misunderstand each other (see Sarah in this episode attempting to evoke nostalgia for a “normal” period in their lives which as it turns out John wasn’t fond of at all), but they’re still each other’s most important human tie. And there you have the problem of Future!John. Current day John, trying to understand his future self and Future John sending machines instead of people for protection, says to Jesse that human beings can never be replaced, or fixed, or repaired; once they are gone, they are gone forever. You will never ever see them again. There is an unspoken addendum here: machines will stay with you. They won’t leave your or be taken away by death, or only rarely. One day, Sarah will die, if not through cancer, then through violence. One day, Derek will die. And the way it looks like right now, John won’t let anyone human get that close again – and thus will trigger the situation that sends Jesse back to the past.
But this show has multiple timelines. Which offers hope. Who knows what lessons were learned?
Another episode with three different plot threads which all reflected on each other and brought out subtleties - Jesse's past/future, current John with Derek, Jesse and Sarah, and Catherine Weaver, John Henry and James Ellison. There are two ways in which this episode both delivered and subverted on build up expectations. Firstly, given the previous episode, it was obvious something would go horribly wrong on that submarine and would be the trigger event to transform Jesse into who she is today. But because of the horror/sci fi genre expectations built into the audience, that something was expected to be either Queeg the captain going beserk or the content of the box or both. Now, the content of the box does kill one of the crew, but it's no alien from Alien which gets hunted and takes out the crew one by one. And Queeg kills a human being, but only because said human is violently attacking Jesse and inciting a ganged-up beating on her. Indeed, the whole sorry tale of the submarine Jimmy Carter puts blame on everyone's shoulders, it's not a horror scenario of a machine gone wrong. Future John Connor is at fault for the absolute secrecy which heightens the crew's paranoia, the pressure they're under. The crew is at fault, lashing out against each other and their human commander all too easily. Queeg the captain is at fault, though he least of all, because he's simply following his programming and not flexible enough to see that a little variation - simply telling Jesse what they're transporting when she asks the first time, say - would help the mission to no end.
And then there's the T-1001 in the box. Who might or might not be Catherine Weaver, but who at any rate illustrates what I and a lot of others have speculated on to be true; a) the machine side of the future war is divided in itself, and not simply because John Connor managed to reprogramm several terminators, but because Skynet isn't the only faction around, and b) Future John tries to get one side to ally with him and end the war this way. The reason why "will you work with us?" as a question is so shocking to Jesse when she finally hears it isn't the basic idea of using machines against machines; Future John and the resistance have been doing that for a good while. But so far, these have been reprogammed machines. They weren't asked for their cooperation, they were made to cooperate via rewiring, if you will. What this proposal sounds like is voluntary cooperation, an alliance of equals, without the safety latch of the human side being in control of their machine allies to make sure they don't turn against them. (May we say it sounds like current day teenage John handing back Cameron her gun even though her programming still tells her to kill him, gambling on her ability to override it?) But of course, if you make such a proposal, you risk that a) your human allies think you're nuts and b) the machines say no and kill you anyway. Though it's interesting that the T-1001 on board the submarine kills "just" the one woman threatening her with a weapon, and no one else, though this might simply be because it's not threatened by someone else at that point and wants the submarine to reach its destination.
Meanwhile, in the present, we have John Henry, Catherine Weaver and James Ellison. Ellison really does treat John Henry like a child now, giving in to the "please let me stay up late and paint my action figures, dad?" demand and even helping with the painting, though he's still sufficiently creeped out not to reply to the "are we friends now?" John Henry, for his part, has arrived at the conclusion that they are, as he calls Ellison a friend when talking to Catherine Weaver later. And what's really fascinating is this: if John Henry "feels" something for Ellison, it would be a first. Because John and Cameron are a special case; she might or might not be voluntarily attached to him now, depending on how you define feelings for AIs, but it started from her pov via a reprogramming. John Henry, on the other hand, has not been programmed to have any kind of attachment or subordination to Ellison; Ellison is not essential for his survival; so anything pro-Ellison John Henry does would be in response to the attention and kindness Ellison has shown to John Henry. "Human beings will dissapoint you," says T-Catherine who neither loves nor hates Ellison and values him but has a continguency plan just in case he becomes inconvenient. They might or might not. I spotted some potential trouble about this whole "eyes are the windows to the soul" business and Ellison's insistence on the sanctity of human life because of the soul. Because should Ellison inform John Henry that machines do not have souls, how will John Henry react?
The current day John plot thread was fascinating, among other things, because it offered the best demonstration yet why John one day will be accepted as leader by so many humans. And it was another way in which build-up was followed and subverted. A lesser show might have made the whole John figures it out and confronts Jesse plot into John wanting to kill Jesse in revenge for Riley and Derek holding him back both because Derek loves Jesse and because he doesn't want his nephew to kill. Not this show. Instead, the conversation between John and Jesse wasn't about revenge at all. It was brutally honest, not least because John without excusing Jesse Talked about his own degree of guilt in Riley’s fate. And not in a teenage “woe is me” manner. Actually, he wasn’t behaving like a teenager throughout this entire conversation; that was an adult man Jesse was talking to, and she responded to him accordingly. It also answered for me one question I had: if Jesse, for understandable reasons, btw, has arrived at the conclusion Future!John isn’t working as a resistance leader anymore, why does she go through the complicated time travel and set up business instead of, you know, simply taking out “her” John Connor of the time she’s living in, and tries to either replace him herself or look for some other candidate to lead the resistance? Well, it seems she still respects him too much for this, not wanting him out of the way but changed, and given the kind of conversation they have, you can see where that respect is coming from.
The Derek and John interaction, too, was the most mature we’ve seen so far between them. Derek always had and has a double vision of John; boy/nephew on the one hand and Future Leader Whom He Resents As Much As Admires on the other, and he keeps switching between whom he treats him as. In their conversations here, both elements are present as well, but what struck me especially was the note of emotional closeness, arguably the most since Derek showing John his future father. Also, when John tells Jesse that both Derek and Riley only had the two of them this shows an awareness I hadn’t been sure of before.
Sarah only has a few scenes in this episode, but they’re striking. The conversation with Cameron is an awesome psychological blow (and btw shows that at least subconsciously, Sarah sees Cameron as a person and one who has some kind of attachment to John, because the “if Future!John sent you away, he must want you gone from himself” ploy would not work on an unfeeling machine), and I can’t wait for the result. And then there is the final scene, where John after being mature all the episode finally breaks down and cries, and she comforts him, in a reverse image to him comforting her after her breakdown in the Mexican desert. These two often misunderstand each other (see Sarah in this episode attempting to evoke nostalgia for a “normal” period in their lives which as it turns out John wasn’t fond of at all), but they’re still each other’s most important human tie. And there you have the problem of Future!John. Current day John, trying to understand his future self and Future John sending machines instead of people for protection, says to Jesse that human beings can never be replaced, or fixed, or repaired; once they are gone, they are gone forever. You will never ever see them again. There is an unspoken addendum here: machines will stay with you. They won’t leave your or be taken away by death, or only rarely. One day, Sarah will die, if not through cancer, then through violence. One day, Derek will die. And the way it looks like right now, John won’t let anyone human get that close again – and thus will trigger the situation that sends Jesse back to the past.
But this show has multiple timelines. Which offers hope. Who knows what lessons were learned?
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Date: 2009-03-27 12:21 pm (UTC)I hope he would slap Ellison upside the head (gently) and proceed to explain why Ellison cannot know this.
Watching this show through the prism of current debates in cognitive neuroscience and AI adds an extra level of thinkiness--not that it was needed. They can take it as slow as they want, as long as there is this kind of payoff.
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Date: 2009-03-27 02:34 pm (UTC)Seriously, though, I love both that the show takes its time and the way it delivers. Hooray for smart tv and complex characters!
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Date: 2009-03-27 12:33 pm (UTC)What struck me the most about that statement was the fact that John couldn't fix Cameron, either, any more than he could fix Riley. This seems to me to be an inclusive definition of what makes someone important, that can apply to machines as well as humans - Cameron can't be replaced, either, nor John Henry, nor Catherine Weaver. And in fact, John's words remind me a lot of what Catherine Weaver said in one of the first scenes we met her about why the Turk was important and had to be protected. To Catherine Weaver, humans were interchangeable, and the Turk was the one who couldn't be duplicated or replaced, but the underlying definition of what made someone important was the same. Contrast that with Ellison's definition of humans as important because they are God's children and were made in His image, which applies to humans alone, and as you said, it's not hard to see how John Henry might react badly to the implication that humans are important, but he is not.
I think that the biggest mistake Future!John made that led to the tragedy on the Jimmy Carter was that he was treating the humans under his command the same way he was treating the machines. He assumed that just because the machines he had reprogrammed were ready to work with humans, then that meant that the humans were ready to work with machines. And I'm hoping that what happened with Riley and Jesse has taught him that he should never take humans for granted in his plans, that changing the minds of the humans is just as important as changing the minds of the machines. (I talk a lot about this in my review (http://veritykindle.livejournal.com/72392.html) of the episode, in case you are interested. :) ) And the fact that the episode ended with John asking Derek about the humans he will one day command seems to imply to me that he did learn that lesson, which means that Jesse's actions actually might have prevented the tragedy on the Jimmy Carter from happening, if not in the way that Jesse expected.
And the way it looks like right now, John won’t let anyone human get that close again – and thus will trigger the situation that sends Jesse back to the past.
It's interesting - John's words to Jesse seems to imply that he thought Future!John had chosen who to send back because those were the people he could afford to lose, and yet it seems clear to me that, with the possible exception of Arnie from T2, whose future relationship to John we know nothing about, the people Future!John actually sent back were the ones he cared about the most, the ones who were closest to him - his father, his uncle, his closest confidante. I think John's mistake isn't that he doesn't let himself get close to anyone - it's that like Cameron, he sees it as a weakness. He sees the fact that he is human as something he has to suppress, so that he can figure out how to win "his giant chess game" against Skynet. And hopefully, with Sarah still alive and the John of the present therefore getting more of an opportunity to sit back and learn about more about both sides of the war in relative safety, John will have a chance to see that this is the wrong way to approach things.
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Date: 2009-03-27 03:01 pm (UTC)*nods* There are presumably other models of Cameron's line, there are other T-1001s, and if John Henry got blown up tomorrow, there would be another sentient AI developing - but they would be different, just as twins aren't the same individual, either.
I think that the biggest mistake Future!John made that led to the tragedy on the Jimmy Carter was that he was treating the humans under his command the same way he was treating the machines
Oh absolutely, and I agree with the points you raise in your review. It's the shadow side of John's ability to work with machines and to be so familiar with them; at some point, he lost sight of how other humans react.
yet it seems clear to me that, with the possible exception of Arnie from T2, whose future relationship to John we know nothing about, the people Future!John actually sent back were the ones he cared about the most, the ones who were closest to him - his father, his uncle, his closest confidante.
Back when Jesse was yelling at Riley "I gave you paradise!" it also occured to me that in a way, this is what Future!John does for everyone he sends back, except poor Kyle who didn't have much chance to enjoy the pre-Apocalyptic world. But yes, there's also the "these are the people he's closest to, and thus, depending on one's pov, either his strengths or achillles heel" factor.
I think John's mistake isn't that he doesn't let himself get close to anyone - it's that like Cameron, he sees it as a weakness. He sees the fact that he is human as something he has to suppress, so that he can figure out how to win "his giant chess game" against Skynet. And hopefully, with Sarah still alive and the John of the present therefore getting more of an opportunity to sit back and learn about more about both sides of the war in relative safety, John will have a chance to see that this is the wrong way to approach things.
I hope so, too. Incidentally, Sarah herself is a fascinating parallel and contrast, because she's really not good at letting anyone close, either, and also thinks this could just get them killed (see Charlie), BUT she's still able to form connections to the people they meet on a distant yet friendly kind of level. (See: most guest stars this season, especially the women.) She listens to their stories and establishes some kind of trust, though it works usually somewhat one sided, i.e. Sarah either tells them nothing about herself or just rare aspects, but she does learn a lot about them. Given Sarah's ongoing struggle about whether or not to let even Derek, who literally is a part of the family, be close, she's something of an ambiguous role model there. On the other hand, Sarah is plainly horrified when hearing from Cameron John's future life will be so isolated, so I think both John and Sarah are on a learning curve here.
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Date: 2009-03-27 08:23 pm (UTC)Yes, I thought of that, too - especially in relation to Derek, who, in that flashback from right before he was sent back, so clearly needed to be sent somewhere far away from the war, or he would have found some way to get himself killed. Derek might have been too resentful of Future!John to realize it, but I am sure that Future!John would have recognized the signs of someone who was at the end of his rope and barely hanging on.
I love the way this show makes me reevaluate even old scenes from Season 1 and see them in a new light. :)
Incidentally, Sarah herself is a fascinating parallel and contrast, because she's really not good at letting anyone close, either, and also thinks this could just get them killed (see Charlie), BUT she's still able to form connections to the people they meet on a distant yet friendly kind of level.
Yes. Sarah fascinates me because her whole life is based around her attachment to John, which she sees as her greatest strength and the reason that she is still alive, and yet at the same time she believes that attachment to others is a weakness that can get them all killed. I think you are right that both Sarah and John will start making more of an effort to connect to other people, rather than continuing to push people away, and I think that can only be a good thing.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-27 07:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-27 07:57 pm (UTC)Which makes me wonder just which timeline Future!John sent Cameron from, given that there is no doubt that it was Future!John who sent her, and one of her first tasks was to help Sarah and past!John prevent the events in T3 from happening.
... OK, I've got to stop thinking about this. Time travel makes my head hurt. *g*
But you are right that if John's wife from T3 sent Arnie, then he wouldn't necessarily fit the pattern of all the other people John sent back. :D
no subject
Date: 2009-03-27 01:56 pm (UTC)This is an excerpt from my end of a conversation I've been having with
But yes, I love that what we see is how both sides are coming to terms in their own way - that Catherine Weaver is 'raising' both an AI and a human child, with Sarah doing the same. Both Johns are growing and evolving, learning to think for themselves, to decide and act upon what they perceive, while both Cameron and Ellison are teaching about themselves by being themselves, and learning about the other by observation and interaction. Weaver is also learning from Ellison and Savannah, and I think of that episode last season (I think) when one of the terminators - was it Cromartie? - was living with a woman, and when it killed her, did so quickly, with mercy and seeming regret. Will Weaver want Savannah to live, or if needing to kill her, do so with mercy, and will she regret it?
John would regret killing Cameron, because as you say, he sees her as an individual with the capacity for growth and perhaps even emotional intelligence, not just a machine protector/servant. John Henry calls Ellison a friend, but does he understand what that means? And I'm not sure about the message Ellison is trying to convey, that humanity is in God's image, and thus sacred. I think I'd prefer if he was saying that humans are individuals with hopes and dreams and fears and needs and failures and successes and love, and each one is irreplaceable in that way, not because of a religious reason. The same should apply to machines, since we've seen these AIs use creative and intelligent means to achieve their goals.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-27 02:42 pm (UTC)Yes, me too, and that's one of the reasons why I think it was a really good choice to, instead of just repeating the Cromartie s1 storyline, make Catherine Weaver into this season's antagonist (sort of); as a parallel and contrast to Sarah she and her "children" work so very well. And gives us so many different levels of human-AI interaction.
The terminator who lived with a woman was called Vick (he's the one whose chip memories John and Cameron were watching). But yes, I wonder the same thing about Weaver and Savannah. As for whether John Henry understands the meaning of "friend", not yet, I think, but he understands something of the concept that one invidual can't just be replaced by another, and that death means something different to just switching a machine temporarily off. Compare his reaction the news that Dr. Sherman had died to how he seems worried at the prospect that Catherine Weaver might terminate Ellison; there is definitely a change there.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-27 04:15 pm (UTC)I have been enjoying this season's Weaver-Ellison-Savannah-John Henry storyline immensely, as I have the one for John-Sarah-Cameron. It's fascinating to watch the evolution of 'family' between the human/AI households.
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Date: 2009-03-27 09:27 pm (UTC)So, see you soon? Sunday with my sister in tow, or Monday to ourselves (as she has to work again then)? Got my number still, right?
& :-)
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Date: 2009-03-28 09:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-13 11:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-13 04:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-13 07:02 pm (UTC)