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Before I talk about the awesome episode, I must say that I just went up to look for other people's reactions and stopped reading (will resume after having written this) because apparantly everyone drew exactly the opposite conclusion from the implication of the final scene that I did, which confuses me. So far, three reviews have assumed John (and T-Catherine, and Cameron's chip and John Henry) ended up in a future where John Connor never became leader of the resistance and that is why Derek, Kyle and Allison are alive in their own timeline instead of dead. Whereas I thought both Derek and Kyle looking younger than a) Derek did when first showing up in s1, and b) Kyle did in Sarah's dreams this season, and Derek's "well, kid, looks like you're gonna be famous" line as a rather obvious hint that John while jumping over Judgment Day still arrived several years earlier than any future we've seen so far, and will end up leader of the resistance, sending Kyle back, etc.; that the Watsonian reason why the show pointedly avoided showing us Future!John (the Doylist reason being they didn't want to either cast someone or try age make-up on Thomas Dekker) was the revelation that Future!John is Present!John with only a year or two between them, with the scene where Derek, while wounded, hallucinates Present!John talking to him in the future foreshadowing this.

Be that as it may; for both a season and a possible series finale, sending John into the future while leaving Sarah in the present to fight was an awesome, awesome and game-changing conclusion. Leaving us with terrific constellations: Sarah, Ellison, possibly Will from West Wing (when I saw him in the teaser, I thought: is this season a mini WW cast reunion?), and of course Savannah in the present, and that future where, whichever assumption may be true, the either/or scenario of either machines or humans survive has been irrevocably altered. "Will you join us?" indeed. At first when Cameron didn't tell John the truth about what Catherine Weaver's message meant I thought she was lying because of concern for his safety; I didn't realise she was planning to send herself back to the future.

Which reminds me: am still unclear on how that worked out. I mean, clearly the former Cromartie body is gone, with Cameron's chip (either in it in replacement of the former Cromartie chip, or just carried by it), BUT what about John Henry? I can't quite believe he could have downloaded into that body, too, leaving aside the question about whether Cameron's chip is in that body's head or just carried by it, not after all the emphasis in the previous episode on how all the hardware was necessary to contain him, and how it couldn't be moved. On the other hand, Catherine Weaver asked Ellison whether he'd come with her to find "our boy". (BTW, priceless. Bad Ellison for denying his parental responsibility. Tsk. That's why he gets to pick up Savannah from gymnatistics and go on the run with Sarah now, which while thrilling is also a more dangerous life than working as Catherine's head of security and painting action figures with John Henry.) Also, I want John Henry to be in the future because I rather doubt that even after heaving about what Catherine Weaver was really trying to do, Sarah will abstain from wrecking every machine in that basement. Though PERHAPS the fact Catherine saved her life, and John's, and Ellison's, and clearly had Skynet after her, might persuade her otherwise. Perhaps.

Sarah calls Cameron her daughter towards the priest from the season opener here, and for the first time, it does't sound forced. Catherine refers to John Henry as her son. Then there are the respective other children, John and Savannah, also refered to as "my son" "my daughter", and being let go. The meeting between the two mother figures of the show, both, as it turns out, fighting to protect, was alas short but great. (If I have one regret about how everything turned out with Catherine, it's that her return to the future doesn't allow for fanfic with her and Sarah, but on the other hand, I didn't want her to be destroyed, so hooray for survival!)

The show teased out the viewers with the scene of Cameron and John, while maintaining that mixture of creepy and touching that characterises their relationship; intimacy to Cameron is not sex - though the visual parallel is obvious - but opening her body in a mechanical way and allowing John to feel her heart. Which is cold. As it should be. Oh show. If Cameron's chip IS currently in the John Henry body, I wish we could see a meeting between her and John because I think Gareth Dillahunt could carry it off, and it would be a sublime irony considering a certain rumour why Thomas Dekker left Heroes.

"I love you." It says something about the Connors that such an utterance between mother and son is the emotional climax of the season. Early this season, John figured out it was Cromartie and not his other on the phone because fake!Sarah told him she loved him. They just don't say that to each other, no matter how fiercely they feel it. Except in extremis, and being afraid your mother has cancer definitely counts as one. I also approve that he point blank asked her instead of talking around the subject. Though Sarah never replied; that particular axe is still hanging over her head. ( BTW, regarding John wondering whether Cameron's proximity could have been the cause; there is the episode with her library friend whose cancer returned after going into remission once she started to meet him regularly.) All season, the bond between John and Cameron made her anxious; letting him go in the end to find her was confronting and overcoming that fear, especially since she let him go into that future she always tried to keep him safe from.

If news of the cancellation comes out soon, I'll howl and wail; if news that we get another season against all expectations comes out, Numfar will have nothing on me; but as with, say, the finale of American Gothic, another wonderful show cut down in its prime, this is a season finale which as a series finale I could be happy with as well, managing to be very hopeful without betraying its apocalyptic premise in the slightest. "Will you join us?" Yes. Oh yes.

Date: 2009-04-11 08:35 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I'm very happy to read the first paragraph of your review, because I was feeling pretty alone for a bit when it came to John's future.

And now I'll go read the rest of your review!

Date: 2009-04-11 09:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I know how you feel. I started with my flist reviews and went "err, what?"; I mean, it's not like Derek's "you're gonna be famous" is particularly subtle.

Date: 2009-04-11 12:43 pm (UTC)
ext_6428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] coffeeandink.livejournal.com
I don't think it's impossible that this is different future in which John will become JOHN CONNOR, but it's not the standard John Connor template, because the show established that Future John met Kyle in a SkyNet workcamp and busted out with him. That clearly wasn't a camp. Also, Kyle was in a position of much greater authority than we've ever seen him before, along with Derek's line, which is why I think Kyle is the present leader of the resistance.

Date: 2009-04-11 02:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Oh, it's definitely a timeline we haven't seen yet, and I agree it's likely Kyle is the leader of the resistance. I also think once current day John figures this out he'll be incredibly relieved and hope he's off the being JOHN CONNOR hook for good, but the problem is that I doubt either of the brothers Reese would ever do what John did in other timelines, i.e. work with terminators and propose or accept an alliance with AIs, which is where I see John being forced to rise to prominence in the resistance all over again. As Catherine Weaver said, the two Johns now depend on each other, and I don't think any of the resistance folk would be prepared to accept John Henry as an ally and/or provide shelter if Skynet is now gunning for him, too.

Date: 2009-04-11 09:45 am (UTC)
ext_6531: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
OH MAN! I haven't watched it yet, but I had this mad hope that it would end with Sarah in the future. And now the show is TAUNTING me!

Date: 2009-04-11 11:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
:) I had no idea, though I had occasionally wondered whether any of the sent-back characters were meant to return once their mission was accomplished, so to speak. It was an awesome final reveal.

Date: 2009-04-11 11:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wee-warrior.livejournal.com
Haven't watched yet, but this is giving me hope for a good ending (hopefully just for the season, fingers crossed).

Date: 2009-04-11 02:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Fingers crossed indeed, and I think you'll like the ending.

Date: 2009-04-14 12:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wee-warrior.livejournal.com
Thoroughly loved it. I was genuinely surprised (and happy) to see Derek again. And Allison from Palmdale! And the silent Gang Girl! Also, Catherine Weaver's humour is the best thing, ever. "You don't want to accompany me to help our cyborg son conquer the world? Well, my not-quite daughter finishes PE at 5, could you pick her up?"

Date: 2009-04-14 05:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
*is so thoroughly approving of Catherine Weaver that has icon now*

Date: 2009-04-11 01:42 pm (UTC)
ext_13463: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xterm.livejournal.com
I don't know who these reviewers were... but yeah, it was early on in the resistance. I think that T-Catherine saved him by bringing him to the post-judgment day future is because the real skynet seemed determined to kill John and weirdly I think he's more safe in the future than 'our' time.

They sooooooo have to have another season!! Fox owes it to me for making fun of Canada!! I will take another season of T-SCC as an apology!!!!

Date: 2009-04-11 02:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
When did it make fun of Canada again? But yes, we wants more seaons, precious, yes we do.

(Reviewers: [livejournal.com profile] vonnie_k, [livejournal.com profile] heresluck and [livejournal.com profile] katie_m, and then I decided to get my own thoughts down before trying to work through the other theories anymore.)

T-Catherine might have done at that, and saved Sarah, too, as Sarah is of no interest to Skynet once it realises John isn't with her anymore. (More fool Skynet, as Sarah is its worst enemy.)

Date: 2009-04-11 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seriousfic.livejournal.com
So far, three reviews have assumed John (and T-Catherine, and Cameron's chip and John Henry) ended up in a future where John Connor never became leader of the resistance and that is why Derek, Kyle and Allison are alive in their own timeline instead of dead. Whereas I thought both Derek and Kyle looking younger than a) Derek did when first showing up in s1, and b) Kyle did in Sarah's dreams this season, and Derek's "well, kid, looks like you're gonna be famous" line as a rather obvious hint that John while jumping over Judgment Day still arrived several years earlier than any future we've seen so far, and will end up leader of the resistance, sending Kyle back,

I could see that happening, although as sort of a blend of the two ideas. Because John Connor went into the future, there was no John Connor, so he has to become The John Connor, just so he can go back to the present and fix everything (because the future is much worse without having a John Connor from the get-go). And, obviously, he could bring back any cast members the creators wanted with him. But the only endresult of Future John actually being Present John all along is that A. John wins the war, B. The cast remains long-term fractured between the future and the present, or C. Everyone ends up in the future.

Though it would be kind of cool to see a future where Sarah Connor ended up being leader of the Resistance with her right-hand man Ellison.

Date: 2009-04-11 06:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
It would, though how old would Sarah and Ellison be by 2026? Not that you can't be awesome in your 60s, but if you're on the run all the time, you're at a physical disadvantage there.

Still, I think that IF the show continues, one of the goals will be to change the timelines enough so that Sarah survives Judgment Day in at least one timeline. Not Sarah's goal, obviously. And it would be fascinating to see her redefine her fight now that the immediate threat to John as an incentive is gone, make her mission about protecting humanity in general.

Date: 2009-04-11 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seriousfic.livejournal.com
As long as they're not going out on active combat missions, I think Sarah and Ellison would do fine.

And I could see John having to accept Sarah's death being a theme. A heart-stomping one, but dramatic enough. He can't save Kyle, he can't save Sarah, he has to accept sacrifices to win the chess match.

Date: 2009-04-11 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] veritykindle.livejournal.com
I agree that this is early on in the resistance. (Although it felt to me like Allison (the human that Cameron was based on - her name was Alison, right?) was older than she was in that episode where Cameron has flashbacks to her capture, so... I'm not sure what that meant. I thought for a little while that it actually *was* Cameron infiltrating the camp, and the dog is John Henry, but... well, I guess we'd have to see where that goes. If the show is canceled, I can see justification for fanfic going either way.) And I agree that Derek's "you're going to be famous" seems to imply that John is going to rise in the ranks of the Resistance to be the leader he is meant to be.

But on the other hand, I also think that if the show continues, then there is a good possibility that John will go back to the present at some point, and that he will still become the leader of the Resistance the old way, by living through Judgment Day and being there from the beginning. I don't believe John's move to the future is meant to be as permanent as everyone else seems to think - I think he came to the future for a specific mission, and he will go back when that mission is over. And that might or might not change the future accordingly. (If this is before Kyle Reese was taken to that work camp where he supposedly met John Connor, then it's possible that this resistance cell is just isolated enough that it hasn't heard of him, and Kyle might still meet Future!John later.)

I've always believed that one of the main points of this show is that although the whole series seems to be built around the fact that John Connor will be the "future savior of the human race", the series is not actually about John Connor. It's about all the other people (and machines) around him, and the choices that they make. John might become the leader of the resistance in the future, but he will be that leader because the people around him will choose to make him the leader. And if John is to become the leader of the Resistance, it has to be because he's earned it, not because it's what he was always meant to be.

And that's why I think John's getting sent to the future is important. Whether he stays and actually becomes the leader of the Resistance as he is, or he eventually goes back to Sarah's present to try and help prevent Skynet from taking over, he has to learn to fight alongside everybody else, as an equal, not as a destined future leader. And that's something he can't really get in the past, where he's always going to be the one everybody will die to protect.

We'll have to see, I guess. Again, if the show is canceled, I can see justification for fanfic going either way. *g*

I really, really don't want the show to be canceled, though! I want to see John Connor and Catherine Weaver and John Henry and Cameron in the future, and Sarah Connor and Ellison and Savannah Weaver and Will from the West Wing and baby!Skynet in the past! I want to see what happens next! *flails*

Date: 2009-04-11 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Alison looking older I put down to Summer Glau doing so, but as was pointed out to me below, Alison being a teenager does settle John and Catherine have arrived at least 15-16 years from the present (going by Alison's mother being pregnant with her early this season).

Oh, I agree the show isn't about John Connor, or rather, not about John-as-Messiah but about an ensemble of characters, among them John, who keep making choices that eventually will lead to humanity having a chance in the future.

And that's why I think John's getting sent to the future is important. Whether he stays and actually becomes the leader of the Resistance as he is, or he eventually goes back to Sarah's present to try and help prevent Skynet from taking over, he has to learn to fight alongside everybody else, as an equal, not as a destined future leader. And that's something he can't really get in the past, where he's always going to be the one everybody will die to protect.

Great point. I agree, he can never be equal in the present, but he can in the future. And oh, I want to see what happens with our now divided present and future cast in both time periods, too! Damn it, Fox, relent just once!

BTW, it occurs to me that as there is no need for Catherine to maintain the Catherine Weaver shape in the future, they could hire another actor/actress. Though that would make me sad, as I've really grown to enjoy Shirley Manson in the role. I'm also burning with curiosity about her backstory; whawt made this particular T-10001 go so far beyond her programming as to conclude she needed to create another AI as sophisticated as Skynet but able to live with humans?

Date: 2009-04-12 12:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] veritykindle.livejournal.com
That's a good point about teenage Alison. Of course, I'm not sure what that says about what the Resistance is supposed to be like, and if John Connor's name would have been well known, at that point. More than 10 years after Judgment Day, I guess it could still go either way, in terms of John rising to be the leader of the Resistance as he is, or him going back in time.

I'm also burning with curiosity about her backstory; whawt made this particular T-10001 go so far beyond her programming as to conclude she needed to create another AI as sophisticated as Skynet but able to live with humans?

Well, I've been thinking of that T-1001 as sort of the Kyle Reese to John Henry's John Connor - she went back in time to help create John Henry because John Henry already existed and knew she had to go back to help create him.

But yeah, I would really love to see more of her backstory, and of what John Henry and Cameron are planning to do in the future. And I agree with you that I hope they don't change actors/actresses for the Catherine Weaver T-1001, because I've really liked her as . (I also sort of hope that they don't change actors/actresses for Cameron, either, because I love Summer Glau in that role, but I don't see how they can possibly avoid it.)

Date: 2009-04-11 04:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
I think it's a bit confusing...we don't know when John and Catherine jumped to....we've had them state that Judgement Day (I think in Derek's original timeline) was in four years. And this Derek is an adult, so it can't be too early in the start of the Resistance.

It could also link up to the Terminator Salvation timeline. There's a prequel tie-in novel 'From The Ashes' by Timothy Zahn that I haven't gotten my hands on yet, that's supposed to have John Connor as an ordinary soldier moving up the ranks.

Date: 2009-04-11 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blpurdom.livejournal.com
I think a good gauge for how far into the future they leaped comes from our seeing Alison, which means it has to be at least 16 or 17 years, since we know that, last fall, her mother was still pregnant with her when Damaged!Cameron, thinking she WAS Alison, tried to contact her mother (and inadvertently gave her mother the idea to name the baby "Alison"). So if John and Catherine are now in 2026, that's only three years before Jesse was on the Jimmy Carter with Queeg and the T2 that said "No" to the question of "Will you join us?" So I don't think it WAS very early in the resistance. According to this page (http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_2:_Judgment_Day_(timeline)) Judgment Day in the T:SCC timeline is April 21, 2011, so if John is in 2026 now (because Alison is obviously in her late teens) then the machines took over about 15 years earlier at this point. That isn't to say that John couldn't still become 'the' John Connor, send his father back to impregnate his mother, etc., but it does strongly imply two things: 1) It didn't matter whether the Terminators sent back to kill John succeeded since SOMEONE, in his absence, would take on leadership of the human resistance and fight back against the machines; and 2) In a way, the machines succeeded in preventing John from being the resistance leader (at least from 2011-2026) by interfering in his life, but as per #1, it didn't really matter that they succeeded in doing this because others filled the void and John may still take a major role in leading the human resistance.

Something that was very subtle during the sequence where Weaver was protecting Ellison, John and Sarah from the attack on her office was that a T2 emerged from the wreckage of the device that hurtled through her windows and was ABSORBED INTO HER BODY. Now, is this a way for T2s to conquer other T2s? Or was Weaver really controlling that thing the entire time, calculating that her protecting the others from this attack would lead to their trusting her? In other words, was Weaver attacking John Henry the entire time and placing Savannah in jeopardy to lull them into a false sense of security when they witnessed her protecting them from one of these attacks? It's confusing, because when she destroys the Terminator in the parking garage, it clearly didn't know she wasn't human (which is weird, because John Henry knew in a split second). Perhaps he was just messing up her plan to have that other attack occur in her office, so she could shield the humans and get on their good side.

The other intriguing future possibility is Adult!Savannah. In fact, I would love it if it turns out that Savannah is a key figure in the resistance!

Date: 2009-04-11 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
I'd love adult Savanah as resistance leader or key figure, too. But what was reabsorbed into Weaver's body was her pet eel (the aquarium shattered and the eel fell on the floor, watch the sequence again), which got discussed last episode with the cop.

Good point about Alison's age as key to the year we're in!

Date: 2009-04-11 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blpurdom.livejournal.com
Ah, that makes more sense! Funny, I wonder if that means that the eel was sort of like a spy camera for her, so that she could keep an eye on whatever was going on in the office when she wasn't present. She told more than one person not to tap on the glass, didn't she? (Or so it seems.) I wonder if that gave her a headache (machine version) or something. ;)

Date: 2009-04-12 03:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenak.livejournal.com
Yes, "spy camera" would be my guess. Maybe also a safety precaution; if her main body got injured somehow, reuniting with the eel might have repaired it, much like Cameron kept spare parts of other Terminators around.

Date: 2009-04-11 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estepheia.livejournal.com
A brilliant episode in every way. I really hope there will be a third season.
Epi 21 left me very sad, since I really like Derek, but it was great seeing him again. Awesom.
Will definitely buy this show on DVD and rewatch. Hubby doesn't like it, yet, but I'll try again to get him interested.

I hope Dollhouse doesn't get cancelled. there are not many shows areound that really have their hooks in me...

Date: 2009-04-11 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
I had more or less the same reaction you did to it. I see two intepretations, the one in which they changed time, by sending John to the future, so he negates his leadership role and in a way everything that happened in the past. (which is impossible and would cause a parralle universe or time to collaspe in on itself). Or the other version - which is that he did exactly what he was meant to do all along, travel to the future and become the leader. We just see him before that happened. Derek, Kyle, etc have not told us how or when they began to follow John Connor, after all.

I'm not sure which version they went with. I'm guessing the second, or you sort of negate what happened before. After all - it is John Connor who sent Kyle, Derek and Cameron into the past.


I think John Henry put Cameron's chip in his head - the reason I think this happened is that he built the time travel gateway and only Cameron appeared to know how to do that. Weaver may have but would not have had time to teach John Henry nor do I see her doing that at this stage. She seemed as surprised by his decision to travel to the future as everyone else.

This feels like the creator creating themselves time travel story. Sort of similar to Benjamin Linus in Lost - who inadvertently put into play the very events that caused him to become who he had become. (I love LOST, thank god we get to see that show come to its natural conclusion.) The same thing happens here - John Connor puts into play the events that cause him to become who he becomes, and also, cause John Henry to potentially join him. Catherine Weaver came back through time, it appears to me, to find her own way to defeat skynet. She doesn't join John Connor in the future, instead she goes back in time, and when she's ready, asks Cameron, then John to join her. In that order.

Have they changed time or merely created a similar future, with similar events, but different eventual outcomes?
I may have to buy this baby on DVD some day, it requires a second watching.

As much as I hate to be the harbringer of bad news, I really don't think it will be renewed. This finale has made it almost too expensive to continue, almost as if the writer knew it would be cancelled and decided to go for broke. (Reminds me a bit of Joss Whedon's Not Fade Away ending to Angel in that respect. Oh, we're going to be cancelled because we are too expensive and not bringing in the numbers? Fine, we're going out with a loud not a whimper!!) I've read how the networks have to seriously cut back on costs right now. They've told every tv show to cut down on ensembles, and slash their budgets.

I also miss American Gothic. Another brilliant show, cancelled long before its time.

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